Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Greybark on 13 May 2000, 22:56:00

Title: Brownie
Post by: Greybark on 13 May 2000, 22:56:00
Just wanted tolet everyone know.....
Will be making a macro-history of Brownies, over their 9,000 year history, including famous and infamous people in the past, language discussions, geographical considerations, whatever. Then will probably move on to something else. Brownies can add flavor to a story, so hopefully somebody will include them in a war or something.
See compendium reference.

I'm a little intimidated by an entire world, so cutting my teeth on a valley first ;)

Title: Question
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 May 2000, 00:35:00
I will probably draw a little larger map of the brownie valley, so I wanted to ask: Is there a name for the new river? Or some more names for everything shown on the map (name for every mountain etc.)? If so, just tell me so that I can integrate it.

BTW: Why are brownies called "brownies" (why not "whities" or "blackies" *grin*) - any idea?  

Title: Re: Question
Post by: Greybark on 14 May 2000, 00:39:00
Hey Art!
Wow! Thanks! I greatly appreciate it!
Basic shape of the valley: 3 miles long (east-west), 1 mile wide. Only easy way in is from the west, everyplace else surrounded by mts. The small river/large creek flowing out of this western gap should get its water from two smaller creeks. The southern one comes from hilly area in the southeast of the valley, and branches and subbranches, with many tiny streams feeding this southern stream.
The northern stream comes over flatter ground, very few streamlets leading to it, ultimate souce is a waterfall coming down the mountain to the north-east. All this area is forrested to various degrees. Will get names to you in the next couple of days.  

Edited by Greybark  at: 5/13/00 9:36:49 am

Title: Well, add Brownies to a story may be possible.
Post by: Xaron on 14 May 2000, 06:23:00
You either must have a special item in the Brownie valley, have a few traveling Brownies and Xaron meet eachother, or this river must be deep (more then a meter deep or more than 3 meter wide) so that Xaron can´t cross it (gnomes generally despise water in large amounts, like rivers or lakes. Kind´a like most hobbits :-)

For an indication of Xaron´s travels, draw a straight line from Elving to Argor (a vulcano). There he must find an item of 'Elemental Protection', which protects against fire (probably a necklace or a cape).
He needs to find 3 more items of elemental protection, one against the element air (or wind if you prefer), one against the element water and one against the element earth (I think I will put that one into the hands of a (gready?) son of a dwarven king).

The time plays when Xaron is 71* and already adventured for about ten years (at the time Artimidor is here, writing the Carpá'dosiá, Xaron will be 195**)

* = Gnome are considered adults when they reach the age of 60.
** = Gnomes usually become 250 years. So at this age Xaron can be considered an adventurer soon to reach the end of his career and will be bound to settle somewhere :-)

Xaron the annoying

Title: names
Post by: Greybark on 14 May 2000, 10:21:00
Hey Art!
Here's what I've been able to come up with.....if any of them look stupid to you, let me know, and I'll change it..
Please reference
1 Life Mountain
2 Death Bringer
3 Mount of the Cheiftan
4 Sorceresses' Peak
5 The Gate  (looks very similar to from the valley looking West)
6 Wide River
7 River of Reeds
8 Dark Hills
9 Snake River
10 Bottomless Lake
11 Diamond falls

The area circled in red on the right are the basic limits of the Brownie valley.
Oh, and the valley itself? They call it "home".

The name Brownies, like all the other Peoples except for Hobbits, come from European mythology. Why they are not Orangy or pinky I have no idea....

Looking forward to seeing the map! Thanx!

Xaron: easiest way would be to have a small group of Brownies meet you, or to run into a group living somewhere else. There are a few of them living almost everywhere, and a few larger sSettlements outside of the valley. Note: Most important social unit for a Brownie is the clan. Usually an occupational title, with a combination of people descended from a famous ancestor, as well as people joining guild style. Membership is fluid. Strongest loyalties are to the clan rather than town or anything else. Feel free to make up your own clans. (not the magic clan though...I would like to make that one).
BTW: maybe you would know the answer to this... How would you classify Life Magic? (out of the 4 elements) Ya know, can affect living things in various ways, changing size, health levels, etc. etc. of anything living, with no affect whatsoever on anything non-living. Would it be a subdivision of Earth?

Edited by Greybark  at: 5/13/00 7:15:40 pm

Title: Life magic, the elemtal representation
Post by: Xaron on 14 May 2000, 12:35:00
> BTW: maybe you would know the answer to this... How would you classify
> Life Magic? (out of the 4 elements)
> Ya know, can affect living things in various ways, changing size, health
> levels, etc. etc. of anything living, with no affect whatsoever on anything
> non-living. Would it be a subdivision of Earth?

Hmmm, well, if no-one of the others has to say anything, I would say it comes from Ava. Ava gave a free will to living beings. But if it should be of the elements... I would say, the fifth element: "Magic" (I know I didn't include that in the list written two posts back. And no, I don't make it up just this vrey second :-)

Magic is everywhere, it is not bound to gravity-laws (air going up the sky, water and earth falling down, fire between them). It is not bound to borders, but magic can be found in the earth, in the air, in the water, and even in fire, between the stars (a vacuum doesn't make the element magic be not apparent there: magic is totally different from the other 4 elements).

I would say that the first four elements represent a part of Ava, like her fury (fire) etc. (Note that one element can represent several parts, not just fury (destructive?), but also passion (constructive?) etc)
The fifth element, magic (in my opinion) does not reflect a part of Ava, but her very essence. That way it can be used to shape the other elements into a magical fireball, a constructive healing-chant (either earth or water), a mental boost in the sense of braveness (I think the mind is represented by air, though I can hardly explain why that'd be).

Maybe you should ask Artimidor if he approves with this, and he can redirect you to someone who knows more (that'll probably be an elve. This gnome only spend half of his much shorter youth (30 yrs) with elves, while elves spend 100+ yrs with elven stuff, which can include magic)

In total, I would say it is water or earth (both make the flowers and the trees grow, the source of all other life). Earth delivers food, while water refreshes. Maybe the Life Magic is a mixture between the two, shaped by the element magic, balanced by the caster.

(ok, a long reply, but I hope I am not wrong and it helps you :-)

Xaron the annoying

Title: Earth it is!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 May 2000, 12:40:00
Yup earth is the element for Life Magic (=restore matter), I guess.

BTW: Thanx for the explanation in the 5th element of wood in your mail. It's ok that brownies have other elemental beliefs, but don't forget that these should be explained somehow in the Compendium too!

Title: Would't be ok if Xaron meets...
Post by: Xaron on 14 May 2000, 13:56:00
...a hunter party? Sitting on rabbits, bow and spear at hand, hunting after an... ehm... an ehm... well, a something. (Do Brownies hunt and what is their common food?)

Xaron the annoying

Title: Re: Would't be ok if Xaron meets...
Post by: Greybark on 15 May 2000, 00:19:00
Yes they hunt, usually with weapons coated in plant-derived chemicals to put the animal to sleep or poison it (means you only have to hit it several times rather than several thousand times.
Food....hmmmm.....well, they raise mice as cattle....for hunting, just think of what might look appetizing at that size...sparrows? frogs? I haven't thought it through yet.
Love the riding on rabbits idea...would have never thought of it...They'd have to be careful of the natural predators of rabbits though

Title: Yet another strange question.....
Post by: Greybark on 16 May 2000, 02:36:00
I'm working on putting together Brownie pre-history...kind of backstory, I guess, so that things will have reasons where they are, rather than coming out of nowhere. One question I ran into, that I just can't figure out. What would a half elf half dwarf look like? They seem to be opposites....

Title: brownie map
Post by: Greybark on 16 May 2000, 05:58:00
ya know, there's one more place that could be important enough to be on the map. The Tree Circle, on the triangle of land right where the river forks. I guess you could call it the Brownie capitol for the last 100 years.
(By the way, if its too much hassle, most of the names don't matter....just this one and The Gate (entrance to the valley))

Title: Answers
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 May 2000, 11:55:00
Well, there will never be a dwarf who will get intimate with an elf - impossible! Just ask our dwarven expert, Lytenian Dragon (currently stressed I guess)!!

And I've already drawn the map and it will be on the site if somebody will upload it. Unfortunately the situation in the UK is not clear currently, and even more strange: I cannot upload the changes to the German mirror site as the server doesn't let me in:(

Please be patient! Maybe I've interpreted the map a little different (Gate a bit more south etc.) - well you'll see when it's on the site!

Title: Re: Answers
Post by: Greybark on 16 May 2000, 23:17:00
Wow, you'refast! (Greybark pictures Art sitting scrunched into an old fashioned schooldesk, frantically drawing on it with pencil, then dragging the desk over to the scanner...)
I'm looking forward to seeing what you came up with....I'm enjoying the collaborative aspect of everything here....everything has to mesh with what has already been created, but within those guidelines you can twist it around....great fun. Thanks again for drawing the map.

Hmmmm....Elves and Dwarves....well, at the end of the "Return of the King" We have a dwarvish elf-friend.... Going thru disasters together, being chamged into something a bit different than what they were before (not to mention smaller, having to deal with an increased metabolism and greatly decreased lifespan, and being part of a tiny community that *must* work together if they are to survive the terrifying world that they find themselves a part of. Even under these situations, I'll grant the first generation might not be open to the concept, but I have seen many very improbable things happen in real life, why not in Santharia? How many generations would it take? Surely their children or childrens children or great-grandchildren could overcome the elven/dwarven pejudice? After all, occasionally there are half-elves, presumably half drarves as well...
Pls let me know what you think :)  

Title: Elves & dwarves
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 May 2000, 02:20:00
Well, I'd say: Friendship between elves and dwarves can't be a problem (although it is an exception to the rule). But I have my problems with thinking about a -err- "dwelf" - I just can't imagine how two competely different principles can find their way together (especially concerning the appearance of the body)... However, there's a race which has something of a dwarf and an elf alike: The human...

Title: So much for elves and dwarves
Post by: Greybark on 19 May 2000, 10:40:00
Yeah, that's all I was able to come up with as well....
Might have to scrap their cosmology, start over.....
but let me ask....Every major race is connected with an element.....where could the new races, like Brownies and Gnomes, fit in?

I guess I'll have to rewrite the compendium entry.....just as well.....

Thanks for your patience....I forgot to log  recently, so didn't see your reply.

Title: Brownies & their origin
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 19 May 2000, 11:59:00
You said yourself that brownies originated from other races (transformed by a wizard), so there is no element involved directly in their creation.

As for gnomes: Gnomes have similarities with dwarves, so the element of earth could play an important role. Gnomes also have something of orcs (fire), but also of humans (water), I guess. Of course spirit (wind) also plays a (smaller) part, but I guess a gnome would answer this question better.

Updating the Compendium entry is ok (don't forget e.g. how old they can get etc.) - please copy the text from the Compendium and improve it! This way already corrected errors/misspellings won't show up (again)...

Title: Age
Post by: Xaron on 19 May 2000, 12:34:00
Yup, I forgot that part. I will see if I can add some extra data on gnomes and get the painting ready... But that'll probably have to wait till next week. I'm having exams right now...

Xaron the annoying

Title: starting over???
Post by: Greybark on 19 May 2000, 22:24:00
Well, now that I'm finally convinced that mixing elves and dwarves would be pointless as it would only make humans, I need to figure out a different origin....may scrap the whole made by a wizard idea.....currently letting it bubble in my subconscious......

Title: Possible solution
Post by: Xaron on 20 May 2000, 09:45:00
Well, you could let elves mix with humans and dwarfs mix with humans and those results mix with eachother. Since it happened a long time ago, this could be the sole lineage that persisted, while other variants (pure small elves, pure small dwarves, half-elves etc) could be extinct. (Kind'a Darwinistic approach?)

And if you really wanna drop the mage idea, maybe they came into existence by "Wild Magic", an uncontrolled form of magic, which can be both harmful and harmless and comes into being when the balance of magic is upset (like a mage casting lots of powerful spells, thus draining (all) magic in an area).

Xaron the annoying

Title: Re: Possible solution
Post by: Greybark on 20 May 2000, 10:44:00
Yeah, that's more or less the original idea.....
It seems to have too many holes in it though.

How about this one: When the lightning strikes the tree of life, burning it to half, there is a tremendous backlash of magic. Many strange effects ripple out from the tree, changing many things in their path. Among many other things is the creation of brownies....

This avoids the whole question of other races....
so what do you think?

Title: Good idea
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 May 2000, 11:37:00
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Just like the dragons e.g. who sprang from the burning leaves of the Tree of Life... Would be interesting to explain in the myth of the beginning of the world how the brownies e.g. derived from ashes which dropped from the first humans who were already enlighted with the spirit of Avá - and thus "small" humans came to life... Or something similar...

Title: Vindicated!
Post by: Greybark on 08 June 2000, 09:22:00
I knew elfin racism could be overcome!
"Deld is the name often given to the product of an elf/dwarf union. Much rarer than normal muls, Delds do not have the incredible endurance attributed to most muls - their elven parentage ensures this. It is because of this that Delds are so rare - human/dwarf muls are bred mainly for their ability to work for incredible amounts of time, in addition to their ability to recuperate from any exertions in a relatively short time period. As such Deld are usually only born out of a non-forced union between an elf and dwarf - an uncommon occurrence to say the least."
taken from
Brownies, however, remain as they have tracing back to other races now....but its nice to have someone agree with you :D

Title: Brownies never give up:)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 June 2000, 11:46:00
*hehe* You never give up, eh? Still a weird combination - can't really imagine an elf searching eagerly for treasures - or a dwarf with pointed ears... *harhar*