Santharian Development

Organization and General Discussions => Development Master Plans => Topic started by: Rayne (Alır) on 09 November 2011, 12:22:17



Title: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 09 November 2011, 12:22:17
The thread for discussing development of Vardınn (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,15119.0.html)!

My task is of course to begin to outline the duchies--establishing name, size, and location, and basing these duchies, if possible, on the unfolding history of the region. Naturally there will be a lot of guesswork on my part, and I encourage any following to correct me at any step. Establishing duchies will, I think, flow neatly into politics and the recent situation.

I would like to also get places developed. I will need to revisit some of the older entries, such as the entry of Vontron, and see if improvement might need to be made, but this is not an immediate priority, given that Vardınn has quite a great deal left to be written!

I will also work on revisiting tribes and seeing what may need to be expanded or altered, as well as the best means to accomplish this.

A long term project, but I'm sure well worth it. I appreciate any advice or feedback anyone might have.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 November 2011, 04:26:20
Wow! That's quite a start of a new project with everything you've put together there, Rayne!  :thumbup: Aura +1 at any rate for all the time you've already put into it!

Vardınn sounds like a great province to tackle as a team project after Manthria as the first Santharian province, where indeed a lot of development has happened after the map was put together. There should have been more development on major towns there, though, as I feel that getting the central towns done is crucial for the region, so maybe in Vardınn we'll look more into that. This also includes major elven, dwarven or halfling towns. Vardınn with its Erpheronian roots is definitely one of the regions which are very traditionally medieval, the way you had it in Europe back in the middle ages. Power is centered around the military, the classes system is very predominant here, people are proud, bordering on hubris, there's lots of intrigue and fight for power - at least it was that way in the olden days. Milkengrad is also included in the mix, and Curgan provided good old Greek battles and tragedy with that city as well, so it fits right in. In short: perfect conditions for all kinds of heroic myths, lots of lore, stories about expansion to new shores and founding of new colonies - all those things have their cradle here. And speaking about elves: The Thaelon is one of the most fascinating elven forests - all you need to let fantasy reign. - With other words: A very interesting region for me as well!

Some first notes:

- Voldar is listed as "completed" in your list, Rayne, but it is a very basic entry at the moment, not even made with the new design (no entry sections etc.) - so it should be marked as "should be revised".

- You offer a file called "Vardınn history" for download, but it doesn't have any ending, and I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. Doesn't open properly regardless how I rename it.

- Personally I think that the detailed map should be done first, at least the concept. By looking at the map a lot of new ideas will come and can still be integrated. But I would suggest that those interested in helping this develop should take a part of the monster map and sketch things they'd like to have on it, so that we can put together a rough development map. I'd like to work on another map similar to Manthria - at least in the long run, and I'd be happy to start with it when I have the information.

- As far as organization is concerned I'd also finally like to get provinces overviews done, similar to overviews of beasts. Would look like this: The sections of the overview entries would comprise a) capital b) cities c) towns d) villages e) other places of interest, and each element listed would have the number of inhabitants mentioned, size, duchy, and the regular overview stuff. Cool would be to have the map displayed on top of the entry and by clicking on a town you'd scroll down to the description, with the back arrow you could go back etc. The picture of the place would be shown to the left as in all other overviews, maybe with the difference that in case the place is not developed we'd have an empty circle, and if it is in fact developed, yet we don't have a picture we'd change the colour somewhat. If a place doesn't even have a short description, they'd be listed as "Further settlements" in the appropriate section. This could BTW also be done in the other overview. That way it would work as some sort of LED and we'd see immediately what is already done and what isn't. Well, these are my rough ideas anyway.

I'd like to try this out maybe first with the Manthrian province, and then we could move to the Vardınn province. What do you say?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 November 2011, 04:43:30
BTW: Talking about the map on top of these overviews - here's an example (http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex4/imagepanner.htm) how I could imagine this to work - by allowing the viewer zoom in and out to view locations and then clicking on the spot. I don't know if tooltip texts and linking will be possible in a picture where this script is used, but I hope so - it would look pretty cool methinks...


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Seeker on 10 November 2011, 08:24:00
Rayne, I am here to support you anytime you would like a picture.  Let me know if you have any requests for the region.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 10 November 2011, 08:49:08
Ditto.

I wonder if we have a heron entry?  Would love to write it just so I can do a marsh picture with a great greyish-blue bird stalking through it....


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 10 November 2011, 14:08:19
I've come down with an awful cold, so forgive me if my response sounds a little drowsy.


Artimidor
Thank you! I've spent quite a long time--weeks/months--compiling all the information during my relatively exiguous free time. Before beginning this project, I thought it best to gain a good understanding of what we had and what we didn't, and try to present my findings in a way that not only made clear opportunities for development, but also make it relatively easy to begin to take advantage of those opportunities.

MAP: I agree that a detailed map should be a top priority. Unfortunately, I'm not necessarily savvy enough to create one on my own, so your offer is very appreciated!. I admit, too, that I do not  necessarily have a good idea of the detailed features. However, if I looked at the map, I could probably begin to develop this. I also like the idea of an "interactive" map. Manthria has the guinea pig works for me! I don't mind waiting.

OLD ENTRIES: You are also correct regarding the need to revise many of the entries. I will begin to go through and assess what entries may require a dusting off and fattening up!

SETTLEMENTS: I'm still trying to decide how to break up the province into duchies. Mina did such a great job with the Xaramon duchies--but I'm still scouring history and battles to try to guess where the borders for each duchy might fall. This may make it easier to identify what cities are duchy-capitals, so to speak, and what duchies need further development.

I've also done some loose brainstorming on the main settlement of the Aellenrhim elves based on some resent trips I've taken. There are a number of places I would like to hand a hand in developing; this is certainly one. I would love to have a group project to develop the city of Voldar, but with activity the way it's been, this may prove difficult.

HISTORY: I've sent you the file over email. Let me know if you are able to open this!


Seeker:
Thank you for the offer! You do such amazing artwork; I would love if your travels took you down to Vardınn. I can't think of anything in particular in particular in terms of pictures... perhaps a landscape with one of our places? I admit, I'm so grateful simply to have pictures done that I've never thought of what I might request had one been offered!


Judith:
I should love to have some heron for the province! I had never thought of this. While there are no marshlands apparent in the province, I admit that my perception of the Heath of Jernais is of an occasionally marshy place. I read the Hound of the Baskervilles not long ago and was ensorcelled by the view of heath/moors as peaceful almost to the level of eerie-ness. This might be a perfect habitat for your heron!


Title: Re: Vardýnn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 November 2011, 15:36:18
You'll get another aura soon for your efforts, Rayne! :)

As for the Vardýnn history document you sent: It's a DOCX file, a next generation Office XML based document, which a regular Office installation cannot read. So much about compatibility... :lol: Anyway, just save it with "Save As..." and then select the regular DOC type - then you can open it with every program, which can read a standard DOC-file. :)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 10 November 2011, 22:30:59
Quote
SETTLEMENTS: I'm still trying to decide how to break up the province into duchies. Mina did such a great job with the Xaramon duchies--but I'm still scouring history and battles to try to guess where the borders for each duchy might fall. This may make it easier to identify what cities are duchy-capitals, so to speak, and what duchies need further development.
Mostly, I went with geography.  That was partially because there wasn't much history at the time, but geography is generally quite important in determining borders too.  After a quick look at the Centoraurian entry, I'd suggest the following areas for duchies:

  • Helcrah (between the lakes and the Goltherion forest)
  • Aurora Fields, including Salsair
  • that area west of the Aurora Fields (Thyslan, Crow Hills, and their surroundings)
  • Milkengrad, and the rest of the island it's on

There's some historical basis for them, from the entry, and they seem to more or less make sense geographically too.  I didn't check the more recent histories, but I don't think there were any significant changes. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 November 2011, 04:32:28
To give it a start with the map approach I've prepared a cut of the Vardınn province from our monster map (=rough Santharian map blown up to match the Manthrian map ratio). So now I have it at hand when I'll start with a more detailed map.

I took that map and sketched the province's borders and put in all the key towns, forests, heaths etc. Now taking into account that the borders of the provinces were indeed made basically to reflect geographical ones, I've also tried to use that approach with a duchies proposal. It's partly the way Mina suggested as well. At the moment Milkengrad BTW is completely separate, though, as I thought it is it's own thing more or less, but of course this could still be changed if needed. This is not set in stone, just a basic map to discuss about it.

So with this proposal we'd have 7 duchies at the moment - as I've noticed I forgot number 3... :lol: Let me know what you think.

The plan would be to decide first
a) on the final borders, then
b) give these duchies their names and
c) hand out monster sized maps of single duchies to people interested in them, so that they can place settlements, streams, hills and other geographical ideas on them (just mark that somehow with a painting program).
d) After that I'd collect these suggestions and try to work on the detailed map.

Ok, so here's the map:

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn_duchies.jpg)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 11 November 2011, 08:15:11
The Thaelon should probably be a styrcal, just a thought.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 11 November 2011, 11:41:14
And of course the dwarves claim the area beneath the High (and Low) Fores, but they don't pay a lot of attention to the humans running around on the Surface.... :)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 11 November 2011, 12:02:33
Wonderful!

I actually like keeping Milkengrad more or less its own duchy (perhaps the duchy might also be named Milkengrad). I think it might be best if there were only one duchy bordering Enthronia. In all my historical research, there was only one named duchy--that of Ancyros, which bordered Enthronia and was often fought over by Erpheronians and Caltharians. The only way I could conceive of this duchy was to allow it to wholly border the Cylian River separating the two provinces... but perhaps this is a rather heavy-handed way to go about it. What do you think?

I couldn't find names for some of Vardynn's islands--specifically the island just west of the Crow Hills, the island housing Witchking's Cliff, and the two islands just to the north of it. Do you know if there are names for these four islands of as yet?

Also, is the Cylian River considered part of Vardynn or part of Enthronia?

I will beginning brainstorming duchy names. I have uploaded a .doc of the history in the Master Plan thread on the history post. Please let me know if this is accessible! Thank you, Artimidor!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 11 November 2011, 15:28:18
I think your idea for Ancyros makes sense.  Does it include Alvang?  

Cylian River is the border between Vardynn and Enthronia; I don't think we need to worry too much about which it belongs to.  

Had a look at the history thread we referenced for Ximax's history and came up with a new list.  

  • Ancyros
  • Jernais (city + Heath)
  • Helcrah
  • Aurora, including Cemphiria (ceded to Centoraurians in 1503)
  • Thysland?  (the Thyslan area; name from the Centoraurian entry)
  • Milkengrad
  • (can't think of a name) the northwestern islands
  • Voldar (maybe with Westhron?)
  • Bolder (Stycal)
  • Thaelon (Stycal)

The Goltherlon and the southern parts of the High Fores have been left out because I'm not quite sure what to do with them.  The High Fores just don't seem to appear in history much.  The simple solution would be to make it part of Helcrah, I guess.  The Goltherlon was abandoned by the Goltherrhim elves long before the founding of Santharia, so it won't be a Stycal.  It doesn't seem to fit very nicely into the existing duchies, except maybe Helcrah.  On the other hand, it's been inhabited by the Golgnomes for the past 1000 years or so, so perhaps it has something similar to Stycal status (but with a different name)?  

Edit: Had a few more ideas. 

Cemphiria could perhaps be grouped with the Heath of Jernais, instead of the Aurora Fields.  The Heath of Jernais was ceded to the Centoraurians at the same time as Cemphiria was, and it would make sense for them to be grouped together.  No word on whether the City of Jernais was included; it could just as easily be part of Ancyros, although having the Heath of Jernais and the City of Jernais belonging to different political subdivisions might seem a little odd. 

Milkengrad and Voldar could perhaps be free cities.  Neither of them have that much land outside of the cities, especially Milkengrad. 

Alternatively, for Voldar, perhaps the Voldar region (the part surrounded by Paragonj island, and the Thaelon and Bolder forests) could be the presonal domain of the Thane, rather than a duchy.  Assuming that the Thane of Vardynn is a hereditary position, it would make sense for it to own some land too. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 12 November 2011, 03:12:49
Some notes and a map revision ahead!

- Yes, the History document opens now - all fine!

- No name known for the island with Witchking's cliff.

- The Cylian river basically marks the border between Enthronia and Vardınn - now also reflected in my latest map version, see below.

- I've also made the whole Thaelon a Stycál (elven territory) and the same with the Bolder, following Valan's and Mina's suggestions.

- The Jernais Duchy now stretched from Cemphiria to Ephirn's lake, it also inlcudes the Twinnean Peaks.

- The Goltherlon elves are now extinct, so there's no need for a Stycál there, but that corner with the Hèckra volcano and Alvang is known for a lot of bad things that happened, so I've put that all together. It should probably be one of the more neglected lands, no big industry there, myth and lore land, gnomes could thrive there however, with volcanic ashes as ingredients for their experiments, that sort of thing.

- The dwarves I thought would maybe think they're better off with a human duchy than the Alvang duchy, I've put them into the Aurora one.

- Finally I thought Voldar should have more land, now that we've cut land in the east and north, so I added the islands to the west. We still have land in that region available, so it could as well be part of Voldar, and Accam and Westhron could become larger key towns. We need some major ports anyway, as the Erpheronians headed off from there to the west and north to build new colonies.

- Churican and Witchking's Cliff island form one duchy, which ii big enough methinks. These islands probably are similar, the Ireland of Santharia.

Ok, here's my suggestion on a modifed map:

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn_duchies2.jpg)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 12 November 2011, 09:06:55
I love how the map is coming along! My thanks to all the great feedback, and of course to Artimidor, who has been so kind and patient with updating the duchy borders...

The duchy partitions looks great! My only suggestion is that perhaps the easternmost duchies might be altered such that the duchy that includes the Ancytharian Sea might also border Enthronia. This duchy has already been given a name in the annals of history--Ancyros--whose etymology I believed is tied to the physical features it contains.

Perhaps Ancyros might include Alvang, Goltherlon, Heckra, the Twinnean Peaks and Erphirn's Lake and another yet-unnamed duchy might include Jernais, the Heath of Jernais, and Cemphiria? Ancyros was noted for having rich resources, though this makes the Jernais duchy a bit minuscule... any ideas?



Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 12 November 2011, 14:08:27
Maybe it could be referred to as a 'size challenged' duchy or a 'duchette' ... and they could produce bags that they call d(o)uchebags ... and it could be a point of contention between scholars as to whether it should be considered a duchy or not.

PS This post shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone. :)

Dek


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 12 November 2011, 16:55:59
@Rayne: Yes, the Ancyros thing makes sense, so it should definitely be reflected in the map. I've done so now in this version, expanding Ancyros and adjusted the Jernais borders. I also made the High Fores an own dwarven region, so that the Aurora duchy is more compact. What do you think?

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn_duchies3.jpg)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 12 November 2011, 21:03:31
The Helcrani live there too (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/helcrani.htm#Territory), so it's not entirely Dwarven.  And, like Bard Judith said, the Dwarves probably aren't very involved with what goes on at the surface.  The surface population is probably mostly Caltharian and Helcrani.  It'd probably also look nicer if the border with the Aurora duchy is slightly further west, at the Aerelian Lakes.  It looks a little arbitrary right now. 

There's actually quite a lot of space between the Thaelon and Bolder forests.  Perhaps, instead of the two stycal bordering each other, some of that land could be given to Voldar, connecting it to Nermeran? 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 13 November 2011, 03:32:17
Deklitch, you are too funny!  :heart:

Thank you for producing another map, Artimidor! You are so patient to go through all these versions and variations with us.

I support Mina's assessments. Perhaps the duchy including the High Fores might also steal one of the Aerelian Lakes--the one furthest west (Melágria) and run against the border of the Aurora plains?

I believe the border between the duchy including the high fores and that of Ancyros can probably meet at the Aelchraem River flowing down from the High Fores into the Ancytharian Sea, though this is more of an observation more than a correction, since drawing straight lines in paint programs can be somewhat difficult!

I love the way the province's duchies are turning out! Soon we shall be in the naming stage~!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 13 November 2011, 03:35:44
Just made the map as you typed, Rayne, so the border doesn't run across the river in this version, but the rest should be as discusssed:

I've now made the High Fores part of the Aurora duchy, which also comprises all Aerelian lakes, and the Voldar duchy is connected to Nermeran. Looks like this:

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn_duchies4.jpg)

How does that look?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 13 November 2011, 03:56:14
Is it possible to see a version exactly like the map you have except that the Aurora duchy is split into two, with a border running from near the based of Heckra along the Aurora plains and between Melágria (the lake farthest to the west) and the other lakes comprising the Aerelian Lakes? To compare?

I do like the new borders of the Voldar duchy! Hopefully this will make for easy, positive relations with Nyermeran.

I believe we still need names for some of our islands... Does anyone have any ideas?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 13 November 2011, 04:30:40
I think you meant the lake furthest to the east

Which of the islands currently have names, and which don't?  I'm a little confused. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 13 November 2011, 05:29:01
Ah! You're right--east, not west. Thank you, Mina!

The unnamed islands were brought up from a previous post in the thread. In short, there are four islands whose names I have not been able to identify. They are the island housing Witch King's Cliff, the two islands just south of this island, and the island just west of the Crow Hills. Have you seen the names of these islands mentioned anywhere in the annals of Santharia, Mina?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 13 November 2011, 16:43:26
Here's the version you spoke of, Rayne - looks a bit weird, though, with just one lake being part of the eastern duchy...

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn_duchies5.jpg)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 13 November 2011, 18:20:56
This map (http://stuff.santharia.com/curgan/milkengrad_map2.jpg) by Curgan might be of some interest, especially when making the large version of the province map. 

Quote
They are the island housing Witch King's Cliff,
In your Churican entry, you called it Witchking Isle.  I guess that works.  If anyone comes up with a better name, maybe it could be kept as a nickname or something. 

Quote
the two islands just south of this island, and the island just west of the Crow Hills.
You mean north?  I don't recall seeing any names for them, but I'm not very familiar with that area anyway. 

Do we have names for the island that Westhron is located on, and the island between Accam and Milkengrad? 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 14 November 2011, 02:28:07
Artimidor-- Yes, I suppose you're right. Mina, what are your thoughts of the maps?

I'm getting my directions all confused lately! It must be this cold. I suppose Witchking Isle is all right for now. The Island between Milkengrad's Isle (Efirhal) and the Isle/Peninsula of Paragonj is Midlanir. I suppose I hadn't considered Westron to be on an isle, but you are right. I don't believe there is a name for that isle.

And just to make sure, we don't consider the land on which Cemphiria is on to be an island, correct?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 14 November 2011, 03:25:37
Well, I guess it could technically count as a river island.  But it's big enough that it might not be perceived as being an island.  After all, Paragonj is even more island-like, and it gets called a peninsula. 

The latest map seem alright to me.  If the lake looks weird being in a different duchy, I guess it could be put back in the Aurora duchy.  It doesn't seem that strange to me though. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 14 November 2011, 06:22:29
Well, I guess it could technically count as a river island.  But it's big enough that it might not be perceived as being an island.  After all, Paragonj is even more island-like, and it gets called a peninsula. 

And of course there is also the Peninsula of Kr'uul in Northern Sarvonia which is really an island ... I suggested in 8WB that it was a point of debate between scholars (with nothing better to do with their time, probably) as to whether it should be an island or a peninsula ... maybe the argument could extend to other islands around the place? Much the same way as astronomers spent time arguing about whether Pluto was a planet or a dwarf planet (size challenged planet please ... we really DON'T want to upset the God of the Roman underworld, do we?) :)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2011, 04:16:24
Ok, next version... This time the names of the mentioned islands were added (inlcuding Esperoth, south-west of Efirhal), the border of Ancyros follows the river - and I make the suggestion to extend duchy number 10 by adding half of the Aelignós lake to it. Huge lakes that spread over several countries aren't uncommon (Bodensee, Neusiedler See, just to give two Austrian examples), so we could do it as well here. Duchy Number 10 would probably get two larger cities as well, which could be placed near the lakes, to give the duchy more human weight.

Anyway, would look like this:

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn_duchies6.jpg)

P.S. Thanks for digging up this ancient Curgan map, Mina - while our map won't be that super detailed zomming into the town of Milkengrad itself, we definitely have other important stuff on the map which we can integrate in a province map!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 15 November 2011, 13:02:12
Ah, I love it! No more corrections from my side! Thank you, Artimidor, for putting this together.

In terms of names, we have three islands now which require names, and of course seven duchies (one is already named). Perhaps we can begin brainstorming good names? Any of those names below may be borrowed/altered/rejected, but I thought I would start throwing names out there.

Aldrigold
Arderin
Bailwyn
Baildorf
Ballinset
Deridale
Emindshire (though I hate to use 'shire' for non-hobbit lands...)
Emerton
Faeberton
Gannilow
Greyerwais
Hunsferd
Hailston
Illensfort
Jaemsford
Kaeserton
Lorendir
Maderton
Narraset
Owindorf
Pallenstead
Rumerford
Sayerset
Soulston
Taidorel
Tellerwins
Winderston

Any call out to you in particular? I have my own inklings, but would like to hear what others think. Any other suggestions for names?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 November 2011, 06:13:24
There's something we need to have an eye on when it comes to naming: We're mostly in Erpheronian territory, and there are some typical Erpheronian syllables, endings etc. which we have used at Erpheronian Nomenclature (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11660.0.html#post_Erpheronians). All this didn't exist when the names were first put on the map, so we should try to put in as many Erpheronian sounding names as we can. Or Helcrani names, but we don't have anything there in terms of nomenclature. - Example: The term "Ancyros" is very Erpheronian as it has the typical -os ending (see names like Caemaros, Meos, Jaeos, Thaelos, even Santhros).

It's also possible of course to define certain Erpheronian or Helcrani etc. conventions and than use this name parts regularly, e.g. we use the ending "ran" for "settlement" at the Avennorian influences Manthrian map (Marduran, Kachran, Vreesran, etc.) This could be tried to immitate up north as well.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 17 November 2011, 03:29:12
The Milkengrad entry mentions that the Helcrani have their own language, which they call "High Speech".  Considering their history, this is probably a dialect of Kyranian.  I don't know if they use it to name places though.  For place names, they seem to use the same conventions as the Centoraurians.  Whether this is in High Speech, Centoraurian, or a mix of the two, I'm not sure. 

In any case, Curgan left us quite a number of Centoraurian/Helcrani place names in his entries, and the Xaramon masterplan, so maybe we can try to figure out a naming convention by analysing them.  Here's some things I noticed:

"-gammon" seems to be a common ending, which I think means "fort".  He named one of the Xaramon cities "Dysgammon", then provided the translation "Fort of the West".  That might mean that "dys" is "west". 

"-grad" also appears a couple of times.  According to the Milkengrad entry, it means "city".  The entry also states that "milken" means "wonders" and "milk" means "small". 

"-wana" seems to mean "home".  "Fratrawana" in the Milkengrad entry was translated as "Home of the Fratra".  One of the Helcrani settlements was also called "Ahaiwana". 

"-bellou" appears twice in Xaramon.  Both were coastal towns, but I'm not sure if that is significant or just a coincidence. 

"-on" and "-eim" endings seem to be slightly more common than the others.  I'm not sure if it has any meaning. 

In addition, there were also some Styrash-derived names in Milkengrad. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 November 2011, 04:22:15
Yep, these are very helpful observations and should help to construct a few names.

Also worth noticing: The ending -ctar (Aplectar, Naupactar Shipyards), and there's of course the title "Anactar" with that ending. So trying to build a bridge between a title and a place I could imagine it to mean something like "main", "dominant", "superior" (could be interpreted geographically or as a rank).


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 November 2011, 04:41:16
More on Erpheronian town/village names: There's I guess the very first lousy map I ever drew of so-called "Vardınn" (http://www.santharia.com/maps/details/vardynn.htm), which of course isn't Vardınn at all anymore... *hehe* Actually not a single piece of the map shows Vardınn territory... Anyway, I mention it mainly to get some ideas on how to name settlements. What seems common are endings like "-rin", "-ril" or "-ring" (Nordril, Orril, Traprin, Ishmarin, Weyring...) Could be used for settlements.

As for Rayne's suggestions: We could pick certain endings to represent towns, and maybe -ton is something from which the Tharian term "town" eventually derived. Probably it was that way on Earth as well :) That would be a basis, and Erpheronian sounding/looking elements could be woven into various of the given suggestions Rayne made. Like so:

Emerton --> Aemyrton
Faeberton --> Phaeverton
Kaeserton --> Caeyserton
Hailston --> Haeylston

Just to give you a rough direction. Same could go with -ford and -fort endings - Erpheronians were heavily fortified, so settlements ending on -fort sound pretty good in this respect.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 17 November 2011, 04:48:53
Um, a ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_(crossing)) is a rather different thing from a fort.  But, yes, both are quite useful for deriving place names. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 November 2011, 04:57:22
Yeah, sure - it's not that a ford is a weak fort...  :grin: Just trying to establish some common words that could be used throughout Vardınn. These similar endings are just coincidence, but maybe we'd go more for the fort than the ford due to the martial roots of these guys.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 17 November 2011, 11:45:11
Your linguistic investigations are wonderful! This will be quite helpful, not only for naming duchies, but as Artimidor mentioned, for cities and towns throughout the province. Great work!

Based on the discussion thus far, I have revised and assigned. Please let me know how I can change these to better suit the linguistic environment you two have so assiduously been researching!

Duchy 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Duchy 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Aeribellou
Duchy 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Duchy 4 (Jernais): Haeylston
Duchy 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Duchy 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Centaurwana
Duchy 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Duchy 8 (Thyslan, et al): Phaeverton
Duchy 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Duchy 10 (High Fores): Baelroc


EDIT: Just as an FYI, I've begun adding more internal navigation to the Vardınn Master Plan (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,15119.0.html), which I hope will make things easier for those searching for information. I have also begun adding descriptions of duchies, which I hope to supplement with information about included cities and towns of relevance, along with some information regarding People and Tribes. I'm a little unsure of how to structure these. I'm just learning by doing.

Both the Master Plan and the Master Planner are a work in progress, I suppose.  :buck:


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 17 November 2011, 16:11:00
I'm not sure stycals should be considered duchies.  They are more autonomous, and probably aren't part of the Human hierarchy.  But that's a rather minor issue. 

Quote
Duchy 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Aeribellou
Well, I suggested earlier in the thread that it could be a free city instead of a duchy, in which case it's probably called "Free City of Milkengrad" or something like that.  "Efirhal" is another possibility; Efirhal island makes up most of the territory, after all. 

Quote
Duchy 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Centaurwana
"Centoraurwana", perhaps, but I think just "Aurora" works as well.  According to the Centoraurian entry, "Centorauria" supposedly means "around the Auroras", and the duchy was called "the Aurorian duchy".  Of course, the name could have been changed since then. 

Quote
Duchy 8 (Thyslan, et al): Phaeverton
From the Centoraurian entry: "Thyslan and the nearby area of Thysland formed the homonymous duchy." 
If we're keeping the historical names, it's probably either "Thyslan" or "Thysland".  Otherwise, I guess "Phaeverton" sounds alright, although "-ton" does suggest a town rather than a region, like Artimidor said. 

Quote
Duchy 10 (High Fores): Baelroc
I would have gone with "Helcrah", although historically it seems to mostly refer to the northern half (roughly everything above where "High Fores" appears on the map).  I haven't found any other names for the region.  I'm not so sure about "Baelroc"; it feels a little out of place to me, compared to the other names.  Unfortunately, I can't think of a better name. 


Title: For Rayne, just because.
Post by: Bard Judith on 17 November 2011, 21:45:06


XAZURE HERONS ON THE HEATH OF JERNAIS.

 Note the Heckra Volcano to the south, and the High Fores (relatively speaking) receding to the east in the background...



(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/384701_10150368893843587_517153586_8510629_2016148233_n.jpg)

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/384701_10150368893843587_517153586_8510629_2016148233_n.jpg (http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/384701_10150368893843587_517153586_8510629_2016148233_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 17 November 2011, 22:51:42
Agreeing with Mina about Milkengrad, The Free City of Milkengrad would give us another one with such a title (Bardavos being the other I can think of).


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 18 November 2011, 00:15:05
Well, mostly I suggested that because Milkengrad is one of the most important cities in Santharian history, so it feels a little odd for it to be merely part of a duchy.  Besides, as recently as 1524 a.S., it was part of an independent kingdom, probably its capital.  While we could try to figure out some way of getting it demoted in the process of rejoining Santharia, that seems a little unlikely, considering that they were supporters of the Santhros dynasty, who I think are in power right now. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 November 2011, 04:32:30
Aura +1 for your wonderful drawing, Judy! Beautiful bird, and this in no less than three version, great! Too bad we don't have the entry for it yet, but I hope this will get done sooner or later - we could also use the picture to depict the Hèckra, and I hope there'll also eventually be an entry on that volcano! :D :clap:

BTW: From time to time I realize that there were pictures you have finished to a great degree, but they are still not on site. Just remembered e.g. the Zirghurim mountain with all those lights you made once (that could fit to these dwarves and to Ximax), and the wonderful Journey pic still hasn't made it in site, and there are only small adjustments necessary to make the tree faces a bit different. To name just two. Here's hope that some of these pics eventually can still be finished - would be really a pity if they don't make it!

Now back to Vardınn:

- I agree with Mina and Valan and would also say that Milkengrad is probably best taken care of if we make it a free city with special rights. They've always been something different, have their own title for their ruler etc. - so it sounds somewhat logical to make it that way.

Milkengrad's special status should also reflect in the naming. So the "Free City of Milkengrad" could comprise also some land around the city (=Efirhal) and be called that way, or we could make name city and adjacent lands in a "Milkengradian" way, meaning: with "Milkengrad" being a part of that name. Like "Milkenia", "Milkedia", "Milkrenia" or "Milkgredia", something like that. That way this free territory would be easily to identify by name.

- Stycals: Stycals indeed shouldn't be considered "duchies", they also don't have a Duke or Duchess, but a Ránn or a Rónn. So the elves have their own administrative name for these territories.

- The "-tons" in Rayne's suggestions I would see more as endings representing "towns", being derived from that words (see my notes above). Phaeverton sound quite cool, but to me it works best as town.

- Personally I'd like to keep it simpler and region related whenever possible. "Ancyros" with the "Anycthrian Sea" there is already a given, and it fits very well therefore I think. In the same vein I like "Thysland" which Mina mentioned, but also "Aurora".

- I like for example "Graeyerwınn", which has an Erpheronian touch, "Gannilos" also sounds nice. I can't connect "Aeribellou" with any name scheme however, and the High Fores mayhaps could have something dwarven sounding. Need to investigate more however to come up with proper suggestions. As Mina also mentioned with Helcrah, one might find something in a region's history that could determine a name - ideally it should be connected in a way to the region, so any out of the blue names should be avoided.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 November 2011, 04:40:20
Oh, and one more quite important thing, quote from the Erpheronian entry:

Quote
Secondary names (also called "titles") are usually awarded during lifetime or partly inherited in case they are honourary or customary used names. Persons of noble origin also always have a house name which is added at the end of a formal mentioning of a name.

I think we perhaps shouldn't focus too much on fancy names in Erpheronian territories, but can construct many of them form Tharian words, just the way titles are formed. So that we get settlements like "Weavington" (Town of Weavers), Battlespire, Knightsfort, lots of names which speak for themselves.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 18 November 2011, 10:09:15
Judith! That's gorgeous! You are a remarkable artist... I love your use of color, and the look and feel of the herons makes them manifestations of how I imagined the heath--lovely with a slight eerie quality. The eldritch eyes and the plumage of insouciant blue makes a wonderful combination. They seem familiar, yet exotic. I love it. And the colors in the mountains, the small marsh, the rocks--wonderful, wonderful, wonderful!

Thank you, Judith!

And thank you, Mina, for taking a look at the names and sharing more of your research! Based on the discussion thus far, I propose the following (white are decided, green are stycals):

Duchy 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Duchy 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkrenia (Per Artimidor's suggestion--Thank you, Arti!)
Duchy 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Duchy 4 (Jernais): Haeylston
Duchy 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Duchy 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
Duchy 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Duchy 8 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
Duchy 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Duchy 10 (High Fores): Baelroc

I'm still not sure of Haeylston and Baelroc. Please let me know about these! I will integrate the other into the Master Plan.

Just as a side note--I don't think anyone here considers the stycals to be duchies. I merely refer to the numbers on the map. Do you think people involved in this discussion might get confused? If so, let me know how I should rename them. While they aren't political entities, they are part of the province, and I don't want to ignore them!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 18 November 2011, 17:27:08
Quote
That way this free territory would be easily to identify by name.
I'm not sure if the territory controlled by a free city really needs a separate name; I didn't look very hard, but I don't think it was that common in real life.  Then again, we don't have to follow real life exactly, so it really depends on which you guys prefer.  I don't really mind either way.  That said, if we're going with a separate name derived from "Milkengrad", I would prefer something where the root "milken" is kept intact, eg. "Milkenia". 

Quote
I'm still not sure of Haeylston and Baelroc. Please let me know about these! I will integrate the other into the Master Plan.
Regarding Baelroc, in real life, there was the Duchy of the Archipelago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_the_Archipelago), so we might be able to get away with a name like "Duchy of the Mountains".  Anyway, I'm not quite convinced that it should have a Dwarven name, considering that half of it (and also the half that is more likely to be involved in provincial matters) is Helcrani.  Then again, maybe it's a Dwarven name that was borrowed into Tharian or the Helcrani language (or the Caltharian language, since most of it belonged to Caltharia first). 

As for Haeylston, it seems to me that "Jernais" would be an obvious name for a duchy that has the Heath of Jernais and the City of Jernais. 

Quote
Just as a side note--I don't think anyone here considers the stycals to be duchies. I merely refer to the numbers on the map. Do you think people involved in this discussion might get confused? If so, let me know how I should rename them. While they aren't political entities, they are part of the province, and I don't want to ignore them!
Well, I don't think any of us discussing this are getting confused.  But it might be a good idea to list them separately in the masterplan itself, as well as any entries involving them.  That's yet another improvement I need to make to the Xaramon masterplan.   :buck:

Quote
Just remembered e.g. the Zirghurim mountain with all those lights you made once (that could fit to these dwarves and to Ximax)
I remember that picture.  It should definitely go into the Zirghurim entry, where it was described, but probably not the Ximax entry, as Ximax doesn't actually control the territory it's located on.  It could also be put into the Zirkumire Mountains entry, since it's part of that mountain range. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 19 November 2011, 12:25:24
Ah, I love seeing Judith's picture every time I come to the third page of this thread! I notice things each time I didn't see before, like the details in the wings and that haze of yellow as though from languid sunlight. I see that lovely shade of purple in the heaths and wonder if it isn't the Allia blooming in insouciant kef.

Ah--but yes, the matter at hand! Forgive me--I was daydreaming again.


NAMES

I have update the names based on the discussion. I am all for making things more simple (i.e. calling the duchy of Jernais City and Heath merely "Jernais"). I took your suggestion, Mina, of keeping the "Milken" root. I'm not sure how to alter it. I feel adding "ia" a bit too conventional. Let me know if any of the below suggestions speak to you.

I've put in a suggestion for the last duchy, but I would like another name, even it's less used. Is there any way we could do a Thergerim-Centaurorian-Helcrani combination? Any suggestions?

Territory 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Territory 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkenra? Milkentra? Milkenry
Territory 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Territory 4 (Jernais): Jernais
Territory 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Territory 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
Territory 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Territory 8 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
Territory 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Territory 10 (High Fores): Duchy of the Eastern Mountains(?)


Quote
Well, I don't think any of us discussing this are getting confused.  But it might be a good idea to list them separately in the masterplan itself, as well as any entries involving them.  That's yet another improvement I need to make to the Xaramon masterplan.    :buck:
I have changed duchies to "territories", both in the Master Plan and in the above list. Hopefully this will make things less confusing!


RESOURCES

I know we're still working on the names, but I would love to begin outlining the economies of these duchies, and maybe begin to see how their resources were put to use. I know this list is long; it may be easier to do one duchy at a time...


Territory 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
  • Imports: Cotton and lighter fabrics, metal tools, pottery, alcohol, wood products
  • Exports: Wool, fish, jams/jellies, Churican cheese
  • Resources/Production: Ocean, livestock, some crop-plants (i.e. meldarapples)

Territory 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkenra? Milkentra? Milkenry
  • Imports: ... Mercantilism?
  • Exports: ... Same as above? Artisan goods?
  • Resources/Production: I assume that a lot of the city's income would come from trading taxes...?

Territory 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
  • Imports: Aellenrhim entry mentions that they need to trade for salt
  • Exports: Entry states they trade "information and woven fabrics", though I was thinking honey and candles might be potential exports.
  • Resources/Production: I know that Boldar has granite. I have a feeling that the mountains from the north would extend a little into the forest, making it somewhat mountainous. I thought perhaps maybe other minerals as well? Maybe Moonstone (http://www.santharia.com/resources/metals_of_caelereth.htm)?

Territory 4 (Jernais): Jernais
  • Imports: Probably fish, horses from Aurora, and cloth materials in raw form (e.g. spools of wool/thread
  • Exports: Dyed cloths and cloth products (e.g. clothing, rugs, blankets)
  • Resources/Production: I imagined the heath to be moor-like, with occasionally rocky patches and marshy patches that make the land occasionally difficult for crops but not bad for husbandry--maybe sheep, goats, cows, etc.

Territory 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
  • Imports: I assume a lot of grains and crop fruits and vegetables would come in from Jernais and Aurora
  • Exports: Fish, metals (which..?)
  • Resources/Production: This region is suppose to be brimming with resources. I would guess iron and other useful metals in the Twinnean Peaks and Helcrah--which has been mined (for what, I'm not sure). I imagined that there used to Mithril mines, which have been dry for centuries now. Maybe fish, too?

Territory 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
  • Imports: Metals, wood products?
  • Exports: Horses, livestock, and lots of agriculture (particularly wheat)
  • Resources/Production: Entry on Aurora mentions horses, agriculture, and husbandry (cows, sheep, pigs, etc.). I feel like, with this region, it will be ore difficult to figure out what the region does NOT have.

Territory 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
  • Imports: Horses, some agriculture
  • Exports: Fish, mercanitilism/artisanship? Pottery and other artisan goods?
  • Resources/Production: I assume that, like Milkengrad, trade would generate revenue?

Territory 8 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
  • Imports: Horses, some agriculture?
  • Exports: Fish, metal some trade, maybe some animal husbandry?
  • Resources/Production: I don't know if there's something special about the Crow Hills, but the hills imply potential metal to me--and maybe a place for animal husbandry.

Territory 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
  • Imports: NA
  • Exports: NA
  • Resources/Production: The Silkel trees are probably something of a resource. Because Thaelon is a stycal belonging to elves, I'm not sure what the policies of harvesting the trees would be.... I assume that the forests are more or less left alone.

Territory 10 (High Fores): Duchy of the Eastern Mountains(?)
  • Imports: Salts, horses, and maybe some agriculture?
  • Exports: Metals? I could see animal husbandry around the base of the mountains and through to the lakes
  • Resources/Production: The mountains make metals the most obvious (maybe iron?), though because the mountains are inhabited, I'm not sure what the policy of ownership over those resources might be...


EDIT - RESOURCE LIST?

Ugh, looking at this makes me wonder if we shouldn't make this simpler by generating a list of potential resources, then assigning those resources to the duchy--

  • Agriculture
  • Artisan Goods
  • Cloth
  • Fishing and Sea Salt
  • Horses
  • Husbandry
  • Metals
  • Pottery?

Naturally there are complications with this... Hn.. I might need some input..  :undecided:


EDIT 2:

I've been experimenting with a working map I can layer on to for discussion/development purposes...


(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/PuzzleMap_w500.png)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 20 November 2011, 18:09:20
Quote
I took your suggestion, Mina, of keeping the "Milken" root. I'm not sure how to alter it. I feel adding "ia" a bit too conventional. Let me know if any of the below suggestions speak to you.
Hmm, I guess you're right.  "Milkenra" and "Milkentra" both sound alright to me.  Other options I can think of are "Milkenheim/Milkeneim", "Milkenroth", and "Milkenon/Milkennon". 


It might indeed be better to list the resources each place has, rather than imports and exports.  I don't remember exactly, but I don't think rural areas usually import much of anything.  As for exports, I guess they produce food, and maybe natural resources if they have them.  Most cities would probably need to import at least part of their food, and the raw materials for making various stuff.  As for their products, artisan stuff seems right. 

I don't know about the internal structure of Elven regions, so I don't know if they have this sort of rural/urban divide. 

Most Centoraurian areas probably have horses.  Coastal areas (and the Aerelian Lakes) probably have fish, although I have no idea how far they can really be transported.  Mountains give me the impression of having mineral resources as well (not just metals, but also various types of stones and gems), but I've never actually researched what resources mountains produce, so I don't really know.  Don't forget lumber too.  The maps only show Elven forests, but I think it's safe to assume that there are other forests too where the other races can get the wood they need. 

You also mentioned dyed cloth, which is certainly one possibility, especially for the Caltharian cities.  Jernais seems to be the only one in Vardynn at the moment, but maybe more can be added later.  The dyes themselves are yet another thing that can be traded.  Perhaps they import the dyes from elsewhere?  Enthronia, where most of the Caltharians are located, is one possible source.  But maybe other places produce dyes too.  It seems a lot of things can be made into dyes. 

I am not sure what you mean by importing or exporting mercantilism.  :veryconfused:

Quote
The mountains make metals the most obvious (maybe iron?), though because the mountains are inhabited, I'm not sure what the policy of ownership over those resources might be...
If you mean the Dwarves, you'll have to ask Bard Judith to be sure, but I seem to recall that they let Humans and other races use the land until a certain depth. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 21 November 2011, 00:27:16
Assuming #10 currently includes the High Fores and corresponding (haven't checked to see if there is one) Low Fores, it could simply be the 'Duchy of the Fores' no?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 21 November 2011, 03:05:57
NAMES

Ooo! I like Milkenon. It lacks what I am coining the "Frankenfeeling"--the feeling that the name is either 1) stitched together or 2) somehow affected. It seems very natural and flowing!

