Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Languages and Runes => Topic started by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 August 2005, 08:53:00



Title: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 August 2005, 08:53:00
In Northern Sarvonia the orcs have a common tongue to communicate with each other the so-called Kh'om'chr'om. With thousands of dialects this language is often necessary even between related tribes.

It consists of hard grunting sounds and hissing, sounding cruel and unforgiving to other races. It is as hard to learn as to master a life in most orcish societies.

Vocabulary we have so far:


Tharian-Orcish

A
Archer(s) = Ngangaz
Attack! = Rrrak!

B
Bearded, hairy = Zrovkya
bite, biting, to bite = hnk
bring, bringing, to bring = mnt

C
Cave(s) = Gob (Goboc = tribe, also known as Goblins)
cease, stop = H'rrimt
Cursed, the = Ghun

D
declare war, declaring war, to declare war = b'rak
Distance, future = khalon
do, doing, to do = Rrt

E
eat, eating, to eat = ong

F
Fangs = M'ruk
Female = Cha
fight, fighting, to fight = khq
Future, distance = khalon

G
Good = Kroch
Guard = Haz

H
Hairy, bearded = Zrovkya
have, having, to have = rat
High, noble, worthy = Ashz
hit, hitting, to hit = Arq
Horse = H'rok

M
Milk of horse (lit). An alcoholic drink made from fermented mare's milk. = Yrrlahrok
'Mount Oshter' = Oshter (Oshter'oc = tribe)
move, moving, to move = ogm
Music = B'korra

N
Nap'tyr = (thought to be general word indicating action or behavior)
Negative form = m
Noble, High, Worthy = Ashz (Ashz'oc = tribe)

O
of = Ar
Ogre Berserk(s) = Harach-me
Orc(s) = oc

P
Plain/prairie/grassland/steppe = Rhom (Rhom'oc = tribe)

R
'Red Fields, the' = Mhun
Rock, stone = Ph'ragh

S
see, seeing, to see = Uon
Shaman = Uon'kh'al'on
Shielbearer(s) = Goruck
Skirmisher(s) = Noruck-chmer

T
Tomb(s) = Resz
True = Losh (Losh'oc = tribe)

V
VerminHumanelfdwarf rownieeveryone not orcish = Ch'ron-P'thok

W
Warg(s) = Morgur
Wargrider(s) = Rochock
Warrior = Uckzuck
Worthy, noble, high = Ashz
Worthy Warriors = Ashzuck



Orcish-Tharian

A
Ar = of
Arq = hit, hitting, to hit
Ashz = Noble, High, Worthy (Ashz'oc = tribe)
Ashzuck = Worthy Warriors

B
B'korra = music
b'rak = declare war, declaring war, to declare war

C
Cha = female
Ch'ron-P'thok = VerminHumanelfdwarf rownieeveryone not orcish

G
Ghun = the Cursed
Gob = Cave(s) (Goboc = tribe, also known as Goblins)
Goruck = Shielbearer(s)

H
Harach-me = Ogre Berserk(s)
Haz = Guard
hnk = bite, biting, to bite
H'rok = horse
H'rrimt = stop, cease

K
Khalon = distance, future
khq = fight, fighting, to fight
Kroch = good

L
Losh = true (Losh'oc = tribe)

M
m= a negative
Mhun = 'the Red Fields'
mnt = bring, bringing, to bring
Morgur = Warg(s)
M'ruk = fangs

N
Nap'tyr = (thought to be general word indicating action or behavior)
Ngangaz = Archer(s)
Noruck-chmer = Skirmisher(s)

O
oc = orcorcs

ogm = move, moving, to move
ong = eat, eating, to eat
Oshter = 'Mount Oshter' (Oshter'oc = tribe)

P
Ph'ragh = stone, rock

R
rat = have, having, to have
Resz = Tomb(s)
Rhom = plain/prairie/grassland/steppe (Rhom'oc = tribe)
Rochock = Wargrider(s)
Rrt = do, doing, to do

U
Uckzuck = Warrior
Uon = see, seeing, to see
Uon'kh'al'on = Shaman

Y
Yrrlahrok = (lit) milk of horse. An alcoholic drink made from fermented mare's milk.

Z
Zrovkya = hairy, bearded


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 8/21/05 16:55


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 22 August 2005, 09:11:00
More things to add:

K'arq = attacker ("the one who hits")
Arq'u = defender ("the one that is being hit")
Mar = Wolf
Y = small, young, weak
Y'oc = orcling

General info:
K' - before a verb indicates personal subject
'u - behind the verb indicates object or thing being acted upon.
m - a negative (to be put before a word)
Y - to make things smaller, younger, weaker when put before the word

Examples:

K'marq'u - I won't hit you, I'm not hitting you (lit. I no hit you) Of course, this can also mean "He isn't hitting her." or "They haven't hit anything!" * The Kuglimz bard and current orcen expert F'ash postulates that the additional meanings possible here are conveyed by context and possibly by gestures or other non-verbal signals.

K'b'rak'u - "We declare war on you!" (lit. 'We fight you!")

K'mar hnk y'oc'u -  "The wolf bit the baby." (lit. "subject-wolf bite baby-object")

K'm'y! - "I'm not a weakling!"



Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 23 February 2006, 17:27:00
New words from the orcish religion thread:

Ahnbrak = Mythical first war (lit. The first declaration of war)
Kahnuck = Orcish god of war (lit. The first warrior)
Ahn = first
Kahnucktscha = the name of their religion (lit. the word of K'ahn'uck)
Tscha = word

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

Need help with your new Character?
~> Click Here <~



Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Eatherion on 10 October 2006, 07:46:06
Nevermind :)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 03 December 2007, 11:08:39
A few I came up with(mostly by compounding words) More to come at a later date.
Al(a) god(ess)
Orcal Godking.  Leader of the orcs
Oro old Orc of Oro True Orcs- Follow the Old way.
Sophronia Foresighted One
Alala- Wargodess (feminine of Warlord)
uck suffix denoting an occupation involving combat(warrior)
Nt to take away (an object)
AshHaz Elite Guard
Eme-ycha Fire Daughter
Emesz fire
Ycha literally little woman.  Daughter, girl
Mashz literally unhonorable. Used as scum or barbaric as seen when describing Losh-oc


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 06 March 2008, 05:48:17
Whoa whoa - what are you doing with Sophronia and Alala being Orcish words?  :shocked:   I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't even be able to pronounce 'Sophronia'!  Were those supposed to be in a different thread, or do you have a reasoning for that?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 23 May 2008, 23:31:25
Just discovered that we do have an orcish word for blood--"Tlor", from the Squillfung entry, only somehow it never got compiled.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 23 May 2008, 23:37:01
Hey...can I use that word for my disease? Ghun Tlor...sounds orcen to me!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 23 May 2008, 23:41:53
Yup, see my comment under your disease entry.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 28 May 2008, 04:52:40
New orcish word:  Ha'akh--meaning tall, long or high, depending on context.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 30 May 2008, 03:18:14
I've just adden the name of the Giant's brother in my Ironwood entry. I've called him Ha'acho Ha'k, which means roughly The Sword Maker.

Ha'acho  -  make(r), build(er)

Ha'k  -  sword  (therefore a longsword is Ha'akh Ha'k)

Hope you like 'em.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 22 June 2008, 18:32:15
Some more suggestions for words. Some were invented, some are based on Klingon (which sounds very similar), and some, believe it or not, came out of the IKEA furniture catalogue!

MOK
NOK
PORACK  -  Feast. Also used as the name of a haggis-like meal, served on special occasions
BORA  -  Feet, foot
DORA  -  Hands, hand
AKA  -  Stomach
BURKA
BATA - Any striking/clubbing weapon.
BATUK  -  used by Rookie to mean plant, weed, grass etc. Anything that isn't a tree.
TULAK  -  Large animal, beast (Horse, Thunderfoot etc)
GOSHAK
TAK  -  Boar, pig
G'THAZAG CHA
GOL'KOSH
LOK'TAR
OGAR
THROM'KA
MOKLOK


Feel free to use or discard as necessary.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Smee on 23 June 2008, 18:14:37
Quote
and some, believe it or not, came out of the IKEA furniture catalogue!

 :rolling:  Oh with you, I believe it!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Rookie Brownbark on 02 February 2009, 03:38:47
Do we have anything which would mean plant/foliage?  I'm trying to make an orcen name for my Savage Mushroom and I was thinking of using "k'arg" (attacker) and somehow making it into "Plant who attacks/hits".  That style-o'-thing.  Unless anyone has any more creative ideas of course!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Lionhorse on 04 February 2009, 06:24:50
I recently come up with an orkish march, but in Santharia there are some words, which do not exist in Kh'omchr'om. What should I do, invent missing words on my own and put them into the march's lyrics?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 04 February 2009, 07:36:20
@ Rookie. I've just given Talia a new word for weed or grass, but the Orcs tend to use it to describe any plant which isn't a tree. Batuk. This would make your mushroom K'arg'Batuk (Attacking-plant). (My as yet unwritten grammar rules state that the apostrophe is used to denote where two words are used as one, or where two words have been shortened and used as one) Hope that helps, Rooks.

