Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Places and Map Design => Topic started by: Feanor the Grey on 31 July 2002, 15:04:00



Title: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 31 July 2002, 15:04:00
Ok, this is where I will post my things on Chrandra north of Marcogg in Santharia.

First I need to know what is the size of the population you were expecting, and second, how to explain the illogical history of the Avennorian?

Next post will show you what I mean when I say illogical. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 31 July 2002, 15:08:00
this is the history of the Avennorians, my comments are in ( ) so that you can see them a bit better, dunno how to change polices in forums.


History of the people of Marcogg and the Avennorians

The Age of Silence (Unknown – 3400 B.S.)

Ca. 11350 B.S.

The Glandorian Expeditions

Glandor of the Glandorians, the naval commander and now leader of the Glandorians and founder of the Port of Marglith (North Sarvonia) authorizes two ships to explore the lands and seas south of them. One ship was called the Fijor Skull, and was captained by Droki Lygnolf. The other ship was named Svarring Joling and was captained by Troi Ciosa. They launched in the late spring of the year 11349 their voyages were supposed to last no more than a year. After prayers and sacrificing two children to appease Baveras they set sail. The Fijor Skull returned approximately five months later. They had found some land south of them, but no gold or anything else of value. The Svarring Joling never returned and was considered lost at sea.

11348 B.S.

The Founding of Ciosa

In the late winter of the year 11348 the Svarring Joling runs aground on a hidden reef near a peninsula. After they had set sail from Glandor they had a good journey for a while then a huge storm came and blew them off course and way out to sea. Finally after a year      

(This I am very doubtful, no ship can sail one year without re-supplying on land. Even the great full rigged ships of the renaissance on our world can’t do that. Lack of drinkable water as well as scorbu would decimate the crew and they would have mutinied a long time ago. I think that two months are the best a ship can do without re-supplying, especially a ship like that, I think this ship is a mono-mast or a bi-mast? Restricted rationing system would be necessary to go beyond one month of sailing for these small ships. I really think you should change this to a more pertinent and realistic time period. And there is no way a small crew of people could form an entire kingdom, maybe a village, but no kingdom. Ok, maybe a fleet of full rigged ships like 25 of them could do that since they carry lots of soldiers and marines, but a mono-mast or bi-mast? I don’t think so.)

If sailing the crew saw land and headed for it. They ran aground on a hidden reef. Scuttling the damaged and sinking ship for supplies the group of explorers, men, women and children born at sea founded and built a small settlement for themselves. They named it Ciosa, after their captain and leader of their expedition. The top of the masts of the Svarring Joling can still be seen at low tide.

11300 B.S.

Thorgeir’s naming the tribe

Troi Ciosa dies in late summer at age 73 and his son Thorgeir is given leadership of the people. He names them the Avennorians, which means, “Baveras' children” in their language.

10350 B.S.

Lumber wars with the Tethinrhim

Liemolf Marcogg and others build a settlement on the banks of the Mashdai River they name Marcogg. He starts a battle with the elven tribe of the Tethinrhim over lumber and the Auturian Woods. He is badly overmatched by the elves and loses many men.

10330 B.S.

Peace Treaty between the Avennorians and the Sophronians

Under the leadership of Thorgeir of the Avennorians and Etain of the Sophronians these two kingdoms sign a trade treaty.

Between 10000-9800 B.S. (Approx.)

Further Expansion and discovery of Aeruillin

The Avennorians explore, settle and found two more settlements; Klinsor, near the southern border of the Tolonian Heath, and Chrondra northwest of Marcogg near the Mithril Mountains, becoming a river settlement off of one of the tributaries of the Mashdai River. The Avennorians also discover a new continent (Aeruillin) with one of their exploration ships they send far to the south. Dark skinned people from these lands are captured and sold them to the wealthy as slaves.

Between 9500-9023 B.S. (Approx.)

The War of the Chosen

The Avennorians like all the other ancient tribes of Sarvonia were almost completely decimated by the war.

Between 9023-9000 B.S. (Approx.)

The Year of Cleansing

The Avennorian kingdom is cleansed by the elven Xeuá magic.

(This I have a difficulty to believe, and I don’t think it’s possible. The elves wouldn’t heal some people they were at war with for a long time. Why would they do that? Unless the Avennorians were part of the force that battled with the elves.)

The Age of Myths (1655-822 B.S.)

3400-1655 B.S.

No records have been found during this time. It is speculated that the remnants of the Avennorians, though devastated by disease, famine, and other calamities of the war and even with the help of Xeuá magic took this time to rebuild their civilization.


1655 B.S.

The Rebuilding of Marcogg

Under the leadership of Barek Swanhild the Avennorians begin to rebuild Marcogg over the ruins of the old capitol Marcogg.

1653 B.S.

The Great Shipbuilding

Two years later the capitol Marcogg is rebuilt. Barek Swanhild is crowned King. He initiates the largest shipbuilding project the Avennorians ever had. His desire is to explore the seas and hopefully to find lands with gold and treasure and his own ancestors’ homeland from where they were captured and sold as slaves to the then old Avennorian kingdom.

1652 B.S.

The Discovery of Darknar (Dorenthakar)

The first exploring ship sets sail; she was named the Sorli. She had a compliment of twenty crewmembers besides the captain who was called Okar Snivild. They set sail in early spring. They return six month later with news of an island southwest of them in the Adanian Sea. An expedition is planned to explore the interior.

1651 B.S.

Barek’s Disappearance

The Sorli, with the same captain sets sail for the island the Avennorians called Darknar, for Barek thought they had found the lands of his ancestors. The ship never returned. This island we now know as the “Island of Doranthakar.”

1649-1648 B.S.

Mir’dark

In Northern Sarvonia is called the Vardýnnian Atonement. The Avennorians call it Mir'Dark, which in their language meants“Endless Night”. Many Avennorians die that year including Barek Swanhild.

1645 B.S.

Rekj starts further exploration

The youngest son of Barek Swanhild, Rekj is crowned king. He restarts the shipbuilding and the exploring of the seas that his father had started several years before the year of the “Mir'Dark” had killed his father.

1642 B.S.

Rediscovery of Aeruillin

A new ship is developed it is called a Barek, named after Rekj's father. It is larger, sturdier and carries a compliment of thirty crew members as well as the captain and nine officers. It has two masts instead of one. She is Christened "Starmir" and is captained by the daughter of Okar Snivild, Thea Snivild. She sets sail in late summer and returns in early summer of the next year. The crew brings back stories of a land that is almost all deserts (Aeruillin) and Okar also brings back people who she believes may be the people of the King. She tells the King she had to buy them from a place called Shan’Thai. Rekj anger is kindled, thinking that his people are still being sold as slaves. After he releases the slaves he begins to prepare plans to attack Shan’Thai and free his people. This began the Seven Hundred Year War.

Between 1640-806 B.S. (Approx.)

The Seven hundred years war

Rekj Swanhild starts and his successors continue the war to free his people from slavery. He and his successors send armadas of ships to attack Shan’Thai and its people to overthrow them and free the slaves. Their losses were uncountable. The Shan’Thai people and its city were just too strong and the time it took to rebuild ships, train armies, make weapons took its toll on the wealth, population and commerce of the Avennorians.

(I really doubt that a little bunch of people from one ship that went through decimation in the Chosen war would be able to wage war for hundreds of years, this is mostly unrealistic and absurd as well as illogical. They do not have the resources even if they have the money, to wage war for so long and so far away from their lands. It is very doubtful that they would have survived at all the war since the other side is much more powerful and would have come to their own lands, crushing any Avennorians there. I think you should revise this and make it a seven years war instead even though it’s unrealistic too. No kingdom the size of the Avennorians’ Kingdom could wage war more than a year. They have no resources, and they would need to cut down the entire forests in their lands to produce ships for 700 years of war and even then. No talking about the manpower, how can so few people be able to wage wars across the sea? They have a hard time winning battles against a few elves! How in hell are they suppose to survive a war with a whole nation that has a thousand times more people and resources than they do? They just don’t have the man power either.)

Between 806-803 B.S. (Approx.)

The Avennorian Civil war

In the winter of 806 b.S. the last successor of Rekj Swanhild, Eyfi Swanhild dies. His families’ wealth was depleted. He lost the throne to Anir Snivild, whose family, starting with Okar Snivild and his daughter Thea gathered tremendous wealth in trade. Though Okar and Thea hated slavery and fought against it. After their deaths their sons and daughters seeing a way to make tremendous wealth, dealt in the illegal trade of slaves as well as the legitimate commerce of whale hunting.

The Snivilds are famous for their expeditions and countless whale hunting and selling and trading of whalebone, oil and Spermaceti. He signs a treaty with the leaders of Shan’Thai and legitimizes the slave trade. However anyone wanting to do such business had to give a kickback to him. The price for doing so was 20% of the sale of the slave.

This starts a civil war between those who deem slavery as wrong and evil, the ones who were the progeny of slaves and those who believe in their rights and those who just want to profit from it. The war ends with an uneasy truce signed by Anir who decreeds sthat any slave who wants to be free is free and that those who want to remain with those who bought them must have their left ear pierced with a symbol of the family of which they belonged too. This satisfied both warring parties. Slave trading still continues but mostly the slaves are sold by their own families, either because of a debt owed or because the family needs money. Most of these slaves are girls.

Between 804-800 B.S. (Approx.)

The attack on the Tethinrhim Ria

Anir marshals troops against the elves in the Auturian Woods. Though he could care less about the cause of the war, he sees an opportunity for a land grab and to avenge the Avennorians against the Tethinrhim elves and attacks the Ria, the elven sovereign's housing. The elves already besieged and wearied from the battles against the other humans see their beloved woods being burned. When Anir and his troops attack their capitol and the Ria, the elves fight back with vengeance and push back Anir and his troops out of the woods and even burn down some of the outer settlements of the Avennorians. This defeat precipitates more attacks by Anir and each time they lose to the more experienced war fared elves. Finally in the late fall, early winter of 800 b.S. Anir gives up and just watches as the war continues. He and his people would sit out this war and gather up what is left, figuring that would be the best. Let the others do the fighting for him and he would come in and take what is left over. To Anir this seems liked the perfect plan.

Between 800-749 B.S. (approx.)

The Demise of the Avennorians

As the Avennorians sit out the First Sarvonian War ready like vultures to pick up the pieces, they do not take into account that the human tribe of the Erpheronians would hold them accountable for their actions and attack the Avennorians. Anir surrenders in the late summer of 749 b.s. He and his family are immediately beheaded. The Erpheronian king, Korpicor, and his armies use Marcogg as their staging base for the war against the elves. After the war has ended in 729 b.s. the King gave Marcogg and the lands back to the Avennorians but they had to pay tribute to the Erpheronian empire and were considered a satellite country of the Erpheronian kingdom.

(I would add after this: Seeing that the Avennorians were different physically from the Erpheronians and other people in Santharia. So the Erpheronians took them as freaks of nature and some even thought them to be demon’s child. As the Erpheronians conquered Avennoria, they massacred many Avennorian, especially the more ugly ones and the ones who had more predimoninant Avennorian features. After the war, the true Avennorians were only found in backward villages on the coast and isolated hamlets inland, other than that, the people living there were either ancient slaves of the Shan’Thai, they didn’t have the true Avennorian special features, and Erpheronians and their allies. Today, the Avennorians are becoming extinct and only a few isolated communities of these weird looking people are found along the coast of the province of the Kingdom of Santharia.)

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 31 July 2002, 15:40:00
"This I am very doubtful, no ship can sail one year without re-supplying on land. Even the great full rigged ships of the renaissance on our world can’t do that. Lack of drinkable water as well as scorbu would decimate the crew and they would have mutinied a long time ago. I think that two months are the best a ship can do without re-supplying, especially a ship like that, I think this ship is a mono-mast or a bi-mast? Restricted rationing system would be necessary to go beyond one month of sailing for these small ships. I really think you should change this to a more pertinent and realistic time period. And there is no way a small crew of people could form an entire kingdom, maybe a village, but no kingdom. Ok, maybe a fleet of full rigged ships like 25 of them could do that since they carry lots of soldiers and marines, but a mono-mast or bi-mast? I don’t think so.) "
This isn't our world.

"The Avennorian kingdom is cleansed by the elven Xeuá magic.

(This I have a difficulty to believe, and I don’t think it’s possible. The elves wouldn’t heal some people they were at war with for a long time. Why would they do that? Unless the Avennorians were part of the force that battled with the elves.)"

The Elves did all they could to heal the land following the War of the Chosen.

"(I really doubt that a little bunch of people from one ship that went through decimation in the Chosen war would be able to wage war for hundreds of years, this is mostly unrealistic and absurd as well as illogical. They do not have the resources even if they have the money, to wage war for so long and so far away from their lands. It is very doubtful that they would have survived at all the war since the other side is much more powerful and would have come to their own lands, crushing any Avennorians there. I think you should revise this and make it a seven years war instead even though it’s unrealistic too. No kingdom the size of the Avennorians’ Kingdom could wage war more than a year. They have no resources, and they would need to cut down the entire forests in their lands to produce ships for 700 years of war and even then. No talking about the manpower, how can so few people be able to wage wars across the sea? They have a hard time winning battles against a few elves! How in hell are they suppose to survive a war with a whole nation that has a thousand times more people and resources than they do? They just don’t have the man power either.)"

I don't understand this. By this point they aren't just a group of people from one ship. They've grown. They've even rebuilt their capital. Recovered after the War of the Chosen. Generations have gone by since that first ship.

"(I would add after this: Seeing that the Avennorians were different physically from the Erpheronians and other people in Santharia. So the Erpheronians took them as freaks of nature and some even thought them to be demon’s child. As the Erpheronians conquered Avennoria, they massacred many Avennorian, especially the more ugly ones and the ones who had more predimoninant Avennorian features. After the war, the true Avennorians were only found in backward villages on the coast and isolated hamlets inland, other than that, the people living there were either ancient slaves of the Shan’Thai, they didn’t have the true Avennorian special features, and Erpheronians and their allies. Today, the Avennorians are becoming extinct and only a few isolated communities of these weird looking people are found along the coast of the province of the Kingdom of Santharia.)"

What are you talking about!?!? They're both human tribes. The differences would be in skin tones and hair colors. And who knows how different that was since there isn't much of a description for the Erpheronians. The Avennorian description is pretty vague even (and needs to be converted to peds).

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 31 July 2002, 22:35:00
well, just check the Avennorian physical description, it sounds like if they were crossbreeds with some fish or sea mamal. LOL

I understand for the elves in the Chosen war a bit, but did they do this to all even their old enemies and rivals?


About the people of one ship into a nation, that is genetically and scientifically totally impossible to have a small crew of 20 to 50 people colonize an entire kingdom. Interbreeding and genetic diseases would have decimated the entire population over time. If you read the first part about the impossibility of having one ship sailing for one year with no supplies and its small crew of a few dozen people founding and colonizing an entire kingdom by themselves, you would understand that the crew of one shipwrecked ship cannot colonize an entire kingdom!

In fact, after the thousands of years, that little bunch of people would have disappeared by being assimilated by the local people without any impact on those people's cultures because they were only like 50 or so people.

With 50 people, you cannot colonize an entire kingdom, those people would only have a village of a few hundred people in the present time in Santharia, no more.

By the way, the sailing ship isn't a colonizing ship, it's an exploring vessel. Second, it's not a space ship filled with thousands of colonist, it's a small monomast or bimast ship with a crew of twenty to fifty people depending on size of ship. And there is no way that they can sail for a year without landing for supplies, no ship and crew can do that. ships need repairs and its crew fresh water and supplies.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 31 July 2002, 23:33:00
Well, if you don't like it, why don't you go back to your little world?

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 August 2002, 02:19:00
I think it's a valid point. This entry could be made a myth, however then it shouldn't be in the history section me thinks.
Don't know Art somewhere stated that Winlok wanted to look over the dates anyway. Maybe one or two dozen ships would be a more probable number with about 1000 people the least. I guess crossbreeding with the local population would give them even more people. The landing would then more mark the historical event that made the native population to rise from their dark age and develop an own cluture.

For the second part I'd think the reason the Erpheronians didn't erradicated the Avennorians because that would be slightly too bloody even for them. Also the distance between these kingdoms is quite big so they would need them as laborers and generally I guess the Erpheronians wouldn't see any ned to go berserk as long as they receive a good amount of tribute and none resists their rule.
So I don't have a problem with them being a bit tolerant conquerors here.
And as Tarq said they're humans that only differ slightly in appearance from others so whiler there could be predjudices en masse they're still seen as humans not like that stinkin' elves! ;)

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 01 August 2002, 09:48:00
Thanks Koldar.... at least someone here has eyes and can read!


Well, did you know that the ancient greeks colonized many parts of the meditenarean as well as the pheonicians? And what happened to them? They disappeared! Not because they got massacred but got assimilated with the local folks and lost their culture. That's what's happening with the native americans and what is happening with the french Canadians, they are being assimilated by a larger more dominant group of people.

So if the Avennorians are to suceed as a people they should be isolationists, be a a bit racist about foreigners and people of different races to prevent breeding with other cultures. And of course, having a thousand people colonize an area.

Logically, a thousand people isn't enough. As an example, when the French colonized America they sent a total of 15000 french colonists over time and today, well, in Québec, there is a higher toll of heart diseases, genetic diseases like cancer and tumors, as well as malformation compared to anywhere in america because of interbreeding, and we were 15000 people in a little more than 400 years! Imagine the thousands of years for 1000 people! I don't think they would still be existing today.

I really think this part should be rewritten, I cannot work on a town that has a totally illogical past. I can't make a culture out of an history that cannot be. Because all villages inside a country has it's own cultural thing, no major changes but their own things nonetheless. If you want, I can rewrite the culture by copy pasting the things and using my format that I used for Gathis, my own world and to create worlds for friends too. It's more professional and much more precise and less general. It would be more detailed and give the players and gms a much more potable amount of info.

Oh, and Tarq, like someone said on this board already, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all, go back to your little gameboy advance and let the old guys talk about this. (Sorry, I know I shouldn't speak like that but crybaby here asked for it.)

So instead of a shipwreck, maybe we should say that the two exploring ships returned talking of vast new lands. Then the leader of these people allowed people to colonise these new lands and many many thousands of people came to the new lands and began to colonize the new lands. After a hundred years, more than 50000 people were living in the new lands, in several villages and one or two towns. After another century, population doubled from new colonists and population growth as well as new lands being colonized thus more food and resources.

I don't know whatreally happened to the fatherland of these people, were they conquered? If so, they wouldn't require to demand independance or proclaim their independance because of that. But if not, they may have to declare themselves independant.

You cannot create a new kingdom that will outlast any assimilation and interbreeding with only 1000 people, you need many thousands of people. I say more than 50000 would last a long time, but I think that if you want their culture to stay and not be forgotten or preventing them from creating a while new one, you need much more people. If not, well, the place will look like the united states, no real culture of its own, being assimilated by the spanish people from the south and orientals from the west. It's a multi-cultural country with no real culture of its own in a certain way. :)

I can come up with a better history, maybe I can work with the person who is working on Marcogg to get his/her vision on how the people should be. BTW, how can you make a town and village without knowing the culture and history of the people? You just can't create a community out of thin air without respecting the culture of the people. That's why I need to know the culture and the correct history of these people.

That's all for now, and thanks again Koldar. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 7/31/02 5:06:00 pm


Title: .
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 01 August 2002, 10:18:00
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:58:48 pm


Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 01 August 2002, 10:25:00
This is a more or less professional culture builder that I have found somewhere.

It's very accurate and MUST be made from top to bottom of the page, you cannot like make the military before knowing what kind of resources the people have, or make the religion before knowing their values and kinship, etc.

This is what I use for everyone, if someone prefers to use something else, well, I give him/her my work using this format and he transforms it into whatever he/she wants it to be.

But this format is the best there is unless you go even deeper into culture building which becomes more a scientific work than a hobby and a game. :)

I based my every cultures in my world on this format, and let me tell you, it's long and very hard, but the results are incredible and very logical.

Thank you for all who read that big post. It's really worth it. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 August 2002, 10:57:00
Please make the final entry in the approbiate format, Feanor. only a reminder, but otherwise it'll get really difficult.

About the Avennorians: Why should the Avennorians not derive from the local population and the newcomers?

Colonization in ancient times and in the later Middle Ages was more or less about replaceing the ruling class not the rural population so in my opinion only marks the historical event where the Avennorian ancestors took over the rule of these lands. So 1000-6000 men are IMO more than enough for them to establish a new, stable ruling class and forge a new culture. Also, think about it, when the local population was less developed in many aspects they might even favour these newcomers and their way of life and assimilate well into their culture. The Ancient Avennorian culture would be the more dominant one and though the Ancestors of the Avennorian would merge into the mass of the native population they would be the igniters of the new culture: The Avennorians.


