Santharian Development

Organization and General Discussions => General Santharian Discussions => Topic started by: Rayne (Alr) on 14 September 2011, 08:25:52



Title: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 14 September 2011, 08:25:52
As the City of Ximax project nears completion, I am interested in possibly beginning another collaborative entry. In this goal, I'm interested in brainstorming potential projects. I encourage everyone to offer ideas and suggestions. Once we have gathered a number, I will throw up a poll for voting--or, if it seems there is a someone unanimous decision among us, I will begin preparing for the next project.

My ideas are as follows:
  • Academy at Bardavos (this would include the various schools [Tunes, Dreams, Quill, and Colors] as alluded to in the Bardavos entry
  • City of Bardavos (if Artimidor does not mind us building on his entry)
  • City of Voldar (if Artimidor does not mind us building on his entry)
  • New-Santhala (which I may discourage, as this may be an impossibly large project requiring a number of moving parts that I have not yet even conceived of how to coordinate)

Please let me know your ideas, suggestions, concerns, etc., as well as anything I may have overlooked, and I hope there will be many hands to help build the next project!  :heart:


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Pikel on 14 September 2011, 10:19:54
While my opinion might not carry much weight, since my presence here is on/off a lot, I might say that discouraging an entry just because it's so large seems....strange to me. Considering we're here in an attempt to create an entire world, multiple moving parts seem right up our alley. Though: To make the new Santhala entry somewhat easier, you might try splitting said entry up into numerous smaller entries (one entry for each district perhaps?). Also the Ximaxian project was described as near impossible just a few short years ago, so perhaps once the compendiumists come together to actually start this project, perhaps it will seem a lot less imposing.

Just a thought ;)

EDIT: I feel pretty silly. Your organization of the Ximax project seems to be exactly what I suggested for New-Santhala. Maybe I should....read more....


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 14 September 2011, 11:27:27
Haha. Pikel, you are right--discouraging a project because it is large is a bit silly. I think your idea of breaking it down into districts is a good one--though, because of the size, there may need to be simple descriptions for each district, followed by an entry specifically on that district to further break it down. New-Santhala, therefore, may end up being a cluster of entries instead of just one.

I suppose one of my fears with New-Santhala is that so much fore-planning is required long before anything gets put to paper. The entire layout of the city need be planned out so that we can identify how best to partition and organize the city. Because of the size of the project, we would probably require a map made up well ahead of time. The amount of fore-planning make me nervous that the project may experience the same issues as Ximax Academy had early on, where there were pages and pages and pages of discussion, but no real progress toward an entry. Also of note is that a New-Santhala entry was begun many years ago, so this would need to be included. And I would like to have Artimidor involved in this, if possible.

I don't mind beginning planning on New-Santhala, though, if there is interest, and it may be rewarding to work on and complete such a massive project. Do you think New-Santhala should be our next project, Pikel?


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Pikel on 14 September 2011, 13:33:33
Since my schedule is a little busy right now, and i'm not sure how much I could actually add to the project beyond a (hopefully) insightful comment here and there, I really don't think it's my place to choose of what the next team project should consist. I'll see if I can free up some time though and try to contribute a bit more to santharia, and a collaboration like this might be a good place to do so


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Mina on 14 September 2011, 16:22:21
Santhala is certainly a very intimidating project, but it would also be very nice to finally have an entry on it.  I don't think the difficulty will necessarily be with size though.  Being the capital of a giant kingdom will certainly boost its size, but not necessarily beyond that of other big cities unless other factors were involved (which might indeed be the case).  The main difficulty would probably come from its importance, requiring plenty of research and coordinating with what I imagine would be quite a lot of interested people. 

Another possibility is Caelum, one of the major cities of Xaramon and capital of the former Kyranian kingdom, assuming no one has claimed it (I know Dek is interested in the Kyranians, but not whether he has any plans for Caelum itself).  I have mixed feelings about picking it though.  It'd be more familiar to me, being part of Xaramon, but it'd probably also give me even more stress over how little I've done on Xaramon so far.   :buck:

Alternatively, the Caltharian tribe doesn't seem very developed, and I don't think it's had an active developer for a long time.  But I just noticed it has a pretty lengthy draft by Bard Judith here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11948.0.html), so maybe not.  


