Santharian Development

This grew out of my ramblings on the Glandorians in the Races forum. It was suggested I move it here. I now have vocab. for both Tharian-Glandorian and Glandorian-Tharian in alphabetical order.

Some additions in orange

Principles of the Language (lifted from previous work): comparable to Tharian, represented by a vaguely Germanic language, as Tharian is represented by English. If Tharian = English, Glandorian = Invented Germanic language.

Key:
EoV - End of Verb (suffix)
BV - Before Verb (separate word)
Can be verbed - Can form a verb by adding "er"
Femable - Can be made feminine by changing "o" or "u" to "a"

Current Vocabulary: Tharian-Glandorian

Tharian	Glandorian	Notes
All	Alle
And	Ogj
Arrive	Av
Battle	Wig
Be	Bis	Irregular - Bith not bish
Be able	Kan
Be broken	Brek	Thus brekik - unbroken; brekij - break; brekikij - mend (cause to be unbroken)
Blood	Blod	Can be verbed
Cause to	Ij	EoV
Child	Kith	Also means kid goat
Cut	Bloderij	lit. "cause to bleed"
Damage	Ba
Die	Frawad	In combat
Do.../Will...	Ol	Indicates question. E.g. Dyu frawadol? - Do you fight?
Earth	Lam	As is mud, clay. Lam'en - earthly, mundane
-ed	Ed	*Simple Past* EoV. E.g. Ic frawed - I fought. Just "d" after e
Entire, complete, uncorrupted	Altaewe
Fate	Gjord	Including as a being
Fight	Fraw	Verb
Go	Wend	Verb
Had	Oj	Auxiliary. EoV. E.g. Ic avoj - I had arrived
Has	Or	Auxiliary. EoV. E.g. Ic avor - I have arrived
Hateful	Nitj
Have	Ha	Not auxiliary. Haij - Give (cause to have)
He	Han
Her	Main	Possessive.
His	Hein
House	Hau
I	Ic	BV
Idea	Ide	Can be verbed. Ider - Think
*Intensifier*	(a)n	EoV. E.g. ban - destroy/kill (opposed to frawadij). "an" after consonant.
Is	Ok	Auxiliary. EoV. E.g. Mean frawadok - She is dying
Kid goat	Kith	Also means child
Land	Land	As in country.
Love	Elsk	Can be verbed
(Male) relative	Skjomm	Sometimes without "j". Femable
Man	Mah
Me	Mi	All English meanings
My	Mu
Not	Ik	EoV.
One who [has/had/will/is][verb]/One who [verb]	'enn	EoV.
Over	Obe	In senses of "above" and "more than"
Perfect	Fekt
Place of origin	Merk	Thus "landmerk" -  native land
Protector	Helm
Self	Sel	"Myself" etc. form like English
Service	Theowpt
She	Mean	Two syllables - mé-an
Shield	Wighelm	Lit. "Battle protector"
Son	Skjun	Femable
Strong	Thor
Sword	Bloderij'enn	lit. "One who causes to bleed"
Tell	Te
That	Da	As in "I think that..." "He says that..."
That	Tah	As in "That man". Those = tahs. Those swords - Tahs bloderij'enns
Thing	Din
This	Tis	These = Tisse
Vow	Vow	Can be verbed
War	Wigan	Lit. "Great war"
We	Wi
Where	Hwar	All English meanings
When	Hwen	All English meanings
Which	Enn
Will	Ir	EoV. E.g. Han avir - He will arrive
Wolf	Ulf
Woman	Meah
You	Dyee	Object pronoun. Add "r" for plural.
You	Dyu	Subject pronoun. Add "er" for plural.

Current Vocabulary: Glandorian-Tharian

Glandorian	Tharian	Notes
Alle	All
Altaewe	Entire, complete, uncorrupted
-an	Variant of "-n" intensifier
Av	Arrive
Ba	Damage
Bis	Be	Irregular - Bith not bish
Blod	Blood	Can be verbed
Bloderij	Cut	lit. "cause to bleed"
Bloderij'enn	Sword	lit. "one which causes to bleed"
Brek	Break (as in be broken)	Thus brekik - unbroken, brekij - to break and brekikij - to mend (cause to be unbroken)
Da	That	As in "I think that..." or "He said that..."
Din	Thing
Dyee	You	Object pronoun. EoV. Add "r" for plural.
Dyu	You	Subject pronoun. BV. Add "er" for plural.
Ed	-ed	EoV. *Simple Past*
Elsk	Love	Can be verbed
Enn	Which
'Enn	One who [has/will/is/had] [verb]/One who [verb]	EoV
Fekt	Perfect
Fraw	Fight
Frawad	Die	In combat
Gjord	Fate	Both as word and as name for being
Ha	Have	Not auxiliary. Haij - Give (cause to have)
Han	He
Hau	House
Hein	His
Helm	Protector
Hwar	Where	All English meanings
Hwen	When	All English meanings
Ic	I
Ide	Idea	Can be verbed (ider - think)
Ij	Cause to	EoV.
Ik	Not	EoV.
Ir	Will	Auxiliary. E.g. Han avir -he will arrive
Kan	To be able
Kith	Child, kid goat	Meaning sometimes unclear - eg "Ic frawadij kith" - I kill the child, or I kill the kid goat?
Lam	Earth	As in clay, mud. Lam'en - earthly
Land	Land	As in country
Mah	Man
Main	Her	Possessive
Meah	Woman
Mean	She	Two syllables - mé-an
Merk	Place of origin	Thus landmerk - native country
Mi	Me
Mu	My
N (an after consonant)	*Intensifier*	Intensifier. EoV. Ban - destroy/kill (opposed to frawadij)
Nitj	Hateful
Obe	Over	In senses of "above" and "more than"
Ogj	And
Oj	Had	Auxiliary. EoV. E.g. Dyu avoj - You had arrived
Ok	Is	Auxiliary. EoV. E.g. Mean frawadok - She is dying
Ol	Do.../Will...	EoV. Indicates a question. E.g. Hwen dyu avirol? - When will you arrive?
Or	Has	Auxiliary. EoV. Ic teor - I have told.
Sel	Self	Myself etc. form like English
Skjun	Son	Sometimes without "j". Femable
Skjomm	(Male) relative	Sometimes without "j". Femable
Tah	That	Those: Tahs. Not as in indirect statements.
Te	Tell
Theowpt	Service
Thor	Strong
Tis	This	These: Tisse
Ulf	Wolf
Vow	Vow	Noun. Can be verbed.
Wend	Go	Verb.
Wi	We
Wig	Battle
Wigan	War	Lit. "Great Battle"
Wighelm	Shield	Lit. "Battle protector"

Current grammar - Nouns
"Den - The" is always implied unless real emphasis is required or in formal texts.
Genders - Masculine and feminine. Masculine - Men, boys, things to do with the land, anything in the domain of Hanranns; Feminine - Women, girls, things to do with the sea, anything in the domain of Meanra.
Singular:
Nominative -    Mag      Meag
Accusative -   Mag      Meag
Genitive -    Mag'en      Meag'en
Dative -    Mag      Meag
Plural: Add "s" to end. With genitive, position of "s" is important.
Mags'en - The men's (single object)
Mag'ens - The man's (many objects)
Mags'ens - The men's (many objects)
Genders:
"a" is often a feminine letter, "o" and "u" being masculine. Changing one of these into the other will change a noun to its other gender, e.g. skomm goes to skamm, male relative to female relative.

Current grammar - Verbs
Verbs such as "To Vow" can be formed from the noun by adding "er" to the end, or just "r" after an e
Direct and indirect objects go on the end. They are the same. Mi = me in all English meanings
Subject pronouns precede verb. Separate words.
Ik = not, goes on end of verb. Same with very etc.
Imperative = Infinitive = Present singular
Simple past = Infinitive + ed or d (after vowel; thus Ic aved - I arrived; Ic ted - I told
Present plural = Infinitive + h e.g.: I tell = Ic te; we tell = Wi teh
I - Ic            Me - Mi
You - Dyu            You - Dyee
He/She - Han/Mean (two syllables - mé-an)   Him/Her -
We - Wi            Us -
You - Dyuer         You - Dyeer
They - Ser            Them -

"Ol" means "do" etc. e.g. Dyu haol - Do you have?
With no pronoun, means "anyone" e.g. Haol - Does anyone have?

Bis - To Be:
Bis - 1st and 3rd sing.
Bith - 2nd sing. all plural (not Bish).

Current grammar - Plurals
Usually "s" or "se" if this causes no sound change.
Verbs - Add "h"
Sometimes add "r" or "er"

Suffix Order:
Apply from the back - order changes with meaning - "Ic brekikij" means "mend", but "Ic brekijik" means "I do not break"
Pronouns (mi etc.) go last
"Or", "ok", "ir", "oj", "ed" always come straight after 'enn, never before.

Haol ides? (Does anyone have ideas?)

And my little translation for anyone who cares to try it:

Ic vowerdyee mu landmerk
Obe alle lam'ens dins
Altaewe ogj Brekik ogj Fekt
Theowept mu elsk'en

Anyone know the original patriotic hymn?

Well, the Bard got this. Here's the translation:

I vow to you my homeland
Over all earthly things
Entire and whole and perfect
The service of my love

Here's the original:

I vow to thee my country,
All earthly things above,
Entire, and whole, and perfect,
The service of my love

If anyone wants me to give some more example of how this works in practice, I've made lists of examples just for fun while I was doing this, but deleted them from this post because I thought they were clutter. Just ask and I will provide.

Ath.

I tried to work out your patriotic hymn, but didn't have much success ... though at a guess, the one that goes the land of the free?

Aura from me for what seems to me to be a cool idea.

Dek

No, it's not actually. I don't know how well known a hymn it is, but we sing it at school sometimes (mandatory nightly Chapel). I like it, especially the first verse, of which I've translated the first half. So it's half a verse we have here, and no actual religious connotations as such, just patriotic ones.

Thanks for the aura. I'll check whether I've provided all of the needed Glandorian for the song. I think I have, though some of the words are constructions that are only mentioned in the Notes - e.g., "landmerk" is formed of "land" and "merk" and isn't listed as such, just mentioned in the Notes column.

oh ... knowing what country it is for would be helpful.

Always willing to be helpful, but it doesn't mention any country. I think the words of the original poem were written by an Englishman, but it's not like Jerusalem and open about it. There's no mention of a particular country. I can't really be more open for obvious reasons.

I do believe I've got it:

    I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
    Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love....

A very nice 'translation', considering what you are working with!  Bravo, Ath....

Correct! Well done! "I vow to thee, my country" is the hymn. I hope I managed to get the sense across (nice thing about inventing a language, if I want to say something, I just make it up! Well, at this stage.) There was some paraphrasing - like "earthly things"="things of earth" But well done Bard.

Don't mean to derail the topic here, but there isn't an issue with just sharing lyrics that have to do with God or making a simple expression about Him, is there? I don't think that would cause trouble.

Maybe you could ask Arti to look over it for you before you get too far along with what your doing, Athviaro. A quick bell ring of him directing him to this thread would ensure he approves of it and that it fits with other things. I'm sure there won't be a problem, but better to be safe than sorry. :)

Oh ... and I was meaning more was it aimed at a particular country more so than was a particular country mentioned in the verse. Sorry for not being clearer. :)

Dek

Bellrung. And I think you thought I was Alt. Still...*sigh*  :P :D

Ok, some first comments, Athviaro!

First of all: An aura +1 for trying to make Glandorian a proper language, and for the work that has already gone into it so far.

Secondly, there's something very important you have to look into if you work on Glandorian, and that is to check out the Avennorian Nomenclature thread (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11660.msg136479.html#post_Avennorians). There you find all currently constructed Avennorian names. Also, have a look at the Avennorian Nomenclature section (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/avennorians.htm#Nomenclature) in the entry on the Avennorians.

To make it short: The Glandorians are the predecessors of the Avennorians, which means that Avennorian names are actually based on Glandorian. I have put together lots of typical Avennorian/Glandorian syllables already in my Santharian Names Generator program, in order to be able to construct proper names. This information you find in the entry on the site. If you look at those you'll see that they are heavily influenced by Scandinavian languages, so this should show very much in this language concept as well. Right now this information doesn't seem to have made it in full into your thread here - so make sure to study this and make it part of your current ideas and expand on it.

First, thanks for the aura. Very kind of you.

Second, I've read the Avennorian entry several times and made two Avennorian character for the RP board, so I'm familiar with the nomenclature, and in my vocab lists you'll see skjun - son and skomm - male relative (both "femable" by changing "o" or "u" to "a"), as well as av - arrive, 'enn - one who [verb] and or - has (auxiliary). Unless I'm mistaken, this is all the preexisting Glandorian vocabulary. I'm also aware that the Avennorians are descended from the Glandorians, that the Glandorians are very Scandinavian, and I've done my best to get this across. Glandorian is based on English (te - tell), Danish (elsk - love) and German (alle - all), as wel as Old English (altaewe - entire). I used original Old English texts such as The Wanderer and corruptions of my limited Danish and German, as well as all the resources I could find. Very few of my words are made up with no basis. I'm not going to spend the time I spent on this without at least some assurance that it's in line with the ideas preexisting. In fact, I think the Scandinavian links attracted my love of Germanic languages and Danish heritage, as well as my latent patriotism.

I hope none of this comes across as rude or offhand - I'm typing in a bit of a rush, and I'm completely paranoid about that. I just wanted, essentially, to ask whether you were saying "change what you have - it doesn't fit the image" or "make sure you keep to the image as you continue working". So that's my response. You can ignore the above if you like.

Ath.

Oh, just wanted to say: More of the Scandinavian influences can't hurt, like weave further such syllables into your concept, that sort of thing :)

Only if I disagree with them :evil:

Seriously, I think it depends how you want to come across. If it's just an expression, not intended as stimulus for argument, it's probably OK, but it may be best to keep that out of the main fora - although if you want to discuss it in private with another member, that's your business. Say, for example, you post something like that in a thread in the general area, I may or may not respond, but I'd probably send you a PM if I did, or once it reached a point - as I've said before, I try to leave things like politics (I have very few) and religion (I have none) at the door when I come on Santharia, simply to preserve peace.

That said, I suppose the point is I'm not going to be tearing those apart in public, so if you religious people (I realise how that sounds, but there's no other way to say it) want to, meh. I'll try not to burst your bubble disrupt you.

That said, check with Arti, not me.

Ath