Also, the Greeks and Phoenicians colonized many parts of the Mediterran and they did not disappear till the Fall of the Roman Empire when new tribes and nations moved into the Region.
The Phoenician and Greek colonies however developed into own kingdoms who had a culture closely aligned to the Phoenician and Greek one. That you don't hear about them is plainly that the colonies developed into new, own nations. Cholchis, Bithynia, Macedonia, Carthage, Ptolomeic Egypt, were all Greek or Phoenician dominated nations.


In Santharia we do not have as many cultures as in the real world so the time frames in which cultures change are bigger. Otherwise we would go crazy! ;)  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Winlok on 01 August 2002, 11:47:00
Feanor what you have down makes perfect sense, but this is fantasy and not your or my site. And everyone else doesn't seem to mind.

#1 In the early ages like BC. Small ships were often lashed together catamaran style, to form one big floating dock or ship. ancient historical ships

1) risk and long distance trade have been around for as long as recorded history, as has been 2) the arms race, which was once a naval arms race, so 3) woe betide the country or empire that gives up a position of strength on the seas, and 4) efficiency in port taxation and excellence in naval recruit training are synonymous with national success.

#2 Also remember this is fantasy, it is based on logic, but is truly illogical. That's how you have Golem's pushing ships along and appeasing gods for favorable winds.

#3 Since the French had a 100 Years War it's conceivable their was a 700 Years War. And if their was a 700 Years War, it's conceivable they sailed for one year.(see #1)



Title: Agggh! Long post!
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 01 August 2002, 11:52:00
Well, I would agree with you, Feanor, that 50 people isn't nearly enough to establish a kingdom. But about the culture developer. THAT THING'S LONG!!! Perhaps you should make a less lengthy version that people could use to reference, becuase herldy any people are going to look all of the way through that. Most woiuld much rather have a less confining scheme. While that is something that may help some people think, it would be far to restraining for others.

It seems sort of like including in the bestiary all about the allelles and certain traits of the animals, which isn't needed. Anyway, I'm more experienced in the development of plants/animals, so that's how I see it.

Stormcrow

Psychotic Wizard-Type



Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 01 August 2002, 12:28:00
First of all Winlok, I think you are doing the same mistake as many people I know do, you are confused with realism and reality and logic.

The world NEEDS to be logical and realistic, but not REAL. If you do not make the world a logical place, then it will make no sense, you will have no laws or order in the world. Anything could happen for no reason at all, just because a dm just felt that it would be nice to have this happen like that, or another dms kills his entire party because he felt mean and nasty that day.

So you are mixing apples with oranges here! Fantasy is something and logic is something else. Fantasy and reality are part of the same thing, while realism and logic are another gang. The world is Fantastic, okay, but it needs logic, realism and common sense.

The golems push ships because they were made that way, and they are animated by magic and that magic was made by someone. so this is logic and realism. They just don't exist because you want them to be like that, and has no reason of being there except that you want it like that. They have a story, a reason to be, and a reason to continue of being there.

Second, no ship, I repeat, NO SHIP in the renaissance or earlier period of time could navigate for more than a few months without resupplying! Hell, even today I don't think it's possible! food spoils and drinkable water disappears very quickly.

Third, a country will send one ship to explore, not an entire fleet. Yes, an entire fleet of explorers going each their own way, but not together. and an exploring ship could not make and entire kingdom because they would have a little crew with lots of room for food and water lasting for two months at most..

fourth, okay, at least you gave a reason for making the the few thousands of people being there until the current time. Having them as the ruling class is no problem, but only a few thousands is still too few and would have been assimilated by the locals or would have succumbed to interbreeding and genetic diseases such as cancer, heart diseases and malformations, even if they were nobles and rulers. You need many thousands of people to successfully colonise an area and as many to control one through thousands of years. I wouldn,t be here telling you this if it would have happened a century in the past, but it's thousands of years here, no culture in our own world is that old and survived without being destroyed or assimilated.

Fifth, France and Avennoria are very different. France had like a hundred times more people than Avennoria, they had like four to ten times more territory and thus resources, and finally, they are one people unlike avennoria which reunite at least two kind of people, the Avennorian rulers and local commoners. No country that small can make a war last more than a couple of years, ten at most, if they would do more, well, they would die out because all the young men would die at war instead of founding families. And this war wouldn't be constant, just battles here and there each year. This isn't France with a few hundred thousand people here, I'm sure that Avennoria at that time didn't have even near of 100000 people living in it. If it had that many people, a few hundred of years later, they would have reached half a million.

Avennoria is very small, and thus cannot support a large amount of troops, especially compared to the slavers of Shan Thai or whatever, forgot the name. lol  They would have been wiped out by the other stronger opponent unlike France who had an even match with england in the one hundred year war. It wasn't a constant war, but the resources of both country at the end was extremely low, so to make a seven hundred year war, you would need a powerful and rich country like the USA or USSR in a medieval setting to be able to do that, but it wouldn't be possible to have such a country because health care and agriculture isn't at the same level, thus making a war more than several years very unprobable, quasi impossible for 100 years and totally impossible for 700 years!

BTW, the one hundred wars I think was in the renaissance, not in the middleages. It was like 1400 or 1500 or something, forgot. I think gun powder existed.

And finally, I'll do the culture my own way, and then you tell me what goes where in your format. but this is of course if I do the culture, but I really cannot make anything without having the culture built. I really don't know how the person working on marcogg can do a town without a proper culture design. hmmm... Oh, and I wont work on the culture without him or her, and everyone working on the area. After that, I'll just copy-paste the things where you want them to be in your format, no big deal. It's just that I cannot do anything with the info you give, it's too little and general.

Except for these points, I have nothing against the things you say and agree with most of them too.

Thanks for replying. :)

BTW, do you like the format? It's very good, if not excellent.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 August 2002, 12:57:00
Maybe calm down a bit. though I'm happy the discussion is based on argumentation I'm not sure it leads anywhere. So stay nice! ;)

To the one thousand not enough. The Ptolomeic dynasty ruled over egypt for centuries. They were Greeks, the important thing for them was only that. that they mingled with Egyptians didn't bother them much.

Also you assume that the people on the ship were the Avennorians right away. I only think they were the ancestors that started the conversion of these few strangers and the local population into one tribe.
Also as it is before the War of the Chosen I would really account that as a myth and don't worry too much about it. Numbers are always adjusted to the prosaic value they have to match (heroes grow more and more lonely and enemies multiply and multiply) so I'd zip that discussion right away. It only means we should consider adjusting that section of the entry.

About the 700 years war it really has to cleared up how that happen, esspecially Why? It is difficult to maintain a common enemy for such a period of time. The children don't know for what the ancestors fought so to speak.
E.g. The reason for the 100 years war taking so long was mainly because France didn't exist as we know it today. About one half of it was English. So what is summarized in the one hundred year war is mainly the disputes between the Frensh ruling house (which ruled only a portion of land smaller than Switzerland) and England who had some difficulties keeping the Frensh nobility at their side. When those ran one by one over to the Frensh king slowly the odds were changing until the English withdrew from the lands.

Also don't mix up medieval warfare with the mass-battles and industrialized warfare of the 20th centuries. Kings rarely recruited more men than they could afford. That is why the armies were relatively small. What hindered them most was also that they could not get money from unplowed fields so they could not pay soldiers if they draw too much peasants into the army. Also the times of war(of actual campaigns with battles) were usually set in spring and early summer so most of the year there were no real fighting except skirmishes (which doesn't mean that none suffered, the armies fed from the countryside = the peasants)
So my main problem about 700 years is why should someone fight so long.
The 100year long wars (Beside the Frensh-English War which took 113 years also the Peleponese War between Sparta and Athens took most of a century) were always a row of campaigns not a constant fighting at all fronts. For such wars there were plainly too few soldiers something that changed in the 20th century...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 01 August 2002, 14:22:00
*twitch* Restraint sucks.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 7/31/02 10:11:26 pm


Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 01 August 2002, 17:15:00
Ok, I call the ships Avennorian just to tell who they were, since I want to know stuff about them not their motherland. I know they weren't Avennorians btw.

So you agree that the 700 years war is something not really possible, at least you see it. :D

Okay then, I'll keep in mind the stuff about one ship colonizing an entire kingdom a myth and legend not a fact. As well as some of the stuff following.

And no, I don't mix up the medieval battles and the modern battles. It's just that it's  impossible for such a small place as Avennoria to even think of invading the slaver's country. Because they don't have the manpower, resources and technology to do it. Ok, maybe if they had vastly superior tech, they might win battles with odds of 5-1 against them, but it's not the case.

You say it is difficult to keep an enemy for so long, well, try to keep the economy rolling correctly with a 700 years war, I don't think it's possible. Maybe we should make this as a legend too, but in fact, the 700 year war was more like an underground railroad to free slaves from the Shan Thai (or whatever they are called, lol) Slaver and bring them back home incognito. This would take a very long time indeed, being outnumbered and outgunned, the Avennorians would have used their heads instead of brawn and would have only made small raids in specific locations, but no total war here.
Uh... where was I mean, or not nice Koldar? You got me there. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 02 August 2002, 14:30:00
To keep the economy running is not so problematic as humans always find a way, but as said without reason the people would not see why they should waste so much time about it...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 02 August 2002, 14:59:00
yeah

hmm, maybe the underground railroad would be more logical then?

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 02 August 2002, 15:00:00
You know, Feanor, you're wrong. This world doesn't need to be logical or realistic. That's what makes it fun. I agree with Winlok that, while it should be based on logic, it should be illogical. And just saying that Winlok is making a mistake is totally out of line. You are the one making a mistake, Winlok knows what he's talking about.

What's the fun of playing a fantasy game if it's all about realism and logic? Nothing. It's best to break the bounds of what is real to us and what is logical. That's what makes it a real fantasy.

So maybe you should open your mind, stop focusing on 'real' and 'logical'. And instead focus on fantasy.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 8/1/02 10:02:48 pm


Title: Re: Culture format
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 02 August 2002, 17:48:00
hhhh...

Why do i need to repeat myself.

If you don't have logic and realism then.... why do I even bother! it seems some people don't know the necessicity of logic in world building and the difference between realism and reality. Look at J.R.R tolkien, his world was built on logic, not on randomness and things happening just for fun.

What do I know anyways, just a newbie here, don't know anything about worldbuilding at all. sorry, I just said stupid things here that make no sense. A world based on logic, what was I thinking?!?

We wont have that hydra in the staircase chasing some heroes, some pyranas inside a volcanic pool in an artic region, or those twelve dragons that dies from a single finger of death spell. boy! And I would have missed all of those stupid things! What was I thinking.

BTW, do you know what logic means? Because if you knew, you wouldn't say such absurd things.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/2/02 12:54:34 am


Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 02 August 2002, 17:51:00
To go back to topic and the real subject of this topic.

I've made the map of Chrondra, it should be posted soon in the maps and area topic.

I think there might be a few adjustments to be done, but nothing major. Also, the description of each major buildings and builings of importance should follow the post of the map. :)

Thanks for everyone that has posted ideas and solutions.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 02 August 2002, 18:02:00
That's the thing, though. Logic isn't a necessity. Yes, there are limitations, but that's so it's more fun for people. But a world where everything is static and totally logical to us isn't all that fun. Yea, there's stuff that makes you say "Whoa! That could never happen!" But that's the great thing, because it is possible here. When that kind of stuff disappears then, imho, it just isn't fun anymore.

You need to learn to suspend disbelief. This is, afterall, fiction. Not everything has to stick to logic.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 8/2/02 1:03:27 am


Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 02 August 2002, 19:44:00
see Tarq, you are confused.


You are confusing reality and fantasy and logic.


A game can be fantastic, having thing happen in it that would never happen in reality (or real life if you don't understand) and still be logic.

What you mean is that you don't want the world to be like reality. Because saying that you don't want the world to be logical is drowning yourself deep!

"Tu te calles, mon p'tit gars!", in french we would say, unfortunately, I don't know the equivalent, nothing insulting though, sounds like what I tried to say above. The drowning thing.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 02 August 2002, 20:28:00
No, I know exactly what I'm saying. Don't treat me like I'm a stupid child.

And, astoundingly, I -really- don't care what you would say in french.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 8/2/02 3:29:33 am


Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Capher on 03 August 2002, 07:49:00
Hm... I am digesting your questions and problems with my Avennorian entry.  I will reply to your concerns in a day or so.

In the meantime, I suggest that all concerned take a deep breath, let it out slowly and try not to use discouraging words, but encouraging words.  I believe we can discuss things without coming across as "superior" just because we may have come up with a better way to world build.  I think that if we are willing to listen to each other we can come to an agreeable comprimise that all can live with.

Capher.



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 August 2002, 08:59:00
Yup, same opinion here, Capher:)  


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Anaea the Marked on 03 August 2002, 09:18:00
:hugs Art and Capher:

i KNEW there was a reason i loved you guys...

"If you gave me a choice between a Northern man, a Northern woman, or a Northern rat - I'd have to pick the rat..."
Anaea- on the north in general



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 03 August 2002, 11:13:00
Thanks, I'll be waiting for your reply Capher.

Meanwhile, I'll keep focusing on Chrondra and think of new things that might be interesting to put in it or around it.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 August 2002, 14:34:00
Yup, just collect various information for now, maybe some Avennorian specifics turn up in the course of development, which you then can try to integrate later on in the Avennorian entry with Capher;)

Oh, and Capher: There weren't many changes in Avennoria lately, but I hope you like the new map at the entry and the picture, done by Quellion, which is a part of the Nepris pic:)  


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Capher on 03 August 2002, 15:03:00
Ok, lets see if I can clarify a few things.  First question was: How could a ship sail one year without re-supplying.  Well, you are correct in your assesment it could not.  

However just because I did not say in my entry that they did or did not does not mean they did not.  If you look at the maps you will see many little islands, and even a continent to the east of Sarvonia.  

You assumed just because I said that a year later they grounded their boat on a hidden reef that they had sailed for a year.  I just said "after a year."  I just did not think it was necessary to put in every little detail at the time.  There are many historical events recorded that did not record every little detail.  Though I admit after looking at your detailed world building program, and remembering what Art has always told us about detail, how that program would make our entries richer, clearer and full of flavor.  

Would you be appeased if that section of the entry was changed to include the Avennorians finding land, gathering foods and searching for fresh water before continuing on their journey?

Next concern of yours was: How could a small group of people form an entire kingdom?  Well, whether you believe the Bible or not, a whole world was populated by just two, Adam and Eve.  But to disperse a religious argument, and Heaven knows we have had enough of those in real life lately, lets look at what the entry really said.  It says that after they ran aground they founded a "small settlement"  No where does it mention they built a huge kingdom.  

Their lands and villages which are only four by the way come into existence after a long period of time.  Ciosa was founded in the year 11348 B.S.  Marcogg in the year 10350, and Klinsor and Chrondra between the years of 10000-9800 B.S.  They actually did not become a "kingdom" until the year 9500 B.S. Right at the begining of the war of the chosen.

So if you take 11348 minus 9800 you have what? 1548 years to build a kingdom.  Isn't that enough time?

Now as far as the people are concerned you state that it would be impossible or improbable for such a small group to form such settlements.  Inbreeding would produce genetic malformities, sterilizations, and eventually the population would be killed off.  

I do not know much about such things, and I admit it, however if say twenty five couples survived such a journey at sea, and assuming that out of those couples each has a child during that year.  You could concievably have a population upon arrival and founding of Ciosa of maybe fifty people just giving it small ball park figures.  Because who knows if twins were not born?  Anyway you have fifty people, though 25 are just one year olds, You still have twenty five couples not related to one another growing, having more children, giving in marriage, so forth and so on.  Is it that improbable to grow, or do you really think they would die off?

If it would appease you I could edit the entry and say that twenty five couples left on the ship instead of just saying a group of explorers.  Would that help?

The rest of the questions I will address later.  I would like to hear what you have to say to my answers to these questions first before I continue.

Thanks for your interest in the Avennorian tribe and I hope I helped somewhat.

Anaea-*Hugs* to you too.  Hope to catch you online or email?

Art, yes I noticed the map and kudos to Quellion for the map.  

Capher.

Edited by: Capher at: 8/2/02 10:10:30 pm


Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 03 August 2002, 18:22:00
Okay, thanks for clearing your point of view for the Avennorians and their history a bit, it's a bit clearer now.

Okay, maybe it did stop by on islands here and there. But the ship that was sent was an exploring ship, not a colonist vessel. So the crew would be (mostly) men alone if the ship was truly an exploration ship. No?

And yes, 25 couples wouldn't last three generations before being absorbed by the local population. Hell! Just check out the Franch Canadian, we were 15000 colonist from the province of québec to the mouth of the mississipi. You know what? We're being assailed from foreigners like Americans, oriental, middle-easters, africans, etc. from all side, that is why we qould like to become independant so that we would not disappear in two hundred years. Do you know what is the second most spoken language outside the province of québec in Canada? no, it's no longer french, it's chineese!!! So your little village of 50 adults wouldn't keep their cultural identities for more than three generations, the time needed for the survivors to die.

Genetically speaking, we, in québec, are the people who have the most heart diseases in whole of america. This is due to the close relations one had in his ancestry. Like distant cousins, and this was in 360 years of existance. I don't think 25 couples' culture would still exist after 1548 years, HELL! I don't even think my people in the real world will exist in 1200 more years because of immigration and foreign pressure, especially if we don't get our independance someday, so imagine the Avennorians.

A solution:

So if you want the Avennorian to exist, you must make the ship an exploring ship, that would come back and bring back strange fruits, vegetables and drawings of vast fertile lands to settle. After that, a steady flow of colonists would be lead to this place, until the fatherland falls, but until then, dozens of thousands of people coming all over their fatherland would have immigrated to the new lands.

As the fatherland fell or whatever happened to them, the colonist were sadened but yet happy to know about this. they were now free from taxes and were now a kingdom on their own.

So let's say that over a few generations after initial colonization to the end of the existence of their faterland, the population would be in the dozens of thousands because of children and constant immigration from their fatherland. But when the fatherland fell, they became more like the ruling class, because of their greater technology and knowledge they had versus the somewhat primitive local population found later in the colonization years.

Finally, a thousand years later, their initial culture would have completely disappeared because of the new needs, new physical resources, kinship rules, etc. to be replaced by a new culture, the Avennorian's modern culture. Their population would be mostly a mix of several different cultures, especially from neighboring lands (Like the USA but in the medieval setting) so that not true ancient Avennorians would remain except in the deepest most isolated villages in Avennoria. This would be before the invasion of the Erpheronians, after that, well, even fewer were left. The avennorians' original look is pretty lost after that thousand years of crossbreeding with locals and immigration from foreign lands to theirs. So now, few would look like the fishmen you describe in your doc, only the coastal communities would have many of them, and those with the original looks of the old Avennorian pre-chosen war, are only found in the most isolated village.

That's one of the solutions that I've thought of, the other wasn't really improving our problem, it's was pretty much like having one boat making an entire kingdom.

So, no, 75 people cannot make tens of thousands of people within just a couple of centuries, not even a thousand years or two. Even if they were isolated from outside influence in the Eden Gardens, they would die out due to genetical problems in the end.

Maybe we could help each other if you want, making the Avennorians more than they are just now. In short, they are colonists, that are sometimes in conflict with the elves, that participated in the war of the chosen, that has no record to what happened in the age of myths, that warred against the slavers for many long years (you didn't comment on that Capher), then waged war on the elves, were conquered by the erperonians by the back door, and now were nothing more than a vassal of the Santharian Kingdom.

If you want to know, the Avennorians would be the first to separate from the kingdom du to their origins. They would want their autonomy once again you know? :)

Like I said earlier, maybe we can make the Avennorians with my culture builder, then copy/paste our new info in the format that the Santharian Dream Team (lol) uses for the cultures. No big deal, but it works so much better with that culture builder, you start from the top then go piece by piece until the end of the doc, not skipping any steps on the way. after that, you have a complete culture.

I know, it's very tough and a bit long, but imagine that I have like over a fifty different "human" cultures in my own world, and I've done this to each of the major cultures that exists. That's not counting all the other "non-human" cultures that I've made. The point is, after you have completed this, building cities, monuments, strongholds, etc, for these people becomes very easy since you know who and what they are, their needs, their values and kinship, superstitions, etc.

So ring if you want to work on the Avennorian, because I really cannot make a town out of the so little information that is available. I don't know how people would do a town from that amount of cultural info, I have no clue, he would need to invent all sorts of things and this might not be along the peth of the initial idea of the creator of those people. That is why I can't create a town or it MIGHT ruin the vision you had of the Avennorians.

So if you can help me out by answering a few questions and maybe increase the amount of information on the Avennorians in the process, I'll gladly return the favor too. :)

I am a box of ideas, never ran out of them. lol

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 August 2002, 00:09:00
Please note in your concepts that we've decided to do changes to important dates to keep everything consistent! Winlok has some details on shipping dates. The Era of Sailing starts around 5700 b.S., so in general everything before this time has to be moved in this direction and is of mythical nature only.

Era of Silence: Unknown - around 5700 b.S. In this time
myths happen where mainly Gods are still involved
Age of Myths: 5700 b.S.-1655 b.S.=other myths

I'd also vote for not using too accurate dates at the Age of Myths (e.g. as you did with 11348 b.S. for the Founding of Ciosa). Everything happening during the Age of Myth and has to remain more or less vague to a certain degree, Mainly use ca. dates.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Capher on 04 August 2002, 10:49:00
Ok Art,  and Ferin, if we decide to do this with the Avennorians, then eventually it would have to be integrated with all of the other tribes on the site.  And though I believe after looking at your "World Builder" the tribes and Sarvonia would be filled with detail and rich with flavor we are looking at a tremendous amount of work.  And I am afraid may change the "Dream" and that is what concerns me the most.  

Besides all of that, Art and those who created Santharia, its tribes, towns and everything else would have to approve of it.

Oh, and one more thing, please do not make fun of those who tried with the best of their ability to create the tribes, history and places of Santharia/Sarvonia/Sorren.  Just because they did not have the expertise you seem to have does not mean they did not try?  Give them all a tremendous amount of credit for this "Dream"

P.S.S.  I did not mention the other part of your questions because the only abnormality the Avennorians had was something that was developed over thousands of years of "Micro-Evolution"  Their ears and circulatory systems adapted to the depths that they dove in the ocean, until it became part of their genetic makup.

Also, you keep on saying that the Avennorians would be swallowed up by the local people.  My question is; What local people?  There were none, except elves and elves and humans at that time did not even associate with each other, much less mate with one another.

However, like I stated in the begining.  If you wish to pursue this and if it is allowed by Art and the others, I will be willing to help, but remember this is Arts and the others Dream, not yours!!!  If you wish to contribute, I am sure your most welcome, but please, I beg of you, please do not change the Dream into one of your own worlds.

Thanks for listening and caring enough to help.

Capher.



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 04 August 2002, 11:27:00
Maybe you're making it yourself a bit complicate, Feanor? While you have some valid points I think you overestimate their importance. the entry pretty well covers the way the Avennorians live so their cities would follow this mood pointed out in the entry. While it is good to discuss points that seem not to fit I think they can't hinder one thinking up the present-day city. ;)

Capher, no concern about the world builder. While I find it interesting I think it would be too technical too my taste. I favour an idea I turn into a kingdom without letting myself getting restricted so as said for me it is interesting but not liek something I'd use. ;)


Feanor, I think your mentioned problems about one colony ship being notenough to populate a kingdom and the 700 years war is valid to some sense.

However I see no problem why this story about the one ship shouldn't be the myth of the Avennorians about their landing in Santharia?
Capher, I don't think that all humans came from Fav'ai'al'calar after the war, this would spark another Jihad about the question if myths are true in Santharia, or not, eh Art? ;)  
I would see these first millenias as the way the Avennorians later "reconstructed" their history so wether the first Avennorians merged with a rural population and formed the Avennorian tribe or a great amount of Pre-Avennorians landed in Santharia in the beginning seems not so important to me. That took place in the age of myths so highly insecure information I guess. ;)

Currently I think the most important thing would be to get the new timeline of the tribe working, the rest are things that should be given thought then.


Sidenote: Art? Capher? Maybe we should generally agree on putting the earliest time of confirmable historical events after the War of the Chosen? Before that everything ever written down could have been lost due to this war and only after that we have something inbetween history and myth? even then we're dealing with more than 10 000 years of history that has to be pointed out more or less. I just have some problems with having knowledge about something that took place before a devastating, world destructing war.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 04 August 2002, 12:53:00
sorry if the things I said read mean, but it wasn't my intention, the works and ideas are great, I already said that, you know, nothing against anything.

What I mentioned was just a solution and idea to solve the problem, nothing else.

Capher, we can use the Culture builder to build the Avennorians but we would only need to copy/paste the info in the SD format and there is no problem doing that. We use the CB to make the cultures and then we put the info in SD format, no big deal. So it wouldn't change anything in the dream except adding more detail and colour, and i am sure that the creators wouldn't mind that, I know I wouldn't. :)

If you say there wasn,t any other people in Santharia at that time, where did all those other tribes came from??? anyways, I think Koldar answered your question already. :)

and no again, I don't want to change the dream, only to put more detail in it, making it more realistic, pertinent and keep it an out of the ordinary rpg world.

"P.S.S. I did not mention the other part of your questions because the only abnormality the Avennorians had was something that was developed over thousands of years of "Micro-Evolution" Their ears and circulatory systems adapted to the depths that they dove in the ocean, until it became part of their genetic makup" Well, well, I thought genetical changes and evolution wasn't possible in the SD... that is weird no? Well, that's what some people told me in another forum. hehehe

Yayaya, we already agreed that the one ship was a myth, it was just an answer to Capher, Koldar. While 700 year war isn't just possible, well, not like the French-english war, but something less open, like the underground railroad I mentioned, or raids, or privateering, but not open warfare, the place is too small to take on such a big enemy. But the 700 years wars could be a myth too btw, it could be something else than a war also.

And the doc on the Avennorian is like their stone age not modern age. A LOT can happen in a few hundred years, so imagine in a thousand years. Being in huts made out of whale bones and sea stuff is pretty darn primitive, so in the modern day, especially after the Erpheronian invasion, the new leaders would have teached the lesser tribe new technologies and ways to build things, so that in modern age, you would find typical Avennorian buildings only in the old parts of each town and in the old villages that were spared by all the wars the Avennorians went through.

One thing is for sure, you need a real timeline. Mythical timeline are only valid to a single culture, not to all cultures in the world. So if we would see this as a mythical timeline, let's continue the way the history was made, and say that the myths are from the elven cultures. Having a detailed universal timeline in-game would be quite unprobable, we, in the 21st century, we know barely of ancient times before christ and this is with carbon dating and such scientific methods. So having an old timeline would be very improbable, at least, not a very specific ones, especially for the most ancient parts. Only the elves would have the capacities to record history due to their long lifespan.

So we would need to adjust the myths and legends according to each individual culture. I know, it's a lot of work, and lots of time, but my mom always said that if you want to do something, do it right. :D    I am only suggesting what could improve greatly the dream, don't want to modify it in any ways, just increasing the amount of colour and detail in it.

Cultures are the most difficult things to do, there is a lot of details and work to be done, but once you've done one, the others will be easier to do, much like a new software you just purchased. It takes me one day of work to logically build an entire culture, quite long, but what is worse is that it is very hard to do, you need to think alot making things logical and making sense as well as staying creative and interesting to read. Quite harduous, that's why I was happy to know that you weren't creating new races in SD, because for eac new races, there is the possibility of having dozens of different cultures.

The current Avennorians are logically a mix of the people that lived there before them, Erpheronians and the neighboring tribes. So having a really pure Avenorian would be quite rare and only found in the most isolated places in Avennorian province today.

Yes, a small amount of people cannot maintain their culture if a larger and/or more sophisticated culture is present nearby, because their culture will disappear over time and be replaced by the other. Much like what happened in many countries in of our own world. Conquering without armies.

Remember that Avennoria is smaller than the american colonies' lands before independance btw, it's like 200-300 wide by 1000 long at it's biggest in time. Dunno if they are Km or miles, but it looks pretty darn small to me, it wouldn't be able to support lots of people, especially in a medieval setting. there are lots of hills and mountains too, reducing the amount of arable land required for agriculture, having a forest full of elves preventing hunting and clearing makes things even harder. So think about it and you'll see that things like 700 years wars, and huge stuff liek that aren't really possible logically. I estimate by the size of the place that there shouldn't be more than 200,000 to 250,000 of humans and people living with the humans, higher than that would cause famine and overpopulation I think. What do you think the population should be?

Ok, so case closed on everything that happened before the age of myths since it is too far away for humans to record and should be left as stories to scare children. I would put anything before the Erpheronians as myth too because the history is written by the victors, so the Erpheronian timeline would be used throughout the Santharian kingdom except maybe the allies they had during that war. So no Avennorian timeline would be found, maybe in the library of an old magician somewhere that was spared and past down from generation to generation, but certainly not in a library, if they are advanced enough to have a library. lol

Atimidor is right, using specific dates for things that happened more than a certain time ago is wrong and should be vague and approx. But like I say above, if you make such a timeline, only the elves would have such a calendar, and more importantly, only the most civilize elves would have it, no other races or culture since they don't live long enough and some don,t even have the knowledge or technology to do so.

i think I've answered to everybody's questions and replied to everyone... :lol

thanks for replying so soon btw guys. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 August 2002, 08:26:00
Just a short note concerning the world builder thingy:

We have elaborated a system here in Santharia, which covers the most important aspects of each culture. It is our intention to apply this system to all existing tribes/cultures in the world of Sorren. Not all tribes have been adjusted to this system yet, so there's still work to be done. So it's logical that we won't change this system until we haven't elaborated all tribes according to this system. If these basics are all covered, we can still elaborate more details later on at various tribe and eventually add further sections etc. As for now this hasn't any priority, so just stick to the system please in the final entry and treat sections you think you definitely need to create as subsections of existing sections. I don't to have lots of detailed information, so just go ahead, just make sure not to turn current organization upside down, okeydokey? ;)  


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Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 05 August 2002, 10:28:00
OK, LOL :lol


I will try.


Just joking.

Ok, Chander, we got the okie dokie from big boss, we have a little bit of loose and can work a litle bit on the culture but more on the region. So if you can, get a hold of my e-mail, icq, MSN, or whatever you prefer among these and we'll chat a bit about what I was wondering about leaving this forum for info on Chrondra alone. :)

Thank you

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Capher on 06 August 2002, 04:18:00
Hm.. Ok, I have given this much thought.  Feanor, lets use the Avennorians as an experiment in your world builder concepts.  If it turns out ok, and Art like it we will intergrate it into the main site, if not, well then we will try and work with what we have.  We will use all available data including the new  Dates and information concerning how entries should be considered before the  War of the Chosen

I think we can safely assume that after the war, we can really start to build and use accuarate dates and so forth always taking into account the historical timelines already set up.

If this is agreeable to you.  Then start doing your pasting/copying thing and post it in the Tribes/Races thread under the heading Avennorian Exp. and I will read what you come up with and comment and help you along the way to get a sense/feeling of how I percieved the Avennorians and thier original homland and people to be.

Ok?  Any questions?  Any more comments from you Art, or suggestions?

Capher.



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 06 August 2002, 11:25:00
Ok, no prob.

And if Art and the big heads of SD don't agree, well, we'll just move our work inside the SD format anyways, increasing the amount of detail on the Avennorians, so no time woudl be lost.


Ok, I'll put the city aside, and work on the culture first. But you must understand first that this culture we are working on will be the modern Avennorian culture not the primitive or the ancient one like the one in your doc. The one in your doc seems to be of stone age or maybe copper age or something like that, I doubt the rich and powerful live in huts and houses made out of whale bones and seashells. Ok, maybe as decoration, but not made entirely of that, especially since the invasion of the Erpheronians, they would have started to build the Erpheronnian way since they were a superior tribe.

So this culture will be from like three generations in the past to the current, and maybe a little older than that since there wasn't any major events in Avennoria for a couple of hundreds of years.

Other than that, we can work on it easily. I have finished the map of Chrondra, I'll get back to it's description once we have finished the culture of the Avennorians. Be patient. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Capher on 06 August 2002, 13:29:00
I will, always am.

Capher.



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 06 August 2002, 22:36:00
Ok Capher and the worldbuilding dudes, first step is done and is in the Race and cultures thread.

Awaiting your comments and additional info that I might have missed or are simply unknown to me. :D  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 21 August 2002, 23:31:00
Ok, I think that Chrondra shouldn't have more than 2000 inhabitants in the best part of the year, with a minimum of 1750 in the worst part of the year.

Most lives in old shacks and single room houses of very small stature, the core of the town has been replaced by modern building such as the Baron's Manor and a nice Hotel in front, as well as many other industrial and commercial buildings.

Some buildings have special purpose while others are simple and have no use except look and/or maybe residential.

Since this is an old town of lesser importance, the Erpheronian invasion wouldn't have occupied it for a very long time, and would have simply put a lord and a loyal amount of guards to keep the population under control. So very few people in Chrondra are pure Erpheronians, most are either a mix of Avennorian and neighboring clans or more or less pure inland Avennorians lacking the predominant features of a coastal Avennorian. Even maybe half Avennorian, half Erpheronian.

The exports of the city would be high quality arrows, finely crafted bows,  some surface common metals found east of Chrondra but still in the lands of the Baron, and some crops from neighboring farmlands. Other produced resources are just enough for local use.

Imports would be steel and/or iron, horses (minor import), heavy metals (gold, silver, etc.), gemstones, spices, seashells, whale derived products. Maybe some others but these are the ones that comes up to my mind. :)

After you have aknowledged this, I'll move on to detail the town a lot. :D

That's all for now.



Title: Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 August 2002, 12:15:00
Guess this looks fine so far. Check out similar Places entries like Nepris or Parthanul, and try to make your entry according to the scheme. I guess it would also be good to include a special section (like Talia did in Strata) where you mention and describe the most important buildings of Chrondra a bit, some sort of short sight-seeing tour:)  


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