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 15 September 2011, 00:15:29
Why not build on a historical entry such as F'v'cl'r?

To be honest, the current suggestions do not hold much interest for me. We (almost) finished a city entry with Ximax, so another city entry would seem like a rehash. But F'v'cl'r would enable us to fill in alot of historical details of the races and cosmology that is only hinted at now. It would generate alot of new ideas and directions we've never been in. Also, it doesn't have to necessarily be fact, just a collaboration of theories. It would also generate more ideas and entries to fill in North history.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 15 September 2011, 00:30:30
@Mina
I believe New-Santhala may be quite a bit larger than other cities, if the number of houses on the map is any indication. Ximax is marked on the map by 2 houses. New Santhala in marked by 6, so we can probably estimate that it is three times the size of Ximax, and that its population is closer to 150,000. The capital is also generally overflowing with culture, art, philosophy, science, and research. As it is also the place of governance for the whole of Santharia, as well as residence of the king and his advisors, I would expect a number of government buildings, a host of royal houses, as well as an extensive military. Because of all these factors, I expect this to be a much larger project that Ximax or the Academy--perhaps more of a meta-project, a cluster of entries instead of just one.

I do not mind at all setting up this project, but I want to make sure that there is enough interest in pursing it, and enough people are willing to participate. I could see this easily becoming a multi-year project, and while I expect I will be around (I can never leave Santharia for long), I certainly need the help of others.

I have added Caelum to the growing list. I would discourage against the Caltharian tribe entry, not only because Judith has begun it, but because tribe entries tend to require a more singular vision. However, if you're interested, please let me know and I will certainly add it to the list!


@Azhira
F'v'cl'r would be a very interesting entry to do. With its history and myth, and with the stories that surround it (and haunt it), it would be a very interesting project. My one concern is actually just that--it is so seeped in lore, history, philosophy, and legend that it requires relatively well-read and knowledgeable Santharian developers. I generally prefer these projects to have wider appeal, so that no matter where you are in your Santharian education--whether you are an experienced developer who's been here for ten years or a new developer who just discovered Santharia--you have the opportunity to contribute.

I will add it to the list, but I do have some reservations.


  • Academy at Bardavos
  • City of Bardavos
  • City of Voldar
  • New-Santhala
  • Caelum
  • F'v'cl'r


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Mina on 15 September 2011, 01:53:33
Hmm, I was going to suggest an ecosystem project, since bestiary and herbarium entries are where new developers typically start out, so it should be easier to get them involved.  But then I realised that Jonael already has something like that here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14888.0.html).  It seems to be rather dormant lately though, and there are no doubt plenty of regions that hasn't been taken yet.  Maybe we could find one such region and work on it.

Or, sticking with single-entry projects, how about doing a province?  Manthria is pretty developed, but it doesn't have an entry yet, does it?   


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 15 September 2011, 03:31:50
My worry concerning ecosystems and provinces is that, at their heart, they are more synthesizing projects rather than creation projects--they involve collecting things that have already been created and synthesizing and summarizing them. They're also entries that would involve almost constant edits as things continue to be developed.

I would prefer to do more of a creation project, though if you think that these sorts of synthesizing projects would be good candidates, I can certainly add them to the list. Just give me the word.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Mina on 15 September 2011, 03:40:21
I don't know, I'm just throwing out suggestions as I think of them.   :buck:

I'll leave it to you guys to decide whether they're suitable candidates. 


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 September 2011, 04:14:24
Well, any kind of team project is welcome from my side - though it requires regular presence from various members who'd like to be part of it. There obviously was/were major break(s) with the Ximax entry, though it looks like the project is finally drawing towards an end, and that's great. So priority should be to conclude this one and get it on site.

As for another project: First of all I don't mind at all if someone wants to take a very basic entry I did who knows when and makes something proper out of it ;) So no objections there.