@ Lionhorse. Glad to see that you have taken up my challenge, Lionhorse. I suggest that you take a look a couple of posts up from here. I have given a list of possible new words which just need meanings. You could select from there. Or you could create your own, but either Alysse or I would need to see them before you used them, to ensure that they are in keeping with the Kh'omchr'om. Good luck, my friend, and I await the results of your efforts eagerly.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 04 February 2009, 08:17:06
I love the names--and being an IKEA shopper, recognize some of them!   :rofl:

Perhaps I could ask Art to re-post my attempt at a orcish war song to give Lionhorse an idea of what can be done?  The recording wasn't site-worthy but it's still pretty cool, methinks, and conveys the idea of the guttural, throat-clearing sound of Kh'omchr'om nicely.


Alysse


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 04 February 2009, 09:35:08
Okay, Lionhorse, I emailed you with my orcish war song, but I didn't send the words, so here they are.

Orcish war song (often sung while marching to battle, or to stir up the troops)


Brrak!  Mashz ch'ron-p'thok

Krrak!  Ghun arqu!

Krrak!  Mashz ch'ron-p'thok

Kmnt b'korra kresz!


Translation

[We] declare war!  [On] the unworthy enemy (lit. vermin or non/orc)

Attack the cursed defender!

Attack the unworthy enemy!

[We] celebrate (lit. bring music to) [their] tombs!

One important thing to remember about orcish, is that most subtleties in the language are conveyed by gesture.  Thus "B'rrak!", the first word in this song could mean one of the following:

I declare war
You declare war
He/she declares war
We declare war
They declare war
 
or any past, present or future version of these phrases.  Subject, tense (past, present, or future) and object are all indicated by gestures.   An orcish song is almost as much of a dance as it is a song.  Humans perceive orcs to be big rough brutes, because their verbal language is limited and sounds like grunts and snarls, but their ability to convey meaning and emotion through body language transcends even the expressive verbal language of the elves.  It's nearly impossible to lie convincingly to an orc, for instance, because they are so attuned to body language that they can accurately read meaning into the slightest tension or movement of the speaker.

Well, that was probably more than you wanted to know, but hope it's helpful anyway.

Alysse
 


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Rookie Brownbark on 04 February 2009, 19:33:58
K'arg'Batuk!  Woo, thankyou Tharoc  :D

Wow, orcs are cooler than I thought - I love the idea of a song where the dance is also part of the words....or even a story which has to be "danced" to - dramatised is maybe the right word.  *mind boggles*


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Lionhorse on 04 February 2009, 21:57:07
Ok, Thank you Alysse for song... and, Tharoc, thanks for reply. It seems then for me that I should write in this thread a new words for Kh'omchr'om to complete my march of the orcs and sing it in. Well... here they are:

we go - B'rok'thuruk
to crumble - grock
and - shi
destroy - urdan
enemy - gardat (pl. gard'urdath)
fear - arrgothrath
from us - kq'uback


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 05 February 2009, 04:43:24
Nice words, Lionhorse. We'll make an Orc of you yet!

Your word for enemy, gardat, shouldn't need a plural. As Alysse has mentioned, they use gestures to express things like that. Gardat could mean enemy or enemies, depending on the accompanying gesture.

Your word for fear, arrgothrath, is perhaps a little to long for the Orcs. They usually stick to shorter sounds than this. Any long words you see in their language are usually two or three words which have been 'joined together' by an apostrophe. This usually occurs where words are regularly used together. They just simplify it by making them sound like a single word. Alternatives could be Arr'go'thrath, Arr'goth'rath or even Arr'g'oth'r'ath.

Keep up the good work, my friend  ;)

@ Alysse. Seen Rookies post? It's working!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Misefr Lyther on 05 February 2009, 04:52:06
Are we sure Orcs have a language? All I get out of Tharoc is a bunch or rudimentary grunts! HA HA HA! :lol:


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 05 February 2009, 04:58:07
Wot?......oo?........eh?.........


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Lionhorse on 05 February 2009, 07:22:24
@ Lyther: Was that a discrimination of the race? :huh:

@ Tharoc: Alright, I'll just correct some of those words as you said. Alright? :grin: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 06 February 2009, 00:02:31
@ Rookie:  Yay, you've got the idea!  Orcs ARE cool!  And this "gesture" language means that they don't need a lot of vocal speech, so it's not especially developed.  Very useful for hunting or raiding, when quiet is needed.  So it's practical as well as cool.

@ Mies:  Maybe you need to watch Tharoc's movements more carefully...especially if he's charging at you, grimacing ferociously and waving a big mace of some sort.  That one shouldn't need much translation--it means "RUN AWAY!"   :lol:


Alysse


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Lionhorse on 06 February 2009, 05:43:06
Alright, I have updated my words (see below):

we go - B'rok'thuruk
to crumble - grock
and - shi
destroy - urdan
enemy, enemies - gardat
fear - arrg'oth'rath
from us - kq'uback


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 06 February 2009, 05:51:22
Those look fine to me, Lionhorse. Let's see how they look in a song, eh?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 06 February 2009, 06:07:20
Just one thing:

No pronouns.  Orcs indicate "we" and "us" with gestures, so it would just be the words "go" and "from" with the appropriate gestures to indicate "we and "us".  Aside from that, these are fine.  Oh, and one more thing:  Orcs don't actually have a written word language (they use something akin to pictograms)  What we have here as "orc language" is the Tharian idea of how these words would be spelled based on the sound of them.  Thus orcish spelling isn't exactly standardized or a precise study at this point.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 06 February 2009, 06:12:41
But it is something which I have been making notes on. And punctuation rules.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Lionhorse on 06 February 2009, 07:02:04
Ok, ok... then I'll just find some free moment to record the song and then post in Dev Board, alright?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 07 February 2009, 05:30:36
Can't wait to hear it, Lionhorse!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 March 2009, 04:39:39
I could use the orcish words for "death" and "underground", if someone can put them together, the cooler they sound, the better. Or more precise: I'd need to have "underground graveyard" translated. This is meant to be used as a secondary name for an orcish graveyard/death pit near Crazy Woman Pass, where the remnants of the invading army were disposed. If you've got suggestions, please let me know! :)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 March 2009, 05:06:45
No sooner said than done, my liege!

The word for death is Morta. I already created this for Azzy's Mists entry.

As for graveyard, give me a few minutes and I'll come up with something for you.

And I'll be giving you a list of new words later as well!

EDIT: The underground part is easy, really. Just use Gob, which means cavern. Or I could create a new word based on that, if you prefer?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 March 2009, 05:52:59
Ok, a quick look through the Kh'omchr'om dictionary gave me:

Gob - cave/cavern
Ar - of
Rhom - field
Resz - tomb

Add to that my word:

Morta - death

And we get:  Gob'rhom Ar Morta  -  underground field of death. You could also use more apostrophes and get Gob'rhom'ar'morta.

Or:  Gob'resz  -  underground tomb.

I think the first one sounds much better, though, don't you?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 11 March 2009, 06:00:15
I like Gob'rhom'ar'morta, but do orcs bury their dead in a specific graveyard?  I'd think they might build stone cairns to them, but I'm not sure about the burying.  Perhaps Rhom'morta or Rhom'ar'morta as, loosely, "place of the dead"?  Just a thought.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 March 2009, 06:01:05
And here's my list of new words to add to the dictionary.

Jup'lako  -  (lit: Deep winds) from Azzy's Mists entry

Pan  -  drum

Cha  -  enchanted, ensorceled (not to be confused with Cha meaning female. The gestures made with each word are totally different!

Mort  -  dead

Morta  -  death

Mal  -  evil

Traag  -  dark  (Azzy's Mystran entry)

Vok  -  blood  (Azzy's Mystran entry)

Shan  -  water, ocean, river, lake. (depending on the accompanying gesture)

Batuk  -  plant, weed, grass  (anything that is not a bush or tree)

Vuckk!  -  curse/swear word. Roughly translates as Damn!

That's it so far, but I'll be adding to it soon with colours and directions, and possibly some terrain types.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 March 2009, 06:07:42
Whoops! I actually thought all that before I started typing, ALysse, but got carried away and forgot to mention it!

I agree that building cairns is perhaps as far as most tribes would go, and then only to noted warriors/heroes. However, as this graveyard holds the remains of an invading army, perhaps there wasn't enough time/wood around to build enough pyres for all the dead? Or maybe they hid the bodies here to prevent looting/desecration?
We'll have to see what Arti comes up with, eh?.......*whispers* But keep a close eye on him! Sage or no sage, we can't have him meddling in our Orcy affairs.  ;)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 March 2009, 06:08:43
Thanks for the vocabulary/suggestions, Tharoc!

The orcs didn't bury their dead in this place, Alysse - at least this is the idea. The battle at Crazy Woman's path was the first attempt of the orcs to cross over to the southeast coast and they were repelled by a human contingent. These dead were thrown into a chasm/pit somewhere in the Mithral, as the humans didn't want to honour them with burning them (the typical orcish way of death, see Orcish Belief) or giving them a decent burial. That's why this place is also said to be haunted, cursed etc. But nobody knows today where it is exactly.

There might still be an orcish expression for this place, given that orcs also live in Southern Santharia. Maybe we could put together a word that also expresses that the place is cursed or at least that it's a place without honour for the orcs...


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 March 2009, 06:13:13
OK, Arti, no problem. Just let me confer with my barbarian associate and we'll be right back!

EDIT: I created the Cha'Morta-oc for Azzy's Mists. The Cursed Death Orcs. I imagine something along those lines Alysse. What about you?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 11 March 2009, 07:21:50
Well, lets see:

noble, or honourable is "Ashz:, and you negate it with an "M", thus dishonourable would be "M'ashz.

cursed is "G'hun".


and perhaps "Rhom" could also translate as "place"?  So then they'd call it the G'hun'm'ashz'rhom, perhaps?

Tharoc, "Cha" translates as "female", not "cursed" (although to the L'osh-Oc that might be equivalent)  "Cha'Morta-oc" would be the Dead Female Orcs. (Sounds like a punk rock band or something.)   They could perhaps be the "G'hun'Morta-oc".

I thought we already had a word for "blood"  from the G'un't'lor (Cursed Blood ) disease?  Somebody's got to update that vocabulary list.


Alysse




Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 March 2009, 07:25:30
I accept full responsibility for creating the Cha'Morta-oc without checking the dictionary to see if I was re-creating any words. Only tonight has it come to my notice. I'll have to see Azzy about changing the name in her entry.

I'm slowly creating/collecting new words for the dictionary, but I suppose a re-vamp/tidy-up would be in order pretty soon. Toss you for it?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 11 March 2009, 07:31:56
That may need to wait until we get a few more words together.  Art had a program we use to add new dictionary words but (blush) I don't remember how to access it.  I expect it's probably easy once you figure it out, but I am SO technically inept... 


Alysse


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 March 2009, 07:47:29
Me too! Our talents obviously lie elsewhere.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 11 March 2009, 09:02:13
The Santharian Language Editor... If you can work the Name Generator, you can work this one.  Even I figured it out :)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 11 March 2009, 09:59:39
If you say so...but I think that Tharoc and I are idea people.

Warped ideas maybe...but ideas are our strong point.

So can you show me?  And BTW, speaking of ideas, and since you are a fellow northerner, would you mind casting an eye over my Choan of Orc entry to make sure it doesn't create any problems for your Northern plans?  Or if it does, we can figure out how to integrate it.


Much thanks,


Alysse


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 12 March 2009, 04:26:01
Yep, that's us, technically inept. But if it's ideas you want, well, that's a different matter entirely!
Thar & Ally's the names, good ideas is our game......s.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 12 March 2009, 05:06:26
I will give Choan a good going over today Alysse :)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 13 March 2009, 04:47:57
In a purely platonic way, I assume  :shocked:

She's a big girl, y'know. More'n a match fer thee, I'll wager.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Morden Peshirgolz on 14 March 2009, 01:57:34
In a purely platonic way, I assume  :shocked:

She's a big girl, y'know. More'n a match fer thee, I'll wager.

I wouldn't worry too much about him, Thar. If he can survive those Remusian women, I don't see how anybody gonna get him... :P


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: wesley on 25 March 2009, 15:40:14
 :shocked:


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: wesley on 27 March 2009, 03:31:07
Big Bite : Ashzhnk  ( Ah jjz unk )
My Biteing Fangs : M'rukhnk ( Ma rukk hun ka )
Give me food : mnt-hnkong ( Moon t hunn kong )
Im eating : M' rukong ( Me roo kong )


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: wesley on 27 March 2009, 04:23:15
To have a Fight: ratkhq ( rut k uke a )
Witch/Sicic: rat-kh'al'on ( rut k - hal on)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: wesley on 27 March 2009, 04:28:07
Hunt: khqong ( ka ha wong )
I Bring Fangs: M'mnt- m-ruk ( ma umt ma ruk )
I am an orc: M' mnt oc ( ma umpt ooc )


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 27 March 2009, 08:10:02
Just for your general information, wesley, orcs do not use personal pronouns such as me, my, I, you, he or she.  These distinctions are made by gesture only.  Thus the two sentences (for example) "I hit him" and "She hit me" would be the same verbally, with gestures indicating "I", "him", "she", and "me".  The only thing you would actually hear is the verb "hit".   Almost all the subtle nuances of language are silent.  Most of the spoken words are nouns or verbs.

And in your last post, you prefaced some of your phrases with an "M".  That is the orcish negative, so it would indicate that what follows is not the case.  Your second phrase actually translates as " not bring fang"  (with the speaker indicating "I" as a gesture) and the third as  "not bring orc".

In the post previous to that you used the term "witch".  A magic worker among the orcs is known as a "shaman", male or female, so  I don't think they'd actually have the concept of "witch" per se.  Can you explain what you mean by "witch", so my preconceived notions don't get in the way?

Anyway, I hope this is helpful.  I am glad you want to be involved here, but language is a difficult place to start with.  We are still working out some of the basic rules of Kh'omchr'om, so there isn't a lot of information available just yet.  You may want to develop elsewhere until we get the rules worked out.  I hope I haven't discouraged you.  :)

Alysse the Likely


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 13 October 2009, 03:57:20
Some new orcen words from all my entries. I thought that maybe they should be included in the orcen dictionary.

"k'mul" - noun - frost, snow
"puush" - noun - medicine
"kal'ta" -  - noun - ice, snow (old orcen dialect of "Org'kom'gh")
"go'or" - noun - fang, maw (old orcen dialect of "Org'kom'gh")


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 11 April 2010, 04:26:51
Does anyone know how to say die? Or kill? Or weapon? Or human? Or how to construct the imperative?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 April 2010, 04:41:46
 Kh'omchr'om is still very much in its infancy, I'm afraid, LOTP. Although there are plans afoot to expand the vocabulary it is a slow process and it may be some time before it reaches the level of the other languages.

Ch'ron-P'thok is the 'catch-all' phrase used to describe all non-orc races.

As for the others, there are no words currently defined for what you need. A situation I find startling, seeing as they would likely be the words most commonly used by the orcs!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 11 April 2010, 05:19:06
As for the others, there are no words currently defined for what you need. A situation I find startling, seeing as they would likely be the words most commonly used by the orcs!

 :grin:

That's why I wanted them!

Thanks for your help though. If anyone finds/makes up those words, that would be a great help.

Lordofthepeople


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 11 April 2010, 17:17:19
As I know I've said elsewhere to you Lordofthepeople, there is nothing stopping you from doing work on some of these things that are of interest to you. First though, you might like to go to our I'm New/Newbies Forum and introduce yourself to us if you haven't already and receive a variety of virtual tasty nibbles to eat from all and sundry.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 11 April 2010, 17:31:22
Oops, didn't notice the noob forum. Introduction in there as of now!

To contribute to languages, can I just make things up or do I have to get them from another source?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 April 2010, 20:30:29
the study of Kh'omchr'om is a relatively new endeavour, and as such we are all still 'feeling our way' a little. There are a few ideas about how the language is constructed, but no hard and fast rules exist as yet.

I can't speak for our other orcen devotees, such as Azhira, but when I need a new word for something I just make it up. I have taken inspiration from many sources, already existing words, the Klingon language from Star Trek, and even the IKEA shopping catalogue! Mainly I find inspiration for new words from things I read or hear everytday, or just from my imagination.

When creating a new word or phrase, it is impostant that you check the already existing vocabulary to make sure you aren't repeating something. Try to familiarise yourself with the orcen tongue, say the words to yourself until you have a feel for how it sounds, how the words are constructed etc. Look for common letter combinations ('ch' 'cha' 'kr' 'ak'). This will help you decide if your new words would fit in with the language.

I suggested a while ago that due to their tusks, the language, apart from being very gutteral, would have a fair amount of hissing sounds in it. Try to incorporate this occasionally.

I really should try to find my original ideas on language construction and discuss them with Azzy.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 11 April 2010, 20:45:23
Ok, thanks. How's this?:

Make- Ssal
Death- Lak
To Kill- Sharo (lit. make death)
Wound- Arg
Weapon- Arg-Ssal (lit. wound maker)
To Die- Kal
War- Lak-Ssalo (lit. death maker)

Constructing the imperative: add the suffix 'ek' to the imperative if it ends with a consonant and 'sek' if it ends with a vowel. E.g. Die! = Kalek! Kill! = Sharosek!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 April 2010, 20:58:06
I think these sound good, LOTP. Don't be suprised if they aren't added to the dictionary just yet. There are words that have been floating around for ages that are still in the queue.

Updating the dictionary is one job I have on my list!

As for your suggestions for constuction, we need to gather all the orc experts together (in a very small room) and decide what the final rules should be.

I would try to avoid making words too long though. The orc language is evolving from the basic militery commands they used centuries ago which were invariably short, barking words. They still don't have the need for words longer than, say, two or three syllables, and maybe 6 or 7 letters.

Another point to keep in mind is that due to their recent trading with other races, they will undoubtedly be incorporating words from tharian, thergerim (rarely) and styrash (very rarely, due to the construction of the elven tongue orcs find it difficult to pronounce) into their everyday speech. I don't think they would directly borrow words, but rather use an orcen version of them.
Foe example, I'm working on an orcen weapon called the Kle'vaar. It is a chopping weapon who's name has obviously been borrowed from the tharian cleaver.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 11 April 2010, 21:23:26
Ok, good point. How about:

To kill- Sharo
War- Lak-Ssalo (lit. death maker)

And some more:

Mouth- Aaa  :grin:
Tooth- Ook
Tusk- Tuk
Eat- Nom  :grin:

Let me know if that's a bit too obvious.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 11 April 2010, 21:46:09
Keep 'em coming, LOTP. If we don't use them exactly as they are, we may be inspired by them!

And why in the name of K'ahn'uck's breeches didn't I think of using nom for eat!
Brilliant! That one's definately going in!

Oh, and another thing; many orcen words have slightly different meanings, depending on the context they were used in. Much of the orcen language is based and expressed through body/facial movements, any of which can change the context of a word or phrase. It's a very complex language in that respect,and very difficult/impossible for non-orcs to become fluent in.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 11 April 2010, 23:01:31
A good start, LOTP. As Tharoc mentioned, when us developers need a word, we simply make one up. I am not a language expert, so I am fairly sloppy when if comes to language. Most of my orcen and Kaaer words are inconsistent, but I try to make them fit as best I can.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 11 April 2010, 23:41:49
@Tharoc- Thanks! It came to me in a flash of inspiration  :evil:!
That makes sense, but how would one show that? I mean, could you just write Tooth = Ook and frown, or is there another system?

@Azhira Ok, that makes sense. But if we based Kh'omchr'om (loosely) on a RL language, we could get a bit of inspiration. Maybe just in a few areas. But then again, there aren't many languages that are anything like Kh'omchr'om. In the mean time though, I think just making it up should suffice.

Thanks for the help!



Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 15 April 2010, 03:27:14
N-And
Arl-Greeting
Bla- to talk


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 16 April 2010, 08:04:28
Sakad- goodbye
Sif- to smell
Sif with frown- to smell bad or stink
Ak!- general exclamation


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 18 April 2010, 06:08:01
I'm giving M'ruk a shiny new AURA +1 for his welcome additions to the orcen dictionary.

And in the expectation that he will continue with this worthwhile endeavour. *Peers ominously over the top of his closer-upper lenses at the Newbie*

I sense you may be one of those bright sparks who have a wonderful command of the intricacies of language, Mruk. With this in mind, (and remembering that I'm completely clueless in that direction), I suggest that we try to define a few simple rules for Kh'omchr'om at some point.

For example, we need to decide why some words have apostrophes in them in places where apostrophes have no business being. Stuff like that.

Are you in?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 18 April 2010, 06:41:08
Not strictly speaking vocabulary, but perhaps the apostrophes could be represent glottal stops (at the most basic level) or for a higher level of complexity, changes of expression? For example, to take the name of the new contributor, my glamorous assistant - M'ruk, may I borrow your name for a second? Don't worry, I won't damage it...much.

Anyway, m'ruk could be rendered as m[snarl showing fangruk. Perhaps, if I may be so bold, symbols like ~/#/^/>/</`// could be taken and given differenmt meanings.

Let's say:

`  =  Tooth-displaying snarl (E.g. M`ruk)
#  =  Cross-body gesture with hand, makes a word plural
^  =  Frown (so, as M`ruk proposed, sif is the basic smell word, but s^if means stink)
>  =  Jutting chin (maybe for more challenging, belligerent words?)
<  =  Smile (or whatever orcs do... - eg, s^if means stench, but s<if means nice smell.)
  =  Tensing up of body (I know I overuse it, but sif means smell of danger)
   =  Gesture with hand, turns word into a verb.
And then ' as a multi-purpose glottal stop.

For sentence structure, I have a tentative idea of orcs speaking verb-subject-object as basic word order, with adjectives and adverbs coming second? Eg, Sif Tharoc Altario means "Tharoc smells Altario".

I've got a couple more ideas, but I want to see if these are ridiculed first. That's my answer to Tharoc's specific point, at least.

Hope they'll work/provide inspiration.

Athviaro


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 18 April 2010, 07:03:30
See, this is just the kind of thing I was looking for. Many thanks, Athviaro.

Your thoughts on why apostrophes keep popping up are interesting, and not entirely dissimilar to my own. I'm not sure we should be delving into creating the visual language until we've decided more about the oral side of things. Your suggestion of using more symbols is a good one, however, and I shall file it safely!

As for sentence construction, this is an area where I think the various tribes would have their own ideas. Personally, I rarely use Kh'omchr'om when speaking as Tharoc, preferring instead to use his version of Tharian (which is actually the dialect I speak with in RL, albeit tidied up somewhat for ease of reading, believe it or not).



Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 18 April 2010, 07:32:42
See, this is just the kind of thing I was looking for. Many thanks, Athviaro.

Why thank you. Have a cookie, I know you love them.

Your thoughts on why apostrophes keep popping up are interesting, and not entirely dissimilar to my own. I'm not sure we should be delving into creating the visual language until we've decided more about the oral side of things. Your suggestion of using more symbols is a good one, however, and I shall file it safely!

Point taken. I merely did so in response to your saying that Orcen is very visual and Artimidor's statement
Quote
the orcs have a common tongue to communicate with each other
which led me to believe that, in the nature of "pidgen" tongues, this common language would be fairly basic in its vocabulary range and it's ambition of syntactical and grammatical scope. (I actually pulled that sentence off!) Therefore, I thought a more accurate way of representing expression in print was needed. My picture was that orcen made no distinction between many things in the actual words, but used gestures to express number and word type. (I note that you have the same word for "Wargs" as for "Warg" - thus, would not a gesture be needed? Also "Cha" means "enchanted, cursed" or "woman" - again, a distinction of some sort is needed - you even claim they have "different" gestures, but what are they?)

As for sentence construction, this is an area where I think the various tribes would have their own ideas. Personally, I rarely use Kh'omchr'om when speaking as Tharoc, preferring instead to use his version of Tharian (which is actually the dialect I speak with in RL, albeit tidied up somewhat for ease of reading, believe it or not).

Quote
the orcs have a common tongue to communicate with each other

Thus would they not have a common sentence structure? Or maybe (this only just occured) the more "advanced" tribes can be distinguished by a more sophisticated sentence strucure, and the cruder by their basic construction? It's your language(ish - well, it's not mine!)

Happy language building.

Athviaro


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 18 April 2010, 08:00:38
@ Tharoc Thanks very much! I will polish it as much as I can. As for continuing, I doubt anyone could stop me if they tried (that is, unless they had cookies). I look forward to working with you often. We Orcs should stick together, you know!

@ Athviaro That is an excellent idea, in my opinion, and I think with a few modifications it could be a good base for this language. My only concern is that there aren't enough symbols to cover every action, and it would be a pain to try to do that. I suggest that the symbols correspond to only the most common actions and the rest are written in.  


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 18 April 2010, 17:03:16
That was my idea too, but I decided to err on the side of "too many". If asked, I would say to keep the "plural" gesture, the "verb" gesture, maybe the snarl (`) and then a frown and smile for positive and negative words. Then all others can be represented with ' and be written in next to the word, perhaps in [] or {}. But some basic ones would be useful, it seems to me.  ' can just be to show where these expressions are/change.

Then for the grammar side of it, perhaps

'A - 1st person (I or we)
E'e - 2nd person (you)
O'u - 3rd person (He/She/It/They)

So... (If we keep plural notation the same)

'A
E'e
O'u
#A
E'#e
O'#u


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 18 April 2010, 17:22:46
Just had, based on last post, an idea for verb "To Be".

I am  -  A
You are  -  Ee
He/She/It is  -  Ou
We are  -  #A
You are  -  E#e
They are  -  O#u

It's a bit ugly...I'm not really happy with # as the plural sign, I really want something neater. I think I might change to the for a plural.

I am  -  A
You are  -  Ee
He/She/It is  -  Ou
We are  -  A
You are  -  Ee
They are  -  Ou

That's a little better. I'll think on it.

Athviaro


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 18 April 2010, 17:51:56
I'm not sure that we need so many words to have actions to go with them. I mean, the actions should, in my opinion, differentiate between words of the same spelling and be attached to a few others. I mean, having to do an action every time you say someone's name would be extremely tiresome, not to mention a waste of time if they aren't looking at you. And some actions effect pronounciation, e.g. the ' or bearing of teeth symbol, so that applies further restrictions.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 18 April 2010, 21:29:55
Quote
Much of the orcen language is based and expressed through body/facial movements, any of which can change the context of a word or phrase. It's a very complex language in that respect,

This is what I was trying to convey - the wise words of Mr Rider.

I agree too much extra stuff is not to be desired, but some extra detail is needed, I would say.

Athviaro


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 19 April 2010, 05:22:14
Iv- Live
Darg- Place
Darg'iv- House/residence (lit. Place of living)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 20 April 2010, 03:31:08
Khq'Ssalo- Challenge or challenger (Lit. fight maker)
Xak- Difficult/hard
Min- Easy

I have noticed that earlier in this thread someone already put a word for eat (Ong) and Arti has recently put it in the dictionary so might I suggest that one of the words for eat (mine being Nom) be made into chew?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 20 April 2010, 04:13:36
I was thinking that Nom could mean eat, chew or bite, so I guess we're pretty much agreed on that then!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 21 April 2010, 03:31:57
Just laying some groundwork for the Gates of Hell'wrung entry (as and when it appears  :P)

Na'a - Black (This is for the black granite-type stone the Gates are hewn from. It would be either na'a ph'ragh - black stone or ph'ragh na'a. By adding the negative form of 'm' before it we could get m'na'a ph'ragh - not black stone, or white stone  :grin:

It is suggested that the word na'a is one of those Kh'omchr'om words that has been derived from Tharian. By taking the first three letters from norsidian, it is easy to see that this could, in fact, be true. 


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 21 April 2010, 03:41:39
M'ruk, I've just been reading through a few of your suggestions for new words.

You suggest the word 'fro' to mean fight. We already have 'khq' in the dictionary for that, I'm afraid.  :(

Never fear, I'm sure we can use it for something else!

Whilst I'm here, I just want to point out that the word 'cha' that I used to mean 'cursed' for the Cha'morta-oc is, as M'rok has quite rightly pointed out, already in use in the dictionary to mean female. I shall very neatly sidestep this issue by suggesting that in the past (and in some cases, even today) the orcs regarded all females as inferior. So much so, in fact, that it was considered a curse from  K'han'uck himself to be born female. This is why the word 'cha' has a dual meaning.  ;)

Another point I think needs some attention when I look through our Kh'omchr'om dictionary is this: when we see a 'word' that is made up of more than one part (for example Kh'omchr'om), we need to decide just what those individual sections of the word actually mean.
Again taking Kh'omchr'om as our example, I can't see the ancient orcs creating such a lengthy word unless it has evolved from three seperate words that were commonly used together. Over time they will have dropped some letters and the three individual words would have 'slid' together to form one new word with the same meaning as the original three. Does that make sense?
There are numerous examples of this in the dictionary and it really bothers me every time I look at it.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 21 April 2010, 03:47:38
I think that Kh'omchr'om is going to wind up being a little orwellian. One word that can be modified to many different meanings, rather than adding things like comparatives and superlatives. Who needs more words when you can just say "not black" after all? :grin:


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 21 April 2010, 04:03:21
Hi Val. I think you're quite right, actually.

I want to try to keep the language as simple as possible. After all, the language is still developing and evolving from the basic, rough military commands that it started out as (in ancient times they had no need for anything other than this).
I've recently decided that they would use a method of language creation very similar to a young child. The black/white point you mention is a case in point. Ask a child who only knows the word for black what colour snow is and chances are they would say 'not black'  :P

I've recently started to introduce a few words of Kh'omchr'om that look as though they have been derived from Tharian. I think this is a legitimate way for any race to expand their vocabulary, and we see it everyday in RL. English, for example, is a mish-mash of God only knows how many languages.

While I've got the bit between my teeth, there's something else I want to mention regarding the orcen language.
The recent discussions about symbols to represent actions has got me thinking. Whilst I think that the idea is basically a good one, and one which I think merits further research, I can see two inter-related points that we need to consider before delving further.

1. The sheer amount of symbols we would need. At a guess, I would estimate that somewhere between 50 and 75% of all orcen communication is made up of some form of gesture/body language. Many single words have several simultaneous gestures to go with them. That's one mighty big heap o'symbols right there!

2. The complexity of even simple gestures would complicate matters even further. Take the commonly accepted RL gesture for 'I don't know' as an example. When we break this gesture down into its component parts it reads thusly: Both shoulders drawn upwards and inwards towards the neck, both arms raised and bent at the elbows and turned slightly outwards, hands open and palms up, the corners of the mouth turned downwards.
All that just to say 'shrug'. Each of those movements would need its own symbol, It's easy to see just how complex this method would make the language if we used it in its suggested form.
I think we can still utilise the idea, but in a much abridged format. What that format is remains to be seen.
All suggestions on a postcard, to arrive at this office no later than the eleventeenth of Septober.

Right, here endeth the third lesson. Those are my current musings on Kh'omchr'om. I just wanted to get them down on screen before I forgot them.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 21 April 2010, 04:37:28
Ok, edited to Khq'Ssalo.

May I suggest that whilst the real name for the Orcen/Orcish language is Kh'omchr'om, most Orcs shorten it to something like Kh'om or Omchr'om?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 21 April 2010, 04:40:53
The word you're looking for is pidgin, I think.

So the word for "chief" might have an origin in Styrash, from the Dark Elven generals that would have commanded orcs?

You could wind up with a healthy smattering of kuglimz'seitre derrived words as well I think.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 21 April 2010, 04:57:30
I envision the orcs 'borrowing' words from every race/language they come into regular contact with, Val. The only reason I've started with Tharian is because I have absolutely zero knowledge of the other languages  :grin:

As the language progresses, I'll make a point of reading through the other dictionarys and skimming a few useful syllables off the top  ;)

@ M'ruk. Ohh, you're quick with your edits! I like your idea of the orcs (and possibly the other races) shortening Kh'omchr'om to Kh'om.

Course, we need to sneak all these things past Azzy and Alysse, but they're easily distracted. Just leave a basket of puppy's over there and we'll breeze it.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 21 April 2010, 05:15:56
lol, and some cookies.

By the way, what does Kh'omchr'om actually mean?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 21 April 2010, 05:20:50
See my earlier point about deciding what words were originally used to create new words.

In other words, you tell me!

As the first two letters are Kh', it obviously has something to do with K'han'uck.
I see the orcen religion (K'han'uck'tscha) as meaning 'the word of K'han'uck', 'the orders of K'han'uck', or 'the command of K'han'uck'. So, if we decide from that list that K'han'uck'tscha means 'The Commands of K'han'uck', we're free to translate Kh'omchr'om as 'The words/talk/language of K'han'uck'. 'omchr' would mean 'words/talk/language' and 'om' would be 'of' or 'belonging'.
Obviously, we then need to reverse engineer the words to find what the original words they derived from actually were.

Don't let me stop you  ;)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 21 April 2010, 05:36:13
A thought.

Kh' Battle/War/Fighting
Omchr: word/talk/language
'Om: of/belonging.

So Kh'omchr'om comes to mean "Language of Battle". Or the instructions leaders give in battle. Since khq already means "Fight" this makes sense I think.

Incidentally, Dwarven has quite a few nasty little words listed under K, that I imagine the orcs would be all too happy to borrow from.
Like this:
khorimyeh (verb) Tharian: Die.

So we could change that to Kh'om'yeh. End of Battle/Death.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 21 April 2010, 05:45:36
Hhmmm. I like the cut of your jib, Valan!

Excellent suggestions. I shall act on them tomorrow when I have more time.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 21 April 2010, 05:48:16
How about Language of K'han'uck's Race?

Kh'- Of K'han'uck
Omchr-Language
'Om- Race/People

I don't think there needs to be an 'of'.

Or how about Language of Battle control?

Kh'- Battle
Omchr-Language
'Om- Use/control

Just a few ideas blending yours. I like both   :grin:


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 21 April 2010, 11:17:40
@M'ruk
I think that first conflicts with the word Oc meaning Orc. Which would also conflict with the idea of orcish view of Oc (Orcs) and Ch'ron-P'thok (Vermin, everyone and everything not orc). I doubt need a word for "race/people". Why distinguish between different sorts of vermin after all?

They already have an "of". The word "Ar" which is used to connect words.

English doesn't quite work to explain, but the word "Om" would have a possessive meaning, ideally. A way of saying "mine/ours/theirs/its/his" since orcish doesn't have things like I/we/he as words (replaced with things that don't translate well to text like gestures and facial expressions). You attach 'om to the end of something with the appropriate gesture and you tell everyone who the noun in question belongs to, who possesses it.

"Plains of Orcs" Rhom'ar'y'oc would decode to something like "Plains on which there are weak orcs"
While Rhom'y'oc'om would be to "Plains which belong to/are the possession of weak orcs". Different word, different placement, different meaning. Simple. Kh'omchr'om seems to be a language without shades of grey.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 21 April 2010, 11:23:17
For Tharoc :grin:

Valan's list of suggestions for breaking up words.

Noruck-chmer; Skirmisher
Noruck: No Shield (Taken from Goruck; Shieldbearer)
chmer: weak arm (From Cha; Female, From the following definitions of skirmish:
A brief battle  between small groups, usually part of a longer or larger battle or war.
In warfare, a tactic of attacking with missile weapons without making contact.)
A fighter that is not does not wear armor and is not strong. Cannon fodder.

Goruck gives us then:

With Shield/Armor?
Or the word Ruck; armor/protection/shield

Ngangaz: This one doesn't bother me actually. It sounds onomatopoeic, the sound of a bow string being released and an arrow leaving it. Also Nganga perhaps. One of the two is spelled the wrong way, or a plural.

Harach-me; Ogre Berserk
Harach; Ogre, Head-weak, dumb.
me: I can't think of anything for this. Perhaps the word "tool" as a suffix. Which would make weapons cut-tool?

Kh'al'on; Distance/future
Kh'; meaning fight (an assumption)
Al; dialectic corruption of Ar. A difference in tongues between tribes perhaps?
On; dialectic corruption of ogm: Moving/Move to Move
Spirit: Moving to fight.

Uon'kh'al'on; Shaman
Important word this one.
Breaking it down?
Uon'; Seeing/to see (from the dictionary
kh' fight
al'; corruption of Ar (as above)
on; corruption of ogm (as above)
Kh'al'on means distance, the future.
Spirit: One who sees the future, a far seer.

Zrovkya; Hairy/Beard
I really can't get this one.
And the site won't find it. Blame the Kuglimz, this sounds like kuglimz'seitre
The Bearded Horse (http://www.santharia.com/library/orcish_songs/orcish_songs.htm) Especially since it's one of Alysse's pieces. The word sounds reminiscent of one of the European languages, polish perhaps?


Words from other entries (not included in the dictionary)

Emesz; FIRE! (I was wondering why this didn't show up, and it's from one of Tharoc's entries!)
Quote
This is quite possibly one of the rarest trees in the whole of Caelereth, being found in only one location, on the lower slopes of Mount Emesz'gob (lit. "Fire Cave"), an extinct volcano in the Prominent range of Northern Sarvonia. (http://santharia.com/herbarium/ironwood_tree.htm#Territory)

yrr'la'h'rok; drink The Bearded Horse (http://www.santharia.com/library/orcish_songs/orcish_songs.htm)

I came across "Rochuck" here (http://www.santharia.com/martial_arts/orcish_warfare.htm#Classes) which is not included in the dictionary. Supposed to mean "Wargrider" but it doesn't really fit. Morguck sounds a little closer, Morgur being the word for warg, uck meaning warrior. Or perhaps Morzuck? Literally, Warg Warrior in either case.

Khrumm; orcish warsword link (http://santharia.com/weapons/khrumm.htm)
Quote
the name "Kruhm" comes from a shortening of the animal's full name, and was first used by the Kaeer'dr'shn  half-orcs. (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/krumhorn_beast.htm)

Krrahghi; vine producing spicy sap used for flavouring. link (http://www.santharia.com/herbarium/kragghi_vine.htm) This will want breaking up.

Batuk; vegetation/plants
Quote
"K'arg'Batuk" (lit. "attacking vegetation") (http://www.santharia.com/herbarium/savage_mushroom.htm)

tlor; Blood. link (http://www.santharia.com/diseases/ghuntlor_disease.htm)
Quote
It is also known as "Shelfung" (Tharian) "kroch'tlor" (orcish) and "urtumua" (ThergerimTaal). (http://www.santharia.com/herbarium/squilla_fungus.htm)
The word kroch means good. So the translation here would be "good blood"?

Haz'ha'akh,
Quote
The exact process for making one of these fine blades is impossible to tell, as the Ashz-oc believe they were given this knowledge by the Giant Haz'ha'akh, and refuse to reveal the secret (http://santharia.com/herbarium/ironwood_tree.htm#Usages)
Haz means Guard.
Ha' and Akh have no meaning at this point.
Akh might mean giant?
It could also be a corruption of arq; hit/hitting/to hit

Ha'acho'Ha'k
Quote
the knowledge of how to turn the wood into blades of the highest quality, by the Giant Haz'ha'akh in return for helping him to defeat his brother Ha'acho'Ha'k ("The Sword Maker") and for guarding the mountain hiding his brother's forge. (http://santharia.com/herbarium/ironwood_tree.htm#Myth/Lore)
Perhaps Ha'k means sword? I'd rather like that.
Acho would then mean what? Crafter? One who makes?
Still no meaning for Ha'
C'hruk; Dark link (http://www.santharia.com/places/shadespell_gorge.htm)

Quote
The Osther-Oc battle song, "Choan'ash'uon'kh'al'on'uck" (lit. "Choan the Worthy"), has a few lines in it that tell of an army of Wisps that were summoned from within the Deep Winds Portal to function as guides for the orcen armies as they invaded southern Sarvonia. The song has been translated as either being Wisps, demons or phantasms. Apparently, the Kh'om'chr'om word for "ghost" can also mean many other things, including Will'o'Wisp.
link (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/wisp.htm#Habitat/Behavior)
This is a bit of the opposite. Though Choan'ash'uron'kh'al'on'uck translates to "Choan, Worthy Shaman Warrior" or something along those lines(and I imagine it's a mouthful in orcen as well)
The word for ghost should literally mean something not of this world. Morta is dead, but I'll avoid using that. Especially since it does more than say
I'd like to see M'losh (untrue) incorporated somehow, orcs seem a very tactile sort. If it's a ghost they can't touch it. M'losh'uon perhaps? Untrue Sight. Literally something which can't possibly be there. Otherworldly.
So, add this one.

M'losh'uon; Otherwordly, Ghost, spectre, spirit, demon?

There's no word for metal, which troubles me.
Kh'langk (guess at the pronunciation) Iron/Steel; War Metal.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 02 May 2010, 02:25:12
Waid- Path/Process
Ouk- Burn
Noss- Refuse, deny
In- To enter, as in a contest or conversation
Alak- To rush
Hef- Large, rich, big, imposing, hulking, huge
Asc- Up, to ascend, to climb
Hee- To give, to present, gift, present, to place, to put
Hori- to Long
Nom'Ssalo- Jaw, mouth


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 02 May 2010, 04:48:50
Sorry, M'ruk, I've already claimed a word for portal (albeit unofficially). I have an entry on the cards called The Gates of Hell'wrung. Wrung = gate, gateway, door, portal etc. Hell = south, southern.

Sorry  :)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 02 May 2010, 05:21:45
No problemo, I can just change it to In-to enter

Is that OK?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 02 May 2010, 05:41:07
Hmmm. Considering our conversations about the derivations of words recently, I think 'to enter' should be something like 'ung' or similar.

What do you think?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 02 May 2010, 05:48:28
Hmm... perhaps 'In' can mean to enter as in a contest, tournament, or conversation, whereas something like 'ung' is used to mean to enter as in a building?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 02 May 2010, 05:57:32
Good thought.

We can sort details like this out soon, when I make an effort to update the dictionary with all these new words!

You, Valan and I should also arrange a little discussion to try to finalise at least a few basic grammatical rules for Kh'omchr'om. I know a few ideas were thrown into the ring, but we need to decide which are the good, the bad, and the downright ugly.

Obviously, I'll try to grab hold of Irid or one of our other polyglot's for their opinions as well.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 02 May 2010, 06:00:56
Tharoc: Any thoughts on the earlier post there, or is that going to be subject to the discussion?


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 02 May 2010, 06:42:23
That will be discussed later, Val. And in all honesty, you have presented so much detailed information over your last few posts I'll need to read through them a couple more times to make sure I've fully understood everything you say!  :shocked:



Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 02 May 2010, 13:07:41
Has anyone gone through my entries for new orcen words? I have several... :cool:

From the Caaehl Mountain entry:

"ish'ko "jahgg'rumm" (orcen lit. "mind sickness fog")

"ish'ko (mind or spirit).
"jahgg (sick or ailment)
"rumm" (fog, mist, vapor etc.)

"Chuut'kur Volk'has"

"chuut" (kin, blood relative)
"kur" (old or ancient)
"volk" (house, space, dwelling)
"has" (large or spacial or palace)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 02 May 2010, 16:40:26
@Azhira any chance you could change has to wide/spacious/palace because I've already put a word for large/big/imposing/hulking/huge (Hef)? Thanks.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 02 May 2010, 21:20:57
They're two different concepts. One refers to the space of a place, the lack of things in the way, while the other refers to the space taken up by an object. Different ideas, different words.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 02 May 2010, 23:03:48
As far as I'm aware large doesn't refer to lack of obstacles.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 02 May 2010, 23:53:04
What Valan said. My meaning should be taken as a large area. The Ancestor's Dwelling ruin takes up a large area under the mountain (think Khazad Dum in LOTR). Your meaning is large as in objects being BIG.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 03 May 2010, 01:00:23
I have seen (and taken note of) your earlier vocab, Azzy. I've also collected a few words from here and there in the Compendium. I've got plans to collate everything together and present an updated dictionary in the near future.
It's not easy, though, when M'ruk keeps throwing new words at me at such a rate!

As for the grammatical rules, I think we should keep that as a seperate issue. It will probably warrant an entry of it's own, and that will doubtless need updating as and when we decide on new rules.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 03 May 2010, 20:08:53
I can pause for a bit if you want. But before that happens, one last game of catch!

Waid'Ssalo- To trample, to stomp, progress (lit. To make a path)
Dak- Violence, sudden
Dav- To allow, to permit
Bowk- Follow, serve
Rohn- Flat, boring (Corruption of Rhom- plain)
Pak- To stay, to wait, to stop, to remain, to last, to endure, to halt
Ligt- Shadow
Ligt'Ssalo- Light, source of light (lit. Shadow maker)
Op- hole, gap, passage


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 May 2010, 01:33:34
If the vocabulary could collated into a proper final post/thread that would be quite helpful, then I can add it into the database, then export it to HTML and we can put up index pages like we have it with Styrsh already. (The design of these pages is not overly nice right now, but that can be altered more or less easily at some point once we alter the templates we're using. E.g. changing these tables as well more towards the history tables design would be good.)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 04 May 2010, 02:46:03
Putting this dictionary of new words together sounds like a job for an apprentice to earn his keep around here!  :D

(Tharoc not included...I am looking at you, M'ruk! Mr. Wargrider is needed elsewhere.  ;)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 04 May 2010, 03:02:20
I have to say I love your word for light, M'ruk - Shadow Maker! Absolutely delicious (ugh - wrong adjective there, d'you think?) lateral thinking! You could do some really deep philosophising about the Orcen mindset and worldview from that one word...But not here, although it has been said that the mutual effect of language and culture cannot be underestimated.

Athviaro

Word Enthusiast of the North


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 04 May 2010, 03:05:13
Sure, I'd love to make the dictionary. How should I present it?

Oh, and thanks Athviaro. Hopefully I can keep with that mindset while developing for a long time.

EDIT: Just saw Art's post. I'll definitely start tomorrow, so watch this space!


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 04 May 2010, 03:33:10
Sure, I'd love to make the dictionary. How should I present it?

Make a new thread with all of the words not included in the main dictionary. Then, we can discuss them all together. Arti can then probably copy them into the main thread since he can edit it.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 15 May 2010, 02:20:58
A couple of things. First, Tharoc, what does Ch'ron-P'thok mean? I was thinking more in like with the Orcen mindset would be m'oc - not orc.

Actually, that's all. Never mind.

Athviaro

EDIT: I guess it has something to do with Cha - cursed, but nothing else there is in the dictionary.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 15 May 2010, 15:54:42
Ooops, sorry, one more thing. I had a thought as I lay in bed last night (don't blame me, you think I want thought when I'm trying to sleep?) and it was this:

Break down M'ruk, it becomes m and ruk. Now m is a negative prefix, so m'ruk means not ruk. Now ruk is not in the dictionary, or anywhere, so what I propose is this:

Look at an orcs mouth, and what do you see? His lips and his fangs. Therefore what I say is m'ruk means not-lip, or fang, in which case ruk=lip.

Just my two san of orcy goodness.

Athviaro the Language Dissector


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 16 May 2010, 00:26:28
Xas- Hot (temperature)
Wrosz- Cold (temperature)
Saak- Fast, quick
M'Saak- Slow (speed)(lit. not fast)
Shi'bor- Scholar (can be an abusive term, like 'nerd')
Xas'Dak- Spur of the moment violence, Rage (lit. Hot violence)
Wrosz'Dak- Assassination, premeditated murder, to assassinate (lit. Cold violence)
Saak'Dak- To burst, to brawl, brawl (lit. Fast violence)
Dak'Dak- Ambush, To ambush (lit. Sudden/violent violence)
M'Saak'Dak- Posion, to posion, torture, to torture (lit. not fast violence)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mina on 02 July 2010, 04:49:29
Some thoughts about gestures:

I think it would be a good idea if gestures and sounds played different roles.  So lexical words would be spoken, but their functions are indicated using gestures.  Here's an example:

gestured: (me)  (plural)(my)  (you)(it)
spoken:    bla'u   tak             nom
                talk    pig              eat
"I was told that you ate my pigs"

I'm also thinking that using punctuations to write the gestures like Athviaro suggested might be a good idea.  Here are what I came up with:

Positioning:
     ^
     _
     <
     >
     :
     =
indicates a hand held relatively high, about head level
indicates a hand held relatively low, about chest level
indicates a hand held close to oneself, ie. with retracted arm
indicates a hand held some distance ahead of oneself, ie. with extended arm
indicates a hand held towards the center
indicates a hand held a bit to the side, about where the shoulders are

These together give each hand 8 possible locations it could be in.  The side of the body opposite the signing hand is not a valid location for now; hopefully it won't be needed.

Shapes:
     @
     (
     !
indicates that the hand is closed, in a fist
indicates that the hand is partially open, in the shape of a "c"
indicates the hand is fully open

Others:
     /
     [ and ]
indicates movement from one position to another
used to separate things where necessary to avoid confusion

These can all be done using just one hand.  I kind of imagined an orc holding something (maybe a weapon?) in one hand and gesturing with the other.  It's also very simple (the Wikipedia entry on American Sign Language lists lots of shapes, positions, and movements), but I figure we are aiming for simple anyway. 

And here are some "words":
     I, me
     We
     You (singular)
     You (plural)
     He/she/it
     They
     _<:@
_<:!
_>:@
_>:!
any side position (=) with @
any side position (=) with !

I only have pronouns for now.  The last two were inspired by the following:
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language_grammar#Referent_locus_system
A referent locus may be set up by signing a noun and then pointing to a certain spot in sign space. The signer can later refer back to that noun by pointing to its associated location (that is, by using an indexic pronoun), or by incorporating the location into the motion of an indexic verb. For instance, if the signer points to a spot over their right shoulder when referring to their grandmother in another city, they can then mention her again by pointing over their shoulder instead of repeating 'my out-of-town grandmother'. Perhaps as many as eight loci may be productively used to distinguish pronouns in a conversation, before the speakers become overloaded, whereas English is restricted to three third-person pronouns: he, she, and they.
Since there are 4 side positions, that gives us 4 singular and 4 plural 3rd persons we can use.  I don't know if that's too much.  We could always cut it down to something more reasonable and open up some spaces for other words. 

When saying a word, the appropriate pronoun is also signed.  This can perhaps be used for statements equating one thing with another:
zuck[_<:!]
warrior-we
"We are warriors"

ha'akh[_>:@]
tall-you(singular)
"You are tall"

itus[_>=@]
tree-it
"It is a tree"

Like the quoted passage about American Sign Language, perhaps the last form (3rd person) can also be used to set up something to be referred to later, such as in the next example. 

To indicate who does what to whom, start with the sign indicating the one performing the action, then move to the sign indicating the one the action is being performed on, while speaking the verb. 

Morgur[_>=@] uon[_<:@]/[_>=@]
warg-it             I-see-it
"I see/saw a warg"

Slightly modifying the rules, perhaps we can use k'- and -'u only for clarification when certain arguments are missing:

uon'u[_<:@]
see-I
"(unspecified) saw me," or in other words, "I was seen"

k'uon[_<:@]
see-I
"I see (unspecified)"

We can perhaps also indicate Possession.  How about using one of the 3rd person signs while speaking the word for the possessed item, then moving to the sign for the possessor, then back?

zuck[_>=@]   h'rok[^>=!]/[_>=@]/[^>=!]  sharo[^<=@]/[^>=!]
warrior-he1     horse-they-he1-they               kill-he2-they
"He killed a/the warrior's horses"

Back to the example near the start of this post:

bla'u[_>:@] tak[_>=!]/[_<:@]/[_>=!] nom[_>:@]/[_>=!]
talk-I           pig-they-me-they              eat-you(singular)-they
"I was told that you ate my pigs"

Well, after writing all that out, the punctuations look really ugly.  But does the system itself, aside from the way it is written, seem feasible? 


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 02 July 2010, 05:18:15
It was suggested earlier on, Mina, as Ath indicated and the problems that you run into are A, remembering what each individual symbol means in addition to all the words. B, the number of symbols required to replace the actual gestures is a little staggering and lastly, as you noted, it looks rather ugly.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mina on 02 July 2010, 05:39:47
Yeah, it'd be nice to have a better way to write gestures.   :(
I didn't think 10 symbols was a lot though.  Think of it as a second (and very ugly) alphabet used for spelling out gestures. 

But mainly I'm wondering:

1. Are the gestures themselves alright?
2. Do the ways of using them make sense? 


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 02 July 2010, 05:47:52
1. Yes but we DEFINITELY need A LOT more
2. Yep, but perhaps we could have another few to show where it comes relative to the words e.g. before, during, or after the word or sentence.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mina on 02 July 2010, 13:52:57
1. Well, 8 positions and 3 shapes give a total of 24 possible static ones if I have calculated it correctly, of which only 6 have been used so far.  Including movement, there are quite a lot of possible gestures.  I don't mind suggestions.   :)

2. I intended the gestures to be made while speaking they are written as being attached to.  I think they should be simple enough that they can be completed even in the time taken to say just a single-syllable word. 

If the gestures are alright, how about, as a temporary measure, we write the equivalent English word?  For example "h'rok[my]" instead of "h'rok[_>=@]/[_<:@]/[_>=@]" for "my horse"?  Still the same gestures, just translated into English before writing since we don't have a good way of directly writing gestures. 


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 02 July 2010, 16:24:39
That's not a bad idea...My idea involved replacing the accents with them, as a kind of two-birds-with-one-stone measure, but that only works when you stick to ' and ` and a couple more like that. But a kind of gestures-dictionary with all of the common gestures in shouldn't be hard and could be an idea...

On the number of gestures - we aren't trying to make a sign language here, so we don't need too many.

But did you get |? Or ? Maybe * as well? But I think Mina is right, 24 is quite a lot of positions, and they really come into their own for similar sounding words. There isn't really a Terran languages which has this mix of gestures and vocals (not a common onne, at least) so we don't have much from experience. However, we do always run into the problem of its looking hideuosly ugly!

I had an idea, on the Chatting in Santh. Languages, about using accents which gives us 4 basic gestures common to all vowels, plus a couple more for individual letters. As Mina said over there, there may not be enough vowels, but it's an idea. Or a single accent on each word could give a general stance or position? So for example:

Xs could be Hot(nicely so ie warm)
Xs could be Hot(as in boiling/furnace ie uncomfortable)

Or since pronouns are likely to need gestures:

Xs is "I-Hot"  - ie, I am hot
Xs is "You-hot" - ie, You are hot
Xs is "He-hot" - ie, He is hot
Xs is "She-hot" - ie, She is hot

These are just ideas and do not preclude Mina's system, into which she has put a lot of work, but is just for basic common gestures rather than more subtle ones.

Then when we add in the tilda and some others, especially from the Scandinavian, we get quite a range of preicse accents as well.

This (https://homepages.westminster.org.uk/it_new/faq/accent_shortcuts.html) page contains all of the keyboard shortcuts for word, and lists pretty much every accent and special character.

The Umlaut and the acute go on a "y" as well and "a" and "o" can have a tilda. Plus the cedille and the "o with a line through it"  and a couple more and we can pick and choose the most feasible of the lot to use - certainly not all of them! That would be a new alphabet, almost.

ANyway, I hope that my idea adds a little something to the language discussions, even if it never reaches site.

Athviaro the Developer of Languages (Somehow!?!?)


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mina on 06 July 2010, 05:20:40
I was going to wait until I've come up with something better before replying, but that's taking too long.  So I'll just mention some of the things I've been thinking of. 

There are actually quite a lot more diacritics we can use, if we go with that.  Wikipedia has quite a big list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic).  We could either have each diacritic representing a "word" like your examples with the pronouns, or use them as a less ugly version of the punctuation-spelling I came up with.  But the former requires lots of diacritics, and the latter requires a lot of vowels to put the diacritics on. 

Another idea might be to do something similar to what I did, but using letters instead of punctuation.  So, for example, instead of the symbols "^, _, <, >, :, =", we could instead have "a, b, c, d, e, f".  That,s probably less ugly, but most people probably associate letters with sounds rather than gestures.  Also, we need a way to distinguish them from the spoken words, since those are being written with the same letters.  Maybe they could be italicized or something, but I'm not sure how well that would work yet. 


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 06 July 2010, 06:48:20
How about Greek/Arabic/Hebrew characters instead?

And I wasn't proposing that we should only use accents, but for some common ideas they may be useful, I think.

Not got long - it's 10:45 and I need sleep, so that's all. Sorry for the pathetically short post!

Athviaro


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 06 July 2010, 18:20:03
That sounds like a very good idea, Athviaro. I agree  :grin:


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Mina on 06 July 2010, 19:06:40
Quote
How about Greek/Arabic/Hebrew characters instead?
Arabic might not work very well, since it's supposed to be written right-to-left I think.  But the other two might work. 

Quote
And I wasn't proposing that we should only use accents, but for some common ideas they may be useful, I think.
Oh, I think I get it now.  You mean something like how in English we sometimes write, for example, "&" for "and", right?  Yeah, that does sound like a good idea.   :thumbup:


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 06 July 2010, 20:46:09
You mean something like how in English we sometimes write, for example, "&" for "and", right?  Yeah, that does sound like a good idea.   :thumbup:

Sort of; like how in Spanish ao and ano mean different things.


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Jonael Tomeskrift on 15 April 2011, 05:41:52
In need of a couple of words:

From "Shielbearer(s) = Goruck" I gather that "Go" could be taken as the word for shield?

Is there a word for "diamond"? Or possibly "hard rock".. though diamond would be much more appropriate given that there's a play on the 'facets' of the precious stone..

Finally, "scales" as in the scales of a dragon, or any reptilian creature?

Cheers in advance ^^


Title: Re: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 15 April 2011, 06:47:44
Jonael, I didn't a bit of comprehensive work on breaking up orcish words Here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,5059.msg180568.html#msg180568)

From a few other words on the site, I determined that "ruck" was the word for shield, right at the beginning, it's also in the dictionary.

As for scales. The word maar seems to mean "hide" from what I wrote in the spined worm. I can't find an equivalent on the site or in the dictionary. So perhaps y'marr for scales? Small-hide?

Diamond: phra'koh from stone and the word for fight (khq) fighting stone (for its hardness). However, since I gather you want a diamond shape (actually a sort of rhombus I believe), try this on for size

Diamond shield: mih'vert'ruck: Four-point-shield

Mih from the elvish meh: 4. The dark elves taught the orcs originally.
vert from vertex :P
And the original rational for ruck was based on "noruck-chmer" meaning skirmisher.
Noruck "no-shield"
Chmer "weak arm"
Quote
A skirmisher meaning one who wears no armor or carries no shield and is not strong, in keeping with this:
In ancient and medieval warfare, skirmishers typically carried bows, javelins, slings, and sometimes carried light shields. Acting as light infantry with their light arms and minimal armor, they could run ahead of the main battle line, release a volley of arrows, slingshots or javelins, and retreat behind their main battle line before the clash of the opposing main forces. The aims of skirmishing were to disrupt enemy formations by causing casualties before the main battle, and to tempt the opposing infantry into attacking prematurely, throwing their organization into disarray. Skirmishers could also be effectively used to surround opposing soldiers in the absence of friendly cavalry.

Once preliminary skirmishing was over, skirmishers participated in the main battle by shooting into the enemy formation, or joined in mele combat with daggers or short swords. Alternatively, they could act as ammunition bearers or stretcher-bearers  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher)