Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Languages and Runes => Topic started by: Rayne (Alýr) on 18 January 2012, 12:40:07



Title: A few Styrash Inquiries
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 18 January 2012, 12:40:07
Just FYI, I'll probably just use this to post various questions I have as I have them. I've begun trying to more active use this language, and so undoubtedly there will be occasions where I'm not sure how to say what I have in mind, and will need the help of the experts (Mina and Artimidor!).


1. What declination do the primary 'subjects' of free modifiers take? My guess is dative, but I don't really know...

"Styrát nó Henryím, sá valturás(í) fá só cálís." (He is Henry, the keeper of the land.)


2. Do all subjects need an article? Sometimes I'm not quite sure if one is needed. In English, we tend to be relatively lacks with them (i.e. some times you just don't need them--"I saw cows in fields eating grass")

"Reollaiá () scálím quís, isyroró." (Give your blade, friend.)


3. Is Mina's pronoun table anywhere on the site? I can't see to find it, but I use it all the time (I have to go back to the boards to find it). It's extremely helpful!


Title: Re: A few Styrash Inquiries
Post by: Mina on 18 January 2012, 13:45:25
1. If I'm not mistaken, "Henry" and "the keeper of the land" are in a relation known as apposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apposition).  I don't know how case-marking languages usually deal with it, but my guess would be that they take the same case.  So for example, if "Henry" was nominative, then "keeper" is probably nominative too. 

If I remember correctly, you knew some Japanese?  How would it translate a sentence like the example you gave?  It's sometimes considered a case-marking language, so maybe it could provide some useful ideas. 

2. Proper nouns and pronouns probably don't, I guess.  There is more than one issue here. 

In the first example, "cows" and "fields" are plural and indefinite, which English doesn't have an article for, but Styrash does.  So in Styrash you would use "enh" for both of them.  You could think of it as English having a sort of invisible article for plural indefinite nouns.  As for "grass", I think it's being used as a mass noun.  No idea if Styrash makes the mass noun/count noun distinction.  If I had to guess, I'd say it probably uses the plural indefinite article too. 

In the second example, the genitive ending in English ('s) seems to turn the possessor into an article of the possessed noun.  Compare "the blade" to phrases like "your blade" or "Rayne's blade".  I don't know if this happens with the genitive in other languages.  But English can also express possession with the construction "(possessed) of (possessor)".  That might be a better way to translate the Styrash genitive, or at least the way I used it in the entry.  So I guess what I'm saying is that, the way I use Styrash, both possessor and possessed need articles unless they belong to classes of words that don't need them (ie. pronouns and proper nouns).  Of course, you could define your own rules for using them; that's part of the reason I kept mentioning dialects in the entry. 

3. Apparently not.  I guess it's one of the parts that haven't been uploaded yet.  There's still a few of those. 


Title: Re: A few Styrash Inquiries
Post by: Irid alMenie on 19 January 2012, 01:43:21
Thought I'd jump in, though I've only just started thinking about Styrash, thanks to Rayne ;)

Mostly regarding the first question - I know czech, which uses cases. If I take a similar sentence (just because I'm not sure about some of the words): This is Henry, owner of the house > you'd say "To je Henry, majitel domu" making it both nominative.


Title: Re: A few Styrash Inquiries
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 19 January 2012, 04:41:53
1) Aha! So perhaps the appositive takes on the same case as whatever it's marking. So because Henry is accusative (Henryím), then the appositive (we'll say the antecedent) is also accusative (valturásthím). This actually makes a lot of sense. So, for example:

Pharsíti nó ách Boldarthé, só lonó fá só Aellenrhimís. (He traveled toward Boldar, the forest of the Aellenrhim.)

Because "the forest of the Aellenrhim" (só lonó fá só Aellenrhimís) modifies Boldar (Boldarthé), it takes on the same declination--in this case, the ablative.

And Japanese wouldn't help; they don't decline their nouns, but rather use particles to delineate a noun in context. But not always. In casual conversation, and even in writing nowadays, things get kind of randomly added. In old-school times, names were strings with "of" ("no") [You see this a lot in the names of old-school Shinto Gods] which actually etymologically is kind of interesting when you compare to day, but regardless--a lot of the names are just collections of morphemes bundled together.



2) Yeah--like I said, we get somewhat lazy in English. Indefinite plural article doesn't exist, and article for definite plural nouns are kind of optional ("The cows in the fields" or just "Cows in fields"). I'll assume that ALL nouns--unless they're pronouns or proper nouns--require an article (though some proper nouns may take an article, as in the example above: "The Aellenrhim"). And yes, in English, the possessor replaces an article (English does a lot of silly things). So, in conclusion, the Styrash would need to be:

"Reollaiá só scálím quís, isyroró" or "Reollaiá én scálím quís", depending on context.

One tangentially related question: I assume that in many possessive/genitive cases, the fá is optional... so you can say "só lón fá só Aellenrhimís" or "só lón só Aellenrhimís" (the same difference as "The forest of the Aellenrhim" and "The Aellenrhim's forest"). I'm assuming, though, that both possessor and possessed require an article. Sound correct?



3) WHAT?! ... j/k :P No worries. It's just such a helpful table. I'm really glad you made that up, Mina--I reference it ALL the time.


And yes, Irid is definitely one of the 4 most Styrash-fluent Santharians we have! And she's learning so quickly!


Title: Re: A few Styrash Inquiries
Post by: Irid alMenie on 19 January 2012, 06:05:11
Yes! A pronoun table is exactly what I need *goes to look*


Title: Re: A few Styrash Inquiries
Post by: Mina on 19 January 2012, 14:02:16
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Because "the forest of the Aellenrhim" (só lonó fá só Aellenrhimís) modifies Boldar (Boldarthé), it takes on the same declination--in this case, the ablative.
It's actually "declension" (I make that mistake a lot too  :buck:), but otherwise, I think so. 

Regarding the original example "He is Henry" though, apparently "Henry" should be nominative too (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,5073.0.html).  I don't know how common this is in general, but Artimidor apparently intends Styrash to work that way, and the Czech example above seems to exhibit this feature too. 

For Japanese, I heard that some of the particles are sometimes regarded as case markers.  Supposedly, "ga" is nominative, "o" is accusative, "no" is genitive, and there are several others.  But I only have a vague idea of how they're used, so I can't really comment. 

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"Reollaiá só scálím quís, isyroró" or "Reollaiá én scálím quís", depending on context.
Sort of, I guess.  The second one I would interpret more as "Give a blade that belongs to you", which seems a little different from your original example, but in the right context I guess it could make sense too. 

Quote
One tangentially related question: I assume that in many possessive/genitive cases, the fá is optional... so you can say "só lón fá só Aellenrhimís" or "só lón só Aellenrhimís" (the same difference as "The forest of the Aellenrhim" and "The Aellenrhim's forest"). I'm assuming, though, that both possessor and possessed require an article. Sound correct?
Having both a genitive case and a possessive particle seems oddly redundant.  I tried to explain it by putting the following line in the entry to imply that "fá" is not found in all Styrash dialects:
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In some Styrásh dialects, possessors do not take the genitive case. Instead, a preposition is used to express possession, much like the way Tharian does it.
Your suggestion seems valid too; as you point out, English itself does something similar.  It's apparently quite uncommon in other languages though. 


Title: Re: A few Styrash Inquiries
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 20 January 2012, 14:10:07
Regarding the original example "He is Henry" though, apparently "Henry" should be nominative too (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,5073.0.html).  I don't know how common this is in general, but Artimidor apparently intends Styrash to work that way, and the Czech example above seems to exhibit this feature too. 

Oh! Interesting! I assume this is only with "styrán", and not applicable with any other verbs...?


Quote
For Japanese, I heard that some of the particles are sometimes regarded as case markers.  Supposedly, "ga" is nominative, "o" is accusative, "no" is genitive, and there are several others.  But I only have a vague idea of how they're used, so I can't really comment. 

Correct! Particles follow the nouns the declense (I don't think I've conjugated that right...  :buck: I'm declining my method of conjugating declension!  :D). So if you want hambaagaa (hamburger) to be your direct object/accusative, you throw "o" after it. Time is marked with "ni" (occasionally), place is marked with "de" (most of the time).

And of course "wa" is used for emphasis, sometimes tacked on to the particle ("ie dewa tabemashita" [I ate at home] would place special emphasis on the fact you were at home) and sometimes replacing it entirely ("Watashi ga hambaagaa wo tabemashita" [I ate a hamburger] would place special emphasis on the fact you ate a hamburger).

I don't think the Japanese structure is as applicable to Styrash--though it is the language upon which I based Gnomish. (Now there's a language that needs some working...)


Title: Re: A few Styrash Inquiries
Post by: Mina on 21 January 2012, 00:19:28
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Oh! Interesting! I assume this is only with "styrán", and not applicable with any other verbs...?
I mentioned "become" as well, I think.  There might be others as well, but those two are probably the ones most likely to come up. 

Quote
I don't think the Japanese structure is as applicable to Styrash--though it is the language upon which I based Gnomish. (Now there's a language that needs some working...)
Yeah, I was just thinking that looking at another language that marks case might inspire something.  Speaking of Gnomish, are you still working on it?