As for a realistic project: Probably Fá'áv'cál'âr sounds the most promising from all the ones that were suggested so far, because it might attract the most people and could lead to a multitude of related, more or less independently developed entries, which form a major package. It would include History, tribal development, some cosmological/religious stuff, creatures and plants of the darker nature, the updated Places entry of course (maybe even a minor entry of a surrounding area) and even People entries in the context. So unlike the Ximax entry I think it would be a more diverse thing to develop and whoever wants to help contributing will learn a good deal about the whole region. So this sounds very interesting to me.

Some other ideas also have something, like the Bardavos entry (could also be used to help write more important Santharian history - we're reaching the time of the culturally important rulers in the Golden Age of Kings), or an entry on Manthria, which is very often referenced and could help us to finally get provincial overviews on our way on important cities and other locations, things like that.

For New-Santhala the time is too early I'd say: We need to do a lot of history still to get there (destruction of Santhala etc.), so anything that's more manageable would be better. Not that Fá'áv'cál'âr would be an easy project, but it's still more accessible for those interested I assume. There's some preliminary work done for the elven empire already, e.g. we have an entry already, but it needs more work, that's for sure.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 15 September 2011, 04:34:23
Haha--well, I would eventually like to get your vote, Mina! Your thorough research skills and attention to detail, along with your sizable knowledge on Santharia and medieval life, have proved invaluable in past projects. I would like to have your assistance on the next project, if you are able!


I was hoping you might come give your opinion, Artimidor!

I do apologize that the Ximax entry has taken so much time; I will, of course, readily admit that its delay was purely on my head. For some years its been difficult to hit the right pace with my participation here, but I think I may have found it.

My fears of F'v'cl'r remain, but I do admit that it does inspire a lot of appeal. For my part, I have always been inspired by the haunting and frightening sorrow of the place. I read Dala's story about the Bone Queen when I first joined, and it stays with me still, after all these years. However, it's important to note that F'v'cl'r is one entry. While it may sharpen our focus for the creation and revision of other entries, it would itself remain singular. I hope that others would be motivated, as Dek was by Ximax with his Boyzinna Hall, to create related entries, but I'm not sure if this would happen or not.

I will keep Bardavos and F'v'cl'r on the list, though, and add Marcogg.



  • Academy at Bardavos
  • City of Bardavos
  • City of Voldar
  • New-Santhala
  • Caelum
  • F'v'cl'r
  • Marcogg


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Mina on 15 September 2011, 04:50:35
Doesn't Marcogg already have a fairly up-to-date entry?  It seems quite detailed, though the population is oddly small.  

Quote
Haha--well, I would eventually like to get your vote, Mina! Your thorough research skills and attention to detail, along with your sizable knowledge on Santharia and medieval life, have proved invaluable in past projects. I would like to have your assistance on the next project, if you are able!
Thanks.  :) I'll try to help as much as I can, but most of these are areas that are rather unfamiliar to me, so I'm not sure how useful I will be. 


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 September 2011, 04:58:36
Ooops... Meant Manthria of course, the province entry.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 15 September 2011, 05:11:49
I'll add it, but for reasons previously mention, would discourage an entry of this type, since it involves summary and synthesizing more than creation. For those who are new to Santharia and don't know where to go or where to start, entries like these can be daunting and intimidating. I would prefer these projects be something Santharian developers of all experience levels can contribute to...


  • Academy at Bardavos
  • City of Bardavos
  • City of Voldar
  • New-Santhala
  • Caelum
  • F'v'cl'r
  • Manthria


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 15 September 2011, 06:27:18
after Ximax I'm going to take a break from group projects and try to catch up on the backlog of my own work. I believe I did post somewhere recently that I was going to focus more on finishing off my existing entries rather than starting new entries.

Besides, none of those really capture my interest, especially not F'v'cl'r.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 15 September 2011, 12:00:21
My own suggestion would be the Academy of Bardavos as a sort of run-up to the city itself, much like the Academy of Ximax preceded the City of Ximax. If you tried to write Bardavos without having the Academy slotted in fully, there might be a big blank space you've got to go back and fill.

I likewise have no interest in Fa'av'cal'ar


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 15 September 2011, 22:23:32
You both single out F'v'cl'r as uninteresting. Any particular reason?


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 16 September 2011, 05:46:55
I personally wouldn't enjoy doing it, Azhira ... no other reason than that. What would be the point of me getting involved in developing something if I didn't have any personal interest in developing it? I think it would be worse for me to say 'yeah, I'll do that' and hate every second of working on it, as it would no doubt see me starting it and not finishing it, and thus letting down the team. Better, I think for me to state it up front so there aren't any expectations from others. I also point out the following in my post, Azhira:

Quote
after Ximax I'm going to take a break from group projects and try to catch up on the backlog of my own work.

and

Quote
Besides, none of those really capture my interest

I guess I used F'v'cl'r as an example, of a lack of interest in being involved in developing any of those places. Besides, it has too many apostrophes and accents in the name. :D

I actually don't think that either Valan or myself stated it wouldn't be an interesting entry ... but rather that we weren't interested in being involved in developing it.

Ah yes ... and from Artimidor ...

@Dek: To make it short: It's always better in my point of view to finish something you started before you move on to new things. So always try to favour that before you seriously start pursuing new ideas.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 16 September 2011, 23:03:49
Hi all...
good to see a new project started! I cant be part of it though, need to finish/start other entries first (Moon)

I ask you though, to take Bardavos from the list, because I've got a lot of stuff already and even if I would skip most, I would need time for the project nevertheless, because it sits deep in my realm and has therefore a lot of connections. The academy - I don't know. I have no big ideas yet, only that it should not be in one place like Ximax, but many buildings distributed all over Bardavos. So it might not be a good idea either. Maybe that could be the project after the next one? :)

There are surely many other interesting places to describe, what about Ishmarin? Has two houses also. However, a lot of research has to be done to build up something up there.

Another idea might be, to write up the wardens (three?) in the Rimmerings Ring, to think about their history and bind them together somehow.

What about Northern Sarvonia, Worldquest, Daroth? (Not Barsalon please ;) ), Silven is not possible, if Dek wants to do own things.

An idea would be also, to take the islands of Ram and tie them to Santharia, develop all from special (?) fauna and flora to the two cites. That might be a longer project though. In the end, the single entries might be written by one person, as a part of a city now, but they need a cooperation and a lot of pre-thoughts what to put there first also.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 September 2011, 23:28:55
Well, the project doesn't necessarily need to be a Place entry, or?

It could also be a historical project where we take the rough timeline we've put together here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,10783.0.html) and try to make proper events out of all that (as I did so far until 200 a.S.). This has the advantage that people involved will get to know Santharian history much better because they have to read up on the current timeline and then see how they could help here and there with adding further important events. Various people could suggest a multitude of events, some could focus on a certain character in history (e.g. a king/queen) or an order/group of people that has a major importance etc.

We'd fill valuable gaps that way, and there aren't whole entries required, and whoever chips in helps to really build Santharian history and learns it in the same process. :)


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 17 September 2011, 05:51:51
If I may comment in sort of a meta way, there seem to be a number of issues arising with my attempts to begin another project at this time:

  • A couple people--Dek and Talia--have mentioned that they will not be able to participate in the next project. They have traditionally been two of my most active and prolific collaborators. That they will be unable to participate naturally makes me question whether there is enough interest to begin a project at this time.
  • There doesn't seem to be enough interest in any one project, and many of the most eligible options, or those with the widest appeal, have been taken off the table.

I suppose my question to the team is--if we set a date for a few months from now as a 'start date', would that give everyone enough time to finish up their current projects and prepare for a group project, which could be decided at few weeks before? And until then collect project ideas? Or does anyone have any other ideas?

Until I'm certain we have enough people to move things forward, perhaps I might work with you, Artimidor, on history?


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 17 September 2011, 07:20:50
Not to rain on any parades but I think the scope of the Isles of Ram idea is too broad for a project like this. We saw the problems with an entry the size of Ximax, to expand the scale beyond that as far as what needs to be developed is begging for something to go wrong or parts to get dropped by people.

Art's suggestion of a history entry is quite good though.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Seeker on 17 September 2011, 08:02:36
I am always willing and available for illustrations when the time comes for that.  In the meantime I will let all you writers figure out what your going to do.  :grin:

Nice to be an artist sometimes.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 17 September 2011, 10:40:03
Based on the rate at which I complete my own works of interest, I'd say 'a few months' wouldn't be enough time for me. :D

I'm not interested in starting/being involved in a group project at the moment. Just because I'm not interested in being involved in one, doesn't mean one can't go ahead. However what Rayne says is true ... if there isn't enough interest/people to sign up for the group project, putting it off might be a good idea.

Even if I was interested, I don't have the time for doing so. Me taking time on getting my own things finished is fine with me, but having others relying on me to complete things for a group project (particularly when work is demanding more and more time from me) and me being unable to meet deadlines, puts me under pressure, pressure which I can do without for the foreseeable future.

Rayne, when you refer to 'a few months' around when are you looking at for a start date? November/December/January? March/April? June/July? November is NaNoWriMo for me. December/January are our summer holidays here ... and I'll be gone for at least some of it. June/July - end of financial year and my trip to Fiji for my cousin's wedding falls during this time ... ie not a good time for me.

Not being interested/able to be involved in such a group project doesn't mean I don't support the concept of more group projects, it simply means I can't be involved in it.

I hope that makes sense :D


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 17 September 2011, 12:06:58
When I said "a few months," I was thinking early 2012, but I'm fairly flexible.


I feel like the perception of group projects isn't at all what I had intended to foster. Individual entries can be pages and pages long and involve copious amounts of research. My intention with group projects was to alleviate a lot of that workload while allowing people to still develop.

These projects were meant to cater to the collaborators. Your participation might just be offering a comment, or participating in some aspect of the discussion, or writing a couple paragraphs about a borough. And unlike regular entries, where you were committed to writing the entire thing, you could just write a piece if you wished, or more if you desired. In short, the value of group projects, besides the obvious melding of minds, was their flexibility for the developers involved, the option to choose the type and amount of participation based on your interest and time.


The good part about these group projects is that, if need be, they may continue into the long-term. I could very well start a group project now that, similar to the Ximax project, progresses rather slowly. However, despite the time and my (regretted) inactivity, the entry is still progressing. If this is indicative of group projects in a general sense, perhaps there isn't as much harm in starting one now, even if participation is low. I would, however, like to begin a project that people won't mind--nay, would eagerly--coming back to.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 20 September 2011, 01:03:35
I am ready to collaborate on any subject as long as it has scary, creepy stuff in it. That is the best fuel for my wildly dark imagination.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 20 September 2011, 02:04:13
Haha--I am always glad to have you, Azhira. I should hope that, regardless of the project, you would be able to add a little creepiness. After all, no entry is complete without a little bit of dark mystery, right?  ;)

Perhaps I should ask the group as a whole: Who would be able/willing to participate in a group project?


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Shabakuk Zeborius Anfang on 20 September 2011, 05:17:10
*Sigh* I am willing, but not able. Alas! I will be extremely busy until December at least, and need to pick my Santharian projects carefully, lest I take on too much, which would lead to frustration for myself and others.

I may permit myself to say, though, that I admire the way you all have collaborated to write the Ximax entry. It's a fabulous piece of world building.


Title: Re: Next Collaborative Project - Suggestions
Post by: Rayne (Alr) on 20 September 2011, 12:32:15
I think your melody, Shabakuk, is the same as many others', the collection of which forms a sad harmony for the possibility of a group project right now (though I'm glad to see so many working so hard for the Dream!). However, perhaps they may eventually conclude, or at least fade a little, and we can begin to compose an entry all together.

I will do what I can to assist others with their projects, time permitting (unfortunately I have something of a restrictive schedule). If I can help free others' time and minimize the entries-in-waiting, perhaps we can soon move upon these projects again.  :heart: