Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Languages and Runes => Topic started by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 January 2002, 03:21:00



Title: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 January 2002, 03:21:00
If you develop new styrásh (elvish) vocabulary, please reply to this thread mentioning the new words, along with gender (if it is a noun) and the translation(s).

From time to time this thread will be emptied when all accumulated words are put into the styrásh dictionary on the site.

You can/should use the typical endings to construct correct elven words! Here they are:

Typical endings of nouns:

Masculine endings:
-aér, -aín, -ál, -ála, -ásh, -én, -ér, -és, -éth, -éy, -íc, -íl, -ím, -ín, -ír, -óc, -óg, -ól, -ón, -ór, ós

Feminine endings:
-á, -ách, -aí, -áj, -án, -aó, -ár, -ás, -áz, -áth, -éf, -él, -erá, -eró, -eú, -euá, -ía, -iár, -ly, -só, -thán, -uá, -ýr


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 8/16/05 21:28


Title: Re: Probably
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 23 July 2002, 11:03:00
Requesting:
• You (or something to refer to another party)
• Long, short, etc (adjectives. I'm also not quiet sure how to use them. Do you just combine them to the front of the noun you want to describe using an apostrophe? Or do you not combine them? And how are adverbs used? The verb is suppose to go first but might you somehow combine the adverb to the beginning of the verb? Sorry.. too many questions.. @.@; )
• Who, Where, How, When (words used to make simple questions)

We may want to consider a page that just has simple phrases on it like "How are you?" "I am well" "My name is _____" etc. We have to take into consideration, I think, the fact that most people don't know German or French and probably haven't had much exposure to it. It's just a suggestion, though. ^_^''

o.o; Did I just go off-topic? >.< Maybe someone can develope the Styrásh word for "sorry" for me?

...Ripples in the Dream Pool...



Title: Re: re
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 07 December 2002, 23:46:00
www.santharia.com/runes/styrash.htm

Ok, things we need:

Hello (Maybe Good Day, Good Morning, and Good Evening)
Thank you
You're Welcome
Goodbye
Goodnight
Good luck
Colors: Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple, White, Black, Pink, ect.

...Ripples in the Dream Pool...



Title: Re: re
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 April 2003, 14:40:00
I've noticed the following problems/contradictions when integrating the new vocabulary:

RAYNE:

Bird: shátin
Cow: moúln
Cry, to: lótus’chuhán (lit. tears falling?), "lotus" also cannot mean "tears", that's not a styrásh word
Horse: gélnár ("horse" is already existing)
Lovely: aláen (sounds too similar to aleán)
Spirit: ó'cár'chón (have implemented that as ó'chón'cár)
sható: wing (is not an elvish ending, implemented it as shatór)
Winged: shátoén / shácén (also not elvish; I've added now shatán=to fly, therefore shatí=winged in the sende of flying)

VIRESSE:
Maevrhan: to Fly (aside from the fact that I've created another word for "fly" already - I think "flying tribe" wouldn't fit too well for the Maeverhim, don't you think?)

TIMERAS:
ko: great (doesn't sound elvish, changed that to chó)

SILFER:
elíanar - heal (not an elvish verb, verbs end with -án, changed it to elián)
carél-thee/you (you is already existing, see verb conjugation, now added)
aríne-to strike (not an elvish verb, verbs end with -án, changed it to arneán)
in'arenán- un-able (to be unable = changed to e'arnán)
lanié-to fly (no elvish word, already decided above)
Lianér- with (not very good to have a long word fo such an important word; changed to é)
tú-for (doesn't sound elvish either, also a short word is better, changed to í)


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Title: Re: re
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 July 2003, 10:35:00
There are differences of course, some of these differences are also mentioned on the site at the Styrásh entry. Elves are very nature oriented and therefore express things completely different. Quoted from the entry:

So if an elf wants to express that it's raining he'd say (translated) "the sky gives water" or if it's dark he'd say "the sky negates color".

Very significant in this respect is the preposition "ésh" (untranslated word), which expresses ideas of other races the elves don't have in their language , for example "ésh-dél" meaning some kind of "(false) magic", or at least an idea of magic which is not original to elves.

I assume dark elves have their own twists in language, expressing their differences to "normal" Styrásh.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/13/03 18:36


Title: Re: Word needed
Post by: Wren on 11 October 2003, 14:08:00
Aheharán - to be uncultured or unelven
Aheharás - Heathen, Uncutlured Female. Dervived from Ahrhim. Also a derogatory term for one from this tribe
Aheharós - Heathen, Uncultured male. Dervived from Ahrhim. Also a derogatory term for one from this tribe
Ahehari - plural?


Anodd yw dwyn dyn oddiar ei dylwyth



Title: Re: Word needed
Post by: Wren on 11 October 2003, 14:24:00
cár'ámn - Muse
 


Anodd yw dwyn dyn oddiar ei dylwyth



Title: Re: Word needed
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 13 October 2003, 11:50:00
Can we make cár'reóll also mean "focus" or "center"? Because the elves believe that the heart should always be the focus of ones feelings and emotions, thir behavior, the center and thus the most important part.



Title: Re: Word needed
Post by: Wren on 14 October 2003, 15:00:00
We have a word for centre. But I don't see why, as in English, we can't have words with overlapping meanings. Such that one means Focus, Center in a more spiritual sense of the words and the other means Certer, Middle in a more geographic/mathmatical sense of the word.


Anodd yw dwyn dyn oddiar ei dylwyth



Title: Re: Injèr’merín
Post by: ishmaelion on 05 September 2005, 06:08:00
Hahahahaa, I searched for injer'merin but I totaly forgot to search sunflower:p ;)

Maybe I'll change it into injèr'cál'merín (desert-flower)
I'll look it up first though...:rollin

It's clean:thumbup  

Ishmaelion



Title: Wolf
Post by: Shadowokami on 16 September 2005, 18:36:00
I think this one is good...
Wolf = Kerásh  



Title: Present participles as adjectives
Post by: Anwulf on 19 November 2005, 02:45:00
I know it's a bit late to make this observation, but "revolting" can also be an adjective as in "What a revolting smell!"

I can't remember the rule for this off the top of my head, but only certain types of verbs can be used as adjectives in their present participial form. Another couple of examples are "continuing" and "fascinating".

However, Styrásh won't necessarily form deverbal adjectives in the same way.



Title: Further thoughts on participles as adjectives
Post by: Anwulf on 06 December 2005, 07:40:00
I guess unless Artimidor says that Styrásh does something different, it'd be OK for you to use jhéhelli "revolting" as an adjective.



Title: words for invisible and for mouth
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 07 December 2005, 15:14:00
I need a word for invisible so

ó'vaián ever + seen for visible

e'ó not ever or never

e'ó'vaián never seen or invisible

I also want to use a word for mouth so i figure

phóilánaér for maker

Old Ylffer krètén'phóilánaér for noise maker or mouth

modern Styrásh shortened to krèténaér in the Nymbelmarian diallect this is krètánaér.







Title: Re: Present participles as adjectives
Post by: Bard Judith on 07 December 2005, 22:02:00
I also want to use a word for mouth so i figure

phóilánaér for maker

Old Ylffer krètén'phóilánaér for noise maker or mouth

modern Styrásh shortened to krèténaér in the Nymbelmarian diallect this is krètánaér.



Hmmmm....   Not to be obvious, but why wouldn't elves just call a mouth a mouth?  I know they have a philosophical culture but generally body parts and basic things like that have simple, 'root word' names.  I really can't see an elven baby trying to lisp her way through the tongue-twister above!

It would be more likely that the word for 'noise' comes from the word for 'mouth' than the other way around....

With that in mind, why not simply give the syllable 'kre' (if not already assigned in Styrash) the meaning 'mouth'?





:hammer  



Title: Re: words for invisible and for mouth
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 08 December 2005, 04:32:00
You've got a real god point.

have krè for mouth in both modern and acient dialects then

Old Ylffer krèt for "to talk"

Old Ylffer krètánoa for talkative

which is where we get the modern Styrásh words

krètén for loud (this is the only word here thats not new)

krètán for talkative

Theres a lot more cognents that could be derived here but I only need the root word.



Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Elrond Zook on 18 April 2006, 15:54:00
:jawdrop way to complicated for me, so... keep it up!! lol:jawdrop  

SBaHD Santharian Beast and Herb Developer



Title: Re: New vocab suggestions
Post by: Anwulf on 06 June 2006, 06:23:00
This is in connection with the thread about noun affixes.

I went through the latest vocab lists I had, and created the following nouns from adjectives using the affixes listed in the grammar. This is all completely non-canonical, and I'm just inventing functions for each affix. I've put the source adjective in brackets after the entry. There are a couple of double entries where the same Styrásh word has been given two different, but related meanings in English.

None of the following words has any official status at the time of posting.

A
ability (n) arnerá (f) — (árn (adj) able)
activity soorál (m) — (soór (adj) active)
anger tanés (m) — (tán (adj) irate)
antiquity entinách (f) — (entiná (adj) ancient)
attraction gakkuá (f) — (gákk (adj) cute, little)

B
bulk ilár (f) — (íl (adj) enormous)

C
clarity leryráz (f) — (lerýr (adj) clear)

D
dark mohíl (m) — (móh (adj) dark)
depth morás (f) — (mór (adj) deep)

E
elegance vashenár (f) — (vashén (adj) graceful)

F
falsehood ishím (m) — (ísh (adj) false)
freedom enayái (f) — (enáy (adj) free)

G
glow enaelár (f) — (enáel (adj) bright)

H
height kaiól (m) — (kái (adj) high)

I
illusion deleró (f) — (dél magical)
isolation ylfferéth (m) — (ylffer (adj) alone, isolated)

L
liberty enayái (f) — (enáy (adj) free)

M
magic deleró (f) — (dél magical)

N
noise kreteníl (m) — (kretén (adj) loud)
novelty shenerá (f) — (shén (adj) new)

P
perfection ylfiaruá (f) — (ylfiár (adj) perfect)
protection eáj (f) — (eaá (adj) protective)
permanence inéf (f) — (ín (adj) permanent, rigid, stiff, fixed, unmoved)
piece linená (f) — (linén little, small)
purity raugierá (f) — (raugií (adj) pure)

S
saltiness puenér (m) — (púe-én (adj) salty)
silence salenár (f) — (salén (adj) quiet)
size unnáo (f) — (únn (adj) big, huge)
softness munér (m) — (mún (adj) soft)

T
talent shireníc (m) — (shirén (adj) clever)
tastiness shigenál — (shi-gén (adj) tasty)

V
vanity merá (f) < [[mé] erá] — ( (adj) conceited, vain)

Edited by: Anwulf at: 6/5/06 14:23


Title: Re: Word needed
Post by: Bard Judith on 06 June 2006, 08:01:00
What lovely words!  Your choice of vocabulary is also apt considering the elven culture - as I like to joke, etymology recapitulating philosophy...

Dwarves, for example, don't HAVE a word for elegance - although I suppose if they wanted to express that concept they might say something like 'elvish-looking'... :lol  

I also like 'cute':  can't you just picture a young elf maid leaning over a cradle and gushing "Oooooh, gaak-gak-gaaaaaak!"  :p  



Title: Re: Word needed
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 June 2006, 13:50:00
Cool stuff - I'll look through it and will add this list to the vocabulary if I don't see problems - but I guess you have a firm grip on Styrásh and know much more explicitly than I do in an implicit way:)  


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Title: A new suffix
Post by: Anwulf on 07 June 2006, 20:43:00
I think I'm far from getting the hang of Styrásh, but this will help when it comes to the formation of new words.

I've thought of one other word

rigidity (n) inerá (f) — ín (adj) rigid

Also, I'd like to propose the suffix -(e)lán which would form verbs from adjectives, hence

activate (vb) soorelán
beautify (vb) avathelán
brighten (vb) enaellán
free (vb) enayelán
raise (vb) kailán
etc.

I won't go through a whole list.

I thought that the -e- would be omitted if

a.) the adjective ends in a vowel (e.g. melán (vb) to think highly of oneself < (adj) conceited) or
b.) the adjective ends in -l- (e.g. illán to enlarge < íl enormous)



Title: Re: New vocab suggestions
Post by: Lady Cherri on 16 June 2006, 16:50:00
Umm, sorry I have nothing to contribute in this area for it seems I am not the only one who does not dare the butchering of the elvish language, but I have not seen yet of something that would help communicate gratefulness.  Like Thank You.  I have seen the 'you' but not the Thank or Thankful.  I guess as Twen used, “Avathcin avél” which means beautiful thought is about the only thing I have seen yet.  Is this correct?  There isn't anything more?

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Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Ranthar on 12 August 2006, 20:03:19
Very interesting!  :)
But I still don't think that I will ever master Styrásh.  :huh: ...way too complicated...  :huh: No, not even this one.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 12 August 2006, 20:17:05
Ranthar ,why do you post in areas when you have nothing to contribute?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Thuja on 19 October 2006, 06:35:17
There isn't really a word for wet yet.  So I propose this

wet - covered with water

táe'lianér'már (old way maybe?)

derived to maybe one of these

táliamár (f)
tálimár (f)
táe'limár(f)


Then with this we could make a word for marsh

tálimar'cál  (just my choice meaning 'wet land')

then salt marsh could be

tálimar'oncál  (meaning 'wet salt water land')

just an idea, would need someone to check out if this would work :)





Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 19 October 2006, 07:50:10
Well, ''covered with water'' should be more along the lines of táe'marthé, making use of the ablative suffix, but once that is acheived and shortened to tamarthé or something like that, your ideas using -'cál and -'oncál are perfectly fine!  Personally, I think the word tamarthé'cál is one of the more beautiful words that I have seen in this language... It just sort of rolls nicely off the tongue, y'know?  :)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 October 2006, 06:11:51
Well, your constructions might be grammatically correct, Ysuran, but in general - if you look at various composed Styrásh words - we go usually for the short version, consisting of the roots of the two words only. That isn't uncommon in other languages either.

Look for example at the word "táe'lón", which means "covered wood" while in fact it's just "cover" and "wood". Same thing applies here, so Thuja just works from how we've done it so far.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Thuja on 21 October 2006, 01:36:07
Okay, then how about this,

tálimár -  for small things that are wet, like say hands, a shirt, etc.

and

tamarthé - for large things that are wet like a march, swamp, bog etc.

then can give the endings to say what kind of large wet area

I really like the word tamarthé'cál for marsh.  I think that the language would use such a derivation and I think the elves would have seperatated a simple idea from a much grander one too.  (or maybe not :) )


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 21 October 2006, 01:50:14
I have a proposition for the expression ''I am sorry'':

     iú'styrá'glásá - (I be grief)

also this could be used for ''I am sad''

And for the ''am'' (as in ''I am'')

 styré- (as an extraction from ''styrán'' (be)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 08 December 2006, 10:28:00
Although inventive, Arceon, your second proposition is not totally necessary.  You see, the am in ''I am'' is encompassed in the first person singular conjugation of the verb styrán, meaning 'to be.'  It is much like Spanish - you would not express the thought ''I am here'' by saying Yo [am] aquí because saying estoy aquí encompasses that 'am'.  The helping verb is not really necessary.  I'm not entirely sure I explained that as best I could; I am sure Anwulf II, being a more experienced philologist, can provide a clearer explication for you.

I do rather like the way that styré looks when typed out, though.  Perhaps we could find another use for it?


Title: Some new unassigned words...
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 08 December 2006, 11:00:10
I thought that I'd post some random Styrásh-sounding words that haven't yet had meanings assigned to them, and let everyone's imaginations run wild.  I've posted little mini-commentaries about what I think they could mean, but they are merely suggestions.

auón = taken from the first four letters of my surname.  Sounds as though it relates to the light and goodness in the world to me [English aura, Styrásh auón, there's a similarity... at least I think there is].

kerásh = I remember this being suggested earlier as meaning ''wolf'', but to me it seems more like an insult, or a name that little elflings would call each other mockingly....

''Oh, Ysurán, thou art about as deep as a river and surely twice as murky.''
''Speak ye verily, Aehrín?''
''Aye, Ysurán. I speak naught but the truth.''
''It is well for me, though, that I am not such a kerásh as thee!''

and finally,

aorán = seems to me to mean something like ''to fight'' or ''to strike'', seeing as aór is listed as meaning 'club.'  That was unintentional, but oddly convenient, don't you think?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 08 December 2006, 16:48:30
aura, the natural (lit. "the living above")      noun (f.)      cár'áll      cár'áll


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 09 December 2006, 07:24:57
Well, yes, I knew that, Talia.  I was merely suggesting that auón's similarity to 'aura' suggested to me a connotation of light and goodness.
 I didn't say that it needed to mean 'aura.'

EDIT:  I'm sorry, that came out sounding incredibly rude and snappy now that I read it.  My apologies, Talia! :)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 10 December 2006, 19:35:54
We unfortunately already have "arneán" for "strike".  I like "aorán" though.  If it had meant "strike", we could perhaps have "scalán" for "cut", derived from the word for "blade". 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Avisari on 11 December 2006, 20:21:53
I took a look at the styrásh dictionary, and found a that a word that could be useful was't there. The word is: learn. Any suggestions?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 12 December 2006, 05:53:56
Hello Avisari!  Why don't you zip on over to the Intro board and tell us a little more about yourself?

Anyways, regarding your question, how about one of these for ''to learn''?:

gorán or borán  =  both shortened from guorán bollím, meaning ''to devour knowledge.''

or,

ma'llán or misollán  =  both shortened from misoán bollím, meaning ''to increase knowledge.''

 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Avisari on 12 December 2006, 11:10:33
Will do!

Thank, that was really helpfull.  :grin:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 23 December 2006, 05:26:57
M'kay, so Art wanted a word for 'wise elvish saying' or 'proverb' or something of the sort, so here goes:

Soorán cár'reollthé means 'to speak from the heart', so we could shorten that to something like saltherá or carallthán.

And then you could also say soorán morthé, which means 'to speak deeply' [lit. 'to speak from-deep].  That could come out as mortherá (<- Ysuran likes  :grin:) or else so'morthá or something.

BING!!!!! Idea!!!!!  I think that I'll create elven names for some different forms of poetry.  Like, a couplet could translate as danár danarthé ('hand in hand'  :)) and shorten to danadár or danthará or the like.... I'm so excited!! 

What say you?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 December 2006, 16:28:00
Yeah, looks like an interesting idea - go ahead, Ysuran :)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 24 December 2006, 07:36:08
Here, I need this word for the poetry project - I think that I'll make it an entry, by the way - so I thought that I had might as well post it:

sór  -  ''word''
noun, m.
derived from soorán  -  ''to speak''


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 24 December 2006, 08:07:33
Whoops, need this one, too:

lytherá  -  ''poem''
noun, f.
loosely derived from ále'sorín, ''singing words.''

From whence can be derived

lytherán  -  ''to compose poetry''  (or ''to recite poetry''?)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 24 December 2006, 10:12:44
Wow, this is a very productive night:

quelthén  -  ''hidden''
adjective
derived from quél aelthá, ''away from eyes.''


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Myklamia Firebanisher on 20 January 2007, 11:04:28
well, I do have an idea for something similar to soulmate that is translated as "forever love"
it's called límín.  It doesn't have a gender, and as for colors...
orange:  Wissebe
purple:  Tuesen
black:  Ermal
yellow:  Filamia
other ideas for words include:  Arlankra, Similo, Talkarn, Doramaran, Papya, Aplam, Thrashak, Varamaak, Ofon, Judar, Lakrat, Celaon, Kimpalp, Cosetii, Dirpawl, Taramand Krior


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Bard Judith on 20 January 2007, 12:04:05
Myklamia - we appreciate your suggestions, but if you are going to use these ideas in your own fantasy world/universe and your resulting stories, we can't use them.  All contributions to the Santharian Dream must be unique and designed for the Dream.

Thanks, though!


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 21 January 2007, 09:54:20
Hello Myklamia!

I also have a few things to say to your contributions.

For one thing, you can't propose a word for Styrásh and say that it is derived from Styrásh when it isn't. Límín most certainly does not translate to ''forever love'', and it really doesn't look all that much like a Styrásh word, either.  In addition, you can't say that límín doesn't have a gender, as every noun in Styrásh is either masculine or feminine.  There are no neuter cases for anything in the language.

As for the other words you suggested - they wouldn't really fit into the language, either.  An example to defend my case:

Take, for instance, your proposed word for ''yellow'' - filamia- and the sentence ''The thieves are stealing the large yellow diamond from the elven noblewoman.''  When translated, this becomes:

Aferanté sá mí'leryorthím únn filamia kyrasthé sáh aferoía

Doesn't filamia both look and sound just a little out of place in there?

So thank you for your suggestions, but it just wouldn't be possible to incorporate them into the world we've made.

NOTE:

In the sentence above, I coined a word for ''elven noblewoman'' - kyrás.  It's derived from kái'styrás, literally meaning ''high (noble?) female elf''.  Therefore, we could also get kyrós for ''elven nobleman'' (from kái'styrós, ''high [noble?] male elf).  I'm not sure of the elves have nobles or not, but if they do, TADA!  We now have words for them.  :grin:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Clurion on 21 January 2007, 12:52:27
I'm not entirely good at this but i noticed their was nothing for honor or proud so I'm gonna try to make names for them so you cant ry if I fail or you can use mine, I don't care which.

Proud(masculine) = cár'aín

Proud(feminine) = avách

Honor(masculine) = aviásh

Honor(feminine) = artáj

I don't know if these are acceptable or not but just bare with me at my first and maybe last attempt.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 21 January 2007, 23:16:35
Actually, Clurion, these are fairly good words!  :)

A couple of things, though:

Adjectives, such as proud, don't really have genders, so you wouldn't need to say that. Regardless, I would take cár'aín over avách (this is because of avách's similarities to avásh, which means ''wind'' or ''air'').

Again, there aren't usually different forms of nouns which accomodate gender (unless one is speaking of a being or person, e.g. styrás ''female elf'' and styrós ''male elf''), so I would say that artáj would be acceptable for ''honor''.  This is because aviásh again bears a little too much similarity to avásh.

So overall, good job on your first attempt at this intimidating language!  ;) :thumbup:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Clurion on 21 January 2007, 23:38:18
thank you and i didnt know about which type of words were male female so i did that just incase, but thnk you for comments.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 February 2007, 17:48:26
Cór’aváth’cár’tuulén, meaning “black beauty (of) death" (Deadly Nightshade)


Title: Hey Art! Look over here really quickly...
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 09 March 2007, 07:55:20
We don't have a word for ''and.''  Care to do the honors, Art? :)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Clurion on 09 March 2007, 08:53:32
I also noticed another word that sounds like it should be here but isn't, I'm talking about the word bear, but I'm not sure if there is one, but just not integrated yet.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 13 March 2007, 06:09:12
You want a word for "and" - is that it, Quaélh'Orín? I suggest "ám" :)

@Clurion: I assume you mean the beast, not tne verb. In that case I suggest

pacór (m.) - bear (lit. "grabber")
pacán - to grab


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 14 March 2007, 01:27:53
Cór’aváth’cár’tuulén, meaning “black beauty (of) death" (Deadly Nightshade)

Just a note that you might want to keep in mind for compound formation in the future. I find from looking through the entries for D in the English-Styrásh lexicon that of the thirteen compounds which would be found in natural languages, eleven have the structure modifier + head, which is typical in German and English, and only two have the structure head + modifier (including, ironically, cár-tuulén "death" itself).

Following this pattern, which I'd expect to find throughout the lexicon, the compound above would more likely be cártuulén-aváth.

Like "deadly" in English, cór "black" is merely an adjective and too imitative of the English name of the plant. You could equally as well call it ýhtrecín cártuulén-aváth "poisonous death-beauty". Sorry, I'm kind of straying away from my original topic.

PS You've now got a word for "and", but there isn't one for "but".


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 March 2007, 04:38:17
Yes, that's a correct observation, Anwulf. I'd also go for the "ýhtrecín cártuulén-aváth" version now regarding the "nightshade" translation, makes more sense in general. So I'll change it to that and will update the vocabulary on the site that way. In general we should try to apply the modifier + head structure, there might be exceptions to the rule, as some words might have grown together "accidentally" - not everything in languages follows a perfect scheme. But we should keep that general rule in mind, I agree.

Ok, and here are two more words as a bonus...

but ... náh
or ... mésh

P.S. Vocabulary pages on the site have just been updated with the most recent additions. We have 564 words so far.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: mearenay on 18 March 2007, 20:16:32
Suggesting words for
The Ethereal Void:

Valayá (derived from valannia+ ayá = beyond the dreamer/ beyond dreams). Femenine

Dream:

Valá (again from valannia= dreamer).
Femenine

Bind

Dalorén


Also there seems to be no word for light in the Thar/styr dictionary.
Light:

Injýr ( derived from injóh- light creature and injéra- guide [ie the sun])

If there's already words for these sorry. Thanks everyone, and if I screw up please take pity on the humble newbie...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 18 March 2007, 23:26:13
Hello Mearenay!

I commend you on making an attempt at this most difficult of languages  :thumbup:, but there are some problems with some of the words you presented:

valá - ''dream''; we have already assigned the meaning ''wine'' to valá, but we do still need a word for dream.  Perhaps you'd like to propose another?  :)

dalorén - ''to bind''; all Styrásh verbs end in the suffix -án, but perhaps dalorán would work?

injýr - ''light''; we do in fact already have a word for ''light'' ( óh ), but it only shows up on the site in the Styrásh to Tharian Dictionary.  Art, we should probably do something about that...  ;)

Despite all of this, however, I don't see why Valayá couldn't serve as the elves' word for the Void.

Great first attempt; I am impressed!  :nod:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 19 March 2007, 13:59:13
Suggesting words for
The Ethereal Void:

Valayá (derived from valannia+ ayá = beyond the dreamer/ beyond dreams). Femenine

All right, what about valanán "to dream", from which comes valannía "dreamer" (where the agent noun suffix -ía causes doubling of the preceding consonant); and áll-valanyá "the ethereal void", where áll- means "over-, über- etc.", and the suffix - might mean "place where something happens".

That way consistency is maintained throughout this particular set of words.

Other words using the deverbal noun suffix - might be

art(i)yá "shrine, temple" (place of blessing)
avelyá "school, university" (place of learning)
avenniyá (the place where the elves originally woke??)
boll(i)yá "school, academy; library, archive" (place of knowledge)
eayá "fortress, stronghold, castle" (place of protection)
eliyá "hospital" (place of healing)
hylph(i)yá "watchtower, lookout point; observatory" (place of gazing)
klýuyá "ambulatory" (place of walking)
kyreyá "waiting room" (place of waiting)
maachyá "bedroom; guest room" (place of sleeping)
phoil(i)yá "factory, workshop; smithy" (place of making)
seoryá "factory, workshop; smithy" (place of building)
sooryá "council chamber; oratory school" (place of speaking)
stasiyá "podium; stage" (place of standing)
thamyá "council chamber; committee room" (placing of arranging)
valtúr(i)yá "vault; chest, strongbox" (place of keeping)

Of course, none of these words has any official status.

Apart from the fact that a word for "light" already exists, the word for "sun" in Styrásh only has that meaning by extension from the word for "guide". You couldn't derive a word for "light" from that subsequently.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Bard Judith on 19 March 2007, 23:51:02
Those place words are both thoughful and euphonious:  I love how - for some reason - they have an almost magical mnemonic quality, a rightness and strength in the sounds which they make!   Just listen to the resonance of 'thamya' or the soothing elongation of 'maachya' (nearly a yawn!) - marvelously conceived.   


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Takór Salenár on 20 March 2007, 00:15:31
áll-valanyá - over/beyond the dreamer? = etherial void?

As far as I have understood the concept Art developed in the beginning, then there was nothing, not even a void, but all of it is a creation of Avá while she dreamt. She didn't just dream Caelereth, the disc and the air around it, but the Void and the VOID as well, so there is nothing possible "beyond the dreamer(=Ava)". Avá is not found somewhere in the air above the disc...

We would need probably two names, one for Void, the sphere where the air of Caelereth is interacting with the VOID and where the strange phenomena occur, and the nothingness outside the void, the VOID, where the sun runs along its path and the moon. (Not the stars!)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 20 March 2007, 02:50:08
I think it was mentioned in an entry somewhere that it's possible that Ava was just a normal person dreaming in the Void/Void (bolded because it looks nicer than capitalising the whole thing :grin:).  Of course, such an idea probably won't have been too popular, especially amongst the clergy...

From what I understand, Caelereth is a sort of 'bubble of reality' surrounded by 'nothingness' (Void), in which case the Void would be a sort of 'semi-reality'.  So, perhaps we begin with a word for 'reality' or maybe just 'real', then derive the name for the Void by adding 'esh-' to it, and the name for Void by adding some sort of negative modifier (perhaps the word for 'not', if we have such a word).  Alternatively, for Void, maybe something like ayá'chán, meaning 'beyond all', which sort of contrasts with aér'aí'chán. 

Edit: and perhaps éshdáth (not-real place) for the Void? 
Edit2: To be weirder, how about using Anwulf's new suffix, thus producing éshyá?  In addition to the weirdness of directly adding a suffix to 'ésh', it would have a meaning which I have trouble translating but which seems appropiate for the Void. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 March 2007, 05:58:22
Ok, let's see...

Óh ... (intense) light - indeed this word only shows up in the Styrásh to Tharian Dictionary as of yet, simply because the automatic page generator interpreted the brackets as a letter. So I've changed that now in the defintion, and next time I'll upload it, it will read "light (intense)", and this will show up in the Tharian part as well.

"Valá" we have for "wine", "Dreamer" means "valannía". So let's add a different syllable to make the word for dream - I suggest "valanáj" (feminine). Valanán" for "to dream" as Anwulf suggests is cool with me :)

Following his ideas "valanyá" would then mean "the place of dreams" (what could that be exactly?). "Áll-valanyá" however wouldn't work, due to philosophical reasons as Takór pointed out.

Anwulf's suffix -yá idea is great methinks - also the list he provides here I like very much, very good sounding Styrásh words, I'll add those just the way they are :) - Thanks for that!

In addition to that "éshyá" (non-place) for the Void sounds great to me, and it fits to the philosophy behind it. - I'd go for that!

"Dalorán" can't work for "bind", though, because actually we've already used the word "dalór" on the site already, it only hasn't found its way into the dictionary yet (see the entry on the Dalór (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/dalor.htm) and derived from that the Healers of the Dalorins (http://www.santharia.com/people/white_nehtorians.htm)). The explanation there though (moving/rising sparks) is a bit inaccurate, literally it means "riser" or "the one that rises" (see "dalán" = "to rise").


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 20 March 2007, 06:30:40
Well, no, dalór would work to mean ''rising spark'', Art.  We have ór as meaning ''spark'' in the dictionary, so dál'ór, ''rising spark'', fits. 

Do we have any ideas on what ''bind'' could be, though?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 20 March 2007, 10:30:29
Ok, let's see...

"Valá" we have for "wine", "Dreamer" means "valannía". So let's add a different syllable to make the word for dream - I suggest "valanáj" (feminine). Valanán" for "to dream" as Anwulf suggests is cool with me :)

Anwulf's suffix -yá idea is great methinks - also the list he provides here I like very much, very good sounding Styrásh words, I'll add those just the way they are :) - Thanks for that!

You're welcome. :) I'm glad I could contribute something.

Would there be any call for the word "scriptorium" (i.e., place of writing)? I've just had a look at the English-Styrásh word list, but the verb "write" is absent. The word for "write" often has its origin in the means by which the letters were written. For example, words like "scribe", "script", etc. come from a verb that originally meant "scratch"; but the word for "write" might also come from "draw" or perhaps "paint".

I don't know what the history of elvish writing is, but Styrásh letters look like they're written with a brush so that "write" in Styrásh might come from a verb that originally meaning "paint", but the meaning has wholly become "write".

And while we're about it, there are no words for "hear", "listen", or "read" either in the word lists.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 March 2007, 05:22:05
Ok, thus there are no inconsistences in "dalór", even better! :)

Some new words then:

hán'uasán - to bind (lit. "putting together"); tie together
uás - together

Another great suggestion regarding the write/draw origin - so I made a word for "to draw" and made "to write" a modification of it:

suanán - to draw; to paint
suarhán - to write

Also:

veiván - to read
geley - ear
rólgeyán - to listen (lit. short for "giving ear")
stygeyán - to hear (lit. short for "being ear")

Ok, all the words discussed in the last post were added via SLE - and uploaded as well already so that you can find them in the dictionary - hope you like them! :D


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 21 March 2007, 09:18:06
I see that you put dalór in the dictionary as meaning ''spark''...  However, we already have ór meaning ''spark''.  I was meaning to point out to you that there were no inconsistencies in the translation of the dalór creature's name, not suggest a new word for ''spark''.  The other words look great, though!  :)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 21 March 2007, 09:53:33
Another great suggestion regarding the write/draw origin - so I made a word for "to draw" and made "to write" a modification of it:

suanán - to draw; to paint
suarhán - to write

A couple more vocab suggestions from these:

suarh(i)yá "scriptorium" (place of writing)
suanyá "atelier; (artist's) studio" (place of drawing)

Quote
Also:

veiván - to read
geley - ear
rólgeyán - to listen (lit. short for "giving ear")
stygeyán - to hear (lit. short for "being ear")

Good choices for "listen" and "hear". I think they catch the sense of both words well.

And one last word for the moment:

veiv(i)yá "library, reading room" (place of reading)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 March 2007, 04:56:52
Okeydokey, I've added those words as well. :)

Don't know what the original meaning of dalór was now precisely, so the translation now reads simply "dalór insect".


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 22 March 2007, 05:22:56
Is there anything for which "styryá" might fit?  It should roughly translate to "place of being" if I've got it right. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 March 2007, 05:33:37
As "beings" and "elves" are pretty much the same thing in Styrásh, it could also mean "place of the elves" - e.g. an elven home.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 22 March 2007, 11:34:44
I'd agree with Art's definition of styryá as "elven home", although I'm not sure whether it's a legit word for two reasons.

"be" in English can be used as the verb of identity (describing as in "The cat is white"{1}; or saying what you do "My mother is a doctor") or existence (as in "I think, therefore I am (i.e., exist)") or even in the formation of location phrases (a little marginal perhaps, but "I am here", "She is there", "They are at home" etc.)

Which one is styrán "to be"? Or can it be used in all these functions?

The other reason is that this is a deverbal suffix. styryá would have to mean "place where people exist" (i.e., they're doing the existing). It could then mean "elven home" by association with the elves, but that's not its original meaning.

"Elven home" would be, if I have the right words, styáey-zoúm, an endocentric compound. (Perhaps styá-zoúm would be better, where sty(á)- could be a general element used in compounds to mean "elf" or "elvish"; thus, styá-cárscál "elf-sword"{2}; styá-galnós "elf-stone"{3}; styá-soór "elf-talk"{4}; stý-avél "elf-thought"{5} etc.)

Sorry, Art. I'm getting carried away again, but I seem to be feeling a bit creative this morning and I'm finding this discussion interesting.

Notes.
1. Styrát só feníl aelién in Styrásh. :)
2. Conceived as a weapon in a distinctly elvish style and not just a sword belonging to an elf.
3. Some sort of magical stone??
4. Either "language that's very mellifluous" (e.g. soorát styá-soór "He/she speaks very beautifully"); or a synonym for Styrásh.
5. The philosophy of the elves??


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 22 March 2007, 15:52:23
Quote
The other reason is that this is a deverbal suffix. styryá would have to mean "place where people exist" (i.e., they're doing the existing).
That's how I intepreted it.  Interesting, but doesn't seem to fit anything I can think of. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 March 2007, 05:36:50
Well, personally I always thought that the word "styrán" has this ambiguity that the English "to be" has as well, only that it has this "elf" part in the word itself already, giving it a cosmological importance.

The second point you mention - it means "place where people exist, do the existing". Yes, it actually would mean that in a general way, as such meaning just "house" perhaps. A human house would be a "styryá" as well following that interpretation.

Or, upon rethought, thinking in more metaphysical terms (I like that better), "styryá" could mean what the German "Diesseits" tries to express, contrary to the "Jenseits". Maybe that's what Mina meant implicitly. English doesn't have proper expressions for these words methinks, "Diesseits" (lit. "on this side") would mean "the here and now", "this world", "this life", while "Jenseits" (lit. "on the other side", "on the beyond-side") often means the metaphysical "herefater", "afterlife", or in other words: the "God-Place, which is not of this world".

The endocentric compound thing looks plausible to me the way you describe it, Anwulf. - Let's use it that way for substantives where we need to have elves in it!  :thumbup:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 23 March 2007, 05:39:15
Quote
1. Styrát só feníl aelién in Styrásh.  :)

Should be Styrát aelién só feníl.

Also, I thought that we joined elements to form words by apostrophe, not by hyphen.  Should we revise these then to say styá'zoúm and styá'cárscál then?  Actually, with ''elvenhome'' and ''elf-speak'' and some of the others, we could even have them as just one word, e.g. styazoúm and styasoór and such.

Finally, I have two more suggestions making use of the denominal place suffix - sphergyá or sphergiyá - ''palace, royal house'' (lit. ''place of the crown''); and dél'aeyá, dél'aeiyá, or dél'aeyyá - ''school of mages, arcane manifestorium'' (lit. ''place of mages'')

Just quick comments, I have little time as of right now...

Styraiáh artanhé!


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 23 March 2007, 11:04:23
Quote from: Art
Or, upon rethought, thinking in more metaphysical terms (I like that better), "styryá" could mean what the German "Diesseits" tries to express, contrary to the "Jenseits". Maybe that's what Mina meant implicitly. English doesn't have proper expressions for these words methinks, "Diesseits" (lit. "on this side") would mean "the here and now", "this world", "this life", while "Jenseits" (lit. "on the other side", "on the beyond-side") often means the metaphysical "herefater", "afterlife", or in other words: the "God-Place, which is not of this world".

English certainly doesn't have two words with the same rhetorical balance that "Diesseits" and "Jenseits" have. To me, a metaphysical sense for styryá seems fitting

Should be Styrát aelién só feníl.

In The Principles it says

Quote
The acting word in a sentence dominates the sentence. You

a.) begin with the acting word

and

b.) add the acting person(s) after the acting word

(phará qué, meaning "you are travelling") or

c.) at the end of the sentence

(this is because the subject is the least relevant thing due to the tight relation between the elves and nature), e.g. in the sentence: Pharanté es sá móchcin'lón énh styrín (translated: "The elves travel into the dark forest").

which means that both translations are correct. Theoretically. Here styrát is merely the copula verb so that although só feníl is the subject, it's not really an actor. However, I can think of a reason for preferring Quaélh'Orin's translation because the predicate is an adjective (i.e., potential stative verb.

Quote
Also, I thought that we joined elements to form words by apostrophe, not by hyphen.

That's just me. It's a certain phobia I have which largely results from the conlangs of Star Trek, especially Klingon, in which the apostrophe is apparently employed haphazardly in a bad imitation of the practice used in the recording of Native American languages, where it's a means of indicating that the previous segment is glottalised. As a linguist, I prefer to abide by traditional punctuation, viz. the hyphen, which I also find clearer visually. The hyphens can be changed to apostrophes in accordance with standard practice here.

Quote
Finally, I have two more suggestions making use of the deverbal place suffix - sphergyá or sphergiyá - "palace, royal house" (lit. "place of the crown"); and dél'aeyá, dél'aeiyá, or dél'aeyyá - "school of mages, arcane manifestorium" (lit. "place of mages")

In this case, you need a different suffix because "deverbal" means that the source of the word is a verb. Your examples are from nouns. In Latin, for instance, scriptorium is really the neuter sg of an adjective meaning "of a writer; of writers" which, by extension, has come to mean "the place where writing happens".

In English, we use the suffix -ery (e.g. bake ~ bakery; join ~ joinery) with nouns; so although there are no such words, I could say crownery or magery, although I only find the meaning of the latter transparent. Unfortunately, I can't view the word lists at the moment either directly, or via the menus, so I can't start poking around to see whether Styrásh might already have a model from which such a suffix could be extracted.

Just to make things clear (which I should've done before), this is how - is attached to the stem of the verb:

-VC or -VV – add -yá
-VVC or -VCC – add -iyá

In the case of the latter, the -i- helps with the pronunciation.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 25 March 2007, 19:43:14
Yeah, 'Diesseits' seems to fit. 

Quote
In the case of the latter, the -i- helps with the pronunciation.
Are you sure?  If 'y' were /j/ I'd agree, but it represents something like /ʉ/ (close central rounded vowel) IIRC, which I find pretty hard to pronounce either way.   :buck:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 25 March 2007, 21:54:39
I thought y was /j/ in this case, though /y/ in others, hence I suggested the epenthetic -i- after stems ending in a heavy syllable.

Wherever did the attempt to determine the sounds of Styrásh get to? Has it been written up properly?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 28 March 2007, 04:22:12
Well, Mina and I talked on Skype a while ago and he trancribed that a bit - see here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?topic=10711.msg126885#msg126885), the link jumps directly to Mina's post. Quaél'orín made an attempt to summarize Styrásh consonants a bit further down, see here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?topic=10711.msg132909#msg132909).

Still, as long as all this isn't put into one comprehensive page that can be put on the site with some explanatory text, this will drown in the Forum depths again.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 28 March 2007, 04:28:13
You know, maybe you and Anwulf should have a chat on Skype too.  He's almost certainly better at that stuff than I am. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 28 March 2007, 08:26:47
Quote
You know, maybe you and Anwulf should have a chat on Skype too.  He's almost certainly better at that stuff than I am. 

I second that.  While I do have a limited knowledge of phonology and phonetics, I am far more useful when it comes to the morphological and syntactical concepts of language.  Translation, derivation, even pure creation, I'm your man.

However, Anwulf has demonstrated far more knowledge of phonology/phonetics throughout my (note) *attempted* definition of Styrásh sounds.  I think that a collaboration is in order...  :)  What say you, Anwulf?

EDIT - By the way,

már'ehriyá or just simply ehriyá  ''fountain''  (lit. ''place of spewing [water]'')

Did I do that one right?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 28 March 2007, 09:42:38
However, Anwulf has demonstrated far more knowledge of phonology/phonetics throughout my (note) *attempted* definition of Styrásh sounds.  I think that a collaboration is in order...  :)  What say you, Anwulf?

We could certainly do that. :) I'm out of the zone until Friday next week.

Quote
EDIT - By the way,

már'ehriyá or just simply ehriyá  ''fountain''  (lit. ''place of spewing [water]'')

Did I do that one right?[/font]

That could work. For example the word for "spring" (water source) could be the "place of welling" from the verb "to well", but for fountains, you want something more forceful, although, I don't know, "place of spewing" doesn't seem elvish to me. It's a litle coarse. Perhaps a different word in this case. Perhaps a word based on "eject".

The stuff on Styrásh pronunciation needs to be rescued from forum oblivion. I thought (if I remember rightly) it'd got to the stage of being reasonably comprehensive, but needed to be laid out suitably and explained.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 28 March 2007, 11:07:09
Quote
I thought (if I remember rightly) it'd got to the stage of being reasonably comprehensive, but needed to be laid out suitably and explained.

Yep.  Art's most recent post in this thread has a link back to it, but I hadn't gotten around to setting out the vowels, diphthongs, triphthongs, or consonant clusters of the lanuguage yet.  Just consonants, so far.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 12 April 2007, 07:54:24
I know the original plan for this thread was to go through, add the words discussed and approved, and clear out the posts contained within so that we could maintain some cleanliness, so I thought I'd go through and compile a list of words in the thread which either haven't been properly addressed or were discussed but never added.

tamarthé ''wet'' (from táe'marthé, ''water-covered'')

cál'tamarthé ''marsh, swampland'' (lit. ''water-covered land'')

aorán ''to fight, commit violence'' (from aór, ''club'')

scalán ''to cut, slash'' (from scál, ''blade'')

ma'llán ''to learn'' (from misoán bollím, ''to increase knowledge'')

mortherá ''proverb, wise elvish saying'' (from soorán morthé, ''to speak deeply'')

sór ''word'' (from soorán, ''to speak'')

lytherá ''poem'' (*loosely* from alé'sorín, ''singing words'')

lytherán ''to compose/recite poetry'' (from the above  :rolleyes:)

quelthén ''hidden'' (from quél aelthá, ''away from eyes'')

kyrás (f.), kyrós (m.) ''elven noble(wo)man'' (from kái'styrás/-ós, ''high [noble?] elf (m./f.)

caraín ''proud'' (unknown etymology; ask Clurion)

artáj ''honour'' (same as above  :rolleyes:)

styryá ''(metaphysical) the here-and-now, this world, this side'' (lit. ''place of existing'')

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And here I present some of my own newly coined words:

aoryá ''arena, battlefield'' (lit. ''place of fighting'')

eraiyá ''fountain'' (lit. ''place of flowing'')

epthaerán ''to whisper'' (from epthaér, ''whisper'')

ahmerá ''response, answer'' (from ahmán, ''to respond, answer'')

eherá ''paper'' (shortened *liberally* from eaá'néh'pherán'amnanhé, ''forced tree-skin'')

eph(e)ne(r)á / enephrá ''bark'' (from eaá'néh'pherán, ''tree-skin'')

quilluá ''dance'' (from quillý, ''dancer'')

cyrathén ''gentle'' (from cýrath, ''gentleness'')

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Lastly I present some good-sounding words which have not yet had meanings assigned to them, but that I feel have a place in the language.

auón - Sounds as though it relates to the light and goodness in the world to me [English aura, Styrásh auón, there's a similarity... at least I think there is].

kerásh - I remember this being suggested earlier as meaning ''wolf'' (which we already have in ''áud''), but to me it seems more like an insult, or a name that little elflings would call each other mockingly....

''Oh, Quaélh, thou art about as deep as a river and surely twice as murky.''
''Speak ye verily, Aehrín?''
''Aye, Quaélh. I speak naught but the truth.''
''It is well for me, though, that I am not such a kerásh as thee!''

So there you have it!  :D


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 16 April 2007, 05:32:02
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aorán ''to fight, commit violence'' (from aór, ''club'')

scalán ''to cut, slash'' (from scál, ''blade'')
Maybe we could have aorán mean 'to hit with a blunt object'?  :D


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 16 April 2007, 07:36:58
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Maybe we could have aorán mean 'to hit with a blunt object'?  :D

I had thought of that, too, Mina ( :nod: ), but here's my qualm with it:

''To hit with a blunt object'' is such a specific definition that the word would hardly ever be used; also, we don't yet have a word for the basic concept of ''to fight.''  See what I mean?  I think that we should cover as many basic words as we can before we flesh out into the more specific ideas.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 16 April 2007, 12:03:01
Here are a few comments about the words:

tamarthé ''wet'' (from táe'marthé, ''water-covered'')

"Wet" is the sort of word that's non-derived because it's an element of basic vocab. Tamarthé sounds poetic, but not a word that's in everyday use.

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cál'tamarthé ''marsh, swampland'' (lit. ''water-covered land'')

támarthe-cál according to the general pattern of compounding I observed.

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aorán ''to fight, commit violence'' (from aór, ''club'')

I think it'd just be a denominal verb and simply mean "to club".

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scalán ''to cut, slash'' (from scál, ''blade'')

Again, "cut" is another element of basic vocab. scál is more likely to be derived from scalán.

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ma'llán ''to learn'' (from misoán bollím, ''to increase knowledge'')

Once more, "learn" is part of basic vocab. There doesn't seem to be any good reason for it to be derived in this way. There's no way that ma-llán could be derived from misoán bollím in a principled fashion. Rather, the verb would be miso-bollán. You could, of course, keep mallán "to learn" without it being derived from anything.

Also, I might argue that learning is the acquisition of knowledge.

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mortherá ''proverb, wise elvish saying'' (from soorán morthé, ''to speak deeply'')

Why not mór-soór which is at least nominal? (Or mór-sór using the next word.)

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sór ''word'' (from soorán, ''to speak'')

The only thing I have to say is "Why has the vowel been shortened?" Otherwise, I like this word.

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lytherá ''poem'' (*loosely* from alé'sorín, ''singing words'')

As above, the derivation is completely unprincipled. What's wrong with ále-sór which might mean "poem" as well as "lyric"?

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lytherán ''to compose/recite poetry'' (from the above  :rolleyes:)

You could simply use an analytic phrase such as phoilán ále-sorím "to make poetry" (or phoilan ále-sorthím – what's the gender of the noun?). I think earlier in this thread (?) or some other thread (?) I might've proposed a causative suffix. The equivalent verb in English is "versify" (literally verse-make {-ify}).

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quelthén ''hidden'' (from quél aelthá, ''away from eyes'')

Or just use the past participle of "hide" as we do in English or an adjective like "obscure". Besides, there are grammatical complications when you start using prepositional phrases as adjectives.

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kyrás (f.), kyrós (m.) ''elven noble(wo)man'' (from kái'styrás/-ós, ''high [noble?] elf (m./f.)

Unprincipled derivation again. Why would kái-styrás/-ós be subject to this degree of compression?

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caraín ''proud'' (unknown etymology; ask Clurion)

Never mind the etymology.

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artáj ''honour'' (same as above  :rolleyes:)

Again, never mind the etymology.

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aoryá ''arena, battlefield'' (lit. ''place of fighting'')

eraiyá ''fountain'' (lit. ''place of flowing'')

epthaerán ''to whisper'' (from epthaér, ''whisper'')

ahmerá ''response, answer'' (from ahmán, ''to respond, answer'')

All good, although I'd prefer erayá "fountain" without the -i-.

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eherá ''paper'' (shortened *liberally* from eaá'néh'pherán'amnanhé, ''forced tree-skin'')

eph(e)ne(r)á / enephrá ''bark'' (from eaá'néh'pherán, ''tree-skin'')

Sorry, but ugh. :) Paper could come from the thing from which the paper is made. The word in English is derived from papyrus, the reeds from Egypt which were used to make paper. Paper has also been made from rags, tree bark etc.

For bark, why not phéran-eeanéh (lit.) "tree-skin" (head of the compound on the right)? Or, better still, some non-derived word. You could keep, say, ephenerá, but without reference to some compound.

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quilluá ''dance'' (from quillý, ''dancer'')

cyrathén ''gentle'' (from cýrath, ''gentleness'')

More wordy goodness.

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auón - Sounds as though it relates to the light and goodness in the world to me (English aura, Styrásh auón, there's a similarity... at least I think there is).

Also Aurora, the Roman goddess of the dawn (related to Easter, the Germanic goddess of the dawn). I agree with the sense you get of the word.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 17 April 2007, 04:56:38
I think that some of the troubles which you pointed out, Anwulf, would indeed come from my (slightly eccentric, I know) derivation methods:

Unless there is an obvious and existing concept from which to derive the word (as in the case of ahmerá ''answer'' from ahmán ''to answer''), I usually just come up with a string of sounds that I think both fits the language and stays true to the feel of the word, and then scour the dictionaries to see if there is a suitable etymology which I may apply to it.  Eccentric, completely reversed, and very unorthodox, I know, but I am usually able to find a convenient etymology for those who are curious.  If they present some nastiness, though, there's no need for me to show them from now on, and I'll just let the word speak for itself.  :) :thumbup:

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"Wet" is the sort of word that's non-derived because it's an element of basic vocab. Tamarthé sounds poetic, but not a word that's in everyday use.


Yep, I see the reasoning in that.  Why not... ''marthén'' or ''marén'', making use of the adjectivial suffix (<I think.  It seems a lot of Styrásh adj.'s end  in ''-én.'') while still keeping the feel of the word, i.e. már, ''water''.

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támarthe-cál according to the general pattern of compounding I observed.

Again, yep.  I think this was before we really started to enforce the compounding.  ''Cál'tamarthé'', I think, was in the footsteps of ''cál'artanhé'', a (presumably now incorrect) word in the Principles page meaning 'blessed land.'  So maybe ''cál'marthén'' or ''cál'marén'', since adjectives aren't acting words, and so would follow the noun in a compound.

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I think it'd just be a denominal verb and simply mean "to club".


Sounds good.  :)

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Again, "cut" is another element of basic vocab. scál is more likely to be derived from scalán.


Yep.  Makes sense.

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Once more, "learn" is part of basic vocab. There doesn't seem to be any good reason for it to be derived in this way. There's no way that ma-llán could be derived from misoán bollím in a principled fashion. Rather, the verb would be miso-bollán. You could, of course, keep mallán "to learn" without it being derived from anything.

This is a prime example of my creation method.  I thought that ''ma'llán'' both looked good and sounded like it could mean ''to learn,'' and then I went searching for a way that it could have come from already-established words.  I do like ''ma'llán'', though; can we keep it, apostrophe and all?

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Why not mór-soór which is at least nominal? (Or mór-sór using the next word.)

Again, my strange creation methods at work here.  I think I'll stop creating etymologies unless they're obvious...  I am quite fond of the sound of ''mortherá'', though.

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The only thing I have to say is "Why has the vowel been shortened?" Otherwise, I like this word.

I did consider ''soór'' to mean 'word', but then saw that it was already an adjective meaning ''active, speaking.''  So I shortened the vowel.

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As above, the derivation is completely unprincipled. What's wrong with ále-sór which might mean "poem" as well as "lyric"?

My derivation again... I had had the word ''lytherá'' floating around in my head, and thought that 'poem' was a good meaning for it.  I do rather like it, though.

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You could simply use an analytic phrase such as phoilán ále-sorím "to make poetry" (or phoilan ále-sorthím – what's the gender of the noun?). I think earlier in this thread (?) or some other thread (?) I might've proposed a causative suffix. The equivalent verb in English is "versify" (literally verse-make {-ify}).

I had the idea that the elves would have a verb for 'versify' before they had a noun describing what exactly the result of their versification was.  ''Lytherán'', therefore, could have given rise to ''lytherá''.  ''Sór'', by the by, is masculine, so the accusative would indeed be ''sorím''.  And no, I can't recall the causative affix you proposed; do you perchance remember it?

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Or just use the past participle of "hide" as we do in English or an adjective like "obscure". Besides, there are grammatical complications when you start using prepositional phrases as adjectives.

Once again, ''quelthén'' just gave me this wonderful mental image of a little mouse scurrying to hide himself from a hungry cat.  Perhaps it could have come from a verb ''quelthán'' or ''quelthenán'', 'to hide'?

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Unprincipled derivation again. Why would kái-styrás/-ós be subject to this degree of compression?

''Kyrás'' and ''kyrós'' simply reeked of nobility in my mind, and ''kái'styrás(-ós)'' simply and conveniently happened to fit.  I need to stop etymologifying (<hehe, I just invented a word) these things and just present them as they come to me.

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All good, although I'd prefer erayá "fountain" without the -i-.

Alrighty.  That was a mistake on my part; I accidentally took the whole infinitive, ''eraián'' (-VVC), instead of just the stem, ''erai-'' (-VV), and so added ''-iyá'' instead of the proper ''-yá''.

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Sorry, but ugh.  Paper could come from the thing from which the paper is made. The word in English is derived from papyrus, the reeds from Egypt which were used to make paper. Paper has also been made from rags, tree bark etc.

For bark, why not phéran-eeanéh (lit.) "tree-skin" (head of the compound on the right)? Or, better still, some non-derived word. You could keep, say, ephenerá, but without reference to some compound.

Yep, makes sense... I used my ''intuitive derivation'', I guess you could call it, and thought of the ideas of 'paper' and 'bark'.  ''Eherá'' and ''ephenerá/enephrá'' (I rather like ''enephrá'' of the two) popped to mind, and let me tell you, it was HARD to fudge etymologies for those.  :buck:  Maybe, when the elves first created paper (by which time they had long since named bark), the creator gave it a name ''eherá'' which, while a distinctly different word, still was vaguely reminiscent of the bark and tree from whence it came?  :thumbup:?   :thumbdown:?

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Also Aurora, the Roman goddess of the dawn (related to Easter, the Germanic goddess of the dawn). I agree with the sense you get of the word.

Yep.  We should try and pinpoint a meaning for the word, though... :idea: : Perhaps the elves use it as a metaphysical term referring to the eternal contest of good against evil, with the sense of the word conveying that the elves believe the good will, in the end, prevail?  Or maybe it just means like ''torch'' or something...

Input?  Critiques?  Fire away...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 April 2007, 05:32:18
Hmmm... This is getting difficult to read for me, as the answers you gave, Quaélh'Orín, only quote Anwulf's comments and not the original word anymore, so I'd have to scroll up and down to actually see the words in questions and then read the comments 3 pages down. Ideal would be if you could put in the words in the final post, then we have all comments in it as well.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 17 April 2007, 07:58:49
Alrighty, Art, will do...  :) :thumbup:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 17 April 2007, 14:05:02
Quaélh, I'll PM you with a reply to your post in response to mine so that things don't get even more complicated than they already are. :)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 18 April 2007, 05:33:25
Hmm...I just realised 'oun' isn't in the dictionary.  I think it's been translated as 'portion' somewhere, though I'm not sure.  In any case, I'm sure the Elves have that word too, even if they don't use it the same way the Ximaxians do, so it should be in the dictionary. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 18 April 2007, 08:47:54
Alrighty, here goes... ( ''>'' means ''was changed to'', by the way...  Whichever word is closest to the given definition is the final form of the word.)
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tamarthé > marthén > marén ''wet''

In deriving this word, we established the denominal adjective suffix (a suffix which forms adjectives from verbs) -én, which, as Anwulf proposed to me in his PM, could lead to such words as:

avashén "windy"

ohén "light" (i.e., bright)

modén "earthy" (dirty?)

galnosén "stony" (or hard, maybe?)

ypherón "celestial, heavenly" (could also be ypherén, I think...)

ilarolén "silvery"

baianén "golden"
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cál'tamarthé > cál'marén > marén'cál ''wetland, swamp, marshy area (lit. ''wet-land'')''

As Anwulf pointed out and I agree with, Styrásh compounds are right-headed.  Unfortunately, we have some erroneous left-headed compounds, but they'll have to stand unless Art wants to go through and edit them all...  :shocked:  Please don't, Art, I'm kidding.  We just need to remember to make them right-headed from now on.
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aorán ''to club, bludgeon''
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scalán ''to cut, slash''
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ma'llán ''to learn''
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mortherá ''proverb, wise saying''
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soór > sór ''word''

Vowel shortened because we already have soór listed as meaning ''active''.
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lytherá ''poem''
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lytherán ''to versify, make poetry''
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quelthén ''hidden, obscure, concealed''

Note to Anwulf:  I didn't intend -thén as a variant on -én, merely a part of the adjective.  Let's not come up with a deverbal suffix just now, but keep -én as a denominal adjective suffix; this would mean that quelthén might have come from quelthá or quelthó, ''concealment, obscurity''?
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kyrás / kyrós ''(elven?) noblewoman/nobleman''

Should we limit this word just to describe the elven nobility?
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caraín ''proud''
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artáj ''honour''

Therefore, artajén for ''honourable''?  I like the way it sounds (ahr-tah-ZHEN).
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styryá ''the metaphysical here-and-now, this life (lit. ''place of existing/being'')''
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aoriyá ''arena, battlefield (lit. ''place of bludgeoning'')''
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cár'neyá ''abattoir, slaughterhouse (lit. ''place of killing'')''
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erayá ''fountain (lit. ''place of flowing'')''
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epthaerán ''to whisper''
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ahmerá ''answer, response''
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eherá ''paper''
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enephrá ''bark (of a tree)''
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quilluá ''dance''
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cyrathén ''gentle''

Fits nicely in with the denominal adjective suffix; from cýrath ''gentleness''.
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auón ''??''

I had said that perhaps the elves use auón as a metaphysical term referring to the eternal contest of good against evil, with the sense of the word conveying that the elves believe the good will, in the end, prevail.  However, Anwulf and I proposed some more mundane meanings for the word: ''hope'' (which I like a lot), ''dawn'' (also good), ''torch'', ''(ray of) sunlight/moonlight/starlight''.
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keirásh (keyrásh, maybe? The / ei / looks a little out of place to me, for some reason...) ''playfully mocking term; no direct Tharian translation''
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And then, as Mina said, we should add oún (pl. ounía, not oúns, grrr...) as a feminine noun meaning ''portion'' (or ''piece'', I suppose).
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Anwulf, I'll let you repost your deadjectivial noun and deadjectivial verb affixes to which you linked me in your PM, along with their respective wordlists.

One more thing before my fingers fall off from exhaustion:  I propose that [ y ] should also function as a voiced palatal approximant (as in English yes) when found preceding a vowel or between two vowels, as opposed to just representing a close front rounded vowel or a close central rounded vowel or whatever we decided it was.  Otherwise, such words as artiyá, erayá, seoryá, suarhiyá, and the like will be awfully hard to pronounce.

That's all for now, folks!  Whew...  :crazy: (< Hehe, Quaélh has gone blissfully, delightfully mad.)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 18 April 2007, 10:44:06
ypherón "celestial, heavenly" (could also be ypherén, I think...)

True. I wasn't sure which way to go, but if the stem is ypher-, then ypherén is the right form.

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lonén "wooden" (I don't know about this one.  I thought lón meant ''wood'' in the context of ''forest'', not the actual tissue of the plant used for furniture and the like... perhaps it described land which is ''woody'' or ''forested'' instead?)

Actually, scratch lonén. I wondered about using a collective noun in this way. "Wooded" and "forested" are bahuvrihis (i.e., having wood; having forest) for which Styrásh needs a suffix or two like -ed or -ful in English. There's -cín in avathcín "beautiful" and amncín "powerful", although the word list has -cín "like (ending -ish)". (I'd recommend changing this to -ful

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Note to Anwulf:  I didn't intend -thén as a variant on -én, merely a part of the adjective.  Let's not come up with a deverbal suffix just now, but keep -én as a denominal adjective suffix; this would mean that quelthén might have come from quelthá or quelthó, ''concealment, obscurity''?

-thén was occurring quite a lot, which is why I thought you might've had it in mind as a variant. quelthén from quelthá or quelthó certainly works.

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aoryá ''arena, battlefield (lit. ''place of bludgeoning'')''

aoriya with -i- after -VVC-. Perhaps poetic or colloquial.

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Although, it could also be scalyá (lit. ''place of slashing'') or cár'neyá (lit. ''place of killing'').  I almost like cár'neyá above the others.

cár'neyá would probably be "abattoir". Think of the word as "killery" like "bakery".

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One more thing before my fingers fall off from exhaustion:  I propose that [ y ] should also function as a voiced palatal approximant (as in English yes) when found preceding a vowel or between two vowels, as opposed to just representing a close front rounded vowel or a close central rounded vowel or whatever we decided it was.  Otherwise, such words as artiyá, erayá, seoryá, suarhiyá, and the like will be awfully hard to pronounce.

I'd have to agree. It's unusual for languages to have whole strings of vowels without any intervening consonants, and it seems to me that a lot of people have read y as /j/. Before a vowel, I'd naturally read y as /j/, but between consonants as a vowel, /y/.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 18 April 2007, 11:13:38
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I wasn't sure which way to go, but if the stem is ypher-, then ypherén is the right form.

The stem?  You derived the word, I assume, from the noun ypheró, ''sky''.  Would there be a 'noun stem' in this case?

Oh, and a question which relates to this - what happens to the last vowel in the noun if, in the application of the denominal suffix, there is a vowel conflict, e.g. ypheró ''sky'' > ypheroén ''heavenly > ypherón or ypherén?


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aoriya with -i- after -VVC-. Perhaps poetic or colloquial.

Yep.  My bad; I looked merely at -or rather than at the whole stem, aor-.

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cár'neyá would probably be "abattoir". Think of the word as "killery" like "bakery".

That would make more sense, yes.  Let's go with aoriyá for ''arena, battlefield'', then.

Will delete lonén from the list.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 18 April 2007, 12:18:42
Erm, I think doubled vowels like in soór are pronounced separately, rather than being long. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 18 April 2007, 13:46:02
The stem?  You derived the word, I assume, from the noun ypheró, ''sky''.  Would there be a 'noun stem' in this case?

Oh, and a question which relates to this - what happens to the last vowel in the noun if, in the application of the denominal suffix, there is a vowel conflict, e.g. ypheró ''sky'' > ypheroén ''heavenly > ypherón or ypherén?

That's a good question. Languages can go either way, eliding the final vowel of the stem or the vowel of the suffix. I'd opt for deletion of the stem-final vowel myself, hence ypherén. The general principle is then "Elide short, word-final vowels before -én"


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 19 April 2007, 04:57:07
On the suffixes first:

-cín will be changed to "-ful", meaning "full of", ok.
Question: Can the denominal adjective suffix -én be translated properly? Or more precisely: How would that be listed in the dictionary? Under which English letter would we find it?

Ok Quaél'Orín, I'm continuing on here, where I don't mention anything explicit the word should be fine from my point of view.

ohén - more precisely would mean bright, light-colored, lightish, fair, maybe even blond

Note: Whenever possible I try to provide more meanings for words, which are related or make the true meaning very clear, so that there are no misunderstandings possible. Also the more meanings we have, the more often the vocabulary shows up at various letters in our Dictionary, thus making it easier for everyone to find it... I would suggest to try to do that at other words as well, this makes things much more complete. Do find similar words it helps to type the English word in at a good online dictionary and you get a lot of related meanings, helping a good deal in this respect.

Also if words are constructed from other words, the meaning should be mentioned in brackets, like at "cál'marén", so that I can easily grab that and add in the vocabulary program "lit. "land/wet", which will appear at the word in the Dictionary right to it. It should be evident immediately.

Right-headed compounds: Yeah, it's good that we have Anwulf who can point such things out and give Styrásh a more consistent structure.

At some words (also in your first suggestions) the initial words are completely lost and it is hard to really construct it, like "mortherá" which should derive from "soorán morthé". I don't see much of the soór part here. Or the first version of "to learn", ma'llán (from misoán bollím) - seems quite far fetched. Personally if I like a longer word just for its sound, then I try to invent actually 3 words. The composed one and the two words that - put together and slightly altered - form this new word. I'd recommend such an approach as well. "ma'llán" also now doesn't seem to have a concrete deduction for example, or it is practically impossible to recognize. If there should still be two words in it, then I'd try to explain them better, or get rid of the ' in the middle and make one word out of it.

@Mina: "soór" indeed has two syllables, and it is pronounced that way. "sór" is good for "word" methinks :)

Again I have to agree with Anwulf on "lythera" where the loose source which you quote as "alé'sorín" is just not possible to read out.

-then could be a variant of -én - personally I think that looks quite nice!

"artajén" is quite a cool sounding word indeed

- "kerásh", see the Quaerash  (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/quaerash_lizard.htm) entry - could derive from the clumsy lizards (see Styrásh word "Kaerash"). Maybe a little more alteration would do good to this mocking term, like "keirásh" or something, to make it a somewhat derived word from that meaning.

- "auón" sounds like a very good word to me that could hav metaphysical connotations, just for the sound of it :) I think the way you described it as "hope" would give it a mundane meaning (perhaps also more technial: "optimism") and at the same time could be a cosmological priniciple in the direction of "trust in the eternal cycle of things", and as such it would be a hardly translatable metaphysical term.

oún - will be added, meaning "part, piece, portion"

Quote
I propose that [ y ] should also function as a voiced palatal approximant (as in English yes) when found preceding a vowel or between two vowels, as opposed to just representing a close front rounded vowel or a close central rounded vowel or whatever we decided it was.

Yes, I think I assumed implicitly that certain words would be pronounced more in that direction, so yup, agree.

All in all: Nice word list, some adjustments should be made here and there but definitely nice contributions, Quaél'Orín!  :thumbup:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 19 April 2007, 11:40:20
On the suffixes first:

Question: Can the denominal adjective suffix -én be translated properly? Or more precisely: How would that be listed in the dictionary? Under which English letter would we find it?

My original idea was that -én formed material adjectives from things like wood, earth, stone, metal etc. That means that there are several possible translations:

-en: wood ~ wooden; gold ~ golden
-y: stone ~ stony; wind ~ windy
-ic: metal ~ metallic

I think Quaélh's suggestion is probably best because it's general, but make the definition "suffix used to make material adjectives from nouns"

Quote
-then could be a variant of -én - personally I think that looks quite nice!

Might be a free variant; or some words take -én and others -thén, but without any particular pattern, a not unusual feature of languages. There are plenty of instances in English.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 20 April 2007, 10:35:13
Quote
Question: Can the denominal adjective suffix -én be translated properly? Or more precisely: How would that be listed in the dictionary? Under which English letter would we find it?

My best answer to that would be ''suffix used to make adjectives from nouns''.  I think it would be best if we grouped all of the suffixes we've created thus far under the English letter ''S''.

Concerning words like mortherá, ma'llán (in which I'd rather leave the apostrophe, if it's not too much trouble.  I think it gives the word a sort of exotic look; I think that ae'llán is the same way...), lytherá, etc., I think we decided that those words would just have to end up being basic vocab words which weren't specifically derived from a defined source.  Most of the words in the dictionaries are this way, unless I'm very much mistaken - created for sound and look rather than from pre-existent roots.

I'll go back in and add all overtly obvious etymologies into the wordlist.

Oh, and we might wanna add these as well (from the Quaerash entry which you wrote, Art):

quaer ''horn''

ashán ''to dig''

Also, Anwulf's affix which I mentioned in the wordlist post:

Quote
Also, I'd like to propose the suffix -(e)lán which would form verbs from adjectives, hence

activate (vb) soorelán
beautify (vb) avathelán
brighten (vb) enaellán
free (vb) enayelán
raise (vb) kailán
etc.

I won't go through a whole list.

I thought that the -e- would be omitted if

a.) the adjective ends in a vowel (e.g. melán (vb) to think highly of oneself < mé (adj) conceited) or
b.) the adjective ends in -l- (e.g. illán to enlarge < íl enormous)


There was no definite affix for the formation of a noun from an adjective; it seems he just went through and appended the masc./fem. word endings to the adjectives.[/font]



Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 20 April 2007, 14:46:56
I'm having certain doubts about the -(e)lán suffix. The basic idea is sound, but I'm not happy about the morphology. For instance, words like taluenelán "to (add) spice" look clunky. There's no need to be restricted to one suffix in this case.

Let me think about this some more.

Quote
There was no definite affix for the formation of a noun from an adjective; it seems he just went through and appended the masc./fem. word endings to the adjectives.

These are deadjectival verbs, not nouns. The ending is -(e)l-án.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 21 April 2007, 19:04:57
As promised, I've been thinking about the suffix forming verbs from adjectives (which have the basic sense "to make X{adj}"). I'm sticking with proposing -lán as the suffix, but with the following provisions:

1. The suffix is restricted to monosyllabic adjectives.
2. If the adjective ends in -Vn, then /n/ becomes /l/ (cf. English illiterate < in-literate).
3. If the adjective ends in -VCC (including -VCn), then the suffix becomes -elán.

You can see all these illustrated in the examples below. (As usual, the list has no unofficial status.)

A
ahmelán to passify < áhm "passive"
arnelán to enable < árn "able"

C
cholán to enlarge, expand < chó "great"
corlán to blacken < cór "black"

D
dailán to redden < daí "red"
dellán to imbue with magic < dél "magical"

H
harlán to hollow < hár "hollow"

I
illán to enlarge, magnify < íl
ishlán to falsify < ísh "false"

K
kailán to raise, heighten < kái "high"

M
melán to delude, deceive < "conceited"
mohlán to darken < móh "dark"
morlán to deepen < mór "deep"
mullán to soften < mún "soft"

Q
quaellán to brighten < quaél "bright"

S
shellán to renew < shén "new"

T
tallán to anger, infuriate < tán "angry, irate"

U
unnelán to enlarge < únn "big, huge"

To create something equivalent to this form, adjectives that are longer than one syllable are used with the verb phoilán "to make". (I've had to make up one or two words. They're in braces.)

phoilsiti só styrós {naián} enáy "The elf freed them" (lit. "Made the elf them free")
phoilsi iú sá ranthím lerýr "I made the reason clear" (lit. "Made I the reason clear")
phoilsiti só daín {nóim-chón} melád "The sky turned grey" (lit. "Made the sky itself grey")
phoilsinté sóh mód-ronnín só cár-scalím amncín "The dwarves imbued the sword with much power" (lit. "Made the dwarves the sword powerful")
phoilsi só rónn sá astharthím salén "The king quietened the crowd" (lit. "Made the king the crowd quiet")


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 21 April 2007, 22:56:26
Quote
These are deadjectival verbs, not nouns. The ending is -(e)lán.

I was referring to the words like inerá and ylfferéth you created from ín and ylffér, respectively.  It seems that you just went through the list of word endings which Art provided and randomly appended them to the adjectives which you chose, hence deadjectivial nouns.  Unless there was any set method that I missed?

Quote
To create something equivalent to this form, adjectives that are longer than one syllable are used with the verb phoilán "to make". (I've had to make up one or two words. They're in braces.)

phoilsití só styrós {naián} enáy "The elf freed them" (lit. "Made the elf them free")
phoilsí iú sá ranthím lerýr "I made the reason clear" (lit. "Made I the reason clear")
phoilsití só daín {nóim-chón} melád "The sky turned grey" (lit. "Made the sky itself grey")
phoilsinté sóh mód-ronnín só cár-scalím amncín "The dwarves imbued the sword with much power" (lit. "Made the dwarves the sword powerful")
phoilsí só rónn sá astharthím salén "The king quietened the crowd" (lit. "Made the king the crowd quiet")

:undecided:  I don't know about this, Anwulf.  It seems a little cumbersome and makes the sentences seem a bit long-winded.  I can't think of any ways to solve the dilemma, though...  Wait!  Perhaps -án, apart from being the trademark suffix which marks a word as being a verb (in most cases; there are some exceptions, I believe), could assume this function as well?  Thus we have:

phoilán enáy ''to make free'' >> enayán ''to free''

phoilán lerýr ''to make clear'' >> leryrán ''to elucidate''

phoilán melád ''to make grey'' >> meladán ''to grow/become grey''

phoilán amncín ''to make powerful'' >> amncinán ''to empower''

phoilán salén ''to make silent'' >> salenán ''to silence, quiet''

What do you think?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 22 April 2007, 02:10:05
I was referring to the words like inerá and ylfferéth you created from ín and ylffér, respectively.  It seems that you just went through the list of word endings which Art provided and randomly appended them to the adjectives which you chose, hence deadjectivial nouns.  Unless there was any set method that I missed?

Sorry. I wasn't sure which words you meant. Yes, I was rather random in their formation. It gives the language some variety. But something needs to be done about deciding what the functions of the noun-forming endings are. Which ones form nouns from adjectives and which ones form nouns from verbs?

Quote
:undecided:  I don't know about this, Anwulf.  It seems a little cumbersome and makes the sentences seem a bit long-winded.

It's a pretty standard syntactic structure in a lot of European and other languages. It's not really that complex. Honest. :) {1}

Quote
Wait!  Perhaps -án, apart from being the trademark suffix which marks a word as being a verb (in most cases; there are some exceptions, I believe), could assume this function as well?  Thus we have:

phoilán enáy ''to make free'' >> enayán ''to free''

phoilán lerýr ''to make clear'' >> leryrán ''to elucidate''

phoilán melád ''to make grey'' >> meladán ''to grow/become grey''

phoilán amncín ''to make powerful'' >> amncinán ''to empower''

phoilán salén ''to make silent'' >> salenán ''to silence, quiet''

What do you think?[/font]

I quite like this idea. :) I was looking for away to avoid making huge long verbs by adding -elán to adjectives.

Notes.
1. There are a couple of related sentence types here. One is "X(noun) make Y(noun) Z(adjective)" as in "The oil made the road slippery". Of course, "slippery", like many adjectives, has no corresponding verbal form, unlike sad ~ sadden, formal ~ formalise, pure ~ purify etc.

A related sentence type is "X(noun) make Y(noun) Z(verb)" as in "The headmaster made the pupils stay". (Cf. Sicilian Mi fa veniri lu lanzu "He makes me want to puke"; lit. "Me (he) makes (to) come the puke"; Bonner 2001:62.)

Sometimes there are other ways to say such sentences, but they won't necessarily be more elegant.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 23 April 2007, 02:22:13
Sorry to interrupt, but can anyone suggest a word that means more or less 'to cause to become like (something)'?  Would -enán (combining the -en and -an suffixes suggested above) work? 

Edit: Erm, come to think of it, even if it works, it's not quite what I'm looking for.  What I want is a verb. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 23 April 2007, 02:59:54
Quote
Sorry to interrupt, but can anyone suggest a word that means more or less 'to cause to become like (something)'?  Would -enán (combining the -en and -an suffixes suggested above) work?

Edit: Erm, come to think of it, even if it works, it's not quite what I'm looking for.  What I want is a verb.

Actually, this is exactly what Quaél and I are talking about. These verbs from adjectives are, properly speaking, called factitives and have the basic meaning "to make X(adj)" or "to turn X(adj)" or, as you put it, "to cause to become like (something)".

Thus whiten means "to make/cause to become white"; equalise "to make/cause to become equal". Quite a lot of factitive verbs are identical with the adjective (e.g. free "to make/cause to become free"; loose "to make/cause to become loose" etc.).

I've suggested using the suffix -lán with certain verbs (see list in my post above) above, while Quaél's suggested converting other adjectives to verbs by adding the infinitive ending -án.

So, which verb do you want?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 23 April 2007, 03:12:42
Well, I noticed you have a suffix that turns nouns to verbs (-en) and one that turns verbs to adjectives (-lán/-án), so I was wondering if you could turn nouns into verbs by using both. 

I was actually looking for a verb that would mean 'to cause to become like X' (where the X isn't part of the word).  I'm thinking it might not be very feasible though, if using the two suffixes above together is how such a meaning is normally expressed. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 23 April 2007, 11:40:39
Well, I noticed you have a suffix that turns nouns to verbs (-en) and one that turns verbs to adjectives (-lán/-án), so I was wondering if you could turn nouns into verbs by using both.

No, because these endings form verbs from adjectives, not nouns.

Quote
I was actually looking for a verb that would mean 'to cause to become like X' (where the X isn't part of the word).  I'm thinking it might not be very feasible though, if using the two suffixes above together is how such a meaning is normally expressed.

What part of speech is X? Is it a noun? Are you thinking of a sentence which means something like "X changed Y so that Y became like Z"? Or more simply, "X turned Y to Z"


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 23 April 2007, 12:35:39
Erm...
Quote
My original idea was that -én formed material adjectives from things like wood, earth, stone, metal etc.
So why not for example avásh 'wind' -> avashén 'windy' -> avashenán 'to make windy'?  I admit most of these words won't usually make much sense, but in certain contexts some might be useful. 

'X changed Y so that Y became like Z' is closer to what I was thinking of. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 23 April 2007, 18:34:10
Erm...So why not for example avásh 'wind' -> avashén 'windy' -> avashenán 'to make windy'?  I admit most of these words won't usually make much sense, but in certain contexts some might be useful.

That's perfectly possible. You could say

avashensití só daín "The day turned windy."


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 23 April 2007, 19:55:02
I thought such a construction would imply a cause, ie. "The day was made windy" (by a god, perhaps).  "The day turned windy" would probably be "nársití avashén só daín".  On the other hand, "tehl'nársití avashén só daín" would also seem to work for "The day was made windy" (assuming I did the compounding correctly). 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 23 April 2007, 22:01:31
I thought such a construction would imply a cause, ie. "The day was made windy" (by a god, perhaps).  "The day turned windy" would probably be "nársití avashén só daín".  On the other hand, "tehl'nársití avashén só daín" would also seem to work for "The day was made windy" (assuming I did the compounding correctly). 

You're straying into some complex syntactic territory here. :)

Above, I suggested a sentence such as

phoilsití só daín {nóim-chón} avashén "The day turned windy"

using a reflexive pronoun (nóim-chón "itself") because the subject is self-referential. The sentence is literally "made (verb) the day (subject) itself (object) windy (adj. complement)". Or, using the verb I suggested above, you could say

avashensití só daín {nóim-chón}

which has the same meaning as the previous sentence.

When the subject and object are different, you could also say

phoilsinté sóh coorín só dainím avashén "The gods turned the day windy"

where the subject (sóh coorín) and the thing affected (só dainím) are different.

Different languages handle this in different ways. Some languages would start throwing around reflexives; others, such as English, allow the subject to be the thing affected without an explicitly stated cause.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 23 April 2007, 23:21:49
Hmm...how did you get nóim-chón?  Noí + chón?  And won't that be more like 'themselves'?  Also, why did you put it in brackets?  Is it implied and thus doesn't have to be there?  I just noticed that 'só daín' is nominative, which probably means it's the agent (is that the right word?) in this case, as the statement doesn't seem to be passive.  That could imply a reflexive action, though I'm not sure. 

Would 'Avashensinté' instead of 'phoilsinté' work?  It looks more 'elegant' to me.  Also, while 'phoilán' means 'make', I'm not sure whether that's in the sense of creating something or causing something.  There's 'avachán' for 'create', but considering how it''s derived, it might only refer to the creation of the world, not creating in general. 

By the way, I think 'gods' would be 'aviaría'.  'Coór' is the name of one of the gods, and an evil one at that; I'm not sure why it was defined as 'God' in the dictionary. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 24 April 2007, 00:50:22
Hmm...how did you get nóim-chón?  Noí + chón?  And won't that be more like 'themselves'?  Also, why did you put it in brackets?  Is it implied and thus doesn't have to be there?

It's in braces because I made it up for the occasion. Actually, I'm now inclined to prefer nóm-chón (on the pattern of English "him-self"). It's actually there in the sentence, not optional. (If you know French or Italian, think of reflexive verbs in those languages.)

Quote
I just noticed that 'só daín' is nominative, which probably means it's the agent (is that the right word?) in this case, as the statement doesn't seem to be passive.  That could imply a reflexive action, though I'm not sure.

The thematic function and syntactic function are two different things. You're right that só daín is nominative and the subject, but thematically it's has a patient role.

Take the sentence

The stone hit the wall.

As we know, stones can't hit walls unless they're affected by some external agent such as a person. Therefore, although the stone is the subject, it's not the agent. Most of the time you don't need to worry about this stuff.

Quote
Would 'Avashensinté' instead of 'phoilsinté' work?  It looks more 'elegant' to me.

Yes, it would. I agree that it'd be more elegant, but the construction I'm using is quite common cross-linguistically.

Quote
Also, while 'phoilán' means 'make', I'm not sure whether that's in the sense of creating something or causing something.  There's 'avachán' for 'create', but considering how it''s derived, it might only refer to the creation of the world, not creating in general.

I didn't know what the exact sense of phoilán was, but again, using what I know about languages, it's not unusual to use "make" in this way (cf. French faire and Italian fare; Welsh gwneud). At one time English used "do", but there are several possible verbs here: become, turn etc. In other words, verbs to do with changes of state.

Quote
By the way, I think 'gods' would be 'aviaría'.  'Coór' is the name of one of the gods, and an evil one at that; I'm not sure why it was defined as 'God' in the dictionary.

I wondered about that, but it was the only word which I could find. I didn't know about aviár "high spirit".


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 24 April 2007, 01:07:43
The stuff about functions is confusing.   :buck:

Where did the 'm' in nóm-chón come from?  And maybe chón alone would work too?  Also, how do reflexive verbs in French and Italian work?  I only know Mandarin and English, unfortunately. 

The dictionary might need some cleaning up, I think...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 24 April 2007, 02:49:37
Where did the 'm' in nóm-chón come from?  And maybe chón alone would work too?  Also, how do reflexive verbs in French and Italian work?  I only know Mandarin and English, unfortunately.

The -m comes from the accusative ending. I've merely adapted it for use with "he" and "she". You could use chón alone like 自 zì in Chinese, I guess. For example, vaisití nó/ná chón "He/she saw himself/herself".

Reflexive verbs take a pronoun as a direct object to complete their sense. For example, Italian alzarsi "to get up", mi alzo "I get up" (lit. me I get up). They're often used with verbs where you'd naturally do something to yourself, and might have a non-reflexive counterpart such as "cut" in English (e.g. I cut myself ~ I cut the bread). In Italian, like ordinary object pronouns, the reflexive pronoun precedes the verb.

Quote
The dictionary might need some cleaning up, I think...

I agree. I was looking at it yesterday and noting many omissions, and some errors.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 May 2007, 03:45:33
Just a note here: In the last update I've integrated practically everything in the structured posts of Anwulf (Post #54) and Quaélh'Orín (post #281).

Integration works only if things are organized pretty well and are ready for taking as is, so that it can be prepared. The "New Styrásh Vocabulary" thread is meant to contain only the results of the discussions, not the diiscussions themselves. I advise therefore to make own threads in the future, discuss things directly there, and always update the first post with the final result, which then is ready for taking. Either in entry-like form (Styrásh grammer, tenses etc.) or in vocabulary form, that eventually finds its way into the sticky topic in order to get integrated.

Right now this thread slowly turns into chaos, and valuable information will be lost, as it doesn't make it on the site due to the lack of structure.

I recommend that things about suffixes and stuff should be collected into own threads, structured and explained a bit, so that we can make own entries (or sections of entries) from that. Anwulf, as you have established these main concepts - could you try to summarize things perhaps in an own thread if you have some time on your hands? Otherwise already elaborated things will get lost again, and we definitely don't want that, eh? ;)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 16 May 2007, 15:43:22
All right. I'll go through the thread, see what I can extract from it, and write it up.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Ivaebhín Lateu on 19 June 2007, 09:11:47
I planing on a name I found somewhere else, but I don't think it's here. The word is:

Ivaebhín = Boy filled with brightness.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 June 2007, 03:06:54
I don't know where you got that name from, but it's not Styrásh, or not a composition of Styrásh words from the vocabulary, also doesn't sound very elven. So with other words: This can't go into the Styrásh vocabulary.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Lady Cherri on 26 July 2007, 04:53:36
Just asking but where are a list of titles in Styrash like Archmage, King, Queen, Princess, etc.  I know that due to some of these titles not existing in the their way of life it may be difficult, but shouldn't they still have the words in their vocabulary.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 July 2007, 05:07:22
There's no such specific list as of yet, also elves don't have Kings, Queens, Princesses - the functions might appear similar, but elves have completely different society structures.

Rulers of tribes however have the title "Rónn" (male) or "Ránn" (female), and their heirs have titles like "Ac'rónn" ("male heir to the ruler") or "Ac'ránn" ("female heir to the ruler"). Hope that helps a bit.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Benedict Bennett on 02 August 2007, 03:06:32
Sorry to intrude on such holy ground but for my CD I was hoping to create a sword with the words "Sword of Justice" or something similar engraved within the temper line area.

I found the word cár'scál which is translated sword and rofú interpreted as just.

this is for a paladin of Armeros and I thought it might be appropriate.

Looking at tense it could be either past or present.

Perhaps a phrase such as he that brings justice might be good as well.

Thank you for your assistance.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 02 August 2007, 03:16:40
I doubt that "rofú" means "just" as in "justice".  That would be an adjective instead of an adverb, I think.  But if it does mean that, "rófu'scál" would probably work. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Benedict Bennett on 02 August 2007, 03:33:51
Thank you so much!
I am simply going off of what was stated in the Styrash dictionary. It states:


Quote
just      adverb      rofú      rofú

Perhaps I am mistaken but i truly appreciate your help.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 02 August 2007, 03:37:47
I know.  But the word "just" has two very different sets of meanings, one of which is an adjective and the other, an adverb.  The former is what you are looking for, but the one listed in the Styrash dictionary seems to be the latter. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Benedict Bennett on 02 August 2007, 06:18:40
I apologize.

It would be correct to say that what I would need would be incorrect.

I will remove the wording completely and just have in engraved in Tharian

sorry for the inconvenience. :sorry:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Eoranna Melor on 10 February 2008, 18:38:13
Suggestions for vocabulary: (Sorry if there is already a post for this...)

A list of suffixes and prefixes, preferably neuter in gender (does Styrash have a neuter form??)  Examples could include the Styrash equivalents for
(prefix) un-, anti-, im-, over-, under-, non-, pro-, con-. ante-, counter-, pro-, dis-, semi-, sub-, ultra-, etc, etc

(suffix) -ism, -ist, -holic, -less, -ology/-onomy, -phobia, -philia, etc, etc.

This would greatly increase the number of words that could be contained in the database, through combination and substitution.

I am not quite sure how this thread is being run or how the languages are being developed, but I would love to help out.  How would I go about constructing said suffixes/prefixes in the elvish language?? (ie, where can I get the knowledge necessary to do so correctly...)
 
Edit: Is this thread still active??  Seems to have been quite some time since anyone besides me posted...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Anwulf II on 15 February 2008, 14:32:15
Work on Styrásh comes in fits and starts, I've found. Also, conlanging takes a lot of work, and since Art has the whole of Santharia to deal with, he doesn't really have the time to devote to Styrásh.

If you're going to discuss word formation, it's more useful to talk about general categories rather than individual affixes, viz.

  • deverbal nouns
  • deadjectival nouns
  • denominal adjectives
  • deverbal adjectives
  • denominal verbs
  • deadjectival verbs

In addition, there can also be nouns from nouns (e.g. agent nouns), adjectives from adjectives (e.g. diminutives), and verbs from verbs (e.g. iteratives); and compounding (e.g. endocentric compounds; bahuvrihis etc.).


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: child of thorns on 22 March 2008, 15:57:27
Hey Artimidor Federkiel! I was wondering how i could help out?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 16 April 2008, 05:47:21
New double-entendre (sort of)...

godán (f.) "enemy, opponent, adversary"

...e.g. Styrát godán iuá nó. — "He is my enemy." (lit. "Is enemy my he.")

godán (v.tr.) "oppose, stand against"

...e.g. Godá ianthím delís phoilanhé ér-dél'aeyá Ximaxís. — "I oppose the method of magic conceived by the Ximaxian mages." (lit. "I-oppose method of-magic made by-mages of-Ximax.")


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 27 April 2008, 04:06:05
New noun which I was surprised to find we were missing...

methór (m.) "name (title?)"

...e.g. Styrát Quaélh'Orín methór iuá. — "My name is Quaélh'Orín." (lit. "It-is Quaélh'Orín name my.")

Which could have been derived from...

methorán (v.tr.) "to name (to bestow a title?)"

...e.g. Methorantá queím Épthaer'Avashín. — "I shall name you Épthaer'Avashín." (lit. "I-will-name you Épthaer'Avashín.")


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 04 May 2008, 01:10:06
I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but I've just found a website with loads of free Elvish fonts to download. You just need to have Winzip installed.

Just type "da font" into your browser.

As a trainee tattooist it'll be really handy for me, I get asked for "Lord of the rings writing" all the time, but could never find it before.

That's all. Carry on....


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Drúadan on 04 May 2008, 01:19:04

Our ingenius fellow dreamers have 2 styrash fonts ready made;

http://www.santharia.com/downloads/downloads_fonts.htm

Nice idea though Tharoc, I happen to have most of the LoTR fonts myself... Fun to use. ;)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Cár'ámn Glasajcín on 18 May 2008, 22:03:22
Hi

Not sure if this is where I should post this but here it is.

I would appreciate some help with the correct spelling of the ranger I am working on

The name I am trying to create would mean Sorrowful soul and as you can see I have butchered the language severely.

Mina has been extremely helpful and suggested Glasajcín Cár'ámn  but she has suggested I ask on the Dev board.

I also was trying to create a title for my ranger something like Warrior of Sorrow

Mini also suggested it might be hélvil'glasajías, or maybe glásajias'helvíl.

If you could help me on this I would appreciate it.

Thanks.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 19 May 2008, 02:42:33
"Sorrowful Soul," you say? Well, for this, we elves would say Cár'ámn Glasajcín.

And if you call yourself a Warrior of Sorrow, then amongst the elves you would be known as Raín Glasajís. It seems that kindly Mina confused helvíl, "wanderer," with raín, "warrior."  :)

Are these to your liking, friend?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Cár'ámn Glasajcín on 19 May 2008, 03:25:02
Very Much

Thank you Sir



Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 19 May 2008, 03:31:03
It said "wanderer" in his CD the last time I looked...

Edit: By the way, is the order always adjective after noun?  I don't remember if it was ever defined. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 19 May 2008, 05:03:24
I simply translated that which he provided.  :) So if the name is Wanderer of Sorrow, then yes, the elves would call him Helvíl Glasajís.

And I think that Arti once said in passing that Styrásh adjectives behaved like Romantic adjectives in that they come after the noun they modify, yes, so I base my translations accordingly. Might want to check with him for clarification, though.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 04 June 2008, 23:50:28
New noun as per Drúadan's request...

arethás (f.) "ceremony, rite, ritual"

...e.g. Phoilsinté arethasthím artají noís styaeyía.— "The elves held a ceremony in his honour." (lit. "Made-they ceremony for-honour of-he elves.")


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Miés´efér Lytherá on 06 December 2008, 06:20:11
 I would like to pluralize Avá, to make it translate into 'The Ones". How can I do this?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Wren on 10 December 2008, 01:28:55
In what context? What are you trying to say?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Miés´efér Lytherá on 10 December 2008, 03:40:13
 I am useing it as a title for a group of Gods in a religious entry. Énh’Avá = The One
I just need to pluralize Avá to make it say 'The Ones'


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 December 2008, 03:46:06
Would be Avaía, but such concepts of elven belief of course need to be discussed in more detail in the appropriate thread.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Miés´efér Lytherá on 10 December 2008, 04:03:55
Thank you Arti. I'll include it in my 'A Rough Sketch of Evathonrhim Religion' entry, and if it needs further discussion it can be continued there.

Thanks,
Mifer


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Miés´efér Lytherá on 18 March 2009, 03:24:39
I need the following for an entry I am working on: dáeul- quest --Would it be ok if I go ahead and use this?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 18 March 2009, 03:39:13
For 'Quest' I'd conjugate 'aia' and 'a' ('move' and 'through'):

Perhaps ' a-aiá ' ?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 March 2009, 03:44:37
Uhmmm... Where did you get that word "dáeul", Mies? Doesn't sound very elvish... You should try to use at least typical Styrásh endings - let me quote from the Styrásh Principles entry:

Quote
Typical endings of nouns
Masculine endings:
-aér, -aín, -ál, -ála, -ásh, -én, -ér, -és, -éth, -éy, -íc, -íl, -ím, -ín, -ír, -óc, -óg, -ól, -ón, -ór, ós

Feminine endings:
-á, -ách, -aí, -áj, -án, -aó, -ár, -ás, -áz, -áth, -éf, -él, -erá, -eró, -eú, -euá, -ía, -iár, -ly, -só, -thán, -uá, -ýr


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Miés´efér Lytherá on 18 March 2009, 04:10:01
Just scratch this, I think I'll just use the word for 'move'. Thank you.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: wesley on 25 March 2009, 15:13:02
I thout I would make a simple addition to the elvin tongue with
I love you ( mskulin and femunin )

MSK: me amouren tu
FEM: ma amorar tu

I hate you ( mskulin and femunin )

MSK: me roamas tu
FEM: ma  roamar tu



Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 March 2009, 16:03:19
Erm... This is not French, nor is it all that simple, wesley...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: wesley on 27 March 2009, 03:15:28
I don't Know FEM e'dan trois ( ee' donn twah )
I don't Know MSK a'dod trois ( ee' dud twah )


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 27 March 2009, 06:57:24
Wesley, did you base this on the known principles of Styrash, and the Styrash<->Tharian dictionaries?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Chimerius on 15 May 2009, 05:14:52
How about a word for 'to kiss'? I was thinking something literal like a touching of mouths...though saying it out loud, it doesn't exactly sound romantic... :undecided:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Oendi Iruge on 15 August 2009, 13:10:38
 I'm requesting the word energy please. I can't seem to find it in the Styrash dictionary.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 August 2009, 15:19:18
The term "cár'áll" means many things, among them aura, soul, but also energy, as it is the driving force of everything, it means life and activity. In the Ximaxian magic system it is mainly used for "universal magical aura/energy", though the elves wouldn't really make a difference here. So "cár'áll" is the word you seek I'd say.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Oendi Iruge on 15 August 2009, 17:01:41
Thank-you. I thought that was just the name of the magical energy. ;) Thanks.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: wesley on 15 December 2009, 07:26:03
Bell'o: Pretty, both body and Mind,
O'Leeb: Ugly, Gross, Terrible


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 15 December 2009, 07:30:20
Bell'o: Pretty, both body and Mind,
O'Leeb: Ugly, Gross, Terrible

There is a Styrash word for beautiful: avathcin
ó' is a Styrash unit that means "everlasting."

(We generally only use apostrophes to separate words in noun compounds)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 11 January 2010, 09:51:13
Míso'bél = the Mis'bél plant
Misó = Wax


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 25 January 2010, 00:44:43
valturáey (f.) "keeper"

teláey (f.) "singer"

léy (m.) "branch"

caothán (v.) "to give birth"

caothás (f.) "birth"

caothaín (m.) "birthday"

Rayne and I agree that the word for "blood" shouldn’t be a compound. The concept is basic enough that it’d have its own word. Perhaps dúr (or diár, dáth to conform with the noun endings already on the site)?

Art, can we add -áey to the list of feminine noun endings (distinct from the masculine -éy)?

Also, I’d like to move to expand the meaning of foár "on" to include "in, upon" as well. It’s common for one preposition to express general locative meaning (cf. Spanish en or Sindarin ned).


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 07 February 2010, 13:37:26
endrán : to worship (generally used for humans)

endrés : worship (m.) (generally used for human worship)

endraéy : worshipper (m.) (generally used for humans)

medrén : deaf (adj.)

medrás : deaf (f.)

médras’endraéy : Worshipper of the deaf (a derogatory term used by drow for wood elves in their belief and prayers to Avá)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: M´ruk Loshashzuck on 25 April 2010, 19:28:06
Hello.

I have recently purchased "The Lost Road and other writings" by JRR Tolkein, which includes an elven dictionary. Therefore I will be posting quite a lot in the near future.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: M´ruk Loshashzuck on 25 April 2010, 20:12:40
A

Ab, Abar- Refuse, deny
Ad- entrance, gate
Akla- ray of light
Aklar- radiance, brilliance
Aglar- glory
Alak- to rush
Alagos- storm of wind
Alat- great in size, large
Alya- rich
Am- mother
Am- up
Amban- steep slope, hill side
Amben- uphill
Amon- hill
Am run- uprising
Ana- to, towards
Anta- to present, to give
Ant- gift
Anwa- real
Anda- long
Anak- bite
Anca- jaw
Anar- sun
Ap- cooked food, meat
As- dust
Ar- outside, beside
Ata- father
At- again, back
Athrad- ford, crossing
Atwa- double
Awa- away, forth, out
Ay- pool, lake
Ayar- inland sea
Ayak- sharp, pointed
Aikale- peak


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 April 2010, 20:17:28
Ermm... Please notice that Styrásh is not Tolkien's elvish, it's our very own language. There are rules for Styrásh how endings have to look like, we construct words out of existing ones etc. And we have a bunch of words you just posted as well. So from what I see you aren't aware of any of that, M'ruk.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: M´ruk Loshashzuck on 25 April 2010, 21:58:55
Oh, I thought santharia was based on tolkein. And that there were synonyms in most languages. Never mind.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 17 January 2011, 20:22:30
From Eight Winds Bay entry (gathering together the words discussed from the following posts: Waters of Division (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14593.html), Elvish Names for Masterwork Entry (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14260.0.html) and Eight Winds Bay (Masterwork) (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14033.0.html). I hope I've got these right. :) I've copied and pasted the elvish words from the other threads to here, and then tried to explain each one.

From the thread called Waters of Division:
sysán - "to divide"

syéth (m.) - "division"

syéth'maría - "Waters of Division"

puér (m.) - "Salt"

lón - wood/forest (Art said that this word is currently "woods", but that he'd like to change it to wood/forest)

lonuá" (f.) - "wood" as in "a piece of wood"

echalonuá (f.) - "reed" (lit. wood-grass)

puér'echalonuá (f.) - "salt reeds" (lit. salt wood-grass)

From the thread called Elvish Names for Masterwork:
Unn’chrónn - "Big Island"

Gálnos’chrónn - "Rock Island"

Másyr’chrónn - 'Fish Island"

Marásh - "hurricane (lit. storm at sea causing havoc over land)"

Tuu'marásh - "Permanent storm at sea (lit. Water Turn)"

From my Masterwork Entry thread:
már'vévan - "water bird"


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 21 September 2011, 11:29:16
és (prep.) "into"
uím (m.) "us"
dorán (v.) “to beat (as in a drum)”
cásh (m.) “wave”
kelshár (f.) “cliff”
ýn (p.) “as”
welán (v.) “to shift”
bavmár (f.) “tide”
vaéy (m.) “cycle”
peldrán (v.) “to move (trans.)”
avaéf (f.) “oneness; quality or condition of being one”
katréy (m.) “storm”
katrán (f.) “to storm”
nareuá (f.) “becoming”
dól (m.) “drop”
quóc (m.) “distinct/discreet”
sharél (f.) “moment”
dré (adv.) “then”
zilshán (v.) “to merge”
keréth (adj.) “vast”


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 21 September 2011, 18:14:48
Hm, I'm not entirely sure we need object pronouns, since we could probably just inflect the pronouns for accusative case, eg. iuthim "me; iuithian "us".  Then again, it does make sense for such commonly used words to eventually be eroded into unanalyzable forms.  

Perhaps -ef (from avaef) and -eua (from nareua) can become more general suffixes?  

ava-ef = quality/condition of being one
Therefore maybe X-ef = quality/condition of being X, where X is any adjective?  
eg. carain "proud" -> carainef "pride"?

Similarly, since you seem to have gotten nareua by applying a -eua ending to naran "become", maybe -eua could be a general way to convert verbs into gerunds?  So then we could say something like:

tae-si-ti               sys  waeshhaj-thian     sa               them-eua  sah            dar-ias
cover-PAST-3SG  two year-ACC.Fem.PL  the.Fem.SG  fortify-eua the.Fem.PL town-GEN.Fem.PL
"The fortifying of the towns took two years"


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 22 September 2011, 03:04:41
The objective pronoun was actually something developed by Falethas here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14237.0.html). I think when developing these forms it's good to keep in mind that, at its heart, language is meant to be used. Having complicated, long, or difficult-to-pronounce words which are used rather frequently may not be practical.

I like the idea of having morpheme suffixes, though I worry that we may be working against 13 years of relatively haphazard vocabulary creation. This is not to say that these ideas can't be integrated, but it's important to keep in mind that there are words, like those below, that may either need to be changed or else listed as exceptions.

Let me know your thoughts, or if you have any solutions!

géf = fork
inéf = permanence (may work; ín=permanent)
léf = weak/feeble
theméf = fortification
ythréf = poison

inerá = rigidity
lytherá = poem
merá = vanity
raugierá = purity
shenerá = novelty
úlintherá = oak


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 22 September 2011, 03:49:20
Well, all languages have irregularities; nothing wrong with having some exceptions.  There's even some pattern to the words you listed, which suggests an older way of doing the same thing that hasn't entirely disappeared yet.  It reminds me a little of English plurals, actually. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 28 September 2011, 04:33:20
Quick question: I was told long ago that a circumflex (eg. in "ê") represented a long vowel.  Is this still true?  If so, how is the long version of "è" written? 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 28 September 2011, 04:41:37
Uhm... Don't know where the long vowel thing was decided, but that might be so. All I know is that, quoted from the Principles page:

Quote
The letter è is pronounced as ö (as in german "öffnen") or as oe (as in French "oeuvre").

But there's no long version for any of these letters in German and in French, so I'd say we don't have that in Styrásh either. In German for example the length probably depends on the following letters, e.g. in "öffnen" is pronounced short, because there's a double "f" following.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 28 September 2011, 04:57:00
I think you told me that during that one voice chat we had several years back, but I don't really remember anymore.  If there isn't a length distinction though, what do circumflexes represent? 

In any case, they do seem very rare.  Looking at the dictionary, the only one I could find was in "fênán".  Besides that, the only one I can think of is in "Fá'áv'cál'âr". 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 28 September 2011, 05:06:17
Yes, that's also all I found. And that's about it what they represent: a long vowel obviously.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 01 November 2011, 15:57:44
rián (verb) "to want"
Found it in this entry (http://www.santharia.com/places/ria.htm), which states that riá iú means "I want".  

Edit: Found a few more. 

salóh (noun) "bottom", from here (http://www.santharia.com/places/saloh.htm). 

tháeh (adjective) "yellow", from here (http://www.santharia.com/places/thaehelvil_river.htm). 

yúlir (noun) "twin", from here (http://www.santharia.com/places/zeiphyrian_forests.htm).  Or maybe jhúlir if the "y" is meant to be the English "y" sound.  The stress is irregular too; I'm not sure if it should be corrected. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 16 December 2011, 14:20:24
A non proper mixing of Orc and styrash, hot (xar) and water (mar), meaning hotwater (hot springs) could be Xarmarra?

EDIT: Probably not the right thread for this.  And this was a question more than a suggestion.  I need a place name for Iol.  Something for Hot Springs or Warm Waters or something similar that mixes orc and elvish words.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 19 December 2011, 23:11:57
Well, I see nothing wrong with the name you came up with for it, although you didn't explain the final "-ra".  I'm a little curious about why it needs to be a combination of Orcish and Elvish words though.  What's the story behind that?   :huh:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 20 December 2011, 10:24:08
Antislar language is a mixture of elvish, orcish, and Ice Tribe.

The final ra just sounded better.

Thanks Mina. :)


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 24 December 2011, 12:51:49
I can't believe a proposition of this kind isn't in the dictionary; please let me know if I've completely missed this somewhere, or if this somehow violates a linguistic principle...

ú = preposition = in/within


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 24 December 2011, 14:00:38
That's really strange.  Maybe something was accidentally deleted when the dictionary was switched over to the new tables?  I had a preposition és for "into" in one of my examples, and I know I didn't invent it for the entry, but there seems to be no such word in the dictionary. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 December 2011, 16:02:46
Hmmm... Doesn't show up in the current database...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 10 May 2012, 11:43:36
Can we change the word for blood (phár'már) into something a little simpler? It's only used in four place on the entirety of the site--and structure here doesn't make much sense--nor does the meaning ("traveling water"?). Can we change it to something more basic, like "rùl"?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 11 May 2012, 01:14:23
Sounds like a good idea to me.  My guess is that phar'mar and other words that seem similarly out of place are either kennings or have something to do with folk etymology.  In any case, even if we keep the word, synonyms are not uncommon in real languages, so there shouldn't be any problem with adding some to Styrash. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 May 2012, 03:35:52
Well, Styrásh words are usually carefully constructed. I tend to not just create any new word which sounds great, but to deduce them from existing ones and give them a context and new meaning based on what we already have. Like in this case. With "travellng water" the water that is traveling through the body is referred to, part of the circle of life, so you have the what and the how both in one composed word and it wasn't just created out of thin air, you know...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 11 May 2012, 12:25:38
When I consider a new word, I like to consider the context--what the word being new (created) or constructed says about elves and elven culture.

"Traveling water" for blood doesn't seem particularly elvish to me--not just because blood has the smell and heaviness of earth, the warmth and animating qualities of fire, and the swiftness of wind. Rather, "blood" is the liquid version of life, or car'all--to simply call it "traveling water", to me, doesn't accurately reflect its essential nature.

Apart from this, constructing words rather than creating them implies they are more distant from the elven culture or psyche. The basic words of elvish reflect the basic concepts within elven cosmology and psychology (we would not dream of constructing a word for "fire" or "water" or "wind"!).

And yet we have these peculiar constructions in the Styrash language, like star ("miés'efér" or "jewel/gem fire"). What is closer to the elven culture: jewels/gems or stars? Would it be more appropriate to have a created word for "jewel" or "gem" (a rather rare object mined from the earth (keeping in mind elves rarely mine)) or to have a created word for "star" (a pin prick of light that elves see nightly through the canopies of their forest home)? If anything, jewels or gems should be called "earth stars"!

I know that "miés'efér" is likely used a lot of places, so I don't push, but I don't like this constructed word--or what it implies about elves. If I could, I would go back and try to tweak the vocabulary so that it all rang true to elven culture, as I believe a language should, but I think it's too difficult to do that at this juncture.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 May 2012, 15:48:56
Well, you can always say: This or that word construction doesn't look that great to me, but the principle of constructing words is at the heart of the Styrásh tongue - even at the examples "miés'efér" and "phár'már" you can see that both are references and reductions to elements with attributes added. Now they might not be perfect ("cár'már", "life-water" for blood would be better perhaps) and you could also approach such a construction from another side with an emphasis on another element, but I wouldn't overdo it and quench it all in an extremely strict system. Even a language like Styrásh has developed in various directions, but constructing words from basic roots is one of its key elements as it reflects on observing nature and trying to capture that observation in a word. Pretty similar to names native Americans construct based on comparisons with nature ("Sitting Bull" etc.), same principle here, but used for the entire language.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 12 May 2012, 01:33:25
To be clear: my issue is not that there are constructed words. It's about what words are roots and which are constructed. Words for gems are constructed: I have no issues with this. I think the words for "caravan", "corset", and even "store" would probably be constructed in Styrash, as they are 1) not related to nature and 2) not frequently found in elves culture/society.

Constructed words should be used to relate things that are part of elven culture and nature to things that are not, not to relate things that are more distant from elven culture/nature (gems) to things that are closer (star). Does this make sense? We need root words in order to construct the others, and we should be cognitive of what our decisions imply about elven society. I think "blood" is a basic concept, and should be a root. Will you change it?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 12 May 2012, 01:50:50
Gems are more distant to elves than stars? Erm... Personally I think you push that pretty far, and try to apply a very strict systematical approach, which makes it very tough to create words for me. Because quite frankly I still have no clear idea what should be allowed and what not and for what exact reason, how you define a basic root and why you reject other words. Plus, the whole Styrásh vocabulary we currently have was created without having this in mind. So I'm not sure what all this trouble is suddenly about.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 12 May 2012, 02:45:58
It's about basic concepts rather than roots.  I'm not sure how to explain it, but from what I understand, there are certain concepts that are so basic that pretty much all languages can be expected to have their own roots for them, instead of having to use compound words or borrow from another language.  Well, borrowing of words for basic concepts does happen, I think, but very rarely.  If I'm not mistaken, body parts, including blood, are examples of such concepts, along with basic environmental objects/phenomena like the sky or the sun, and basic activities like eating. 

I did suggest that phar'mar could be retained as some sort of kenning.  It might be interesting if Styrash texts make frequent use of kennings.  And it's a convenient excuse for having all sorts of compounds in the dictionary. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 12 May 2012, 04:40:08
I agree, Mina. Body parts, celestial phenomena, and I'm even fine with "gems" being a root word! I think we are in accord.

The word for "blood" hasn't been used many places; I would assume this would be a pretty easy fix. I would love it if we could replace the word for 'star', though I know that might involve a little more work. I cringe a little when I see it and need to use it for something. I have written an albeit small collection of Styrash poetry and have used the word for star a few times. I don't think I've ever used the word for "gem." It's just not as common as "star" is. It seems more likely for it to be a root word, as well.

Styrash, as a language, will be poetical regardless of how many constructed words you have. It's the nature of the language and the associations we commonly have with elves, the way the vocabulary has been built. If we can change a couple words to better reflect elven nature and values, why wouldn't we?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 May 2012, 04:06:45
Quote
There are certain concepts that are so basic that pretty much all languages can be expected to have their own roots for them.

Hmmm... Well, but where do we draw the line? What concepts are so basic? Doesn't it all depend on the race or tribe what's basic and what's derived? An elf might see himself/herself only as part of the universe, and while water is pretty basic, blood might be seen just a form of water, thus it could be a derived word. Same with a star, which currently is simply judged by appearance only, once again after an element.

So yeah, never wanted to make a science out of it and the discussion to me seems very academical as I have trouble imagining where to draw the line and what rules you want to have applied. I always trusted my gut feeling with constructing new words and wanted to make references whenever I could, so that the words are all connected. This was my primary goal. But I don't know anymore what I should do with new words if such questions suddenly arise, even with words that are regularly used. And what should do with all the 734 words we currently have in the database? I'm sure you'd find lots that would need adjustment for the one or the other reason.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 15 May 2012, 05:07:13
Quote
Hmmm... Well, but where do we draw the line? What concepts are so basic? Doesn't it all depend on the race or tribe what's basic and what's derived? An elf might see himself/herself only as part of the universe, and while water is pretty basic, blood might be seen just a form of water, thus it could be a derived word. Same with a star, which currently is simply judged by appearance only, once again after an element.
That could be the case, although in real life, the things I mentioned seem relatively consistent across different cultures. 

Based on your description, I get the impression that you essentially want Styrash to be a sort of oligosynthetic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligosynthetic_language), which as the linked page mentions, is not known to exist in real life.  Of course, elves are not just a different culture, but a different species altogether, so it is not impossible that their language might contain features that are don't or cannot exist in human languages. 

If you really want elves to be that different from humans inherently, I'm alright with that.  But you should be aware that people might find it rather strange, or even unrealistic, because that's just not the sort of thing real human languages would do. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: ishmaelion on 16 May 2012, 01:56:26
If I recall my class on oligosynthetic language correctly (I minored in general linguistics during my Celtic studies) the reason for its non-existence is the fact that the human brain is not able to naturally absorb this many different combinations. It cannot, therefore, be a natural human language. I must say that I kind of like the elves to have a language which would have been impossible for humans to develop. The developpement of an oligosynthetic language as a natural language implies that the culture consciously chooses to limit its number of morphemes in order to retain the purity or essence of the language. Again, I kinda like the idea that Styrash has such an element to it. But then again, I'm a crazy linguist :P :thumbup:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 16 May 2012, 02:39:34
You had a class on oligosynthetic languages?  I wish we had something like that here.  It sounds interesting. 

One other problem with oligosynthetic languages, I think, is that the normal processes of language change would probably turn many derived words into unanalysable roots given sufficient time.  So, after some time, it's going to stop being an oligosynthetic language.   

Like I said though, a different species won't necessarily follow the same rules as humans, so I can accept if Styrash were to violate some of the rules of human languages.  I just wanted to make sure that it was intentional. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 May 2012, 03:13:01
Well, as I said I'm no linguist, and I don't know how Native Americans actually talk and construct their words, but I find both your input interesting, Mina and Ish! The fact that the Wikipedia article associates Native Americans with this type of language (even if these are only considered as "claims") at least shows that my intention with the Styrásh tongue comes from the same direction - I think this interlinked concept is rather different to the regular human approach and fits to a unique racial culture rather well. It's not that I had this all planned out, but it sort of developed when I constructed words and it sounds not entirely illogical to me, or not entirely doubleplusungood as oligosynthetic speakers from 1984 would say...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: ishmaelion on 16 May 2012, 03:22:06
Mina, yeah, I really loved studying linguistics besides my Celtic, I learned over ten dead languages in the past 6 years thanks to the University  :grin:

What you say rings true, Mina; for example the Old Irish verbal system is based on something called the complex verb. This has some ressemblances to oligosynthetic languages as the verb is based on a string of multiple small morphemes. However, the verbal forms that we find in our manuscripts only show small hints of this system, which has almost dissapeared in two centuries. For example, the Proto-Celtic verbal form * to-eti-mo-ber-et-is (all the small particles are semantic carriers) turned into tabairt in only a couple of centuries.

Styrash, however, might be reconcilable with a extremely conservative oligosynthetic language. If we would stipulate that the elves consciously keep their number of morphemes to a select few and that these morphemes are 'sacred' (or something like that), it could also be equally probable that because of this conscious language awareness, the language has remained the same over time on purpose.

Again, I'm just a crazy linguist and I can already see Art rolling his eyes at our semi-linguistic ramblings, but I think this oligosynthetic language can work for Styrash. :thumbup:


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 16 May 2012, 03:50:15
Ten languages!  Which ones?  I'm too lazy to learn new languages.   :buck:

I was mostly thinking about Semitic triconsonantal roots.  I read somewhere that they are thought to have started out as words derived from ordinary syllabic roots, but later certain vowels were dropped which lead to consonants becoming dissociated from vowels, and caused the consonant sequences of those derived words to become regarded as roots themselves.  What you cited sounds like an even better example though.  Would you happen to have a translation for it?  

As for the language being resistant to change, the generally long lifespans of elves might help with that.  I think there would probably still be some changes here and there though, even if the elves were consciously manipulating their language, just not that quickly.  

In any case, I'm not an expert on elves, so I don't really want to speculate too much on what can or cannot work for Styrash specifically.  That's for Rayne and Artimidor to decide.  I'm just here to provide some background information and talk about linguistics in general.    :D


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: ishmaelion on 16 May 2012, 04:13:06
*to-eti-mo-ber-et-is 'they carry me' is composed of:

to : proclitic, adding a sense of direction to the verbal root
eti : conjunction marker, always in Wackernagel position, indicates that the verb is part of a new semantic sequence (i.e. a new sentence)
mo : first person infix pronoun
ber : the present tense verbal root!  :cool: meaning "carry"
et : third person plural ending
is : relative marker, indicating that the agens of the verb has been mentioned before

In two centuries the following occured:
to-eti-mo-ber-et-is > to-ti-m-ber-t-is > to-s-m-ber-t > tabairt
 but for example the non sentence initial form of this verb:
to-mo-ber-et-eti > to-m-ber-t-et > to-ver-s-et > do-veirt

I won't go into the reasons for every change, but as you can see the word changed quite a bit.  :evil:

I learned Old Irish, Middle Welsh, Middle Breton, Middle Cornish, Hittite, Sanscrit, Hebrew, Old-Saxon, Old French, Middle Dutch, Gothic, Old English, Old Norse and improved my Classical Greek and Latin. What can I say, I like dead languages... :D

P.s. sorry if this post was a bit off topic...


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 16 May 2012, 04:29:51
Thanks for the translation!   :grin:

And that's...a lot of languages.   :shocked:

Edit: You know, looking at it more closely, it seems almost polysynthetic.  Certainly didn't expect that from an Indo-european language.  The Wikipedia entry on Old Irish is unfortunately lacking in detail about its grammar.   :(


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 18 May 2012, 01:03:22
Did the issues here regarding compound words for basic concepts get resolved?  :undecided: I don't see an resolution in the discussion..


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 18 May 2012, 01:39:02
Well, Ishmaelion and I seem to agree that it's not something a human language would realistically do, but might be possible for something spoken by a nonhuman species.  Ishmaelion suggested one way to make it work for Styrash: having the language be very resistant to change due to the elves consciously keeping it mostly the same.  This obviously doesn't work for humans; despite the all the effort prescriptivists put into trying to halt language change, languages just keep changing.  But elves are not humans, so maybe it could work for them. 

As I said though, I don't think I'm really qualified to comment on whether elves should be that different from humans.  You know a lot more about them than I do. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 18 May 2012, 03:13:47
That sounds good: very useful to know. But that wasn't quite the issue we were discussing: recall that we were trying to decide which words should or should not be created--specifically, if words like "blood" and "stars" should be compound words or should have their own word. Naturally, these are probably rather ancient words, fundamental to life and elven nature. I believe that they should probably have their own word, and not be constructed from other words.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 May 2012, 03:36:41
I've given my reasons why I think that words like blood or star can very well be composed words, however, in case this causes you sleepless nights, Rayne, feel free to change it. The question however remains, when one should be allowed to compose what words and when not and what to do with lots of other already constructed words.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Mina on 18 May 2012, 03:44:14
Would it be acceptable for you guys if there were both roots and compound words for such concepts?  As I mentioned near the beginning of this discussion, real languages do contain synonyms. 


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 18 May 2012, 03:52:01
Quote
I've given my reasons why I think that words like blood or star can very well be composed words
Were there any reasons you gave that I did not address? I thought I made a pretty good argument, but if you think I responded incompletely or incomprehensibly,  please let me know. I feel my argument is very strong, and don't want my ineloquence to get in the way of conveying it.  :)


Quote
The question however remains, when one should be allowed to compose what words and when not and what to do with lots of other already constructed words.
Well, I already made a proposal in that regard:

Quote
I think the words for "caravan", "corset", and even "store" would probably be constructed in Styrash, as they are 1) not related to nature and 2) not frequently found in elves culture/society.

Constructed words should be used to relate things that are part of elven culture and nature to things that are not, not to relate things that are more distant from elven culture/nature (gems) to things that are closer (star).


Quote
Would it be acceptable for you guys if there were both roots and compound words for such concepts?  As I mentioned near the beginning of this discussion, real languages do contain synonyms. 
I don't mind synonyms; I think there may already be a few in the dictionary.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 May 2012, 04:39:23
Ah, well. Synonyms are fine with me, there could be a version of words that judges the appearance or the function in combined form (in case of the stars and blood) and there could be another word. That's ok with me, but complicates things unnecessarily if you ask me.

I see more merit in a unique approach like an oligosynthetic language than a copy of a human one in general - after all we're trying to make the elves a completely unique culture, so why just copy what is common for in human languages?


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Rayne (Alýr) on 18 May 2012, 04:55:43
Quote
To be clear: my issue is not that there are constructed words. It's about what words are roots and which are constructed.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Bard Judith on 18 May 2012, 08:56:02
Not really a language expert here (Dwarven is pretty much based on my main mother tongue with direct transliteration), and not taking any sides.... but...

I think Rayne's general and light-handed principle of considering elven philosophy and connection with nature when deciding whether a word is root or construct is a fairly effective tool to use.   We need to 'back-story' the language while remembering that philology recapitulates philosophy.     And trying to think from a non-human perspective is also a useful principle to keep in mind.

  Sooo.....just for example, when I was designing specific words for ThergerimTaal, I didn't just give them North, South, East, and West....two-dimensional directions....but actual three-dimensional orientations that allow them to move in pitch blackness beneath the surface of the earth.  Dwarves have a specific word for 'upwards 90 degrees, outwards 45 degrees, and 45 degrees to the right' (sort of the position your arm would be in after snapping off a salute, or pointing out Venus in the morning sky.... :D )

Elves would probably have 'root' words for anything that exists naturally, and more of them than we would (Korean has one word - hobak -  for 'gourd vegetables', which we distinguish with 'pumpkin', 'squash', 'acorn squash', 'zucchini', and 'eggplant', among others...)   while they would certainly need to construct more 'civilized' or 'alien' concepts.   Depending upon when an idea/thing entered their culture, those new words might morph to roots over the course of time.   Many of our Greek and Latin morphemes are firmly embedded in English, and we frequently use them as constructive elements.

Just my two sans there, and hopefully helpful to the discussion.

Hugs all round, and a plate of doch nut cookies while you are chatting,
Judith


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 19 May 2012, 01:56:43
Ok, suggestion: Let's have some root words then and use the existing composed ones where they are out of place, say, as poetical synonyms, which can refer to the same thing in the proper context. Like a human poet would refer to a star maybe as "glittering skylight", so an elf might also have a poetic version like "miés'efér". Such constructed words can exist aside from the regular roots and are known to follow the dominating oligosynthetic tendencies Styrásh is known for. Yet in cases when no synonyms, but regular words are composed, the root words serve as the basis.


Title: Re: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!
Post by: Eldor Delrossa on 08 February 2013, 23:42:22
Just a couple of words that I created for developing purposes:

linénlón (m.) - grove (lit. "little forest")

náfrefér (m.) - ember (lit. "fading fire") 

Náfrér'linlón (m.) - The Grove of Embers (lit. "Ember Grove")


Note: I'm not sure if proper nouns get defined as masculine or feminine, but Náfrér'linlón would be masculine if they do.