As I've been working on the Duchies, I find that "Duchy of the Eastern Mountains" is growing on me. I do like your suggestion, Valan, about "Duchy of the Fores," but unfortunately this duchy only includes the High Fores, not the Lower Fores.

This is the list thus far of names; if we're content with these, then I believe we have all our names!

Territory 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Territory 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkenon
Territory 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Territory 4 (Jernais): Jernais
Territory 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Territory 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
Territory 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Territory 8 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
Territory 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Territory 10 (High Fores): Duchy of the Eastern Mountains


RESOURCES

Forgive that I seem to have jotted all my ideas about the economy in a cursory mess.  :buck: You are quite right to suggest beginning with resources; I seem to have jumped to putting the cart before the horse. My end goal is to eventually get a good idea of how the resources affect the economy of the province, and how the duchies within the province interact with one another economically. I feel like knowing the economy of the province may help uncover particularities in duchy relationships, lending some insights into politics and culture.

I would like to generate a map, as so, which breaks down duchy resources. The larger the circle, the greater the resources. Artisan goods include things like pottery, jewelry, clothing, etc. Animal Products include meat, cheeses, and things like wool and leather. Crop Goods include not only wheat, corn, etc. but also things like raw cotton and dyes (basically anything that comes from a plant). All the categories are somewhat large.

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/CircleMap4_Resources_w650.png)

Naturally, these need editing. The scalability of this project is of course sizeable; we have the option to go quite in-depth, breaking down rough estimates and generating circles based upon those numbers. For example, a circle of 60 pt might equate to X pygges of crop, or 5000 horses, or something along those lines. There is a lot of room for error, of course, and a lot of room for inconsistencies, and I may need to scrap the circle for some sort of bar graph or other graphical representation for the resources, but there are a lot of options!

Once we get the resources ironed out, we should be able to see what duchy is lacking in what resource, and then draw lines of trade based on those deficits, like so:

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/CircleMap4_Economy_w650.png)

This is naturally unfinished, as you can see, and there is of course room for interpretation on these, since some of the resource categories are rather large. For example, Vardynn has pottery (artisan good), but may need to import cloth (also artisan good) from Jernais. But it'll at least give us an idea. And of course, we can further break the categories down into separate maps, if need be (i.e. an artisan trading map that breaks down who produces what major artisan good--pottery, cloth/clothing, jewelry, weaponry, etc.--and who trades what with whom). Of course, that's a future project.

My break-down for this project is something like this:

1) Determine resources in each province
2) Determine resource size in each province (may be exact numbers or simply comparisons [e.g. X of Aurora's resources are crop, 3X of Aurora's resources are horses])
3) Determine most affective graphical representation (circles, some sort of integrated bar graph; I should be able to create something like this without issue)
4) Determine natural trading patterns

Let me know your thoughts!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 21 November 2011, 04:46:18
Wow, this is getting complicated.  

Quote
My end goal is to eventually get a good idea of how the resources affect the economy of the province, and how the duchies within the province interact with one another economically. I feel like knowing the economy of the province may help uncover particularities in duchy relationships, lending some insights into politics and culture.
Hmm, that's true.  However, power was usually quite decentralised in a feudal society, so I doubt that trade will be conducted at the duchy level.  Also, if I remember correctly, real life medieval nobles mostly did not engage in trade themselves, thinking that it was beneath them.  Their wealth mostly came from taxation, I think.  One could still talk about how the duchies interact economically, but I think it would probably be more useful to look at smaller units, who are the ones doing the actual trading, like individual cities and smaller regions.  

Besides resources, trade routes are also quite important.  I'm guessing we'll get to that when it's determined who has what.  

Anyway, this map (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11960.0.html) shows some of the locations of resources that are mentioned on the site, so it might be useful.  Here's a summary of what it shows for Vardynn:

Burning Stones (http://www.santharia.com/resources/burning_stones.htm): Heckra
Copper: Heckra, High Fores
Gold: Heckra, High Fores
Granite: Bolder, High Fores
Iron: Heckra
Marble: High Fores
Salt: Heath of Jernais, southern tip of Thysland
Silver: Heckra, High Fores

In addition, some other resources are also mentioned in tribal entries.  

Centoraurians (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/centoraurians.htm#Natural Resources):
- fish in Aerelian Lakes
- minerals (not specified) and silkworm in Efirhal
- rhodamine dyes in Esperoth
- herd breeding on the mainland (Aurora I guess)

Helcrani (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/helcrani.htm#Natural Resources):
- livestock and wood in High Fores
- olives, grains, cotton, fruits, manufactured goods in Efirhal

Edit: Xazuran (http://www.santharia.com/resources/xazuran_mineral.htm), which is used to make dyes, can apparently be found in the Heath of Jernais, near Heckra.  


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 21 November 2011, 11:01:05
Quote
Wow, this is getting complicated.
Too much?  :undecided: Really, this all might just be an excuse for me to make pretty maps and diagrams.

Quote
However, power was usually quite decentralised in a feudal society, so I doubt that trade will be conducted at the duchy level.  Also, if I remember correctly, real life medieval nobles mostly did not engage in trade themselves, thinking that it was beneath them.  Their wealth mostly came from taxation, I think.  One could still talk about how the duchies interact economically, but I think it would probably be more useful to look at smaller units, who are the ones doing the actual trading, like individual cities and smaller regions.
A good point, Mina! However, I think that resources and trade greatly affected the way many duchies interacted with one another. With a resource-rich duchy like Ancryos, for example, we might expect a larger military for defense. And as the regions now are relatively integrated (I was envisioning a Council of Dukes/Duchesses of some sort [not be to confused with the Voldarian Council]--I would love to discuss this with you and get your thoughts!), votes and decisions may be heavily influenced by resources and the relationships of trade--after all, you're probably unlikely to make a political decision that angers your biggest trade ally.

As always, Mina, your research is astounding! It's nice to have the breakdown of what minerals, in particular, are where. I'm not sure how to approach salt--is this a water resources or a stone/metal resource? I'm not entirely sure how to categorize all these things, so I've tried to put together a list that mentions specifics so they can be discussed and moved/changed if need be. Here's the Resource List as it stands:

Gannilos
  • Water Resources: Fish
  • Animal Products: Wool, Cheese
  • Crop Goods: Wine, Jam

Milkenon
  • Artisan Goods: ??
  • Water Resources: Fish
  • Crop Goods: Olives, Cotton, Fruit, Grains, Rhodamine(?)
  • Animal Products: Silk (silkworm)

Jernais
  • Artisan Goods: Cloth
  • Animal Products: Meats, Cheese, Wool (Sheep, Goats, Teanish)
  • Crop Goods: Wheat, Grains, Cotton
  • Water Resources??: Salt
  • Metals/Stone: Xazuran

Ancyros
  • Metals/Stone: Burning Stones, Copper, Gold, Granite, Iron, Silver
  • Water Resources: Fish, Salt
  • Lumber

Aurora
  • Horses
  • Animal Products: Meats, Cheese, Wool, Leather (Cows, Sheep, Pig, Goat)
  • Crop Goods: Wheat, Grain
  • Water Resources: Fish, Shell Fish

Graeyerwınn
  • Artisan Goods: ??
  • Water Resources: Fish
  • Lumber

Thysland
  • Animal Products: Meats, Cheese, Leather, Wool (Cows, Sheep)
  • Water Resources: Fish, Salt
  • Crop Goods: ??

Duchy of the Eastern Mountains
  • Metals/Stone: Copper, Gold, Granite, Marble, Silver
  • Animal Products: Leather, Meat, Cheese, Wool (Cows, Sheep, Goat, Pig)
  • Lumber

Bolder Stycal
  • Artisan Goods: Woven Cloth, Candle, Knowledge?
  • Metals/Stone: Granite
  • Animal Products: Honey

Thaelon Stycal
  • ??
  • ??

While Lumber is a resource in both stycals, it feels almost irreverent to put it down as a resource--so i have left it out. Perhaps I'm being silly...  :buck:

In any case, let me know your thoughts. Is there anything more we should add to the list?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 21 November 2011, 15:02:50
Quote
And as the regions now are relatively integrated (I was envisioning a Council of Dukes/Duchesses of some sort [not be to confused with the Voldarian Council]
Hmm, what's the political structure of the province like?  Perhaps I've made some incorrect assumptions. 

Quote
I'm not sure how to approach salt--is this a water resources or a stone/metal resource?
I guess it could be both.  Besides evaporating seawater, salt is sometimes also obtained by mining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_mine).

Another way to classify resources might be by their uses.  Food, building materials, other basic necessities, luxuries, etc. 

Quote
While Lumber is a resource in both stycals, it feels almost irreverent to put it down as a resource--so i have left it out. Perhaps I'm being silly... 
Well, they have a lot of trees, but I doubt that the Elves allow them to be cut down, so they probably don't count as a resource. 

Most of the territories probably produce enough crops and animal products for their own use, except Milkenon, because Milkengrad is a huge city and it has relatively little land.  They probably still produce some though, just not enough.  It would be useful to look at which part of each territory produces what too.  For example, Voldar probably doesn't produce enough crops and animal products for its own use either, but it could probably get them from elsewhere in the duchy, eg. shipping them over from Paragonj. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 November 2011, 04:16:40
@Rayne: Don't forget that we have update next weekend - I hope that the Isle of Churican can finally make it on site :) - BTW: If there's a good place to put the heron pic somewhere in an entry (even though we don't have the heron entry itself), I'm also happily listening to suggestions!

Oh, and we still need more intros/teasers for the the fan fiction chapters! Don't need them all immediately, but if I have the intros I can add further parts to the site.

Duchy names: I personally like Mina's suggestion "Milkennon" best! As you say yourself, Rayne: The "-ia" ending is a bit conventional,, and that we we also have the root and something more original :) - ... Ok, read the rest of the thread and saw that you also go for "Milkenon", Rayne, just you prefer the one "n" version - that's fine with me as well. Looks like we all agree that this one's the best choice!  :thumbup:

@Valan: Duchy of the Fores - well, unfortunately the territory comprises indeed only the High Fores, and not the Low Fores. Don't ask me why that is the case - it was just drawn that way a while ago... :lol: So that name would be a bit of a problem.

Now as for the Fores Duchy: Would love to make it dwarven dominated duchy, which might also reflect in the name. For one it's the High Fores duchy, a large mountain range, and as it's the High part of the Fores, the dwarves for sure mainly live there. The dwarves of that region are the Thrumgolz dwarves, and the entry describes them as follows:

Quote
For dwarves, the Pickhands are both more relaxed and more independent than the typical clan. They trade fairly freely with humans ... They are more liberal in their religious beliefs and might even exhibit tolerance to a human's faith in more than one deity ... [Various mentionings of trade locations] ... The dwarves of the Thrumgolz clan helped the Helcrani (in) those early days and taught them - not without a reward- the art of mining. The dwarves wanted to establish a buffer-state which would repel the elven attacks from the east as well as a partner for trading goods. In the face of the Helcrani they found more, as many Thrumgolz dwarves lived among the humans in their villages.

So, with other words: These dwarves mingled better with humans that others, and that could fit in nicely with the design of our duchy, which consists of, say, 60-70% dwarven territory. That's why I would suggest a name inspired by Thergerim Thaal words... let's see: How about "Thrumthyrm" (thyrm=unified, "thrum"=pick, from Thrumgolz) or maybe "Thrumethyrm" if we just put in an "e", which looks nice in there. I like the alliteration of "th-th", gives it all a playful touch. Just a suggestion, though, which would make sense in my point of view.

Resources, just a note: Lumber - yes, there will be many more woods, even larger ones, that's for sure, even though you don't see them on the main map as of yet.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 22 November 2011, 08:44:23
Love that suggestion, Art!   Or elide it for those quick human tongues:  'Thrummyn'.       If we look at other areas, such as Manthria, we realize that not all names have to be 'The Duchy of X' or 'X Duchy', too, so it could be 'The Thrummyn Fief'  or, which I love even better, "Fief Thrummyn'....

('Freehold of Fores' has lovely alliteration as well... :) )


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 22 November 2011, 09:21:33
Even though the duchy doesn't have the high and low fores in it doesn't exclude the name 'Duchy of the Fores' as a possibility in my opinion ... or any other name that includes Fores.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 22 November 2011, 12:44:33
NAMES

Now that you mention it, Artimidor--and as I look at it--I do like two 'n's better than one...

As with all countries influenced by different languages, I am sure our duchy of the High Fores will have a cornucopia of names--which is wonderful! I think it adds wonderful depth and texture to the region. I would like to keep all in the record, but for development purposes, it would best to choose one name, preferably the one we think to be in greatest use.

The choices thus far are:

  • Duchy of the Eastern Mountains
  • Duchy of the Fores
  • Fief Thrummyn

Which do people prefer? Please let me know your preference, if your have one, or your comments/ideas!


RESOURCES -> CITIES

Ah, Mina, now you're getting into the good stuff! --what do people need/want and what do they already have available?

We know, for example, the most every duchy, besides Aurora, wants horses. Aurora, in turn, may not have many metals/stone. It might get these from Ancryos, which perhaps doesn't have enough cloth, which it would probably get from Jernais, and so on and so forth.

I have been cogitating on your statement regarding trade, and you bring up a good point. Before we move to the duchy level, perhaps we should designate towns or villages of note and determine trading routes and patterns. So before we continue with economy-related things, I suppose we should decide where the cities should be.

[I apologize for dragging you from topic to topic, Mina. Thank you for being so patient!]

Now that we have rough duchy borders, and knowing that each duchy needs its share of prominent cities and towns... (and I put this in caps, bold, and bright yellow so many will see and share their opinions and ideas, for I so love a gallimaufry of voices)... ::clears her throat::


WHAT CITIES SHOULD WE HAVE IN EACH DUCHY?

I would like to have at least three major cities/towns in each duchy, if possible, with one designated as the seat of duchy power. I think it would be good to identify--

Name:
Location:
Resources:

Perhaps in Ancyros...

Name: Aberwald
Location: Tip of land jutting into the Ancytharian Sea just south of the Twinnean Peaks
Resources: Metals, stone or any resources that might be here [curiously, none are assigned on Fox's map...], and fish in the wild and terrible sea.

Name: Bosinwais
Location: At the foot of Heckra, just north of the Goltherlon Forest
Resources: Burningstones, Iron, Copper, etc. in Heckra and  any lumber on the outskirts of Goltherlon

Name: Vesolda
Location: On the Ancytharian Sea, just north of where the Aelchraem River comes down from the High Forest and meets the sea.
Resources: Fish in the Anytharian and Aelchraem (possibly shellfish, too!), and any items that may come from trade with the Enthronian city of Elsreth.

[Edited portion below]

Name: Emja
Location: Just south of Ephirn's Lake
Resources: Fish from Ephirn's Lake, and possibly some trading from Enthronia.

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Ancyros.png)




And for Gannilos...

Name: Broderınn
Location: South-east of the isle of Churican
Resources: Mainly wool, cheese, and other animal producst from around the isle, as well as fish

Name: Eferthea
Location: South-west of the isle of Churican
Resources: Jams and jellies, as well as fish

Name: Myrmira
Location: North-east of the isle of Churican, just across from the Peninsula of Paragonj.
Resources: Jam, jellies, some animal products and some fish.

Name: Jacoron
Location: Western side of Witchking Isle
Resources: Fish, TBD?

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Gannilos.png)


Still working on names/write-ups:

Thysland

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Thyland.png)




Eastern Mountains/Fores/Thrummyn

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/EasternMountains.png)




Milkennon

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Milkennon.png)




Aurora

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Aurora.png)




Graeyerwynn

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Graeyerwynn.png)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 22 November 2011, 15:41:33
Hmm, what do you mean by major city?  Large and important cities probably aren't that common.  On the other hand, if you're just listing cities that are noteworthy in some way, that might work.  

As for being seats of power, that's a little tricky.  I read it quite a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, feudalism, or at least the European version of it, was mostly a rural system, with the seats of power being the lords' castles and manors.  Of course, it's not unknown for cities to grow up around castles either, and some cities seem to have been major power centers from the beginning.  In any case, it's possible that some of the dukes might be based in rural estates instead of cities, perhaps in places like Ancyros and Gannilos, which currently don't seem to have very powerful cities.  

In the High Fores, perhaps the Helcrani "villages", or at least some of them, might actually be cities.  Sostra in particular is mentioned as having a famous market.  Further to the south, perhaps there are dwarven towns in the mountains as well.  

As for Milkennon, I'm not sure it needs another major city.  Well, it could work, but I think it's always going to be overshadowed by Milkengrad.  

Quote
Name: Emja
Location: Just south of Ephirn's Lake
Resources: Fish from Ephirn's Lake, and possibly some trading from Enthronia.
Holm, in Nermeran, might be easier to reach from here than Enthronia, since it doesn't involve crossing any mountains.  On the other hand, Jernais seems to be situated along the same river as Holm, so it might be more convenient getting there from Jernais than from Emja.  

Perhaps Emja could be put on the western end of the lake instead.  It would still be connected to Aberwald and the Ancythrian Sea through Cylian River, and it'll be closer to Vandrina River.  We could have a trade route going along Cylian River and Ephirn's Lake, then through Emja to Vandrina River, where it could go north to Holm and other parts of Nermeran, or west to the rest of Vardynn.  

Edit: There's a very old trade routes map here (http://www.santharia.com/maps/medium/santharia_trade_routes.htm).  It might provide some ideas. 

I decided to make one too.  The trade routes are in red, and the arrows basically mean that they go to places outside the province, or to nonhuman areas (Bolder, Goltherlon, Dwarven parts of the High Fores).  The green dots are existing settlements, including the five Helcrani ones in the High Fores, which aren't on the main map but are shown in the Helcrani entry.  The blue dots are new cities, including most of the ones you suggested, although I've moved some of them around a little. 

I've only shown possible land routes leading into Xaramon through the Aerelian Lakes area, but it's probably possible to travel over the water too.  We can decide what the main routes are when the area is more developed. 

I'm not sure how to handle the routes in Helcrah.  Sostra (the middle settlement) is mentioned as having a famous market, so I had the trade routes converge on it, but maybe there's a better way. 

Jernais looks odd; there doesn't seem to be any reason for a major city to be there.  Perhaps it's where one of the Vandrina River's tributaries joins up with it.  That might provide some justification for Jernais's existence. 

I don't know whether the Elves of the Thaelon trade with outsiders or allow them to travel through it, so I didn't have anything going through it.  What do you think? 

Gannilos seems to be rather peripheral, at least where trade is concerned.  Judging by your description of Churican, I guess that's not a problem? 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 November 2011, 05:37:42
A note from here: I've started with drawing the map and while it still takes a while to get the ocean ripples right and the coastal borders - one thing is for sure: Details will be added first to the islands. So if you have specific ideas what you want to have on those - trees, hills, mountains, settlements (size!), rocks, heath etc. please try to specify this roughly if you have concrete ideas. Some things can still be changed around later, but the basic idea on what to put up should be clear. If there are no concrete ideas what to put where and there is no entry yet on a location I try to think up something myself :)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 23 November 2011, 14:39:21
Large cities. Hm, yes, you're right, Mina. Large cities would not be common, though I'm beginning to wonder now about size.

If 2 houses on the map equates to roughly 50,000 people (as in the case of Ximax), then 1 house would seem to equate to roughly 25,000 people--thought some one-house cities equate to as few as 8,000. So perhaps, for these cities we're adding, we're talking about a population of 5,000 people? Does this sound reasonable?

As you state, Mina, I had imagined cities springing around castle. Though I suppose, most importantly, I was thinking about the military power in the region. That is, assuming that duchies have any sort of military... which may be unlikely for some... I think I may be digressing.

I'm tempted to agree with you on Milkennon. Milkengrad, with its population and history, is perhaps enough for this rather diminutive duchy.

Moving Emja to the west of Erphirn's Lake rather than the south looks sound--I agree with your suggestion!

Jernais is a bit peculiar. Though of course, if we can interpret the city to be on the Vandrina River, then your suggestion is sound. I imagined a few natural springs around Jernais, so perhaps one flows into Vandrina. Also, as Thaelon is just across the River, there may be some natural forests in that area, and as I imagine the Heath to be a bit speckled with copses, this might also support the city's wood production trade. And in addition, there is the trade route along the river.

As the elves of Thaelon are mythical, I think your decision regarding trade is good. Even the Aellenrhim in Boldar will probably keep trading to a minimum. The same with the Golgnomes, who I believe are rather reclusive.

(It's been so long since I wrote many of these entries that I've quite forgotten what I wrote!)

Tangential trade with Gannilos should be fine; I imagine them to be rather cut off.

Regarding Helcrah... I think your idea is good. I think we might be able to assume that, given its famous market, Sostra has grown in population while the other Helcrani settlements have remained at a relatively constant population.

I like the trade map! Looking at it, though, I'm thinking it might be good to move the settlement on Paragonj a little south so that it's across from the one on Churican. This was my overlook--I think having the two across the way from one another makes the most sense.



I'm so happy to hear about the map, Artimidor! I haven't much to suggest. As Churican has an entry and I have no plans for Witchking Isle... I wouldn't mind seeing something on Paragonj, near the tip. It would be nice if there were something rather valuable here--a gem mine hidden in a mountain--but perhaps that's some cliche trope knocking. I think I shall be happy with whatever you decide for Vardynn numerous isles.

Speaking of which, did we ever name the three remaining isles?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 23 November 2011, 15:30:01
Quote
If 2 houses on the map equates to roughly 50,000 people (as in the case of Ximax), then 1 house would seem to equate to roughly 25,000 people--thought some one-house cities equate to as few as 8,000. So perhaps, for these cities we're adding, we're talking about a population of 5,000 people? Does this sound reasonable?
I generally consider the number of houses to be a suggestion of how important/influential a city is, rather than a specific number of people.  I did give Caelum twice the population of Ximax, after all, even though it has only one house on the map.  And Alvang has one house too, but it's pretty much uninhabited. 

Quote
As you state, Mina, I had imagined cities springing around castle. Though I suppose, most importantly, I was thinking about the military power in the region. That is, assuming that duchies have any sort of military... which may be unlikely for some... I think I may be digressing.
I don't know if it's the case in Santharia, but apparently standing armies were not very common in medieval Europe, and armies were raised when they were needed.  I think the duchies are probably all capable of raising armies if they were expecting to have to fight a war, though the number of troops might vary quite a bit. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 November 2011, 21:50:47
As far as I can see only the island northwest of the Crow Hills still doesn't have a name (see my last posted map), though we might change the name of "Witchking's Isle" to something else, because it bears the name only because of the cliff as of yet. Suggestions on those are welcome.

The houses on the main indeed are just rough suggestions, in the detailed map we have more possibilities to differentiate, e.g. by showing just huts, one, two, three for smaller settlements, or actual houses also in combination of huts, and then various houses put together to form a minor or larger city. Houses and huts shouldn't represent exact numbers of inhabitants though, otherwise it gets too scientific. Basically now that we're going for the detailed map, we can make the decisions now how large we want the the villages, towns and cities.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 24 November 2011, 00:09:51
The two islands north of Witchking's Isle and the island Westhron is on don't seem to have names either.  And of course most of the new cities need names too. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 24 November 2011, 02:03:02
Here's a quick generation of potential name. Once we get them named we won't have to worry about which isles don't have names and which do not!


Witchking Isle --->Vaelthorn Isle

Westron's Isle ---> Wytessa

Tiny Isles off of Churican ---> Caero Isle and Maedagoros Isle

Thyland's Isle ---> Naefera Isle



TRADING ROUTES AND CITIES

I tried as best I could to replicate your map, Mina. I moved around the Paragonj city and moved the path of some routes, though not the cities they link to (if that makes sense). I also made the Helcrani villages in the High Fores blue, since they are not on the map... though I suppose the color doesn't really matter. I have also numbered all the blue city, regardless of if they've already been named, so that we can make sure we have a name for all the cities.

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500.png)

1) [...]
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
                               
12)
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
21) Emja


So maybe we can brainstorm some city names? Perhaps we can re-introduce some of the names we brainstormed previously?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 24 November 2011, 04:34:31
Hmm, I see that there's now a route cutting through the Thaelon from Voldar.  That links it more directly to the Ancythrian Sea region, which is great.  But the maritime route that goes to the Dark Sea is no longer there, which isn't so great.  I think if it's put back, it should make Voldar an important port.  You'll have goods going through it on the way to the Ancythrian Sea region and into Enthronia.  I guess it could be a rival of Milkengrad, which has a similar thing going on, except the goods go via Cemphiria instead of the Thaelon. 

The Milkengrad-Salsair route has been replaced with a Thyslan-Salsair route.  I'm not so sure about this change.  I keep feeling like the new route would look better if it was split into 2 routes that link up at city 9.  I'm not sure why the Milkengrad-Salsair route has been removed either.  Milkengrad is linked to the mainland with a bridge, so I don't see why there won't be any overland trade between it and cities on the mainland.  A direct route to Salsair would make sense, unless there's some obstacle in the way. 

As for names, City 7 could be Pelasgarth (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/helcrani.htm#Territory).  Here's its description, from the Milkengrad entry:
Quote
Pelasgarth, the Styran fort, located just opposite Helbury, where the elves can see Thaelon far in the horizon. Both these forts (Helbury and Pelasgarth) block naval access to the city from the east.

It's just a fort here, but perhaps it could have grown into a small city. 

City 6 feels a little odd to me as it is.  Maybe it could be put closer to the Bolder forest, and be where trade with the Elves of the forest takes place? 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 24 November 2011, 05:19:41
Eep! Sorry about that. Some of those were oversights on my part. I've added a route from Milkengrade to Salsair through the Auroras. Let me know what you think of this. I have incorporated all the other changes you have mentioned:

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-1.png)

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7) Pelasgarth
8)
9)
10)
11)
             
12)
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
21) Emja


EDIT

Looking at the map, I'm wondering if we shouldn't have a city between Thaelon and Boldar, where those two trade routes meet up. On the original trade map you shared, Mina, there's a town here. Perhaps we should add one as well?

Potential City Names:
Aemyrton
Phaeverton
Caeyserton
Haeylston


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 November 2011, 06:00:31
Here's just a little visual progress report showing a first draft of an island, this one's the one with Witchking's Cliff at the southern tip. Hope you like :)

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn1.jpg)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 24 November 2011, 06:20:44
Oh, Artimidor! That's fantastic!

I love the gnarled trees, the texture of the cliffs on the south, the details of the ocean and the mountains and the lighttower...! It's wonderful, Artimidor! You have obviously put a great deal of work into it, and it shows. I love it!  :heart: Thank you!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 24 November 2011, 10:37:38
I suppose its okay.  But, I think that tower is taller than most of the mountains. :buck:


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 24 November 2011, 14:20:20
Quote
Looking at the map, I'm wondering if we shouldn't have a city between Thaelon and Boldar, where those two trade routes meet up. On the original trade map you shared, Mina, there's a town here. Perhaps we should add one as well?
I don't see any town there on my map, but I guess that could work.  Perhaps move city 6 there? 

Arti: Will the map also show part of Xaramon, like how part of Sanguia appears on the Manthria map?  I guess I should probably hurry up with my own Xaramon map.  Been drawing and redrawing rivers for the past week. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 November 2011, 18:12:58
@Rayne: While mapmaking isn't particularly a five minutes job, reusing elements I have already at the Manthrian map isn't that complicated if you have a plan what to put where. It gets more complicated when I have to draw entirely new elements, which make a location very unique - like the Mithral Mountain range in Manthria for example. Or make a building look like it fits on our map based on a 3d object, e.g. a monastery or something. A while ago Judy posted a good link to a page with free 3d objects, which I can try to use as base elements to get some new stuff in. This will take the most time however to get the style match.

@Altario: Well, the houses are also half the size of the mountains, so maybe there are giants living there in general? :lol:

@Mina: The map I use now is the one I've posted to show the duchy borders - just in monster size. So there won't be much on Xaramon on that one. However, in the long run - as I've said - having a roughly prepared map marking what you want to have where makes it easier to eventually do that map, as once I have the information, the rest that is required is only my time. Let's see how long it takes to make Vardınn, then we'll see what I'll do next.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 25 November 2011, 05:37:33
Well, Mina, I was actually think more of an addition rather than an arrangement, like so:

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-2.png)

I also filled in the city names. Let me know which of these I should change!

1) Vairntin
2) Phaeverton
3) Caeyserton
4) Aemyrton
5) Erdefra
6) Isgar
7) Pelasgarth
8) Trikrin
9)  Olimaroc
10) Devarem
11) Haeylston
               
12) Argammon
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
Emja
Aemyressa


Artimidor, are there a lot of customizations you'll have to do for Vardynn? I know that it takes some time to do these maps--though they look fantastic!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 November 2011, 06:14:20
Here's another work in progress version:

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn2.jpg)

There will of course be further changes in Churican, but just let me know if there's a problem or something, Rayne.

As for customizations: Well, we should have some new elements for sure, so that it doesn't all look like Manthria, but one after the other. I'll get to adding elements a bit later, now I'm trying to make a bit basic progress first.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 25 November 2011, 08:56:30
Brainstorming for map elements:

We need some new trees... pines and firs.... to mix in with all those deciduous!   That would definitely help the look.  And even just varying the ground textures makes such an incredible difference, from loam to sand to pebble... having tried it on the Ximax just-for-fun map gives me new appreciation for the work you are doing here, Art.      How about a 'heath' texture with tiny leavy plants (just a more granular, high-contrast look) - or a sandy area (lighter, with receding edges, like sandtraps on golf courses, or beaches)?     Could we have a few more farm textures, with thin and thick rows?  Heavily harrowed and fallow?

I think the free site has windmills and farmsteads.  A different style of generic  building (round thatched hut) would be great when we get more southernly maps.... or perhaps a Scottish cottage would look appropriate for the north?    Would like to try my hand at designing some icons from scratch or editing some of the ones we have.   

All for now, have to start my work day.  Hugs!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 25 November 2011, 12:50:02
Artimidor, your maps are coming along wonderfully! Just a few things to note:

1) Would it be possible to have the towns/villages more aligned with the locations specified on the trade route? I notice that some of the settlements don't quite match.

2) If it's not too much trouble... I would love for the north-eastern part of Churcan to have cliffs looking out on the sea, with the lighttower on these. Is this possible? And might the lighttower be moved down just a smidge?


I assume that the detailed map, though detailed, is still representative. Naturally lighttowers are not larger than mountains--the use of a lighttower is meant merely to indicate where one happens to be--in the same way that, though there are 8 houses on Witchking Cliff's Isle (Proposed Name: Vaelthorn Isle), there are in actuality probably hundred of houses on the isle. Is this an accurate assumption?

Thank you again for all your hard work, Artimidor.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 25 November 2011, 14:53:57
Wow, Arti, you work really fast.  It's looking pretty good so far too. 

Rayne:
Quote
Well, Mina, I was actually think more of an addition rather than an arrangement, like so:
Well, I suggested it because city 6 looks a little out of place now that city 22 provides what seems to be a more convenient place for trading with the Elves.  But maybe some other explanation can be found for it.  Perhaps it could be an Aellenrhim city? 

Most of names you suggested for the Centoraurian cities don't feel very Centoraurian to me.  Let me try modifying them a little. 

8. Trikrin -> Tiracron or Tyrcuron
9. Olimaroc -> Argammon
10. Devarem -> Dewarheim or Deraheim
11. Haeylston -> Helesgrad or Herstengrad (after King Hersten?)
12. Argammon -> Olimaroc -> Arlemaroth

I've tried more or less to preserve the sounds.  Don't know if they work.  Any thoughts? 

I switched 9 and 12 because the two cities on the Xaramon side of the lakes are called Corgammon and Dysgammon, so adding one more "-gammon" city might be a little too much. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 November 2011, 15:55:36
@Judy: Feel free to try your hand on editing/updating/drawing symbols if you like - important is that they match the style as good as possible. Have you got the Map Elements PSD file with the icons I currently use? Icons need to be done on a transparent layer at any rate, so that they can be moved in front of any background.

Textures are also quite crucial for maps like this. I'll have to look for more. There are great sites out there which offer textures, and the ones we can use the best are continuous one - those which can be used pretty much as tiles to form one hole. Should someone know/find good texture sites with grasses, earth, rocks and stuff, please let me know.

@Rayne: Yeah, things can be moved and added easily (I've neatly arranged the layers for convenient editing!), and I'll do so to match the trade routes of course. Just wanted to get the look and feel for Churican across for now - and there's still some work to do of course.

The best way is always to have it layed out - and I'd say we'll do it that way with the duchies later: I'll post the duchies parts of the monster map for those who have concrete ideas and let them place things, then I'll just put the map together.

The map of course is representative, working with elements merely as symbols, yup.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 25 November 2011, 18:58:18
Some awesome 'free seamless ground textures' available here:

http://www.spiralgraphics.biz/packs/terrain_lush/index.htm (very professional look, designed for fantasy maps)

http://www.gamemakergames.com/forum/index.php?topic=34848.0 (over a hundred free seamless textures from a generator, packaged and zipped)

http://designm.ag/resources/dirt-ground-textures/ (photorealistic or photo, not seamless but great for natural reference and inspiration)  - dry cracked ground, pretty pretty please!





Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 25 November 2011, 19:00:31
Here's a rough of the Carmalad area, done with four of the free textures from the second link.  As you can see, once de-saturated, and blended with feathering and opacity tricks, they make rather nice landscape...

(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380560_10150381930953587_517153586_8555238_1369882544_n.jpg)

Excuse the crude coastlines - I have to get a tip from Artimidor as how to do water and coast edges successfully - but they aren't the point of this little exercise.

Working on some icons in Adobe now....


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 November 2011, 19:11:31
Very cool Judy, great resources you've dug up there! :D

It's great to play around with such textures - if it one doesn't fit entirely you can adjust the size (ideally make it smaller, so that e.g. large stones become smaller), go for another brightness/intensity, make it half transparent while putting it on top of another texture, make a soft (feather) edge of a lot of pixels etc. That way and can give it all an entirely new look. Having these available is very helpful!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 25 November 2011, 19:53:19
Very interesting.  They should probably be stickied somewhere. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 November 2011, 22:48:06
I guess the work on the Vardınn map is also a good opportunity to prepare map elements better, allow them to download along with the source file of the finished map (I'll make sure to organize it much better now than I did with Manthria), and add updates to the current tutorials on site plus links to textures. Because if you have the whole source of a map, the elements and a proper tutorial, and also links to good textures I guess you are capable of doing great maps yourself with a bit of exercise :)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 26 November 2011, 00:00:34
Thank you for your input and suggestions, Mina! I have updated the names to the names you have suggested!

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-2.png)

1) Vairntin
2) Phaeverton
3) Caeyserton
4) Aemyrton
5) Erdefra
6) Isgar
7) Pelasgarth
8) Tyrcuron
9)  Argammon
10) Deraheim
11) Herstengrad
               
12) Arlemaroth
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
21) Emja
22) Aemyressa


I think it would be all right if both city 6 (Isgar) and city 22 (Aemyressa) were there. Isgar is on the coast, so would be ideal for traders gooing along to coast and possibly to Narvos or other cities along the coast. Meanwhile, Aemyressa would be ideal for trades going by land, possibly to Nyermersys, but certainly Weyring and Astran.

After we confirm the names, maybe we should figure out was cities export what...?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 26 November 2011, 04:55:24
It just occurred to me that the point where the routes from Voldar and Cemphiria meet up at the Vandrina river might be a decent place for a city, if it's not too late to add any more.  Jernais does feel a little empty compared to the other duchies.  

I don't know about the others, but at the moment I have no further comments regarding the names.  

As for exports and trade, I can think of a few.  

Bosinwais (19) looks like it might be in the general area where xazuran is produced.  I guess it might be where xazuran merchants get it from.  Jernais might be where some of them trade the xazuran away for other things; I imagine merchants trading along the Milkengrad/Voldar-Enthronia route might stop here and pick up some xazuran.  Jernais might also be close enough to the salt-producing areas to be where people bring the salt to sell.  

Edit: What I said about xazuran might apply to burning stones too. 

Deraheim (10) probably gets salt too.  I put it there because it was roughly where the resources map showed the salt to be located.  Might also be a place for trading with the Sanhorrhim just across the border.  

Most of the Helcrani towns at the High Fores probably have metals, with Sostra (15) being the main market.  Menegula (16) might have some trade with the Goltherlon gnomes.  Well, I don't know if it's close enough, but it looks like merchants will have to go through it to get to the Goltherlon forest anyway.  


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 26 November 2011, 09:52:02
CITY NAMES

Of course we can add more cities! Looking at the map, I’m not sure if we shouldn’t add a city near the bridge that crosses over from the Thaelon. In the original trade routes map you shared, there was a route going through the break in the Thaelon, between the Aviariáth/Aelle'lón and the Ó'phyría, so I have added one, as well as a branch of it going between the Aviariáth and Aelle'lón to Vontron.

Between this and your suggestion, we get the following:

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-3.png)

This also leads to the need for two more city names. I’m not good with the Centaurorian city naming.

1) Vairntin
2) Phaeverton
3) Caeyserton
4) Aemyrton
5) Erdefra
6) Isgar
7) Pelasgarth
8) Tyrcuron
9) Argammon
10) Deraheim
11) Herstengrad
12) Arlemaroth
               
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
21) Emja
22) Aemyressa
23) Ritia
24) Lenra


RESOURCES

In regards to resources, I would like to develop not only the resources, but the abundance or paucity of the resources, in addition to deficits (that represent actual needs for the community). I was hoping to do this in a way that simplifies our job while accounting for a certain amount of complexity. The only way I could think to do this was attributing almost game-like attributes to the resources, as follows:

Plentiful: +3
Significant: +2
Moderate: +1
Limited: 0
Scant: -1
Insufficient: -2
Deficient: -3

If anyone has a better idea of how to do this, let me know! The below is the beginnings of that. I’ve also incorporated the resources you mentioned, Mina, though I’m not necessarily sure how to break up all the metals/stones amoung the Eastern Mountains Province--or if we should. And we can, of course, vary the abundance/paucity of these resources depending on what cities are near what mines.

In terms of Goltherlon and the Golgnomes, the tribe entry only mentions trading dyes and cloths to the Caltharians. Nothing is mentioned regarding the Helcrani on the other side of the Mountains, though that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't something traded between these two cultures.

Gannilos
Vairntin (1)
  • Resources: Fishing (+2), Lumber (0), Crop Goods (0), Animal Products (+1), [...]
Phaeverton (2)
  • Resources: Fishing (+2), Lumber (-1), Crop Goods (0), Animal Products (+2), [...]
Caeyserton (3)
Aemyrton (4)

Graeyerwynn
Erdefra (5)
Isgar (6)
Aemyressa (22)
Accam
Westron
Vontron

Milkennon
Milkengrad

Thysland
Tyrcuron (8)
Argammon (9)
Deraheim (10)
  • Resources: Salt (), [...]
Herstengrad (11)
Thyslan

Aurora
Pelasgarth (7)
Salsair

Jernais
Ritia (23)
Lenra (24)
Cemphiria
Jernais
  • Resources: Salt (), [...]

Eastern Mountains
Arlemaroth (12)
Ahaiwana (13)
Heleroth (14)
Sostra (15)
  • Resources: Copper (), Gold (), Granite (), Marble (), Silver (), [...]
Menegula (16)
  • Resources: Copper (), Gold (), Granite (), Marble (), Silver (), [...]
Codomma (17)

Ancyros
Vesolda (18)
Bosinwais (19)
  • Resources: Xazuran (), Burningstones (), [...]
Aberwald (20)
Emja (21)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 26 November 2011, 12:25:14
Aren't volcaneos in our world meant to provide rich lands for crops? If that is the case, maybe one or more of those settlements (13 or 14) near the base of the volcano could be crop growers? That is if they aren't already.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 26 November 2011, 12:33:57
Quote
In the original trade routes map you shared, there was a route going through the break in the Thaelon, between the Aviariáth/Aelle'lón and the Ó'phyría, so I have added one, as well as a branch of it going between the Aviariáth and Aelle'lón to Vontron.
Well, if you think the Elves allow movement through the area, I guess that would be fine.  I also think you probably meant something other than Vontron, which isn't even in the same province. 

Quote
This also leads to the need for two more city names. I’m not good with the Centaurorian city naming.
Those are probably Caltharian or Erpheronian cities, so no need to worry about Centoraurian names.  I am not sure how to judge names in those two langauges, however.  There aren't that many existing examples to compare them to. 

Regarding the resource attributes, I guess a 0 means more or less sufficient for their own use, but not enough to really be traded away?  I also guess that when you list resources for a city, it's mostly representing the resources of its hinterland, so eg. what's listed for Varintin (1) might represent what's produced and/or needed for the whole island? 

Looking at the list, it seems like Aurora has very few cities, yet the area doesn't look empty at all on the map.  I guess most of the cities are just outside Aurora's borders.  Perhaps Herstengrad (11) could be moved eastward a little so it's in Aurora? 

I wonder if all five of the Helcrani settlements in the High Fores have to be listed.  Well, I guess there might be some variation in the resources each one has, but they could probably be treated as a single region.  Since there are Dwarves in the duchy, maybe there should be Dwarven towns as well.  Perhaps just one, where they trade with Humans?  The Thrumgolz entry mentions that they trade ores to the Helcrani for medicines and grain. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 26 November 2011, 13:01:02
Hey Dek! I'm always glad to see you enter the discussion. I hope NaNoWriMo is going well! I like your suggestion, though more than likely the settlements on the mountains probably wouldn't experience the kind of fertility lent by the volcano as much as the Heath of Jernais; those resources would probably be funneled into our two newest cities (23 and 24, which I think I need to rename...) and the Heath of Jernais. I will make the changes to reflect your suggestion! I assume that the Crop Goods produced would be +2, because despite the fertility, there may be limited space in the heath (given is moorish qualities)


Quote
Well, if you think the Elves allow movement through the area, I guess that would be fine.  I also think you probably meant something other than Vontron, which isn't even in the same province.  
Oops! Yes, I meant Voldar. Sorry about that! And I think that as long as humans aren't building settlements in the area and aren't journeying into the forests, it should be fine, though I wouldn't mind Artimidor coming to take a look.


Yes, sorry, let me explain the system a little better:
0 is equilibrium, meaning that you're basically producing enough of resources X in and around the city to sustain the needs of your population. +1 means that you're actually exceeding the needs of your population, and that's therefore a resource that you can put out on the open market for trade, if so you desire. -1 means that you may produce a certain resource, but not enough to meet the needs of your population. This is a resource you may be more apt to buy off the open market.

Does this make sense?


In terms of moving cities--we can definitely move them, but let's make sure we move them for the right reasons. Some duchies will have more or less cities, and in some cases that an indication of certain trade route landmarks we've missed and should add. However, moving a city because one duchy doesn't have as many cities as another might not be the most sound reasoning. Afterall, it's the economies that should decide where the cities go, not the politics! Moving Herstengard eastward would be it relatively close to Salsair, and it makes sense, from an economic point of view, for cities to be relatively spread out.


We could make Sostra the one town where the Thrumgolz trade with humans. I don't mind getting rid of some of the settlements if you think we should, but I don't mind them all being there. I'm tempted to keep them and designate certain mining resources to each.


If these are Caltharian and Erpheronian cities in Jernais, I have less issues. Suggested names are below. Please let me know what you think!


NEW CITIES

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-3.png)


1) Vairntin
2) Phaeverton
3) Caeyserton
4) Aemyrton
5) Erdefra
6) Isgar
7) Pelasgarth
8) Tyrcuron
9) Argammon
10) Deraheim
11) Herstengrad
12) Arlemaroth
             
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
21) Emja
22) Aemyressa
23) Cardos
24) Liosa


RESOURCES

Plentiful: +3
Significant: +2
Moderate: +1
Limited: 0
Scant: -1
Insufficient: -2
Deficient: -3


Gannilos
Vairntin (1)
  • Resources: Fishing (+2), Lumber (0), Crop Goods (0), Animal Products (+1), [...]
Phaeverton (2)
  • Resources: Fishing (+2), Lumber (-1), Crop Goods (0), Animal Products (+2), [...]
Caeyserton (3)
Aemyrton (4)

Graeyerwynn
Erdefra (5)
Isgar (6)
Aemyressa (22)
Accam
Westron
Vontron

Milkennon
Milkengrad

Thysland
Tyrcuron (8)
Argammon (9)
Deraheim (10)
  • Resources: Salt (), [...]
Herstengrad (11)
Thyslan

Aurora
Pelasgarth (7)
Salsair

Jernais
Cardos (23)
  • Resources: Crop Goods (+2), [...]
Liosa (24)
  • Resources: Crop Goods (+2), [...]
Cemphiria
Jernais
  • Resources: Salt (), Crop Goods (+2), [...]

Eastern Mountains
Arlemaroth (12)
Ahaiwana (13)
Heleroth (14)
Sostra (15)
  • Resources: Copper (), Gold (), Granite (), Marble (), Silver (), [...]
Menegula (16)
  • Resources: Copper (), Gold (), Granite (), Marble (), Silver (), [...]
Codomma (17)

Ancyros
Vesolda (18)
Bosinwais (19)
  • Resources: Xazuran (), Burningstones (), [...]
Aberwald (20)
Emja (21)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 26 November 2011, 14:17:00
Quote
Oops! Yes, I meant Voldar. Sorry about that! And I think that as long as humans aren't building settlements in the area and aren't journeying into the forests, it should be fine, though I wouldn't mind Artimidor coming to take a look.
It looks like a pretty long distance to travel without settlements of any sort though.  I don't know enough to tell if it's feasible. 

Quote
Does this make sense?
Yes, thanks.  Hmm, let me think about this...

Quote
In terms of moving cities--we can definitely move them, but let's make sure we move them for the right reasons. Some duchies will have more or less cities, and in some cases that an indication of certain trade route landmarks we've missed and should add. However, moving a city because one duchy doesn't have as many cities as another might not be the most sound reasoning. Afterall, it's the economies that should decide where the cities go, not the politics! Moving Herstengard eastward would be it relatively close to Salsair, and it makes sense, from an economic point of view, for cities to be relatively spread out.
Fair enough, though I wasn't suggesting that it be moved that far.  It is, if I'm not mistaken, already quite close to the border.  In any case, like I said earlier, the current arrangement of the cities seem fine. 

Quote
We could make Sostra the one town where the Thrumgolz trade with humans.
I was actually suggesting a Thrumgolz town where the Humans are allowed to go and trade in, although I guess this would work too. 

Quote
I don't mind getting rid of some of the settlements if you think we should, but I don't mind them all being there. I'm tempted to keep them and designate certain mining resources to each.
I don't mean getting rid of them, just treating them as a single unit, since their resources are probably quite similar.  But listing their resources separately is fine too.  It might make the distribution of resources in the region clearer. 

Ahaiwana (13) looks pretty close to the volcano.  Perhaps it has burning stones? 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 27 November 2011, 10:32:46
I moved Herstengrad a smidge east. I also added a trade route around Heckra to Aurora. I thought it best to try to integrate the resources and the new cities, so the list below represents the new cities we have (as numbers), the old cities that were already there (letters), and resources listed under each. We’ll need to begin listing resources for each city (including name and abundance value).

Plentiful: +3
Significant: +2
Moderate: +1
Limited: 0
Scant: -1
Insufficient: -2
Deficient: -3

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-4.png)


1) Vairntin
  • Fishing (+2)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crop Goods (0)
  • Animal Products (+1)
  • [...]
2) Phaeverton
  • Fishing (+2)
  • Lumber (-1)
  • Crop Goods (0)
  • Animal Products (+2)
  • [...]
3) Caeyserton
  • [...]
4) Aemyrton
  • [...]
5) Erdefra
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • [...]
9) Argammon
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt ()
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • [...]
               
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burningstones ()
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Copper ()
  • Gold ()
  • Granite ()
  • Marble ()
  • Silver ()
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Copper ()
  • Gold ()
  • Granite ()
  • Marble ()
  • Silver ()
  • [...]
17) Codomma
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • [...]
20) Aberwald
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • [...]
               
A) Thyslan
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • [...]
C)Accam
  • [...]
D) Westron
  • [...]
E) Voldar
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • [...]
H) Jernais
  • [...]


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 27 November 2011, 22:54:49
Hmm...

Milkengrad has cotton and silkworms, but it also produces cloth, which probably consumes those.  I'm going to guess that very little, if any, raw cotton or silk is exported, and most is used for cloth production, so perhaps 0 on cotton and silk.  Cloth might be higher, I guess, but I'm not sure how much.  Olives, grains, and fruits were also listed.  Should different types of crops be listed?  I would expect that some of these might be exported, but overall, Milkengrad probably imports more foodstuff that it exports, perhaps -1 or so.  Likewise for fish.  Armouries, shipyards, and pottery manufactories were also mentioned, so plenty of wood and minerals needed I guess.  Also, Esperoth has dyes, specifically rhodamines, but I haven't found out much about them except that they are apparently used for lasers.   :huh:

Jernais I mentioned might have some salt, perhaps +1 or so.  It apparently has tree farms, but import lumber from further away too, so perhaps -1 for lumber, and maybe +1 or so for wood products?  They apparently harvest silk from the Silkel Trees of the Thaelon, but it seems most of it is used instead of being sold.  They also import fabrics, dye them, and I guess export them after that.  How should that be listed? 

Bosinwais (19) probably has xazuran and burning stones.  Both seem to be relatively rare resources, so even if Bosinwais doesn't produce much of them, it would probably still be a large portion of what's available in Santharia.  Don't know if this means it automatically qualifies for +3 or if the actual quantity is more important. 

Salsair probably has lots of horses, maybe +2 or +3?  And maybe +1 or +2 salt for Deraheim (10)?  Also, city D should be spelt "Westhron". Can't really think of anything else at the moment. 

What happens when a city's hinterland doesn't match up with the political boundaries?  For example, assuming there are no political restrictions against it, I would expect Milkengrad and maybe Thyslan to get some of their food more or less directly from the parts of the Aurora Fields closer to them, which is in a different duchy.  Would this be counted as food they have, or food they need to import? 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 28 November 2011, 11:52:09
I've updated the list with the information you provided, Mina! I would like to be as specific as possible with these; I have "Foodstuff" on the list right now, but if we could further break that down, all the better. I've removed the resource listing for the Churican cities until I can work out specifics.

I would like to somehow indicate raw vs. artisan goods. There are some goods, though, that are hard to place, like horses--I assume they might be considered an Artisan Good if they are trained and a raw good if they are not... I'm not sure how we want to do that.

I have placed Xazuran and Burningstones as +3. Even though they are rare resources, they are valuable and may not be something the city necessarily needs. Though we don't have exact quantities matched to these values, I'd like to be able to say that Jernais could theoretically trade 1 of their cloth for 1 of Bosinwais's Xazuran. While the quantity of xazuran is less, the value is more or less equivalent.

I'm also a bit confused by rhodamines. Like you, I looked them up--actually hoping to figure out how they were produced. No luck. It might be worth requesting some sort of change to the entry...


Plentiful: +3
Significant: +2
Moderate: +1
Limited: 0
Scant: -1
Insufficient: -2
Deficient: -3

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-4.png)


1) Vairntin
  • [...]
2) Phaeverton
  • [...]
3) Caeyserton
  • [...]
4) Aemyrton
  • [...]
5) Erdefra
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • [...]
9) Argammon
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt (+2)
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • [...]
           
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burningstones ()
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Copper ()
  • Gold ()
  • Granite ()
  • Marble ()
  • Silver ()
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Copper ()
  • Gold ()
  • Granite ()
  • Marble ()
  • Silver ()
  • [...]
17) Codomma
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • Xazuran (+3)
  • Burningstones (+3)
20) Aberwald
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • [...]
           
A) Thyslan
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • Cotton (0)
  • Silkworm (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Foodstuffs (-1)
  • Fish (-1)
  • Metals (-2)
  • Lumber (-1)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (+1)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (+1)
  • Artisan Good: Ships (+1)
  • Dyes (+1)
C)Accam
  • [...]
D) Westhron
  • [...]
E) Voldar
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • Horses (+3)
H) Jernais
  • Salt (+1)
  • Lumber (-1)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+1)
  • Silk (0)
  • Cotton/Wool (-2)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+3)
  • Dyes (-1)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 29 November 2011, 00:30:12
Quote
I'm also a bit confused by rhodamines. Like you, I looked them up--actually hoping to figure out how they were produced. No luck. It might be worth requesting some sort of change to the entry...
It probably could use an update.  It's a pretty good entry, but it's getting a little old.  I guess we could just state that Milkengrad has dyes without really specifying what sort of dye. 

Hmm, let me try another way of looking at the resources. 

Heath of Jernais:
There is salt throughout the Heath of Jernais, which is probably traded through Jernais, Cardos (23), and Liosa (24).  Earlier in the thread, you also suggested crops for those cities, but they seem to have been removed.  Was there any particular reason for that?  You also mentioned animal husbandry in the masterplan.  The part near the Heckra volcano has xazuran, which goes to Bosinwais. 

Heckra:
Heckra has a number of resources, which go to Bosinwais (19), the Goltherlon, and possibly some of the northern Helcrani towns, most likely Ahaiwana (13) and Heleroth (14). 

The Goltherlon and Golgnomes entries mention coal, iron, and small quantities of copper, crystals, and mithril from the volcano.  The Gnomes are also mentioned as trading dyes to the Caltharians.  Maybe they have xazuran too?  Or maybe it's some other unspecified dye. 

There are also iron, silver, and gold, which are mentioned to be the main resources of Helcrah, along with copper.  Maybe Bosinwais gets some too? 

As mentioned earlier, there's also burning stones.  Should the Golgnomes have any? 

High Fores:
The middle part of the High Fores, around Sostra (15), Menegula (16), and Codomma (17) seems to have silver, according to the resources map.  Livestock and wood are also mentioned.  The southern part is shown on the map as having granite, coal, gold, silver, copper, and marble.  I'm guessing most of these are probably controlled by the Dwarves? 

Aerelian Lakes:
The lake's resources probably go to Salsair, Herstengrad (11), and Arlemaroth (12).  Well, there's fish in the lakes.  I'm guessing, due to all the water, the area immediately around the lakes is probably good for agriculture too.  Lake Salestra has shellfish, which probably mostly go to Salsair. 

Aurora Fields:
From the entry:
Quote
The most southern field is called Asloriath, and consists mainly of small groves, though both farmers and nomads occupy the area.
I guess there's some lumber, crops, and livestock, including horses.  Resources probably go to Herstengrad and Salsair. 

Quote
The northern field is called Ageron, and is almost completely made up of small farms where a good percentage of Santharia’s food is shipped from to other provinces and towns. There are a few nomadic Centoraurians that roam about the plains, but for the most part, it is mainly filled with farmland stretching for as far as the eye can see.
Sounds like mostly crops with some livestock, which probably go to Thyslan, Milkengrad, Pelasgarth (7), and Cemphiria. 

Quote
The eastern field is called Lawapedion, and is the main settlement of the Centoraurians, though perhaps “settlement” wouldn’t be precise. It is home to the nomadic tribe who have made most of the field into a large pasture for their horses. This is not to say that no farmers or growers live here, for there are a few to help feed the population.
Seems to be mostly horses, with a bit of crops.  Resources probably go to Salsair, Arlemaroth (12), and Cemphiria. 

Thaelon:
It has silkel trees, and going by the Jernais entry, nearby Humans are apparently allowed to harvest some.  The cities close enough are Voldar, Jernais, Cardos (23), and Liosa (24).  Some villages that supply Cemphiria, Emja (21), and Aemyressa (22) might also be close enough. 

That's probably enough for one day.  Let me put them into the list you made.  I've highlighted the parts I changed, or just the city names if most or all of its resources were new or had been changed.  Nonhuman areas were also added. 

1) Vairntin
  • [...]
2) Phaeverton
  • [...]
3) Caeyserton
  • [...]
4) Aemyrton
  • [...]
5) Erdefra
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • Crops
  • Livestock
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • [...]
9) Argammon
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt (+2)
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • Fish
  • Crops
  • Lumber
  • Livestock
  • Horses
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • Fish
  • Crops
  • Horses
  • [...]
           
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burning Stones
  • Iron
  • Silver
  • Gold
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • Iron
  • Silver
  • Gold
  • Burning Stones?
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Livestock
  • Lumber
  • Silver
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Livestock
  • Lumber
  • Silver
  • [...]
17) Codomma
  • Livestock
  • Lumber
  • Silver
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • Xazuran (+3)
  • Burningstones (+3)
  • Iron?
  • Silver?
  • Gold?
20) Aberwald
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • Silkel Trees?
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • Silkel Trees?
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • Salt
  • Crops?
  • Silkel Trees
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • Salt
  • Crops?
  • Silkel Trees
  • [...]
           
A) Thyslan
  • Crops
  • Livestock
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • Crops
  • Livestock
  • Cotton (0)
  • Silkworm (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Foodstuffs (-1)
  • Fish (-1)
  • Metals (-2)
  • Lumber (-1)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (+1)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (+1)
  • Artisan Good: Ships (+1)
  • Dyes (+1)
C)Accam
  • [...]
D) Westhron
  • [...]
E) Voldar
  • Silkel Trees
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • Crops
  • Livestock
  • Horses
  • Silkel Trees?
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • Fish
  • Crops
  • Shellfish
  • Lumber
  • Livestock
  • Horses (+3)
H) Jernais
  • Salt (+1)
  • Lumber (-1)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+1)
  • Silk (0)
  • Cotton/Wool (-2)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+3)
  • Dyes (-1)
  • Crops?

Goltherlon
  • Iron
  • Coal
  • Dyes
  • Burning Stones?

Southern High Fores (Thrumgolz Dwarves?)
  • Granite
  • Coal
  • Gold
  • Silver
  • Copper
  • Marble



Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 29 November 2011, 12:19:47
Mina, that's fantastic! Thank you for integrating them into the list! It does make my job easier.

I wonder if it would be useful to breakdown crops based upon what might actually be bought and sold. I feel there are some crops that are more likely to be traded than others. Wheat, corn, and grains are probably traded fairly frequently (after all, they travel relatively well) while things like lyth'bels and other fruits might not. Jams and Jellies, though, would. I'm uncertain how to categorize all this, though.

We could leave it as Crops without specifying, though then comes the implications of the number system. Does Crop (+2) = Wheat (+1) + Corn (+1), or does it equal Wheat (+2) + Corn (+2). And if the former (which seems more sound given that we're using the numbers as a representation of value per quantity such that the value of "1" Xazuran is equivalent to "1" Cloth), should we allow for Crop (+4)? Personally, I would prefer as much specificity as we can!

If we had to make a list of all transportable Foodstuff, what would it look like?

Wheat
Corn
Jam/Jelly
Beer/Alcohol
Cheese
Fish (dried)
Beef (dried)
Pork (dried)
Veal (dried)
Lamb meat (dried)  (is there another word for this...?)
Honey
Tea leaves
Herbs (various - there are too many to break this down, and it probably isn't as important)
[...]

Are there any others you can think of?

... Hm... this is beginning to remind me of a different list constructed by a certain Bard. We may not need the same level of detail I remember being in her list, but perhaps we can borrow from it? I wonder if she's around to pop in and give us her two sans...



EDIT

I was cogitating on a logistical issue that reared while I was looking over my over-simplified system for enumerating the resource quantities. With a limit of 3, this system makes it hard to account for wild fluctuations in quantities. I cannot claim, in good conscience, that “1” wheat in Aurora (1 of 3, no doubt) could be equivalent to “1” cheese or jam coming out of tiny Churican. No doubt the value of that 1 wheat would vastly exceed “1” cheese.

Disconsolate, I retreated for my nightly shower--that activity so conducive to mental fecundity--and realized that perhaps what we needed was indeed some form of currency. I feared using Santharian currency, because of multitudinous coinages, and thought we might best consider something that might be traded for all of these goods.

I recalled that somewhere--I want to say Russia or some like country where it is frightfully cold--the economy crashed (not unlike my original resource system). Economists trying to jump start the economy there, as a measure of a progress, did not measure the value of all goods. Only one: the egg.

So I propose using the currency of a dozen eggs (a dozegg, for short!). A 16oz/ 2tot jar of jam might be worth 2 dozeggs (2 dozen eggs). If we say that Churican produces 1500 cases of jam a year at 24 jars per case, that would be 36,000 jars, equaling 72,000 dozeggs.

I would image a bag of milled flour, let us say one equalling 3 od, might be worth 2.5 dozeggs, give or take. One acre of land can produce 40 bushels of wheat. One bushel can produce about 90 ods of flour, so one acre of land produces about 3600 ods of flour. Now one acre is equivalent to 4,046.85642 peds (meters) squared. Divide this by 6000 and you get leagues--so one acre is equal to .67447607 square leagues which produced 3600 ods of flour. However, according to Santharia Weight and Measure, farmers have on average 1 square league of land (a perry), which would therefore produce 5,337.47624 ods of flour. If we assume 3,000 farmers, and therefore 3,000 perries of land, they would be producing ~16,012,428 ods of flour a year, worth approximately 40,031,070 dozeggs per year.

Perhaps we can also further ease of use by introducing Kildozegg (1000 dozen eggs -- KDE for short)

Therefore:
Aurora: Wheat (+40,031 KDE)
Churican: Jam (+72 KDE)

Of course, there is room for error, but this might generate a more accurate system...


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 29 November 2011, 23:13:47
I think that it is probably too early to go into that level of precision, which sounds like a pretty big project itself.  It's probably enough for a masterplan to know what each place has, and what they are short of, and possibly where the goods go.  


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 30 November 2011, 10:15:00
*shoehorns his way into the conversation*

I wanna do a town/city when you get all the broad strokes done. :)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 30 November 2011, 11:37:45
Oh dear! Was that a deep, black, impossible-never ending-project hole I was about to tumble into? Oh, Mina and Altario: my heros!  :heart:

You’re right--I'm getting way ahead of myself! Perhaps instead of complicating, we should simplify, doing away with the numbers entirely and instead opt for +, 0, and -. This will give us an idea of what each city has, what’s being shipped out, and what’s being shipped in.

I liked the look of your yellow titles. I have made them all orange so that they’re easier to see!

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-4.png)

1) Vairntin
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
2) Phaeverton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Metal (-)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (-)
3) Caeyserton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Metal (-)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (-)
4) Aemyrton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Metal (-)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (-)
5) Erdefra
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • [...]
9) Argammon
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt (+)
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • [...]
           
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • [...]
17) Codomma
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • Xazuran (+)
  • Burningstones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
20) Aberwald
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • Silkel (0)
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • Silkel (+)
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • Salt (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • Salt (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
           
A) Thyslan
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • Crops (-)
  • Livestock(0)
  • Cotton (0)
  • Silkworm (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Foodstuffs (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (+)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (+)
  • Artisan Good: Ships (+)
  • Dyes (+)
C) Accam
  • [...]
D) Westhron
  • [...]
E) Voldar
  • Silkel
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • Crops
  • Livestock
  • Horses
  • Silkel
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Shellfish (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Horses (+)
H) Jernais
  • Salt (+)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Cotton/Wool (-)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Dyes (-)
  • Crops (+)

Goltherlon
  • Iron (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)

Southern High Fores (Thrumgolz Dwarves?)
  • Granite (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)


Quick Edit: Mina, I updated the politics section in the Master Plan not long ago. Maybe you could take a look? I'm really uncertain about what to do regarding the Voldarian Council... do they still exist?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 30 November 2011, 18:26:49
Yes, apparently the Council still exists.  From the Ranks and Titles entry:
Quote
Some of the Thanes are heads of long respected governmental institutions as well. For example in Vardınn the Thane presides over the ancient Voldarian Council and its Ten Houses dealing with affairs of the Voldar, the capital of Vardınn.

I'll look at the rest later.  

Edit:

It feels like there's a lot of cities with + for crops.  I didn't mean for every city I added crops to to have enough to export (although some might), just that they have them. 

I wonder if basic necessities might be getting listed too often in general.  Food, for example, is probably something most cities get enough of from their surrounding areas.  It should be enough to list those that have an excess of it, and those that don't have enough and have to import them from further away. 

The three cities of Churican all have excess wool but insufficient cloth, which sounds a little strange to me.  Why isn't the wool being made into cloth? 

Copper, crystals, and mithril were also mentioned as being found in the Goltherlon, but in very small quantities, so I'm not sure if they should be listed. 
Quote
Small amounts of mithril can be found around the volcano Hèckra, though not enough of this metal can be mined to produce armor and weapons.
Quote
Though there is copper within the crumbling rock, there is hardly enough for those living in the Goltherlon Forest to put it to use as the Thrumgolz have done within the mountains. Sometimes bits of crystals can be found, but once the precious stones are cut and treated, they are too small to catch a very high price.


As for politics, I'm not sure I can say much about it.  "Minister" probably sounds better than "secretary".  Milkennon is listed as a duchy instead of a free city, assuming you didn't mean to change it.  (By the way, is population should be Helcrani and Centoraurian, not Erpheronian).  Would Graeyerwınn still be called a duchy if it's not ruled by a duke?  Maybe "Duke of Graeyerwınn" is an additional title of the Thane. 


Title: Re: Vardýnn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 December 2011, 06:20:50
Here's an updated island of Churican and the island to the west, now hopefully with the settlements placed better according to the specifications, more cliffs to the north, some different textures (grassier hills, craggier coast up northwest) etc. - see here:

(click on image to enlarge)

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn3_small.jpg) (http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn3.jpg)

We also have two first windmills in there now - how does that look?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 01 December 2011, 13:42:21
Oh my! I'm exhausted. What a long day!

All right, let's see here...

RESOURCES
For Churican's cities, I suppose I had imagined wool leaving the island to be made into clothing elsewhere... but I think I'm imagining a more efficient transportation system than currently exists. I'll change this.

I would like to keep basic necessities like Crops in the list, just so that they're accounted for. We can put "0"s for them, but having them serves as a check that we have considered this as a resource and decided it is neither lacking nor abundant. It also separates it from those resources which a city might have none of, but also has no need of. For example, Xazuran would not be listed under any Churican city because it is not a resource the island has or needs. Does this make sense?

We should decide which crops may be changed from + to 0 and begin to fill in the list a little more. I will try to work on this tomorrow. I am spent!


POLITICS
Ministers does sound better. Secretary may be a bit too US-ish.

Do you think there may have been any changes to the Voldarian Council? We're talking about 10 houses that have supposedly existed for literally thousands of years. I have to imagine some changes might have taken place. Though perhaps this may be somewhat dependent upon history...


MAPS
Wonderful, Artimidor! Oh, Churican looks so quaint! I should like to live there--or at least have a summer home on one of those airy cliffs looking out over the ocean, or nestled in the hills next to one of those cool lakes!

I wonder if the windmills might be made smaller. Right now they look quite large that a self-proclaimed knight-errant might attack one proclaiming it to be a giant! (Does anyone know the reference?) Besides, I would like a great many of them in the Aurora plain, and if they are smaller, we may be able to include a good deal more!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 01 December 2011, 15:07:25
I should quixotically leap to identify your reference, dear elfling, save for my brainless state of illness....

(grins wearily at her)

Art always goes for minimalism against representationalism.    One windmill on the plain = 50 windmills.   

I think a basic 0 to mark existing resources that keep a community balanced (neither a reliable surplus to trade out nor a lack to trade for) is a great idea.


Title: Re: Vardýnn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 December 2011, 15:40:18
I can try to make the windmills smaller. It's a bit tricky however, because the lines get blurred if I just reduce the size, so I need to redraw the outlines entirely. Then of course the details that are now visible might get easier lost. So it's always about compromise. I'll give it a try, then we'll see. But it makes sense to make them smaller - the larger it is the less you can show on the map.

Should the tower be moved perhaps more on the long cliff to the east? Because with all those cliffs around it makes it difficult for anyone to reach the isle at all if one tries to follow the light of the tower... At the eastern tip of the cliff it seems more likely.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 02 December 2011, 03:42:11
Quote
We should decide which crops may be changed from + to 0 and begin to fill in the list a little more.
Maybe the cities around the Heath of Jernais?  I think you mentioned something about it being moor-like, which seems to suggest that there isn't a lot of agriculture going on.  Perhaps Salsair as well, depending on how large a city it is. 

Quote
Do you think there may have been any changes to the Voldarian Council? We're talking about 10 houses that have supposedly existed for literally thousands of years. I have to imagine some changes might have taken place. Though perhaps this may be somewhat dependent upon history...
It's influence and powers is unlikely to have remained the same over such a long time, I think, after all the political changes that have taken place.  Some of the houses might have been replaced by others as well.  The wording on the entry seems to suggest that this was the case. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 02 December 2011, 05:13:28
Ok, guys... Before I continue I post the monster size map of Vardınn, see link below (you need to click on it and enlarge it to actually see the whole size). Those interested in defining a part of the map should focus on a duchy/stycal etc., cuit that part out (don't adjust the size of your crop!) and try to place towns, villages, mountains, swamps, mines entrances, rivers, castles and whatever you can think of on it. All you need to do is to mark it clearly - you can use symbols, letters, whatever you like. I'll then grab that part next of whatever gets defined first and try to add it to the main map.

Here are the territories that match the numbers on this map (you'll find the numbers within the borders - sorry that they are different than on the previous map, they are just for rough reference anyway):

Territory 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Territory 2 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Territory 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Territory 4 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Territory 5 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkenra? Milkentra? Milkenry
Territory 6 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
Territory 7 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
Territory 8 (Jernais): Jernais
Territory 9 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Territory 10 (High Fores): Duchy of the Eastern Mountains(?)

(click on image to enlarge)

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn_monster_small.jpg) (http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/vardynn_monster.jpg)

P.S. Some changes have been made in the section I've focused on (windmills smaller, an abbey on an island, piers here and there).


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 02 December 2011, 11:24:23
Could I take the High Fores, seeing as they will need to integrate with the dwarven presence there?  I'll add mine shafts in the appropriate locations, for example...



Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 02 December 2011, 12:48:53
Even when ill, my dearest Bard, you fill me with child-like glee and delight! Only you would be able to pick up such a reference! ::blows a kiss:: You are wonderful, wonderful and most wonderful!  :heart: :heart:


Artimidor--I believe that lighthouses, traditionally, were not used so much to attract boats to land as to warn them of it. This is how I imagined lighttowers functioning as well. If you know how to read the stars, you are never really in danger of not find the land. You're more in danger of the land finding you!

(Oi, my head just got filled with Soviet Russia jokes...)

Below is a map with Rivers, lakes, and swamps included, though I fear my renditions are lacking is verisimilitude.  :undecided: I'm really not certain of how to make them look more realistic.

I haven't thought so far as castles, though I would assume at least one castle per duchy.

Below is a smaller version of the map so that people can easily view and provide feedback. I have attached the larger one, as well. I also have a psd version (too large to attach) that I can send if need be, though I'm not sure it will be particularly helpful.

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/vardynn_monster_PhysicalMap600.jpg)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 02 December 2011, 14:37:22
Many of your rivers look sort of backwards.  In general, rivers join up, rather than split apart, except at deltas. 

Quote
I haven't thought so far as castles, though I would assume at least one castle per duchy.
Probably more, since dukes are most likely not the only ones with castles.  Besides, each Santharian province is, I think, about the size of a fairly large European country, and those seemed to have castles all over the place.  Of course, it's probably not a good idea to show every single castle. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 02 December 2011, 22:59:30
Famous story from Frank Koch:

"Two battleships assigned to the training squadron had been at sea on maneuvers in heavy weather for several days.
I was serving on the lead battleship and was on watch on the bridge as night fell.
The visibility was poor with patchy fog, so the captain remained on the bridge keeping an eye on all activities.

Shortly after dark, the lookout on the wing reported, "Light, bearing on the starboard bow."
"Is it steady or moving astern?" the captain called out.
The lookout replied, "Steady, Captain," which meant we were on a dangerous collision course with that ship.
The captain then called to the signalman, "Signal that ship: 'We are on a collision course, advise you change course twenty degrees.'"
Back came the signal, "Advisable for you to change course twenty degrees."

The captain said, "Send: "I'm a captain, change course twenty degrees.'"
"I'm a seaman second-class," came the reply. "You had better change course twenty degrees."

By that time the captain was furious. He spat out, "Send: 'I'm a battleship. Change course twenty degrees.'"
Back came the flashing light, "I'm a lighthouse."

We changed course."


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 December 2011, 00:04:11
@Judy: :lol:

@Mina/Rayne: Yeah, that splitting up/joining issue seems a bit extreme on Rayne's map, so maybe that could be adjusted a bit here and there, e.g. if you look at the river going through the Thaelon or the one through the Bolder. These should be fed by other tributaries as well to make it look more realistic. Hope you could draw them on an own layer, Rayne!

BTW: A PSD file would be great eventually, if you could just send a file with the river layer when you're done (just get rid of other layers, save it as an own file, and send that). Because I could then just take the river layer and add it to my main map.

@Judy: Would be great if you could take the High Fores and think up some things there, especially to make it look or sound very much like a Thergerim place as far as names are concerned.

(BTW: Hope you've also seen my Resources thread update, where I tried to collect your "unfinished business" a bit. If we get something finished from that list I'd be happy as well. Maybe you see a possibility to make something happen there in the long run, so that those great pics don't just disappear in the Forum depths. :D )


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 03 December 2011, 12:47:37
Oi! I should know that smaller tributaries don't split, but rather turn and flow to joining the brimming river ... ... ... for men may come and men may go but I go on forever. (Forgive me! I couldn't help myself!)

All right! Here's another attempt.

Fortunately, the Rivers/Lakes was its own layer, so not difficulty there. I've attached the full-size JPG (It's harder to see the swamps on the smaller version). I've included red dots to indicate potential castles/fortresses, though I need some input on these. I knew that, given history, there would probably be a number of castles/fortresses along the border with Enthronia, from back in the day, but otherwise just put dots in places where I would like to have my castle built.  :P Which may not be the best way to go about it.

I can send you the PSD file, Art, though I would like feedback to make sure I'm not entirely off-base!



Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 03 December 2011, 12:59:04
Milkennon and the nearby parts of the mainland already have several fortresses indicated on Curgan's maps.  I'll see if I can mark them on this map. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 03 December 2011, 13:04:40
That would be fantastic! I can then add them to the PSD version of my map!

I do wish that we could attach larger files to our posts, so that we might more easily share PSD files.  :undecided: I suppose it might be too much stress on the servers, though...

I'm also wondering about larger temples, etc. Should these be indicated on the map? Do we have an icon that could be used for temples?

I would also like to see many north-western parts of the province relatively well-forested. Is this possible? Need I mark this on the map? I'm not entirely sure where the forests should go--and I'm not particular about location; just as long as there are lots of trees! (I do love the trees!).


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 03 December 2011, 13:46:10
Alright, it's done.  Mostly based on this old map (http://stuff.santharia.com/curgan/milkengrad_map2.jpg) and the tiny one in the Helcrani and Milkengrad entries. 

A little additional detail:
The shores around Norgammon bridge is supposedly less elevated, and large ships are blocked by the brigde. 

It might not be very clear as the straits aren't really drawn to scale, but the other 6 forts are arranged in pairs and meant to control naval access to Milkengrad.  Apotropaeon and Turacanth were shown with what looks like a chain stretched between them; it's possible that the other two pairs have something like this as well. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 December 2011, 23:14:57
@Rayne: Larger files can be attached to posts if you ZIP them and make them smaller, Rayne (right-click on file, Send to..., Compressed ZIP Folder).

As for the rivers: They seem to have been severely cut in this version, but perhaps it isn't necessary right now to get the tiny creeks in as well. Because quite naturally I will put a hill or a smaller mountain here and there and then smaller tributaries can be added in that process. So I'd say the river map is fine now, just send me the PSD layer - or attach it here in this thread.

Larger temples: Well, the free clipart collection (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/?gallery=rpg_map), which I'll primarily use to build our elements, has this interesting pic (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/svg/rpg_map/university.svg) to offer. Could be used to represent temples in general. So I'd go with that one.

@Mina: Thanks for the Milkennon map, I've already moved it into my master map for further reference.

BTW: Guess it's the right time now to go ahead and put together an advanced tutorial which works as an extension to the current tutorial on the site. The two island we have at the moment should be just fine for the purpose to explain things a bit, and I can include a nice layered version of that part of the map to help beginners on their way. The library of map elements will still grow in the making of the Vardınn map, so in the current tutorial there will still be some elements missing, but I can still add them later. So I'll start with putting together a basic version of the tutorial.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 04 December 2011, 00:41:52
I've sent the layers to you via email, Artimidor. Because I'm working of a mac, I don't have the same functions as a PC, and while I'm sure there is an easy way to find to zip it up, I'm a bit short on time right now!

I have made the changes to the Castles/Fortresses, per Mina's helpful map (Thank you, Mina!). I feel that the locations still aren't necessarily ideal. I'm also not sure if we should split up castles and fortresses, since I feel as though, at least for a long while, they had similar or complimentary functions such that they resembled one another very closely.

Is it possible to edit some of this clipart, Artimidor? If so, I do like this one (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/svg/rpg_map/monastery.svg), minus the wall and the graves.

In terms of temples.. one thing that strikes me when comparing to European history is the role of religion in governance and power. I know a lot of this is still being worked out in the history (i.e. the Clerical Age), but it might be useful to determine where the seats of religious power lie in the region, as well as their influence on the governance of the province. This might not only help with the placement of temples, but also help illuminate important aspects of the provincial governance.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 04 December 2011, 19:17:44
Done the High Fores area, with the rivers, roads, human, and dwarven settlements.  Some slight adjustments were made in the closeup map so humans and dwarves aren't living right on top of each other (literally) and so that roads match up with rivers, etc. etc.

In the process I discovered that Heleroth (14) has access to asbestos (Antifire Rock), or Rockwool as we call it here, through trading with the Thrumgolz Dwarves.    That should be added as a resource for the town.  :)

Am sending the layers to Artimidor right now - will post the JPG of the area next!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 04 December 2011, 19:27:42
Aaaaaand.... here we are!

(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/377546_10150399143363587_517153586_8607676_891667439_n.jpg)

Hope everyone approves of how I've put their work together.  This is, please note, a WORKING version, not in any way a finished map like Art's art.... :)



Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 05 December 2011, 00:00:34
Wow, that's pretty detailed.  I don't think Ahaiwana should be a hamlet though.  As far as I can tell, the five settlements are each an important holding of a Helcrani clan, which suggests something larger than a mere hamlet. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 05 December 2011, 02:59:22
Updated Resource List!

I added Rockwool under "Southern High Fores," which pertains to those items that the humans trade with the Thrumgolz Dwarves. I have tried to fill out the table a bit more, but of course a lot of this was just guessing. Please let me know if something looks amiss, or let me know what you would like to add--or feel free to copy this list and add the resource yourself! Whatever's easiest!


(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-4.png)

1) Vairntin
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
2) Phaeverton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Metal (-)
3) Caeyserton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Metal (-)
4) Aemyrton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Metal (-)
5) Erdefra
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
9) Argammon
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt (+)
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
           
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
17) Codomma
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • Xazuran (+)
  • Burningstones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Horses (-)
20) Aberwald
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • Fish (+)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • Salt (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • Salt (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Salt (-)
           
A) Thyslan
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (+)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (+)
  • Artisan Good: Ships (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Cotton (0)
  • Silkworm (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Foodstuffs (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Horses (-)
C) Accam
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
D) Westhron
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Metals (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
E) Voldar
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • Silkel (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Horses (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Shellfish (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • Dyes (-)
H) Jernais
  • Salt (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Cotton/Wool (-)
  • Dyes (-)
  • Horses (-)

Goltherlon (Golgnomes)
  • Iron (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Crops (-)
  • Salt (-)

Southern High Fores (Thrumgolz Dwarves)
  • Rockwool (+)
  • Granite (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)



Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 05 December 2011, 12:50:41
As far as the dwarves are concerned, that looks great - except please add Wood (-). 

We Thergerim love making things out of wood as a counterpart to all the rock we have around us, but must almost always trade for it (only a few of our bachelors are comfortable Aboveground long enough to cut down trees, and we prefer to have humans do the work of cutting, planking, drying, etc....)  Our 'tables', 'chairs' (benches and ledges, usually), and even 'bedsteads' are carved from the living rock and well-padded, but it's nice to have some luxury items which can be moved around our household caves!  And of course smaller pieces of beautifully-grained wood are always popular for carving and whittling artworks and jewelry from...we see it as exotic...


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 06 December 2011, 04:19:34
@Rayne: Thanks for the rivers and the swamps, they're all part of the master map now!

The temple clipart you mention can of course be integrated, Rayne - I need to rework them anyway to make them fit to our design, so we don't need walls and graves. The wall still looks quite nice, though - maybe it's of use somewhere else...

There's an interesting fortress clipart (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/svg/rpg_map/fortress.svg), which looks nice, so we'd have a castle pic (see new Vardınn map on the mountains of the next island) and that fortress pic. Should work well methinks.

@Judy: Thanks for the High Fores map - looks great! We could still make Ahaiwana larger as Mina pointed out, at least it is one of the key settlements of the Helcrani. So it is likely that it has grown in the course of time. Unless there's a reason that it was reduced to a hamlet...

In general I assume that another hamlet here and there will still be added in the final map, but let's keep this for later. The most important thing is that I have a basic map to start with, then we can still see how it looks and where we'd like to add/adjust something in the final version.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 06 December 2011, 12:30:49
RESOURCES:

It sounds like Thrumgulz would happily trade Lumber for some of their goods! I will add this to the list--though I would like to ask:

Would it be better for me to make a new thread for Vardınn's City Resource List?


MAPS

The fortress looks very castle-like! (I think most fortresses do). I like it!

Did anyone have any comments/suggestions on the castles/forts? As Mina said, we probably do not need to identify the location of every castle, but rather those of note or that are rather larger/important. I'm not sure if all my suggestions qualify, or if there are some I've missed.



POLITICS

I want to make sure that discussion topics don't get lost, and this is one I'm still curious about:

Quote
In terms of temples.. one thing that strikes me when comparing to European history is the role of religion in governance and power. I know a lot of this is still being worked out in the history (i.e. the Clerical Age), but it might be useful to determine where the seats of religious power lie in the region, as well as their influence on the governance of the province. This might not only help with the placement of temples, but also help illuminate important aspects of the provincial governance.

Should we determine where temples would like be? I would assume that, given the age of some of these cities and the history, there could possibly be some very larger and impressive temples.

Is there any unified religious institution that spans across Santharia? Sort of like the Roman Catholic Church? Is there any sort of "Pope" figure who preside over the religious institution? Are there "high priestesses" or "high priests" who preside over those temples dedicated to a certain god or goddess? And how would such an institution interact with governance?

I feel as though it is likely there is already some such discussion on the boards somewhere, but I'm not sure...


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 06 December 2011, 20:29:30
Milkengrad has a temple of Ava, supposedly the only Human one.  I'm not sure if any other religious sites in Vardynn have been mentioned, but there's certainly quite a few.  In general, I think religion is one of those areas that need a lot more development.  There seems to be very little information about the Aviarian religion besides who the gods are.  But that's a different project.  I don't think adding a few notable temples to the province would cause much problems. 

Quote
Did anyone have any comments/suggestions on the castles/forts?
Centorauria and Erpheronia were traditional rivals of each other, or at least that seems to have been Curgan's intention.  There could be some forts along the old border. 

Quote
Updated Resource List!
There are a number of cities where crops were not mentioned.  Also, are fish important enough that inland areas like the High Fores should be marked as having insufficient fish?  I might be wrong, but I'm thinking that where fish isn't easily available, people probably won't be eating much fish in the first place.  And maybe it should be listed as just "seafood", so that shellfish won't have to be listed separately (eg. Salsair). 

Hmm, I think we haven't gone through the resources of the Crow Hills, Ancythrian Sea, and Twinnean Peak regions.  Did I miss anything? 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 December 2011, 04:36:28
Well, as far as religious institutions are concerned: The rough Santharian Timeline (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,10783.0.html) offers some details here, see mainly the Clerical Age mentioned there (610-825). According to the text there and this map (http://stuff.santharia.com/history/history_clerics.jpg) we've had four elemental "archbishops" (title still to be changed!), dominate the kingdom and instruct a puppet king. These are actually four power centers - which is better than just one clerical leader, because there can be more diversity and tension. I assume these clerical power centers are still intact more or less, maybe one move elsewhere due to a certain reason, but let's assume it's all as it was back in the Clerical Age.

The clerical center of importance for us is the "Fire archbishop", which was initially placed at Milkengrad. In his comment Curgan pointed out, I quote it here:

Quote
It will be hard for the Helcrani to have an archbishop of the 12 since they consider them inferior and believe to Ava, just like the elves (who along with dwarves form two of the Helcrani clans). Maybe they could have an archbishop of Ava, as a heresy...

With other words: Milkengrad is not good, but the archbishop should still be in Vardınn. So I'd say let's move him/her somewhere else - places like Voldar and Jernais are not the best options as they have already a certain history and place in the province. So how about, say, the next larger town around, e.g. Thyslan?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 07 December 2011, 15:25:30
It seems there isn't much written about Centoraurian beliefs, but since the Helcrani are quite integrated into Centoraurian society, it might be safer not to use Thyslan or any other Centoraurian city.  Would Cemphiria work?  It's Erpheronian and not very far away. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 December 2011, 15:44:58
Yup, should do the job quite as well, I'd say.  :cool:


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 08 December 2011, 12:43:53
Sorry for the delay! Last night was a wash! Between a mini-seminar to learn all about my masochistic late-winter escapades and my harried, late-night lucubrations to try to pull together my class for tomorrow, I was exhausted! But fear not!--for I am here!


Perhaps, Artimidor, you may be able to clear up a small aspect of elven belief and myth for me. There seem to be many out there who state that the elves believe in Ava above all others and worship her above all others (in Koldar's writing of the Kaırrhem, he states,  "Like the Sarvonian elves the Kaır believe in a High Goddess above all other Gods, calling Her İvan."

However, I was under the impression that this was why Fá'áv'cál'âr fell and that the elves had changed their ways--that they now recognize the Aviaria and pay respect to them, as well. I thought that the only difference between elven and human beliefs was the presence of Ava and her mirrored self, Coor. Am I utterly mistaken?


Cemphiria seems like a good town for a temple and regional religious influence/power (perhaps it might be allowed to grow a little due to the new prestige it bears?).

Perhaps I may be forcing development and this discussion in places where it's not ready to go, but I feel it most integral to flesh out what the religious texture is in the region. There is no doubt institutionalized Aviarian religion (IAR). I assume IAR developed in the Clerical Age and evolved a bit since this time. Are there any orders pertaining to the IAR (knight-esque or monk-esque or scholar-esque)? Perhaps the IAR requires one of their representatives to be present in the house of all dukes and gravens, and a few to serve as advisors to the Thane?

Are there different flavors of IAR? Something to like of the Catholics and Protestants in England? Is the relationship between political figures and religious ones more peaceful or more antagonist? (I'm think of Mr. I-want-to-marry-six-times-and-don't-give-a-damn-what-the-church-says).

I'm not sure I understand the break-down of the "archbishops" into elements. Does the Archbishop of Fire claim a special connection to the Fire Gods (Armeros, Etherus, and Foiros)? Or does this "fire" epithet refer to something else?


Should I make the Vardynn Resource map and list its own thread? Yae or Nay?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 December 2011, 16:35:33
Elven belief

Elves believe in Avá, humans don't. As for worshipping practices and the actual consequences of belief: There's a huge difference between the races. I've started a discussion on that a while ago in order to work out these differences out a bit (see this thread (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14581)). This all of course also affects what worship means to them.

You could call the human worship naive, as they consider the gods as the ultimate beings having their hands actively involved in all worldly affairs, so that by praying you can "swing their moods" and get them to help you. Gods are seen as initially derived from humans and turned "super-humans", thus their inherent hubris, because they think they have it in them to change the world. That's rather simply put, though.

Elves believe in Avá and the necessity that she realizes herself in Coór, and from that the Gods sprang into existence to fulfill necessary tasks to help realizing that Dream. So an elf's prayer is more a focusing of the inner self onto the basic principles/ideas which the Gods represent, rather than taking with personal gods. Elven worship on a shrine is more meditation on a certain aspect of existence, and this especially is true as far as Avá is concerned, as in Her rests the whole fate of the world. I assume there should also be shrines to Coór, because the elves need to be aware of the consequences of His existence as well.

So: Humans and elves have the Twelvern Gods in common, but worship entirely differently. Elves probably wouldn't really worship in a human temples, as humans don't really "get" the true nature of the universe according to them. They come from two entirely different sides. (More on the basic differences between humans and elves becomes apparent in my most recent story, "Beyond the Rift", BTW.)

Institutionalized Aviarian religion

It's all still not clearly defined, but there are of course orders, who take over after the Interregnum (White Knights, Order of Armeros etc.), who compete with military orders after the kingdom has received a serious blow. See the Time of Interregnum in the Timeline thread. As I already said elsewhere: We'd need to continue with Santharian history to get more depth into that.

I also would like to see more sects develop around the Twelvern faith. Not really huge branches splitting up Twelvern faith, but a few extreme developments, which might also reflect in the minor orders (example: that some decide to defend what they think is good with the sword, whatever the cost). Things like that to add more to the mix, fanatics and stuff, which make the people in the middle aware where they really stand.

Elemental archbishops

Hasn't been worked out in detail, but yes, special connection to the Fire Gods for an Archbishop of Fire would be the basic idea. Which would mean in terms of map-making: The main fire temples should be up north, in that bishop's territory. Fits somewhat to the Erpheronians with their fire-red hair and their affinity to all things war-related.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 10 December 2011, 14:45:38
What a week! Thank goodness it's Friday!

Thank you for the explanation of Elven belief! You have confirmed my suspicions, and validated my interpretation from site material. I think there may be others who have misinterpreted...

I would love for the Order of Armeros (http://www.santharia.com/people/order_of_armeros.htm) to have its "headquarters" in Cemphiria. Right now, the entry mentions only New-Santhala, Voldar, and Elsreth. However, having it in Cemphiria (or another town/city in Vardynn), would align with history (regarding the Fire Archbishop in the Clerical Age).

This also supplies something which I believe is significant--it gives religion what seems to me to be a standing army, of sorts, naturally lending a great deal of power to IAR in Vardynn.

Is there no over-arching religious figure in the region, analogous to the Pope in Rome? And if not, it seems appropriate that there should be one archbishop for each god rather than each 'element,' though there may be a 'leader' for each element (i.e.  the Archbishop of Armeros is chosen as leader by the Archbishop of Foiros and the Archbishop of Etherus). After all, it seems likely that archbishops would be chosen because of their particular connection to A god--one with whom the bishop claims he/she can commune--and it seems unlikely that one individual would share such a connection to multiple gods, many of which have conflicting qualities (i.e. Armeros and Etherus).

I therefore propose that, in Vardynn at least, the Temple of Armeros has particular influence over the governance of the province. Cemphiria houses a grand temple, constructed during the Clerical Age, from whence the Archbishop of Armeros once commended significant power (and still does, to some degree). The Thane is greatly influenced by this archbishop, not only because of the influence granted by his/her religious standing, but also because of the Knights of the Order of Armeros. While the provincial order is smaller than the governments, the number of worthy knights lent by the good relations with the Temple of Armeros is significant enough to encourage the Thane to maintain those relations.

What are your thoughts on this, Artimidor?

I would like to place some major temples to Foiros and Etherus in the region, as well. Any ideas?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 11 December 2011, 14:14:26
Quote
Should I make the Vardynn Resource map and list its own thread? Yae or Nay?
That's up to you, but I don't really feel that it's necessary. 

Quote
Elves believe in Avá, humans don't.
Do they completely reject the idea that Avá exists, or simply don't worship her?  Perhaps they think of her as a distant creator god who is not relevant to their lives? 

Quote
I also would like to see more sects develop around the Twelvern faith. Not really huge branches splitting up Twelvern faith, but a few extreme developments, which might also reflect in the minor orders (example: that some decide to defend what they think is good with the sword, whatever the cost). Things like that to add more to the mix, fanatics and stuff, which make the people in the middle aware where they really stand.
The Voidwalkers (http://www.santharia.com/people/voidwalkers.htm) sound a little like that.  Of course, having more heretical groups would be great too. 

Quote
Is there no over-arching religious figure in the region, analogous to the Pope in Rome? And if not, it seems appropriate that there should be one archbishop for each god rather than each 'element,' though there may be a 'leader' for each element (i.e.  the Archbishop of Armeros is chosen as leader by the Archbishop of Foiros and the Archbishop of Etherus). After all, it seems likely that archbishops would be chosen because of their particular connection to A god--one with whom the bishop claims he/she can commune--and it seems unlikely that one individual would share such a connection to multiple gods, many of which have conflicting qualities (i.e. Armeros and Etherus).
That's a good point.  On the other hand, having the leader chosen by only 3 people feels like it's not quite interesting enough.  More factions would mean more potential rivalries and thus more chances to come up with fun stuff.   :grin:

But maybe the discussions regarding religious beliefs and institutions should be moved to a different thread?  They do involve much more than Vardynn. 

Quote
I would like to place some major temples to Foiros and Etherus in the region, as well. Any ideas?
That's a good idea.  Do they all have to be in Vardynn though?  Nermeran is very Erpheronian too. 

However, I am also slightly concerned that religious affiliation doesn't seem to be as neat as suggested by the Clerical Age map.  Notably, Nyermersys is deep in "Fire" territory, but is strongly associated with Queprur.  Well, hopefully that will be sorted out when the political side of religion becomes more developed. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 12 December 2011, 01:54:21

RELIGION

Quote
On the other hand, having the leader chosen by only 3 people feels like it's not quite interesting enough.  More factions would mean more potential rivalries and thus more chances to come up with fun stuff.   :grin:

But maybe the discussions regarding religious beliefs and institutions should be moved to a different thread?  They do involve much more than Vardynn.

I suppose, before we get too far into discussion, it might be worth deciding whether or not this is something we're ready to flesh out at this point or if we want to wait until the timeline development reaches the Clerical Age. My goal was to confirm the influence of religion on regional politics--most specifically, this influence:

Quote
I therefore propose that, in Vardynn at least, the Temple of Armeros has particular influence over the governance of the province. Cemphiria houses a grand temple, constructed during the Clerical Age, from whence the Archbishop of Armeros once commended significant power (and still does, to some degree). The Thane is greatly influenced by this archbishop, not only because of the influence granted by his/her religious standing, but also because of the Knights of the Order of Armeros. While the provincial order is smaller than the governments, the number of worthy knights lent by the good relations with the Temple of Armeros is significant enough to encourage the Thane to maintain those relations.

However, I am open to discussing the role of religion in Santharia as a whole--though I would like to see Talia involved, if possible, given her closeness with this particular field of development...


MILITARY

Another aspect i would be interested in discussing is the military of the province. I assume the kingdom allows provinces to have standing armies/active knights. I assume the knights of a province wouldn't be connected necessarily to a certain order? Or would the order be the province itself?


RESOURCES

All right, below is an updated Resource List. It's a little more fleshed out, but still needs help. Right now the list uses both a breakdown of metals (silver, iron, etc.) and the catch-all term "metals". I assume that "metals" should probably be broken down across the board, but I'm not sure what cities would require what specific metals.


(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-4.png)

1) Vairntin
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Metals (-)
2) Phaeverton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Metal (-)
3) Caeyserton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Metal (-)
4) Aemyrton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Metal (-)
5) Erdefra
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Fish (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
9) Argammon
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt (+)
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
           
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
17) Codomma
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • Xazuran (+)
  • Burningstones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Horses (-)
20) Aberwald
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • Fish (+)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • Salt (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • Salt (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Metals (-)
           
A) Thyslan
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (+)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (+)
  • Artisan Good: Ships (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Cotton (0)
  • Silkworm (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Foodstuffs (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Horses (-)
C) Accam
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
D) Westhron
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Metals (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
E) Voldar
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Fish (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Horses (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Metals (-)
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Shellfish (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Metals (-)
  • Dyes (-)
H) Jernais
  • Salt (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Cotton/Wool (-)
  • Dyes (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Metals (-)

Goltherlon (Golgnomes)
  • Iron (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Salt (-)

Southern High Fores (Thrumgolz Dwarves)
  • Rockwool (+)
  • Granite (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Lumber (-)



Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Curgan on 13 December 2011, 02:06:56
Hey! Nice to see some good action!

Indeed the Helcrani would not have a temple of any other than Ava. In fact they have a "humanised" version of the elven beliefs. The elves among them are just like the rest of the elves in tems of worship, while  the dwarves, although they too believe in Ava have a more "material" form of religion...

Border forts -especially at the bridges- would be more a common sight at the Centoraurian-Erpheronian border. Ruined ones farther south at the Kyranian (ar the Kyranians weren't a serious match for the Centoraurians)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Curgan on 13 December 2011, 02:29:54
And to help on helcrani onomatology: they usually have place names that have meaning in their tongue.

Here is a quick one from the top of my head. Gotta check my old notes for more

HELCRANI TO ENGLISH
-gard =  -city
-garth = -guard
-wana = -gather
-gammon = -building
-roth =  (can't remember now)
-heim = -home
-bury = -tower
-domma = -keep
-lari = pass
-nesta = palace

Just one note. (If the duchies are not set on stone) I think that the Milkengradians would "demand" the island at their north to be included at their duchy as they fought very hard for it against the Erpheronians...


Title: Re: Vardýnn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 13 December 2011, 05:23:20
RELIGION (off topic)

Concerning Mina's question on Avá:

Quote
Do [humans] completely reject the idea that Avá exists, or simply don't worship her?  Perhaps they think of her as a distant creator god who is not relevant to their lives? 

I would say that humans completely reject the idea of Avá, because their creation myth should differ. That's one of the crucial points actually. What we put instead is not yet clear I think, but that in the Twelvern religion the Gods have developed from humans already is a clear indicator that it's an entirely different approach. There's no place for a Dreamer who isn't really of this world, in human religion it's all about this world.

Avá BTW has merged in human understanding with Eyasha (note: "Month of the Sleeping Dreameress" - there are only twelve months!). So humans would say: The elves just took one of their Gods and made her the main one, adding their own creation myth ideas.

Oh, Voidwalkers are nice as a sect, more don't hurt :)

On to the archbishops issue:

Archbishops per deity is ok as well, the point of our historical discussions was that there's an overarching key figure for the elements, so that we have a relatively small amount of key figures who can exert power and provide points of conflicts. Not so good if there are twelve power figures. We an call that overarching clerical elemental person any way we like, though.

However, discussions are fine, but I think all we need to know for now where we should place what temples, and everything else I would discuss later. Main objective is to get our map together, and the sooner I know where we want to place what, I can actually get to realizing it all on the map.

@Curgan: Looooong time no see, old pal! Aura +1 for showing up and giving your input!  :clap: :cool: :clap:

Hope we see you a bit more regularly around here - we could use some pointers as far as Helcrani are concerned, that's for sure. So it's great to see your list with endings, which definitely helps a good deal.

BTW: Would it be possible to work for you to work on some principle on Helcrani Nomenclature? Like we did it at the Erpheronians (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/erpheronians.htm#Nomenclature) e.g. This is important, because names of key figures should indicate their origins, and in order to progress with Santharian history we should have all those details for the various tribes.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 13 December 2011, 13:06:45
Curgan! ::gasps, cheers, and swoon in such rapid succession that they occur almost simultaneously::

I have no issue expanding Milkennon’s territory to include the island to the north (Did we name that?). Oh, I would love to hear your opinions, Curgan! So much as been discussed, but so much has still to be decided!


RELIGION

We can keep the Twelvern out of Milkengrad, but we need temples elsewhere. I would recommend a Foiros in either Jernais or Salsair (leaning toward the latter) and a Temple of Etherus in either Thyslan or Jernais. What do you all think?

Should we have other larger temples to other dieties in the province? We could always put a Jeyriall Temple in Jernais. Maybe a Baveras Temple is Westhron? A temple to Grothar in Accam? An Eyasha temple in... hm... in a province filled with Erpheronians, it’s hard to know where or how you squeeze in a Goddess of Peace...  :undecided:


I also assume my suggested politics-religion proposal for the province is all right...  :undecided:


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 13 December 2011, 21:54:40
Hi Curgan!   :wave:

Is there a difference between "-grad" and "-gard", or is one of them a misspelling of the other? 

Quote
My goal was to confirm the influence of religion on regional politics--most specifically, this influence:
Well, the idea of an Archbishop (do we have a better title for them?) being very influential in provincial politics sounds good.  The details of how the Order of Armeros fits into this I'm not so sure, but it does sound interesting.   :)

Quote
I assume the kingdom allows provinces to have standing armies/active knights.
Well, that's most likely the case for knights, since it's a noble rank (I think) in addition to being a type of soldier.  Not so sure about other types of troops though.  As far as I know, standing armies only started appearing towards the end of the medieval period.  Assuming that Santharia is supposed to resemble medieval Europe as much as possible, standing armies are probably relatively uncommon.  There's also the issue of how centralised the provinces are.  Is Vardynn centralised enough to have a Vardynnian Army (presumably answering to the Thane), or is it the Dukes and/or other nobles who actually own armies? 

By the way, I found an interesting bit of information on Wikipedia:
Quote from: Wikipedia
The practice of carrying relics into battle is a feature that distinguishes medieval warfare from its predecessors or from early modern warfare. The presence of relics was believed to be an important source of supernatural power that served both as a spiritual weapon and a form of defense; the relics of martyrs were considered by Saint John Chrysostom much more powerful than "walls, trenches, weapons and hosts of soldiers"
I don't know how common this was across Europe in general, but if I remember correctly, a book I read several years ago mentioned that the Byzantine Empire did this quite frequently.  Might be something to consider when developing military and religious practices. 

Quote
Right now the list uses both a breakdown of metals (silver, iron, etc.) and the catch-all term "metals". I assume that "metals" should probably be broken down across the board, but I'm not sure what cities would require what specific metals.
Well, I think iron is usually quite important and used for lots of things.  I would guess that it's more common for places short of iron to import iron products than raw iron though.  Copper, silver, and gold are used for money; I don't know if they have any other uses.  I can't think of any other metals that would really be needed at the moment.  Things like mithril and aurium have their uses, but they aren't exactly necessities. 

Quote
I would say that humans completely reject the idea of Avá, because their creation myth should differ. That's one of the crucial points actually. What we put instead is not yet clear I think, but that in the Twelvern religion the Gods have developed from humans already is a clear indicator that it's an entirely different approach.
Quote
Avá BTW has merged in human understanding with Eyasha
That's interesting.  I wonder how this would affect relations with Elves.  Is there anywhere I can read up on these new developments regarding the religion?  I don't think I saw anything like that in the cosmology forum. 

Quote
I have no issue expanding Milkennon’s territory to include the island to the north (Did we name that?).
It's Midlanir, I think. 

Quote
We can keep the Twelvern out of Milkengrad, but we need temples elsewhere. I would recommend a Foiros in either Jernais or Salsair (leaning toward the latter) and a Temple of Etherus in either Thyslan or Jernais. What do you all think?
To what extent do the Centoraurians share the religious attitudes of the Helcrani?  Salsair and Thyslan are Centoraurian cities, so if they're like the Helcrani religiously, they are probably not suitable locations for the temples. 

Quote
Should we have other larger temples to other dieties in the province? We could always put a Jeyriall Temple in Jernais. Maybe a Baveras Temple is Westhron? A temple to Grothar in Accam? An Eyasha temple in... hm... in a province filled with Erpheronians, it’s hard to know where or how you squeeze in a Goddess of Peace...
:lol:  Well, maybe not Eyasha.  The largest temple to Eyasha is in Caelum, so it's not exactly necessary to put another major temple in the next province.  Urtengor seems a little neglected to me though.  Maybe he could have a major temple somewhere in the province? 

There's also a major temple to Nehtor in Voldar. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 December 2011, 04:48:06
@Mina: You're looking for developments regarding religion... Well, all there really is, is the thread on the Principles of Avanian and Twelvern Belief (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14581.0.html), which I guess I've already mentioned somewhere. Aside from that there only bits and pieces to be found here and there unfortunately - an important thing in this context is the avatar concept I'd like to pursue BTW, brought up here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,13720.0.html). I'd like to continue these ideas and really get an entry or two out of these things, because the difference between human and elven religion still hasn't really made it on site - and it definitely should.

Oh, and speaking about relics: Related to them are saints - relics are often things or bones associated with saints. And that's also important for naming settlements. There are lots of places on Earth with the typical Sao, San, Saint etc., so why not have the equivalent in Santharia and have some of those. We can always think about specific legends afterwards, which probably thrived unproportionally at the time when the clerics dominated the lands...

Temples: There might be minor temples all over the place, but we'll show only the largest one anyway on the map, so we need to decide on those. A major temple on Nehtor is mentioned on site, so let's have on there then. Jernais is a bit of a hippie town, you can smell that love is in the air when you're greeted with a smile... :lol: So it might be a good place to have an Etherus temple I'd say. That would leave Foiros in Salsair, towards which you lean anyway, Rayne. Unless the Helcrani don't like it there for some reason - maybe Curgan can give some suggestions here... Anyways, a Baveras temple in Westhron would also be fine with me to have some variety.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Curgan on 14 December 2011, 08:59:32
Nice to see you too!   :grin: :cry:  :grin:

I have been off for some time, occasionally lurking for another time and now I am really glad to see that the world is evolving!

Artimidor: The Helcrani nomenclature will be on my list. I will try to gather my old notes (gotta search my backup cd's and) and find my ewuivalent to the "nomenclature template".

Rayne: The island north of Efirhal is called Midlanir.

The 12 are occasionaly worshiped in Milkengrad and there are their temples there, but not by the Helcrani (or maybe considered something like personifications of Ava's powers, if there is need to have them there as well).

The Centoraurians worshiped the 12 but after centuries with the Helcrani their beliefs became copromised a bit. My intention was to keep them with the 12, but it is not set in stone...

Mina: It is a mispelling. Grad is the "city". The equivallent to -gard is -garth

You are right about the Byzantines, but you should remember that they were very religious and considered their empire as the realm of God on Earth and the Emperor was his regent (a continuation of the Roman Pontifex Maximus, as they thought themselves as heirs and "descentants of Greeks and Romans " as the last Emperor said. That's why they had trouble with the Holy Roman Empire. A similar copyright dispute like the modern between Greece and Fyrom over the name of Macedonia).

And you are right about the name. It's Midlanir, (middle island). Took me some time to remember and then read your post.  :buck:


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 14 December 2011, 09:58:04
It suddenly strikes me that it would make very little sense for humans, or perhaps even elves, to have shrines or temples to Ava. Curgan, you mention "Ava's powers", but I don't think Ava really has any powers, not in the traditional sense. Most people visit temples looking for guidance from a god, but Ava is a bit separated from the world--she's retreated away, and she cannot consciously affect anything happening in the world. She cannot answer prayers, or give visions, or perform any sort of miracles. The elves no doubt 'worship' her out of thankfulness for what her dreams have created, and perhaps in sympathy for her sorrow, but this does not strike me as being in the nature of humans...

Perhaps I have interpreted something incorrectly, though. Artimidor can perhaps shed more light... Or maybe the Helcrani see "Ava" as a amalgamation of gods? Perhaps they practice a kind of semi-monotheistic worship that involves rolling all the gods and goddesses into one?


In terms of temples, I think Jernais is a suitable city for Etherus, and Foiros would be content to have a temple in Salsair.


Apropos saints and relics: I recall that Talia was working on a saints project. I'm hesitant to continue such a project without her, but as the conversation seems to be veering off into the religious state of Santharia, it may be worth spinning off this topic into another thread, if there's enough interest to do so. And naturally, I'm hesitant to make decisions without the historical development being ready--another place we need Talia!


I would still love comments/suggestions to the Resources list! I will work on integrating your comments, Mina. Thank you!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 16 December 2011, 00:34:30
Quote
The 12 are occasionaly worshiped in Milkengrad and there are their temples there, but not by the Helcrani (or maybe considered something like personifications of Ava's powers, if there is need to have them there as well).
Maybe they believe that the Twelve are how Ava manifests herself in her dream?  Or guardians of some sort created to look after the world? 

Quote
The Centoraurians worshiped the 12 but after centuries with the Helcrani their beliefs became copromised a bit. My intention was to keep them with the 12, but it is not set in stone...
Perhaps, due to Helcrani influence, they also worship Ava in addition to the other 12 gods?  Or maybe some of them do. 

Quote
The elves no doubt 'worship' her out of thankfulness for what her dreams have created, and perhaps in sympathy for her sorrow, but this does not strike me as being in the nature of humans...
Hmm, why not?  It might not be called worship, but having some sort of ritual show of veneration doesn't seem that strange to me if they believe in Ava.  And that's assuming that the Humans who worship Ava share the belief that she doesn't consciously affect the world. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 16 December 2011, 13:38:31
I realized the only way to help keep the religion topic from completely eating my Vardınn thread was to make a discussion for Santharian Religion, so that can be found here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,15127). I'm not really used to leading discussions of this type, so please be patient with me!

I have tried to integrate Mina's comments, though I think so did so rather haphazardly.  :buck: Please take a look and let me know if anything looks amiss! I think it's slowly beginning to form into something that looks like a complete list, but there's a lot that still needs to be discussed/worked out--like what cities will need marble? Where will gold/silver/copper be sent, and how will coining money be handled?

I'm particularly concerned about the latter. After all, something like currency seems like it should be strictly regulated! Any thoughts on this?

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-4.png)

1) Vairntin
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Iron (-)
2) Phaeverton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Iron (-)
3) Caeyserton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Iron (-)
4) Aemyrton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • iron (-)
5) Erdefra
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • iron (-)
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Fish (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • iron (-)
  • [...]
9) Argammon
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt (+)
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • [...]
           
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
17) Codomma
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • Xazuran (+)
  • Burningstones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Horses (-)
20) Aberwald
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • iron (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • Fish (+)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • Salt (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • Salt (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Iron (-)
           
A) Thyslan
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (+)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (+)
  • Artisan Good: Ships (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Cotton (0)
  • Silkworm (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Foodstuffs (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
C) Accam
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Marble (+)
  • [...]
D) Westhron
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Iron (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Marble (+)
  • [...]
E) Voldar
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Fish (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Horses (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Shellfish (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • Dyes (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
H) Jernais
  • Salt (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Cotton/Wool (-)
  • Dyes (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)

Goltherlon (Golgnomes)
  • Iron (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Salt (-)

Southern High Fores (Thrumgolz Dwarves)
  • Rockwool (+)
  • Granite (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Lumber (-)



Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 18 December 2011, 09:42:12
A quick question:  What do the +, 0, and - icons stand for?  I'm assuming + means they have it in abundance or produce it, and - means it is scarce.  I can't, however, figure out what the 0 is.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 18 December 2011, 13:18:17
0 means that they have enough for their own needs, and so don't need to import it, nor do they have enough to export it to other areas who need that particular good.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 19 December 2011, 13:48:57
Whew! OK, this should be more or less complete. I still need help with the issue of coining money!

Also, this list has finally gotten to the length which exceeds the post character limit, so I'm breaking it up into two posts. Please let me know if I've left something out!

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-4.png)

1) Vairntin
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (-)
  • Iron (-)
2) Phaeverton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Iron (-)
3) Caeyserton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • Iron (-)
4) Aemyrton
  • Fish (+)
  • Jams/Jellies (+)
  • Cheese (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wood Products (-)
  • iron (-)
5) Erdefra
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • iron (-)
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Fish (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (-)
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (-)
  • iron (-)
  • [...]
           
9) Argammon
  • Fish (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt (+)
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • iron (-)
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Horses (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • [...]
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (-)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (-)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Livestock (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Livestock (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
           
17) Codomma
  • Livestock (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • Xazuran (+)
  • Burningstones (+)
  • Iron (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (-)
  • Horses (-)
20) Aberwald
  • Fish (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • iron (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • Fish (+)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Livestock
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • Salt (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • Salt (+)
  • Silkel (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Salt (-)
  • Iron (-)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 19 December 2011, 13:51:55
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/Pimiko_photos/Vardynn_NewCities_TradeRoutes_Numberd_w500-4.png)

A) Thyslan
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (-)
  • Marble (-)
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (+)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (+)
  • Artisan Good: Ships (+)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Cotton (0)
  • Silkworm (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Foodstuffs (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (-)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (-)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (-)
  • Marble (-)
C) Accam
  • Fish (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (-)
  • Crops (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Marble (-)
  • [...]
D) Westhron
  • Fish (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Marble (-)
  • [...]
           
E) Voldar
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (+)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (-)
  • Marble (-)
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • Silkel (+)
  • Lumber (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Fish (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Horses (0)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (-)
  • Salt (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (-)
  • Marble (-)
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • Fish (+)
  • Crops (+)
  • Livestock (+)
  • Wool (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Horses (+)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (+)
  • Shellfish (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Iron (-)
  • Dyes (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (-)
  • Marble (-)
H) Jernais
  • Salt (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (+)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (+)
  • Crops (0)
  • Silkel (0)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (-)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (-)
  • Lumber (-)
  • Cotton/Wool (-)
  • Dyes (-)
  • Horses (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Iron (-)
  • Gold (-)
  • Silver (-)
  • Copper (-)
  • Marble (-)
           
Goltherlon (Golgnomes)
  • Iron (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Dyes (+)
  • Burning Stones (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Salt (-)

Southern High Fores (Thrumgolz Dwarves)
  • Rockwool (+)
  • Granite (+)
  • Coal (+)
  • Gold (+)
  • Silver (+)
  • Copper (+)
  • Marble (+)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Artisan Good: Cloth (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Crops (-)
  • Fish (-)
  • Lumber (-)

Boldar Forest (Aellenrhim)
  • Artisan Goods: Cloth (+)
  • Dyes (0)
  • Granite (0)
  • Artisan Good: Wood Products (0)
  • Artisan Good: Pottery (0)
  • Artisan Good: Armor (0)
  • Artisan Good: Jewelry (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Livestock (0)
  • Wool (0)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Fish (0)
  • Crops (0)
  • Iron (0)
  • Salt (-)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 19 December 2011, 14:13:49
An aura from me Rayne for all the hard work you are putting into this.

Dek


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 19 December 2011, 23:01:23
Wow, that's quite impressive.  You missed putting a value for granite in the Bolder section though.  Is the Thaelon involved in the trading in any way?  It has some Aellenrhim, doesn't it? 

What about coining money do you need help with?  It's not something I'm familiar with, but I could try looking around some information. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 19 December 2011, 23:13:06
Thanks, guys! It really wasn't so hard, and a lot of this is fairly haphazard, in any case Granite should be (0)--I will go back and add it to the post to avoid posting all that mess again!

I'm curious about how the coining of money is regulated. Things might get problematic if each province could produce as much coined money as they wished. Perhaps there's some Santharian Finance Minster in New Santhala who directs how much money each province is allowed to produce in a year in order to moderate inflation? Or is coinage even produce in provinces? Perhaps it's all produced in New Santhala and carted off to each provincial capital?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 20 December 2011, 01:16:37
From what I can tell, the value of medieval coins were tied to the value of the metals they were made from, and how much of that metal they contained.  Regulation was apparently focused on the metal content of the coins.  Interestingly, it seems that medieval coins tended to decrease in value over time as the regulated amount tended to get smaller and smaller (apparently it increased profits or something for the lords and others involved in regulating and minting the coins), which would then motivate the creation of new types of coins that contained greater amounts of that metal (and hence had higher value).  It all looks pretty complicated and I'm not sure if I got everything right. 

Anyway, having all coins be produced in New Santhala is probably too impractical considering the size of Santharia.  The coins will be vulnerable to bandits and such too while they're being transported to the provinces.  Based on what's written in the Ranks and Titles entry, I don't think the central government of Santharia is powerful enough to have a finance minister either, or at least one that is particularly effective.  Well, the central government might issue some coins of its own, but I would guess that many local authorities have the power to do that too; Thanes, Dukes, and maybe some of the more powerful Gravens. 

There is a very old Santharian Currency entry that describes a unified monetary system introduced by Santhros, but I'm not sure it could have lasted to the present time.  Besides needing a strong central government to enforce it (which Santharia does not seem to have), there's also the fact that the more recently developed history has Santharia breaking up for quite a while, which should at least create plenty of new local currencies even if the old unified currencies did not fall out of use. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 20 December 2011, 10:14:19
You are fantastic, Mina! You must be an academic at heart--you are so good at collecting relevant information.

It does seem fairly complicated. While there may not be a centralized government strong enough to regulate the minting, I would suppose that perhaps the provincial governments may be strong enough for this kind of regulation? Given what I currently have down regarding politics--including annual meetings and whatnot--perhaps it may be reasonable that the province regulates its own coinage?

This also might fit nicely into what's already on the site. From what I understand, the currency is more or less set (i.e. sans, silverbards, ods, etc.), but there are provincial variations with regards to the faces printed on the coins themselves. This is already partially done for Vardınn. The provincial variations helps to maintain some kind of consistency across the kingdom at least in regards to names (if not exact values), while also differentiating the coins, allowing merchants to accept or refuse coins from other provinces.

So perhaps we might say that, from Voldar, the quantity of coinage to be minted in a year is strictly regulated by the Ministers of Finance. The amount of coinage created per year is often the same, and responsibility for creating it is distributed among select cities, including, say, Voldar, Thyslan, Salsair, Cemphiria, and Milkengrad. Maybe Jernais, too. What do you think, Mina?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 20 December 2011, 13:01:21
Actually I simply searched on Google and Wikipedia, which aren't very academic.   :buck:

Provincial governments might or might not be able to enforce a single currency, depending on the province.  Xaramon probably can't; the Dukes, and Ximax, probably all issue their own currencies.  Vardynn looks like it might be able to.  It needs more than annual meetings though, I think.  Specifically, some way to prevent local authorities from issuing their own currencies.  It's basically a law enforcement thing, I guess. 

I didn't see much mention of quantity being regulated, and I'm guessing it's not that necessary, especially for the more common coins.  Since their values are based on their content, they shouldn't change too much even if the quantity of coins in circulation is changed.  Like I said, it's probably the content that is regulated.  I imagine there would be inspectors going around to the mints and performing tests on the coins and such. 

Possibly, different cities or authorities might have different permissions regarding the types of coins they can mint?  So for example, perhaps just about every city in the province can mint Sans, but only Voldar and Milkengrad can produce Goldbards? 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 20 December 2011, 13:30:38
Would the quantity of coins being minted in any way affect inflation? Or can we assume that because there's probably more or less growth in all areas, that value remains relatively constant?

I can see there being officials from the Ministry of Finance going around and checking to make sure standards are met, specifically in terms of content/density. Perhaps they go around with precise weights/counterbalances to ensure the coins are of precisely the right weight.

I also like the idea of giving only some cities the right to create certain types of coins. I assume something like this:

Jernais san, su, erg
Salsair: san, su, erg, od, hack
Cemphiria: san, su, erg, od, hack
Voldar: san, su, erg, od, hack, w'aer, nune
Milkengrad: san, su, erg, od, hack, w'aer, nune
Westhron: san, su
Accam: san
Thyslan: san, su, erg, od

Also, in terms of law enforcement, I assume a standing army, or at least an order of knights, would be enough to convince dukes/gravens to follow the rules. I know we have several orders of knights, but I assume that the province and even, perhaps, some Dukes and Nobel Houses might have knights. I'm really not sure how all that works...


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 20 December 2011, 15:42:08
I think I mentioned something in ... I believe it was the entry on my Tedius Kyranian Kyrattin Researcher something about a tax collector or something warning others about staying at said tedius researcher's farm because of how boring it was, or something along those lines. That was just something completely off the top of my head I came up with.

Not sure if that helps in any way ... but there you have it.

Additionally, I think for the sake of making it easy for us, and not making our heads spin too much, saying that inflation remains fairly constant might be a good thing to say. I do work with finances in real life ... or at least I am trained to work with finances in real life, and all of that stuff makes my head spin in real life. :D

Dek


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 20 December 2011, 23:23:27
Well, I don't know for sure, but I think that unlike modern currencies, inflation probably has more to do with quantity of metal available than quantity of coins minted.  After all, they are basically precisely measured and shaped pieces of a particular type of metal.  But yes, we probably shouldn't be worrying too much about inflation, at least for now. 

Many of the types of coins on the Santharian Currency page are apparently relatively uncommon.  Based on the little information there, I would suggest that Sans, Copperbards, Silverbards, and Goldbards are the only ones produced regularly, with the others being either obsolete or seldom produced.  Then again, maybe the reason they are uncommon is that few places produce them, and Vardynn just happens to be one of those places.   :undecided:

A standing army feels kind of iffy to me.  It's borderline plausible, I guess.  Anyway, enforcement is more about having troops loyal to the Thane than having a standing army.  Religious military orders would be one source, assuming that they support the Thane.  Loyal Dukes, Gravens, and other vassals are another.  If the Thane has any land he rules directly, rather than through a vassal, he could also impose a levy, although the amount of troops obtained that way might not be much unless he rules a lot of land directly.  There's also mercenaries, which were apparently very common in medieval times.  Since the Thane's territory includes Voldar, which is probably one of the richer cities, he probably has more money to spend on mercenaries than most other lords in the province. 


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 December 2011, 05:02:39
Just a gentle reminder: All I really need for a map is where towns, fields, mountains, rivers, castles, temples are etc. If we go into lots and lots of details concerning religion, resources, coin minting etc. I will have to put off working on the map indefinitely. We should make clear priorities. I will mainly work on map elements anyway during my Christmas vacations, so that I can update the tutorial with it and build a much larger collection than I have at the moment. But in foreseeable time details of various map parts should be available so that I can continue with that - map making takes its time anyway, so it's important that sections are clear when I have time to get to them.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 22 December 2011, 07:10:07
Hey Artimidor--My apologies! I didn't realize there were still lingering issues regarding the maps. I know that the location of castles, rivers, and towns have already been worked out (on previous maps). Is there any more we need to decide regarding temples?

I remember you mentioning that you would use your best judgment to fill in what hadn't been specified--and I trust your judgment!--but if there are places you aren't sure of, or more I can do, please let me know.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 December 2011, 02:19:21
Not sure to which maps exactly you're referring to, Rayne - but the maps I'm looking for is how Judy did it with her Fores duchy. There might now be a rivers map, and temples or castle locations might be mentioned somewhere in the posts, but as far as I know we don't have anything like Judy did for other duchies. We don't need that information for all duchies at once, but duchy by duchy we should try to work on details. and get a rough map done, which then can be realized properly based on the sketch.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 24 December 2011, 08:39:09
I don't have the knowledge or resources to create a map like Judith did. I can do red dots, like I did with cities and forts on the maps I've already posted, but I don't have the knowledge to create something with the same icons and whatnot that Judith has made. Is something of this caliber required to create the maps? To be honest, I'm really not that particular--especially with regards to the location of mines and castles/forts. It would all be conjecture on my part to which I have no real opinion.

I can create a map with red dots, but with the craze of the season, it may not be for another few weeks. I know you were going to work on this map during the Christmas break, though. I apologize, Artimidor. I thought all of this was already discussed and done. I didn't realize there was more I needed to provide to you..  :undecided:


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 24 December 2011, 09:47:16
I just did mine that way for fun and practice.   Art will doubtless have to redo it all anyhow!    I am now on vacation though and am going to be learning aobut better mapmaking!


Title: Re: Vardýnn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 December 2011, 16:08:37
Red dots of course suffice perfectly well, Rayne. All I really need is something that indicates objects (towns, villages, mountains, temples etc.), and where it is clear what the symbol you use represents. If you already have a name for specific places, feel free to add that in.

P.S. Building a larger library of map elements and textures goes first before I get to further parts of the map. This is my main goal to achieve in my vacations - to make lots more elements I can then use efficiently later. In the meantime the rough design of certain duchies could be done as far as that is possible, and then I can use that layout and make the real thing out of it!


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Smee on 15 January 2012, 06:27:52
I've just scanned through this looking at random bits (mainly Arti's map - wooo  :thumbup:) and I'm overwhelmed at the awesomeness. I simply can't give enough aura's out ;-)

Fascinating project and I look forward to finding the time to read this thread in detail.



Title: Re: Vardýnn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 January 2012, 17:25:06
Hello again, Smee! :wave:

I see you plan to finally get that promised map done in 2012, that's great to hear! As I remember you already got a firm grip on map making back in the days when you made the Scattersand Shoals map! The by now updated map tutorial chapters should be very helpful in the endeavour to get your map done... Which one did you plan to do BTW? - At any rate there will be some more additions forthcoming to the tutorial and especially the map elements and textures will be updated constantly :)

Here are some previews of what will be contained in the next map elements file BTW:

Some new buildings:
(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/map_elements3.jpg)

Some mountains:
(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/map_elements2.jpg)

And a bunch of new trees as well:
(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/map_elements1.jpg)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Smee on 15 January 2012, 18:33:43
Xaramon is what I've started, but I'll be watching this thread and if the motivation to do a province overwhelms me I'll let you know  :buck:


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 17 January 2012, 14:26:09
Eep! I've been terribly remiss with this. Can you send me the map I should be using to mark the locations of things? You do not need the rivers/lakes or swamps, right? Since I already sent the layer for those? It's just everything else--the cities, fortresses, etc.?


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 19 January 2012, 04:04:32
Well, you posted a map yourself at page no. 8, Rayne, named "vardynn_monster_PhysicalMap.jpg". So it's already resting somewhere on your hard drive. This is actually the monstersized map where you can cut out a part and mark what you'd like to include in the final map. The rivers layer doesn't need to be on it, but it doesn't hurt either. Feel free to mark whatever you like on it - these things will have priority to be integrated.


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 06 July 2012, 03:35:56
As there isn't that much action going on at the boards, I'll put my energy into continuing the Vardınn map a bit. I have at least a sketch by Judy showing the region with the dwarven settlements, so I'll see to make some progress there in the next days :)


Title: Re: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 06 July 2012, 03:41:08
 :thumbup: