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16  Santharian World Development / Cosmology, Myths and Religions / Re: Ulvur Origin Myth on: 19 June 2009, 18:39:36
Hello Eldreneth! Welcome! :)

Please, follow Dekli's advice !

And then some advice from me as well!

Please, for the begin of your career here, choose something else than the Ulvur. They are Ishilir's baby, completely all of on piece and I think we should ask him, if he likes any addition. Apart from that, you have not told us anything new what we cannot find in the entry itself already, though a bit more storylike worded. But that is not enough.

Have you had a look already at the cosmology board? If you are interested in writing myths, go there, read the monster introduction thread (guideline) and then choose a Santharian or Aeruillin goddess, that would be easier for us to comment as well.
17  Organization and General Discussions / Newbie Information, Joining Requests and Recruitment / Re: Greetings, I am Remaom on: 16 May 2009, 16:14:21
Hello Remaom,
Some remarks from my side to help you along.

Well I did mention in my post that I did know of the existing life magic. But that I was hoping to mix them together so to speak.

„Mixing together“ as you call it is not the way we do it, it is more an adding stuff to what has already been done. We do respect the work which others have contributed to an high degree, so changes are only welcomed if it is really necessary and there are no other ways out. Old entries might need to be expanded or unclear things presented more clearer, but generally we don‘t change things without reason.

My ideas do have some set principles of operation too. A science to them if you will, which may or may not fit with the magic systems I have already read about.

To begin with a new magic system is a endeavour too great for a beginner, I would say. We had a ban on new magic systems which is not really lifted - Coren has posted his magic not long ago, but he has worked on it for six years now, so.... Please don‘t just throw out some ideas, but try to put on your new concept very clearly, think about where it could be implemented, which tribe would fit etc... (and that is the difficult thing)

Necromancy is developed? Looking down the magic list, I can not find it.

Not all is on the site yet, but we have some experts on necromancy, one is Twen, she has a Santharian break just now, but you could PM her nevertheless.

I don't have any specific question about how something relates to my ideas or works in general in regards to magic systems at the moment.

I have a ton of questions regarding the correct procedure to post ideas (I did read the guidelines for such) Most of which I am not a able to formulate into words.

Well, that should not be too difficult, if you follow the templates. Just read the Newbie section a second time, that might help, it is a lot to memorize.

Actually, I feel a little bit overwhelmed. I am not sure what is needed before I am allowed to post despite reading the help files for such.

Is there any way I could just post as best as I can my general ideas using the guidelines as best as I can. If I mess up on procedure, or none of one idea or another can be used, or what not; that I could just be told then?

I think the best would be, if you

- read the Newbie section again, look at templates and at newer entries (with a date at their base), then you might get a hint how it works. Look at the monster thread in the places forum e.g., there is a lot written down which helps you.
- read the site, for the next three months, each day, then a idea will be forming in your head, how your stuff could be integrated.

I see one problem with you: You are bringing a lot of ideas with you, from the outside, and you want to implement them here. That is always very difficult and will not work most times. It is much more better, if you accommodate yourself here with reading the site, reading other submission and commenting on them (which would be required anyway - two or three thorough comments on other works before you post an own idea), and then developing your ideas within the given world. If they are similar to what you had in mind in the beginning, that would please all. :)

Oh I also have some ideas for shaman magic (communicating with and eliciting the help of, ghosts, and a few other things) Shamency, vivomancy & necromancy could essentially be all the same magic. But because of reasons I would explain in the idea, they would be used very differently.

We do have shamanic magic already, (talk to Azhira , Nsiki) and it does not mingle with lifemagic - please don‘t turn all around what we have! ;)
18  Santharian World Development / Miscellaneous / Re: Eggs of the Earth on: 16 May 2009, 06:32:07
Hi Sivartius, as the cosmology mod I have to take your myth section apart, but don‘t worry,  not all things I question have to go. If Art is ok with some changes to myth and cosmology, I won‘t object. But then some ideas of you have to be integrated elsewhere as well, to not get lost. As it is quite some time, that I read all this stuff, I might have forgotten this or that part, please give me then a link to where you found it. Thanks :)


Geodes have about as many explanations as peoples who have encountered them.

Some elves say that when the world was split into twelve parts, there were some fragments which did not fit anywhere, and so folded in on themselves forming geodes.

Where did you read, that the world split in twelve parts? It sounds so new for me. How big where these geodes? For the world is quite huge, and you compare the „12“ parts with small stones, that is a bit off I think. Generally the idea is not bad to have them created in a very early process.

 The geodes were scattered throughout all the worlds. It is said that when Ava wakes, and all that now exists is dissolved, these piece of the worlds that are separate from all worlds will be the start of the next dream.

Again, where did you read that? Is that your own invention? If so, you need to make it more popular, announce it in the cosmology forum, that you would like to have that change. For it is not a minor thing you propose here. I checked the armageddon entry, and found nothing. In this case e.g., it would be necessary to add this to this entry.

 Some elven magicians say that as these are the effects of the greatest division of all, that they should be the greatest of all items in the practice of Ecua magic. Unfortunately, (or more likely fortunately,) none have yet managed to access their Ecua potential, which is said to exist outside of all worlds.

Ask a magical inclined person here, what he thinks, I have no idea. (Mina, Fox, others)

The Kuglimz people of Northern Sarvonia see the whole world as a geode holding the essence of the friend of Sur'tyan which Lier'tyan hid in the depths of the world, and which give this world life. His spirit or essence was drawn to the crystals, which supposedly still glowed with a light of their own from the time when the earth had been another Wuk'oriot like the stars before being snuffed by the unnamed darkness. From the crystals of the geode that was the world, his essence was conducted and spread out into the skin or surface of the world. There it gave life to all that is in the world. However, some of the unnamed darkness was left inside as well, and it was brought to the surface too. Where the two essences met, there were created the orcs, and all other evil things. Therefore, the Kuglimz people will not mine too deeply, for fear of cracking the skin of the world, dissipating the spirit of the Rouk'oirot, and freeing the darkness that they believe is still trapped there.

Interesting, but I‘m unsure if you not changed too much of the original belief as it is on the site. You might add, but you should not alter. You need to mentioned the name Minarot, the name for the world. The original is not too easy to understand either, but as I have understood it,

Eventually he came to an extinguished Wuk’oriot, and there was slain by the darkness. Sur’tyan his friend took charge of the forces, and Lier’tyan took the essence of Minarot and hid it deep within the cold world. His essence began a chain reaction that brought about light and life to the world.

there would be more dead Wuk’oriot of world size outside. So, is each then a geode, or just the one which held Minarot? Do we have a lot of dark stars (dead Wuk’oriot) out there? Could be. .....

Reading your stuff now the fifth time, I think it is not as bad as I thought first. But if you want to replace this last sentence of the original, you need to formulate and integrate your ideas a bit better, for the Kuglimz creation myths would have to be replaced as well.
"dissipating the spirit of the Rouk'oirot" - there is no spirit left, it was only the dead world and Minarot

Those who view this world as some sort of giant living thing like a great tree, tend to see geodes as seeds of new worlds.

Who does this? Please do not invent new tribes inclusive myths in a simple entry about some fine stones just to have this myth!

They believe that in times of terrible danger, the world tree creates seeds of itself and spreads them throughout the cosmos, so that they can form new worlds for life to grow on. But some are stuck in the world. These it is believed will only grow when the world ends. Because of this, many of these religions regard it as a great crime to break open a geode. They claim you are slaying an unborn world.

„many of these religions“... Please do only refer to those we actually have, as there are enough!

J'hoab an irreverent, satirical and slightly drunken, though very popular, if not with those in authority, poet, maintained that they were Ava's snores, but he was coincidentally struck by lightning the next day. Though it was ruled to be a completely coincidental occurrence, none have since espoused the same position.

Funny, but would this find its way in a serious compendium entry? And why should Ava‘s snores manifest tis way? Did he say this more often? For if he did this just a few times, it would not worth mentioning.

The orcish people, who see the whole world as the carcasses of those Gods who rebelled against their God, the "First Warrior", (except for them, who came from their God's arm which he lost in battle,) see geodes as the products of the voided bowls of his adversaries.  Thus geodes are not objects of great beauty, but of derision and disgust. They see them as they see the rest of the world, a source for them to get whatever they want from, and something to do what they want and have fun with. They think the other races fondness for geodes for their own sake is just another proof of how low and beneath orcs the other races are.

Ask our orc experts, if that is ok. And you mean bowels, right?
19  Santharian World Development / Races, Tribes and Clans / Re: Hellans on: 23 April 2009, 06:04:09
Hello ulver,

if you are going to try to design a mythical tribe/race (and get the ok to do so), then make sure to visit the cosmological board and its monster introduction thread :)  here
20  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The Old Curiosity Shop on: 12 April 2009, 17:41:00
I would have liked to get more structure into Santharian Magic, which was also meant eventually that we'd have menus that open up like in other parts of the site. My work there was somewhat stopped however, so I let go. We have too little to organize properly now as well.

Your lacking interest in magic was nor is very helpfull either. I wonder if you ever looked in this thread. As mainly interested in "Divine Magic" I'm not interested in finishing it  though, after some 'blow' (don't remember what it was) back then erased my enthusiasm with which I started this thread.
21  Santharian World Development / Races, Tribes and Clans / Re: Darkling Brownies - Nybelmar on: 02 April 2009, 18:43:17
Well, no, but these religious traditions are based on something which was experienced first, they don't come from nothing.

I'm sure you and that weird dwarf can come up with something ;)
22  Santharian World Development / Cosmology, Myths and Religions / Re: Moon oh moon, thou silver sphere.. on: 25 March 2009, 18:10:33
Out of fear? They do need the warmth of the sun nevertheless, so, what if the sun is jealous and abandons those who do not revere her as she wants to? Could be a northern answer to the year of darkness.
23  Santharian World Development / The Santharian Library / Re: Ulki'aiá (New Move) The divine account of Quáel'cáo on: 20 March 2009, 06:41:35
Mifer, I fear this language is wasted on me, you need to have native speakers to cherish  - or correct it.

I have just one theological question :

Such is the nature of mortal and sinful beings

You are assuming here, that the elves have the concept of "Sin". I fear though, that this is something very human, not elven, at least I think so.  And you are writing for an elf, so even if he is different, he has to stay elven.

Maybe you should discuss this with Wren, our elven specialist.
24  Santharian World Development / Cosmology, Myths and Religions / Re: Guideline on How to Design a Cult or Sect on: 03 March 2009, 08:04:59
    Azhira, two posts above I wrote, that I will implement it (that I'm about to do it) . I was still working while you added it - but you did not apply this list stuff, which is necessary to have a coherent stuff. This is the reason I took so long to update it. I'm still not content, for that
stuff still appears at the end. But well. But I edit now , though it is still not ok.
25  Santharian World Development / Cosmology, Myths and Religions / Re: Guideline on How to Design a Cult or Sect on: 03 March 2009, 06:19:06
I'm now integrating this one as nobody has objected so far.

 Don't talk to me! I'm fighting a monster!
26  Organization and General Discussions / Bell-Ringing - Notifications to Developers / Re: Artimidor! on: 03 March 2009, 06:13:44
Thanks :)

I dislike lists!
27  Organization and General Discussions / Bell-Ringing - Notifications to Developers / Re: Artimidor! on: 03 March 2009, 05:59:41
Could you please make me moderator of the cosmology forum for a while?  Me --> Takór

Would make things a little bit easier, though I still can't take up all the responsibility (for the next half year) which I think comes with it .
28  Santharian World Development / Cosmology, Myths and Religions / Guideline on How to Design a Cult or Sect on: 26 February 2009, 07:00:17
Azhira, forgive me for starting a new thread, but I overhauled yours so much, that I thought it was justified. As this is a difficult kind of entry, I thought the template should explain a bit more what is needed.

All of Azhira's first thread is incorporated, you can find it here.

Guidelines on How to Design a Cult or a Sect

As the understanding what a cult or sect is differs from reader to reader, a short Caelerethian definition shall be given first.
A „Cult“ is a particular system of religious as non-religious veneration of gods, special persons, items or (atheistic) ideas. The organisation as the members themselves can be denoted as „Cult“ . These people are bound together by the common veneration of  the same god/person/idea and in most cases have common rites, festivities, celebrations, though these can vary in some cases from region to region.

A Cult can be
- a mainstream cult like the „Cult of Queprur“, describing the practice of one of the gods related to the „Religion of the Twelve“ in Santharia
- a smaller cult only present in special locations or bound to a race (i.e. The Worshippers of Dalireen - Hobbits in Santharia)
- one of many cults of one religion (i.e. The Cult of Fire as one the Cults of Mari)
- a religious social group outside of the mainstream religions. (The True Vision Cult, are not off-shoots of current religions, but smaller groups of their own beliefs.)

A Sect is
- an off-shoot or group that has broken off from the main religion. These groups can be ones considered heretical or outcasts from the main religion, but are based, at least historically, on the main religion.

For both, Cult and Sect, the template can be applied, though some suggestions what to write might not be applicable on every submission


Give a brief description of the cult or sect, its territory and its people, is it a mainstream cult or a persecuted sect? The overview should be as short as possible, but give the reader sufficient information so that he does not need to read the whole entry.

Name (Optional)

If there is more to say about the name or if the cult has several names, give here a more detailed analysis, otherwise include the information in the overview.


This is the "where" section. Put in here in which region of the world of Caelereth this cult is common, how much it is spread in general. Are the members found in a specific city or remote location? Does the cult still exist or was it only an episode in history?

Belief Outlines

If you are writing about the belief of a main cult, a very short summary and a link to the main religion entry and to the god/goddess entry will suffice. If you are describing a new (or until now not yet existing) cult, this chapter should tell the reader everything of importance. If a variation of the mainstream religion or a sect is described, the differences to this main religion should be pointed out clearly.

People - Appearance and Mindset

Who are those people? Do they look different to the rest of the community? Have they different clothing (if any...), hairstyles, scarring/tattooing, etc? Again, mainstream ‚cultists‘ don‘t need to be described as thoroughly as special groups. The priests of the main religions have their own template, the clerics or representatives of smaller sects or cults have to be included though.

Differ the members of the cult from other ‚normal‘ people through their daily behaviour (not rites or ceremonies), do they have a different approach to daily life, are they set apart somehow? (Those who venerate Queprur mainly differ surely from worshippers of Dalireen)

Food (optional) - Do these people have restrictions, what food concerns? Are they avoiding meat or live primarily on it? Are special animals forbidden to eat, because they venerate it or are the symbol of their god?

Weapons (optional): Are these people famous for using a special weapon or are they preaching non-violence?

Coat of Arms - Symbols

Is there anything, a sign, a gesture, a symbol, a flag which would immediately associated with the cult or sect? Are there secret symbols or signs which are only used to communicate to others members, especially secret signs which show, that you are a member of that group?


Describe here the organization structure (if any) and the roles of the members and leadership.
How is this group ‚governed‘? Is it strictly hierarchical or are equals dealing with each other? Is it possible for every one to ‚climb the ladder‘ or is this restricted to certain persons only? How much is the single person included (or forced) into daily activities? Is he free to participate or are failures punished?

Worshiping Practices:

What kinds of regularly rituals, practices, gatherings does the cult/sect do? Are they linked to the governing structure?


Does this cult/sect celebrate any special holidays? Festivals? Sacrifices? How intense is the participation of the members? Are any excluded from special ‚events‘? Are these festivals commonly accepted or doubted by some?


What kinds of temples does the cult/sect worship in? Do they prefer a specific type of housing or environment? Temples and housing does not mean that they worship in a physical structure of stone/wood. If they worship outdoors in woods, on a mountain top or desert, describe that.

Trade-Production: (Optional)

Is there anything only this group creates, produces, is famous for? (see Cult of Fire)


What kinds of mythology surrounds the cult/sect? What sort of lore is associated with them?

Origin and History:

When did this cult or sect come into life? (It may not be possible to pin that down). How where it origins? A historical event? (A war, a natural catastrophe, a lightning)? Was there a special person or group who initiated it or became the focus of veneration? Did it split from a main stream religion and why? When did it split, was it tolerated at first, but persecuted later? How did it this cult or sect develop later? Was it an underground group for years? Did its members decrease and rise again? What where the reasons? How was its influence on religion and politics? And so on...


What makes this cult or sect important? In what ways are they famous (or infamous)? Where did it influence society?
Why  is it worth to get an entry in the compendium? Where lies the common interest in knowing more (about) it?
29  Santharian World Development / The Santharian Herbarium / Re: Forget-Me-Nuts. A twisted bush for the Osthemanger region. WIP on: 23 December 2008, 08:44:05
I am really surprised about the fact, that a barbaric, uneducated male orc from that Northern Lands is able to do such a nice, well-written entry which contains fine humour to such a degree, that I have to overthink my worldview.


Unfortunately, there is little modern research done into this potent hypnotic, as over time an accumulation of accidentally inhaled powdered shell invariably leads to researchers forgetting where they left their notes, or what the notes actually mean, and in severe cases, who they are and what they were doing in the first place!

30  Santharian World Development / Cosmology, Myths and Religions / Re: Religious Magic - Introduction on: 23 July 2008, 18:22:57

Art, I'm trying to get to this tomorrow.

But beforehand I would like to discuss this:

You write
"The subject shouldn't have an opinion" and somewhere else that you see the Compendium as a great encyclopaedia.

That was what Judy commented way up the thread:

If I had any quibbles with the entry, it would be with its tone - which is a bit too ... how can I say it?  ...dispassionate?  omniscient?  uninvolved?  Surely the author (Takor Salenar) must have his own beliefs which might show through here and there - even some fiery denunciations of the intolerance of certain clerics who don't tolerate alternative beliefs would be amusing and a nice indication of both character and attitude.

And that was my answer

To that "dispassionate" feeling - it is somehow intended, for he is quite old to have distance to the worldly affairs and  here he would try especially to be not "emotional" to be a proper counterpart to the secular mages who try to explain divine magic without gods, including the great Sage Federkiel whose opinion has such a great weight throughout Santharia. Maybe you like the Viarian magic (Santharian gods) better.. they are nearly done as well.

And of course Takór wants to be as objective as possible.

Well, I doubt, that the subject (=author, if I understood you correctly) can have  - or show - no opinion, generally.

But back to your idea of the encyclopaedia first. This is obviously how you see the compendium, maybe a shelf with up to 20, 40, 80, volumes, which contain all what we have on the site. Is this how you see it?

For I had the impression up to now, that the compendium is a huge collection of books which are all stored and looked after in the Great Library. Each new book is examined and maybe rejected, before it is copied (still by hand, but recently by the first book press as well) and put on a shelf.

The difference between the two views is now, that for a encyclopaedia the article writer have to try to describe it all from a position which is as objective as possible. However, even there your own opinion and conviction will show through.

The library concept allows more individual colouring of the articles or books. Of course they are looked at as well, but not necessarily censored for  being subjective. This way would allow more individual styles of writing as well (Not too much though)

I invented Takór for this purpose. The Shendar woman Talia could not write about Religious magic, but the methar Takór can, but how can he be as objective as you seem to want him? Then only an atheist could write this article, but not him, but an atheist (apart from that that this was not a common option in medieval times) write an article about a subject he cannot really understand?

Then I looked into wiki, but couldn't find anything relevant to the question how objective the medieval encyclopaedias were.

How could we solve this problems?


To the submission itself - I wanted to give all religious magic and related (druids) magic a home, but it was difficult and obviously I did not well. But with your helpful comments I give it another try.

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