Santharian Development

Okay, well - where to put this? It's a collection of all the ideas I've had about the Glandorian religion and language. I'm trying to see how it works with people here. I need some verification on these things for my entry on Ciosa. I assume it comes here, although it's about religion and language and culture more generally, and is not at the moment entryform or entryready. [cue Newspeak]
Info unentryform unentryready. Uninfoentrylikecomment.[end Newspeak]

Asides aside, here it is.

Latest additions in GREEN
GLANDORIANS

Kingdom of Glandor.
Religion - brother-sister deities, Hanranns (male) and Meanra (female). Meanra - the Sea, the Breath of the Sea which is wind, the Gift of the Sea which is life. Animal is bee. Hanranns - the Land, the Breath of the Land which is language, the Gift of the Land which is strength (mental and physical). Animal is bear.
Fate - not a deity, rather a force of nature personified - beyond the Gods, older than they and stronger - none can question its choice (androgynous) - depicted as a nude being without distinguishing characteristics, though taller like a God. Sometimes not only sexless but faceless.

Social Structure - "Lord" is used as a translation for a noble epithet. "Lords" were originally war heroes, but later any retired military high ranking officer became a "Lord". In practice, this went by bloodlines, as sons of Lords were fast-tracked into high ranks by dint of birth.

Measurements - A "knot" is the smallest Glandorian measurement, between two and three nailsbreadths. Thirteen "knots" form a "lash" (just over a fore); six "lashes" make up a "cord" (about two peds and half a fore) and 22 "cords" make a "cable" (around 45-50 peds). Large-scale measurements are given in terms of a day's travel - at sea, by boat, on land, by foot.

Language - comparable to Tharian, represented by a vaguely Germanic language, as Tharian is represented by English. If Tharian = English, Glandorian = Invented Germanic language. I'm trying to base this on English/German/Danish/Proto-Germanic Wikipedia article

Current vocabulary:
Key -
 EoV = End of Verb (suffix)
BV = Before Verb (separate word)
SoV = Start of Verb (prefix)
AV = After Verb (separate word)
Glandorian   Tharian/English + Notes
Te   Tell
mi   Me - D/O +InD/O pronoun. EoV
Ic   I. BV
Av   Arrive
Ik   Not. EoV
Wi   We
Fraw    Fight
Frawad   Die [in combat]
ij   "Cause to". EoV. E.g. Frawadij - Kill (cause to die) (honourable combat)
bis   Be
'enn   One who [has/had/will/is] [verb]/One who [verb]. EoV
or   Has (auxiliary) e.g. Ic avor - I have arrived
oj   Had (auxiliary) e.g. Dyu teojmi - You had told me
ir   Will (auxiliary) e.g. Han avir - He will arrive
ok   Is (auxiliary) e.g. Mean frawadok - She is dying
Han   He
Mean   She (two syllables - mé-an)
Mah   Man
Meah   Woman
ba   Damage
n   Intensifier. EoV. E.g. ban - kill/destroy. As "kill", opposed to in direct combat (Frawadij)
hau   House
Hwar   Where
Tis   This (these: tisse)
Tah   That (those: tahs)
Vower   Vow
Vow   A vow
Kan   Be able
Mu   My
Lam   Earth (mud, clay etc.) Lam'en - Earthly
ogj   And
obe   Over
alle   All
din   thing
altaewe   Entire, complete, uncorrupted
Brek   Be broken; thus brekik - unbroken; brekij - break
Fekt   Perfect
Theowpt   Service
Elsk   love
Wend   Go
land   Land
merk   Place of origin; thus landmerk -native country
blod   Blood
bloder   Bleed
bloderij   Cut (cause to bleed)
Bloderij'enn   Sword (one who causes to bleed)
enn   Which
ed    -ed *Simple past*. EoV. E.g. Ic frawadijed - I killed (Just "d" after vowel)
skjun   Son
skjan   Daughter
skomm   Male relative
skamm   Female relative
   

Current grammar - Verbs
Verbs such as "to vow" can be formed by adding "er" to the noun; thus Ic vower means I vow
Direct and indirect objects go on the end. They are the same. Mi = me in all English meanings
Subject pronouns precede verb. Separate words.
Ik = not, goes on end of verb. Same with very etc.
Imperative = Infinitive = Present singular
Present plural = Infinitive + h e.g.: I tell = Ic te; we tell = Wi teh
Simple Past = Infinitive + ed/d (d after vowel: thus, Ic vowered - I vowed; Ic ted - I told)
I - Ic                  Me - Mi
You - Dyu               You -
He/She - Han/Mean (two syllables - mé-an)   Him/Her -
We - Wi                  Us -
You -                   You -
They -                   Them -

Bis - To Be:
Bis - 1st and 3rd sing.
Bith - 2nd sing. all plural (not Bish).

Examples:
Bis and 'enn:
Ic bis te'ennor - I am one who has told
Dyu bith av'ennoj - You are one who had arrived

Av'ennor - One who has arrived; thus:
Av'ennors - [The] ones who have arrived = Glandorians who arrived on coast of Manthria with Ciosa
Frawadij'ennoks - The ones who are killing [in  combat]
Bana'ennok - The one who is killing [in a cowardly way]; i.e., someone carrying out an assassination
Fraw'enn - One who fights
Fraw'ennik - One who does not fight

Current grammar - Nouns
"Den - The" is always implied unless real emphasis is required or in formal texts.
Genders - Masculine and feminine. Masculine - Men, boys, things to do with the land, anything in the domain of Hanranns; Feminine - Women, girls, things to do with the sea, anything in the domain of Meanra.
Singular:
Nominative -    Mag      Meag
Accusative -   Mag      Meag
Genitive -    Mag'en      Meag'en
Dative -    Mag      Meag
Plural: Add "s" to end. With genitive, position of "s" is important.
Mags'en - The men's (single object)
Mag'ens - The man's (many objects)
Mags'ens - The men's (many objects)
Genders:
"a" is often a feminine letter, "o" and "u" being masculine. Changing one of these into the other will change a noun to its other gender, e.g. skomm goes to skamm, male relative to female relative

Current grammar - Plurals
Verbs - Add "h" in present; thus "Ic te" - I tell; "Wi teh" - We tell
Nouns - Add "s"; thus "Hau" - House; "Haus" - Houses
General - Add "s"; if this doesn't cause a sound difference, add "se"; thus "Tis" - This; "Tisse" - these

Examples:

Dyu bith frawadij'een bana'eens - You are one who kills [in an honourable way] those [="the ones"] who kill [in a dishonourable way]

Han bis ban'eenir bana'eens - He is one who will assassinate the assassins.

Han bis ba'ennor meag'en hau - He is the one who damaged the woman's house

Tis bis bloderij'enn enn frawadijed mag - This is the sword which has killed the man

And a translation for anyone who cares to try. I think I've got all the grammar and vocab you need

Ic vowerdyee mu landmerk
Obe alle lam'ens dins
Altaewe ogj Brekik ogj Fekt
Theowept mu elsk'en


Do say if it needs changing. Any additions/suggestions also most welcome. Thanks.

Athviaro

I don't think there's much to say with what you've got here. There really doesn't appear to be anything problematic, so I'd suggest you start adding in details and maybe get some comments at that point.

That is, if everyone else agrees with me.

Thanks Andre. This is almost literally just what I've made up on the spot while writing The Founding of Ciosa and Troi Ciosa - a tiny amount of language that I use, a goddess I invented and then invented a counterpart to, fate who I mention, and a few filling out words about what I've thought of on the spot. It was just a Word doc I made to keep track for myself, and thought I should share so I can see if it contradicts itself or someone's plans. Maybe an entry will come, but not for a bit - I need a lot more finalised about things, esp. as Ciosa is only 15 at the moment in his biography, and I need some serious writing, which will entail some work on this.

Ath

A suggestion:

Simply by organizing this into the one or more entries you would need to have it uploaded, will likely get you more focused. As it is, you arranged it arbitrarily (because it was a quick get my ideas onto a word doc game) so that could account for any writer's block you are having.

It's a great start to a unique, neat-sounding language!  I love the feel of it and the relationship to Tharian is very plausible.  Let's see what more you have tucked away in your cortex...

Maybe move the language part of this thread into the language forum, Athviaro. People who are interested in the language side of things might be more likely to see it there, and give you comments. Also, as Alexandre suggests, it might also help you develop more ideas on the Glandorians and their language, if you have different threads for them.

Just another suggestion.

As the Bard says, it is a great start here!

Dek

Thanks for the encouragement and suggestions all. I didn't want to put the five words and single grammar rule in the language forum, but now I've done some actual developing of this in its own right it may be more plausible. Before my computer broke I made a small word doc to note down anything I thought of on the religion, and now I sort of remade that and added a lot more.

@Andre, I'm not having writers block on this, I'm having writers block trying to write a romantic scene in Ciosa's history without sounding corny. I don't know it's doing too well, and my coping strategy was parly to put off the vital bit that might sound corny and, even more, just to translate poems and think of sentences for Glandorian. Sometimes ic ider da ic banirmusel ("I think that I will kill myself" - macabre, but it made me think of a word for "that" (in this meaning) and "myself" and hence "self") because it's so hard. The organisation here is fairly good in the sections (Social Structure, Religion, Vocab, Grammar), I think, but in each section I agree it's a bit of a splurge, or rather a complete splurge. I rearranged the vocab a bit, but I'm going to make an alphabetical by Glandorian and an alphabetical by Tharian list.

And I can't tell you how glad I am this has met with praise from the Bard mainsel! It's always the first hurdle :P.

Ath

When I opened this, I saw that it has lain dormant for over 120 days, which has been hideously lax of me regarding pushing the topic forwards and continuing work; I am also writing this for the second time as I clicked my damn Quick-Favourites  when going to open a new tab, so please excuse any terseness; rewriting is a depressing task, and taking an effort of will to force myself to do.

Back to business, I would like to request permission, as per Ta'lia's request, to continue developing the ancient Glandorians, and at the same time make a commitment not to leave the job botched and restrictive to a future developer. So:

I would like to continue developing the ancient Glandorians, their culture, religion and language. Is this OK with the community, our senior members and our Webmaster?

If so:

1) Has anyone any ideas, proposals or on-site entries to point out or mention so that I don't unintentionally contradict them? and

2) Would anyone like to help with this either completely as a project, or simply by contributing an entry or two? Not that a response or lack of one is binding; this is just a straw poll, not an out-and-out contract-signing along-for-the-ride enlistment.

I expect my plans for these wonderful people may be of interest, so here is the outline of development as I see it.

1) The Deities (including Fate), who need individual entries not necessarily on site, but in a single document, collated from what I have done, expanded and then posted to be critiqued and changed as well as being updated in public view as I develop them further; this will allow for a basis of Glandorian culture - their beliefs are a foundation on which philosophy, worldview and culture will be built.

2) The Glandorian language, which I plan to update, expand and generally make functional. To that end, I need words for practical use, and so if anyone thinks of a word they think I need, or just a word they notice I don't have, please do post in the Glandorian Language (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14820.msg188637.html#msg188637) thread - and by all means, put a suggestion for what word you think Glandorian should have for it, if you can  think of one. If your idea could be a derivative/relative of one or more words already extant (for example, my "sword" as "one which causes to bleed") please have a go at creating it from  those principles - likewise, if you come up with a new way to combine the basics, post your word.

3) Further down the line, the society etc. of the Glandorians - their social structure - presumably a sort of feudalism - and so on.

I would also like to ask whether Ciosa could have reached the coast of Avennoria with say two or even three ships - though three may stretch it - simply to reduce the strain on credulity of packing an invasion force onto a 100-man boat; alternatively, whether the Glandorian boats were much larger than others of the time? Simply an idea; when the other (two) boat(s) saw Ciosa's boat on the rocks, the men and women decided that they would not try to return with just one (two) boat(s). Perhaps this could be a theory of sceptical modern scholars, unwilling to believe that there was only one boat, but without documentary evidence?

And the internet has now cut off. I'll post this tomorrow.

Athviaro

No problem from my side if you want to tackle the Glandorians, Ath. I then recommend in the long run to mainly stick to this tribe to develop various aspects of it, to give it all more depth. And it looks like you already plan to do just that.

As for Ciosa and more ships: Sure, you can have more ships, at least it was a whole expedition he was on, so no problem with that - just make sure that you update possible existing references. And speaking about Ciosa: What about his People entry? Maybe you should finish that one first?

I'm in agreement with Art about seeing Ciosa finished

What Arti said.  :thumbup: