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31  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: The Dunraich (State) of Thalambath (updated to Talia's requests) on: 29 April 2010, 18:20:36
I want to see you in my place, Azhira! The Thalambathians would have hided in the lava tubes!  buck

Fox, I'm not happy with the map, what I threw out was a first approach, quickly made, but not necessarily how I think now it should look like. I will get to it eventually and post it in the Truban/Brendulan Thread. But only after I'm through with your main submission. It is not important for the definition of the Thalambath province area

It's not a final map. I would just like to get an idea of what you would like. That is how I am looking at it from your initial design, and I welcome whatever changes you make so I can get an idea of what you are planning.

The point is, if we are to discuss territory, visual aids help.

Claiming something or not is not the only question here - I always wrote, emphasized, that the Ráhaz-Dáth is not accessible, out of its very own nature. I does not need the Shendar, to defend itself. Even the Shendar need special guides to get from one waterhole to the next. Any intruder will get lost and die, sooner or later. That is true not only for the central part, but for the mountains as well as for most parts of the Lands of Pain or the volcano, the open woodlands and the Jewels.  Of course single adventures will manage to go into those areas, maybe even a small, but strong military force. But nobody ever except a Shendar did cross the Rahaz-Dath from North to South. Even the cloud forest is not accessible due to its steep coastline (with a few exceptions)

So, how should anybody claim a land which he does not even know exists, or at least what exists behind that stretch of unforgiving sand?? Where no soldier of that land has ever been? Of course they can say, the next 200 or 2000 strals are mine also, but that could the neighboar say as well. So, who draws the map?

But they do know it exists. It has been charted and mapped. The map on the website is an "in-character" one. And who is to say, that no soldier of that land has been there, when that nation has existed for thousands of years? Thala (or even Varcopas or Strata) are not new, they are not baby nations. They've been living there for a very, very long time.

The people who draw the borders of the map are the leaders of the nations. The Thalambath leader, the Strata leader, the Shendar leader, the Strata leader, the Varcopas leader. They gather together, have a map, and carve things out and make treaties and purchase plots of land.

When I say claim, I do not mean just arbitrarily saying 'that's mine'. I mean the wheeling and dealing that is involved with it. Purchasing parts of the land from the person who owns it, offering parts of his own land that another side wants in exchange for parts another side has.

In one word: Politics.

Or, going "screw you guys, I hate politics" and declaring war, and fighting over it.

(and no, I am not disputing that the Shendar would not own pretty much all of the eastern desert. But the territory closest to Thala/Strata/Varc/Bardovas would be contested)

You say, The thala's would not mind, or could say anything if the Shendar cross their claimed territory. That is so contrary how you describe them : do you really think, they would allow a caravan with a lot of goods through their lands without asking at least for a considerable amout of tax? I see already now, that the Shen-Kha'si income will shrink dramatically! ;)

I did not say they would not mind. I said they would not be able to enforce it. They wouldn't LIKE Shendar in their borders. But in the middle of the dunes, strals away from any outpost, the Shendar don't have to worry. Thala certainly won't like it and will go after them if they get near a patrol or outpost, but the vast majority of the territory would not have either.

Please let me catch up a bit , go and tweak the Kayrhem meanwhile! If I'm writing and discussing too much right here, I will never get done, and a very busy time familywise lays ahead of me.

Yeah, I keep meaning to do that...

And really, I just want to get over the territory hurdle. That's our big problem and I think once we iron that out we are fine. That's why I'd really like to get something resolved there.

32  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: The Dunraich (State) of Thalambath (updated to Talia's requests) on: 29 April 2010, 09:33:24
How is there nothing medieval there? They have maps in Santharia, a whole map of the kingdom, so they would be doing the same thing I am... meeting together, and pointing out what areas they have, dividing it between themselves greedily. Making deals over who gets what, etc. I don't see how that isn't medieval.

An area can be claimed by the crown directly, without belonging to any duchy and therefore to another person/family. The Santhran could claim the centre of the Rahaz-Dath as his own. Or even all the lands (or most), the Shendar roam in, maybe to protect their style of life. Don't forget, that they no apolitcal group f wild nomads, but have their representative in the Counsil of the Hands. I don't know, what to do, if I should make duchies out of Shendar territory (the three subtribes) - the governmental structure would be there.

I did not dispute that it could not be claimed by the crown directly, just that for political reasons the crown would be hardpressed to keep that land all to himself when it would anger one of the constituents, especially when it is land like in the Rahaz'death where it is so far from the capital city and of little economic value. The crown would brush it off and say 'sure sure, you can have it, I don't want it', to appease them.

If you want to say, that the Santhran claims it, he needs to have a reason. You cannot just say he claims it arbitrarily. Because people will be angry (and I don't mean just Thalambath, but Varcopas and Strata as well), because their lands are kept smaller because of it.

And yes, I understand that the Shendar would be allowed lands of their own (and have been going under this assumption). The problem is, they are given an extremely large amount of land. Even assuming that the Shendar are allowed to say 'technically there are three sub-groups of Shendar, each should get an equal plot of land' (a reason that the crown might possibly go for, but would PISS OFF Thalambath, Strata, Varcopas, and Bardavos. Because it means the Shendar are getting special treatment by means of a very unstable loophole. Thalambath could claim that as well, unless we are doing away with having both Stratanians and Kaizranians in Thala).

And yes, they would have to defend the area, either by soldiers or by diplomacy. This is another problem the Shendar would have. Thalambath at the least would be willing to use military force to secure the lands nearest them. I'm not saying they're going to be able to enforce everything there (a desert warfare campaign is very hard to supply), but they would go to war over it unless the crown intervened. And even if the crown did, they might choose to secede if the crown supports the Shendar even though they already have essentially a monopoly on the land.

Yes though, I am not saying Varcopas or anyone would claim the Aj'nuvic lands if they don't even know how to get there. The mountains though, they could. Just the mountains would need to be settled via exterior means, IE combat elsewhere (where the winner is treated as gaining the mountain territory), or diplomacy.

So, what should that poor guy in New Santhala do, who has to draw that map? Be afraid to be either killed by an Thalambathian or Varcopasian assassin?

With the amount of land being given to the Shendar right now? Yes. It wouldn't be just one man though, it'd be a team of diplomats of the various constituents, possibly the Thanes, who are discussing it.

What we need to do here, IMO, Talia, is come up with a proper map with all the borders. Again, there's no such thing as 'free land'. Someone owns everything, and unless you can give me a good reason why the crown would say 'no one is allowed to settle in this area', then no land is 'free'. It needs to be divided up based on borders, with no land outside of those borders. Even in medieval times, government does not say 'that land doesn't exist just because we can't put a town on it'. Especially with the ancient governments that exist here. I could see if they were new governments, so would be deliberately placing limits on how much they're claiming, but with how old all of them are, and with how much money each has, they're going to be wheeling and dealing for every scrap.

Borders also do not mean the Shendar cannot travel where they will. The Thalambathians won't like it if the Shendar enter their borders, but unless they wander right up to a Thalambath outpost, Thala can't do anything about it. So even if Thala's territory covered the whole of the large area I had originally suggested, Shendar could wander through it unimpeded, and it would be no different than if the borders weren't there. The borders exist on a map, but not anywhere in person. No walls or anything.

This is how the map of both desert provinces looks to me, right now. It is based on the political spectrum map you gave me earlier. I've divided the Shendar into 4 'zones'. One for each of the three sub-tribes, and one that could be considered 'open to all Shendar'. This is mostly because you know better than me where each of the 3 dwell, so you'd have to clarify exactly who is where for me. This map is rough.

What we need, is for both of us to take a map, draw out where we see the borders (without leaving anything out), and discuss how much of the plot each side gets.

Essentially we need to map out the duchies, thinking about things not just from a singular city level.

Here's my current map based on your original spectrum map you posted on the first page of the thread. The main differences, aside from what is mentioned above, is that I gave Thala the Lands of Pain (which were 'unclaimed' in your spectrum map) and the Shendar the little area below the Madi Gradi Salt Pans (which were unclaimed). I also expanded the map to include the Scattersand Shoals, which Strata owns (as far as I know?).

Please let me know if there are any changes to this that you'd like to see, to put the map at your 'final version', then we can work on discussing what I would like to see changed.

33  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: The Dunraich (State) of Thalambath (updated to Talia's requests) on: 28 April 2010, 00:34:27
Fox..  *gives her a cup of fine tea and some Shendar sweets she has yet to develop*

 I might have expressed myself wrong. What I said about "grandness" did not refer to our discussions and the scaled down province of Thalambath. What I meant was more that what you initially wanted would never fit now, and maybe not in the past either. When I looked at your submission, I did not know where to start, what to skip, what to discuss. So I thought it might be a better way to think about how the dunraich would have looked back during the time of its glory, to decide when a certain town/area could have been inhabited, or why not.

I've been going by the present, and gradually expand 'downwards' into history. Because if we think about the details of the history now, it will take forever to get this done. I have tried to be vague enough while still hinting that there was a 'greater past' that isn't here anymore, but is still attempted to be emulated by the way it conducts itself.

While you do not know where to start in replying to the entry, I do not know where to start in considering what exactly you have a problem with in terms of 'grandness'. I would need specific examples of what you do not like for me to give any direct comments on this.

I asked myself, if not claimed areas would make sense. But it is one thing, a power claiming a territory, another, if this is accepted by the "authorities". So Thalambath might well claim the golden reach, but what if this claim is not accepted in New Santhala? Then it will not go into the  compendium. But I have not made up my mind anyway. I feel, that if anyone claims a territory, it is somehow 'violated'. Its less... whatever.. than before. But that may only be my own weird opinion.

You compare the Rahaz-Dath a lot with more Northern areas, but I think you cannot, for up there are, apart from a few wild mountain ranges, all the area is inhabited, and exactly that I wanted to avoid. I want a big part of it unknown to most people, apart from the Shendar, and even from them. They would not claim anything as theirs, but if another power does it, they of course will do it also.

If this land is considered unclaimed by the duchy, and therefore unclaimed by the province, then the Rahaz'dath desert is, in fact, not a part of the Santharian Kingdom. For the highest levels of government to be able to say 'we own this', then it must be distributed amongst the lower levels. New Santhala would say 'we own the whole Truban province'. Therefore, they have already 'claimed' the Rahaz'dath desert. As long as it is considered a portion of the Truban province, it is already claimed by the higher levels of government. The higher levels of government, then, would distribute that land amongst the lower levels. Land unclaimed by the kingdom would fall outside the kingdom. Land claimed by the kingdom would be divided up between the kingdom's constituents.

If I were to have claim to these areas, they would be no more populated than they are now. Just because I claim an area, does not mean I want to change your environment. I don't. I've been trying to respect it, I really have. It just means I, from my government standpoint, want to be able to draw bigger borders (namely, borders that reach each other, with nothing 'empty' in the middle). Nothing else. I am not trying to ruin anything you have designed. The Shendar can roam whereever they want, regardless of where the borders are drawn. Thalambath claiming the land does not put any restrictions on them.

Ultimately, I relate to the land from a government standpoint, while you relate to it from a Shendar standpoint. In my view, I see the Santharian government owning everything from the Tandala Mountains to the Burning Sea. All the land, every mountain range, lake, and desert. They then divide that land between the provinces. Who divide that land between the duchies. Who divide that land between the local lords. From a government standpoint, there is no room for a free land. The only free land is a land that the government (which still owns it) has explicitly ruled to be 'free' for some legitimate reason. Elven lands, for instance, are on their own, but it's because the government allows the elves to control that land.

You see it from the Shendar standpoint, which seems to me to be "you only 'own' where you live. You put down an abode here, it is yours, until you move, then it is free again." This works for the Shendar. If the Shendar wish to see it this way, great. The borders of other duchies wouldn't even bother them because they don't see things in that light. They would cross borders and continue to wander without care.

These two systems are incompatible on the same map. From a government standpoint, I cannot abide the thought of land that is 'free'. Free land is ripe for the taking. The only place your border should stop is at another country's borders. And even then, there are armies and diplomacy to get around that little hurdle. Point is, a government does not see any land as free. It might establish land as being 'not fit for settlement/travel', but it would still own the land.

When I look at a nation map, I see it based on land ownership. When you look at a map, you see it as 'the people only live here, here, and here'. This is where the big problem between us is in terms of understanding one another. While you see tiny red circles of population, I see large red circles of bordership, where there is no such thing as 'empty' land. It might be physically empty, yes. It might even be a giant chasm that leads straight to the other side of the planet for all I care. But my red circle would still cover it. :)

I think, the correct version of the last paragraph would be this, (though for me 'state' is not the same as 'province', but always has the ring of sovereignty without any higher power above):

That's because you're from Europe. In the US, a state is essentially a province. We have the central government, and each individual state that is part of the government, with their own state governments. Those governments have little real power beyond managing themselves, and many of their laws are determined by the central government. In the US, state is essentially 'a portion of a larger country'. ;)

Would it be allowed to speak of 'Kingdom' for an Santharian Province? Was that not discouraged when Santhros united the lands, why are then Thanes not Kings under the Santhran? So an official entry for the compendium should use the proper names, and not those the people use. Even if your papers have it on their headings. I hope I made myself a bit more understandable.

This would be fine. I can alter it to mention more specifically that in the larger kingdom, their titles are referred to by the normal Santharian names. But to keep this entry culturally local (which I believe the various entries are trying to show), it will still largely refer to them by their local names, just as when we mention the Tristin in entries we call it a Tristin, not a Thane. I'll just make it more clear that all of the titles are specifically linked with the proper Santharian ones.

dunes - Dünen --> Dunraich - empire of dunes?

Wow. It was not intended to be that, but it fits perfectly, lol.
34  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: The Dunraich (State) of Thalambath (updated to Talia's requests) on: 27 April 2010, 20:47:09
First off, I already consider it to have been once a grander empire but now only a remnant. This will be more apparent in the history, but I consider it to be far weaker than it used to be. It is gaining power again, as you said, but now it has to struggle against the new higher-levels of government that serve to keep it in check.

The thing I don't understand is why empty land cannot be claimed as territory, with only minor outposts, and not still be considered untamed and wild. I already shrunk it down to be a lot smaller, and it is extremely small compared to other duchies in Santharia. I do not understand why Truban and Brendolan must have these extremely tiny duchies with huge huge tracts of unclaimed land (governments do not leave land unclaimed, even if they have no settlements there, they claim it for the political edge it gives them) while every other province gets these large duchies (even when those duchies include mountains, which would be no different from vast tracts of desert, yet are claimed anyway by those duchies). I'm assuming the main problem you have still is in it claiming the Lands of Pain, but as I have said, these areas are still pretty much empty. Sure I have an outpost or two, but these are very small, and do not take away from the rest of it, which is empty and wild.

The Sahara Desert is divided up between many nations in Africa (at least as far as I know), does that mean it isn't a wild, untamed, empty desert? No, the lands are claimed, but nothing lives there. That's all I'm asking for here.

What we have right now is a compromise, IMO. The area immediately south of the volcano, with a little tiny bit around the coast that shrinks and grows based on political conditions (we can say it is at a very shrunken level in today's world), and the Lands of Pain, which are essentially empty, claimed more for religious and political reasons than anything else.

I really don't see what's so wrong with the following image:

The red area is the only really populated area, and that's the same area you've given me to work with before. The dark red/brown is claimed, but not populated. It is still wild and untamed, just like you want it to be. I consider this to be a compromise already, considering it is still smaller than I wanted (and far smaller than any duchy outside of Truban). Especially since you gave me permission to claim it in PMs.

As far as matching Strata... I personally believe you gave Strata too little as well. And Varcopas. Hence why in my first map design I gave them all equally larger lands. I think Truban/Brendolan have far too much Shendar/unclaimed lands. But I won't get into that debate again, as we already had it and I submitted.

And I do treat it as a duchy (I consider state and duchy to be interchangeable terms, personally). Everything I've read on the site implies that many of the provinces kept their old names, traditions, and internal political structures. Now, Thalambath might be a bit more 'exotic' than other provinces, but considering how far south it is, I think this is appropriate. Not only are the lands wild, but the governments have little real oversight as well. Arti supported this in reply to your other thread, where he said that it varies 'considerably' from province to province, and is based on local customs (even within duchies, when you consider the elves who have equally exotic government systems). What I write is Thalambath's local customs.

Yes the ranks and titles were renamed on interactions with foreign peoples, but they can still use the old names in their own region. The more recent Ranks and Titles entry supports this. (for example: "Often Thanes also have additional titles related to the history or the geographical position of the province like Marshal in Nermeran, Tristin in Truban or Steward in the province of Sanguia")

"the historical and regional differences and developments of course still reflect as well in specific titles and powers of regional leaders, who still may exert their independence from the King to a certain degree. The actual power constellations compared to the theoretical definitions therefore are much more intricate and complicated, but still they operate to a vast degree in the layed out confines." - Santharian Ranks and Titles entry

This is what I have based my writing here on from the start. Now, what I can do is more thoroughly clarify that how the current hierarchy fits in with the Santharian government (which I believe it does, pretty much all of my ranks can be tied into same system as any other province, they just have some differences in the way the power is handled, which is, again, supported in the Ranks and Titles entry. There is even a still unfinished 'Regional Ranks and Titles' section that, judging from the name, is supposed to show the differences between the various cultures in how they realize the same standard system.

But they still have this system:

Thane (the Royal Viseur, the Seven serve more as an advisory council to the Thane)
Duke (the Royal Viseur technically, the Exarch in practice)
Graven (Vesel-Viseurs)
Privileged Nobility (the Pryus' at the higher levels, smaller business owners beneath them)

While there is a bit of a difference in the way power is handled, it still fits into the Santharian ranking system on a basic level. There are specific differences in the way they are handled, but both entries give evidence to support the viability of this.

I did not want another obviously feudal state of which we already have so many of (as I consider Thalambath's government to be one of its most interesting parts), just as you don't want the Rahaz'Dath to be tamed and civilized (which I believe I have acquiesced to by already giving Thalambath a lot less land when compared to any other province's duchies). The system allows for cultural differences in the way power is handled, so I don't believe I have done anything wrong in this regard. As I said, what I can do is clarify more specifically how these differences tie into the standard high level Santharian structure.

Another thing I could do, if you wish, is to give the Vesal-Viseurs more power than they currently have. Right now they don't really have the power to distribute the land (rather they are allowed to delegate that power but have no real say in 'how' it gets distributed). They are the ones that are seemingly the most outside of the system, and I could change that if you wished, to give them more power over their lands.

Another thing I could change is how the Royal Viseur is chosen. I could perhaps give Varcopas and Strata more say in this, but I am unsure how at this moment. The more say those two have, however, the less power Thalambath will allow the Royal Viseur. Alternatively, I could recreate the Tristin rank, which stands over the Royal Viseur in terms of provincial government, relegating the Royal Viseur to more of a proper 'duke' role. The Tristin, however, would not be allowed too much internal power (which I believe Thalambath would be able to enforce, as they do have dominance right now).

And yes, raich was derived from the German reich, as I was designing Thalambath with a lot of Nazi Germany influences and I've always loved the way 'reich' sounded. Dun + reich just sounded cool, I don't know what dun/dunen means in German. Quite a few of the people names also are a blend between German-sounding and Egyptian-sounding names.
35  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: Life Magic Rewrite on: 01 April 2010, 06:35:40
Just a bump, I'm going to try to finally get to my comments to this by this weekend. :)
36  Santharian World Development / People of the World of Caelereth / Re: Ezorakk'lagdan, Scourge of the North on: 09 March 2010, 20:43:13
I'm really sorry Azhira. I've been really distracted around here lately and when I do get time for Santharia, it usually goes to catching up with the RP side of things.

I'd still be willing to do this, eventually, if you'd want to wait. But, I can't promise anything soon, so if you want it done sooner rather than later, then you'd have to do it without me. I'd still like to do it, just I can't say how soon it would be.

37  Santharian World Development / Santharian Artists Workshop and Resources / Re: Norong Sorno Volcano picture on: 12 February 2010, 04:57:39
Alright. Seeker can scratch my suggestion then.

38  Santharian World Development / Santharian Artists Workshop and Resources / Re: The Imp Creature Pic on: 12 February 2010, 04:08:50
Cool picture. :) Though I have to agree with Talia, right now the imp looks less detailed than the bookcases and the books themselves.

Btw, your "introduction to the picture" indicates that this is a Thalambath library, but I'm not sure if that's intended to be the case for the actual picture. If it *is* the Thalambath library, then right now it looks too much like the inside of a more European-flavoured stone castle. I am not sure if your intent was something specific, or if you specifically wanted it to be generic.

So of course, the picture works fine like that, but if you actually want it to depict a Thalambathian library, then there will need to adjustments in that area (I can give suggestions once I get confirmation on that point). Primarily just the stonework, the bookcases and so on are fine. Again, this is only if you choose to actually make it a picture of a Thala library, rather than something that can fit as any generic medieval library.

Keeping it generic makes it work better for Santhworld of course.

39  Santharian World Development / Santharian Artists Workshop and Resources / Re: Norong Sorno Volcano picture on: 12 February 2010, 04:00:11
*Edit: Ignore this suggestion, due to Talia's request.

If I could make one additional suggestion as well...

From my not-yet-finished Dunraich of Thalambath entry:

* The Golden Reach
The Golden Reach is the name of the dunes that lie to the east of the Norong’Sorno volcano and before the Makadi Gadi Salt Pans, running from the edge of the Nirmenith Mountains to the Yar’dangs. Though not entirely under Thalambath’s control, as Shendar exert their claims over the territory, bigger or smaller parts of it have occasionally fallen under the Dunraich’s dominion over the centuries. They are rich golden plains, with little apart from sand and dust. However, one can find Thalambathian roads here, which, depending on the political climate of the time, are swept and pressed in order to allow caravans to cross the desert. Every stral along the side of the road are large stone pillars reaching into the sky, which provide guides in case the roads have been covered by a sandstorm.

The Golden Reach would be the stretch of sand between the oasis and the volcano. While the 'roads' mentioned here would not be visible (and only would be maintained in the areas closer to T and the Norong, don't freak out, Talia ;)), the pillars would still be visible every stral of distance. I am not sure how visible they will be considering how far away we are, but something to consider. :)
40  Organization and General Discussions / Announcements and Web Design / Re: Special Site Update 24-02-2010: Awards 2009 on: 06 February 2010, 18:22:06
Thanks for doing this update and congrats to everyone!

Arti, noticed a couple of problems when I double-checked your team member page updates. I've listed them below. For the most part, it's just the small version of the awards that is showing up as a broken link, but a few other things are off as well.

Seeker - Award images don't show
Azhira - Browser page title says 'The Webmaster Artimidor Federkiel' rather than the intended one for Azhira. 09 Places Award image doesn't show.
Seth - 09 Best of Rest and Bestiary Award images don't show
Artimidor - 09 Medal of Meritorious Service image doesn't show
Grinch - 09 Best Innovation Award doesn't show
Altario - 09 Best Masterwork and Best Race/Tribe Awards don't show
Decipher - 09 Best People Award doesn't show
Fox - No dev awards link, 09 Places Award doesn't show
Coren - 09 Best Magic Award doesn't show
Alysse - 09 Best Music Award doesn't show
Gean - Missing 09 Best Music 2 Award laudation (on main page as well)
Rookie - Missing 09 Misc Award (picture and text)
41  Santharian World Development / Races, Tribes and Clans / Re: WIP: The Kaizranian Men (Thalambathians) on: 06 February 2010, 12:23:53
I will try to make it more clear when I do my edits. :)
42  Santharian World Development / Races, Tribes and Clans / Re: WIP: The Kaizranian Men (Thalambathians) on: 06 February 2010, 02:45:16
It's very isolationist, yes, but what I try and keep in mind when writing things is the amount of time that has transpired. I don't like to gloss over the fact that this culture has existed for thousands of years, longer than most on Earth. It has gone through political and cultural upheavals, civil wars and revolutions, that, while some of that basic, original culture that is at its core remains and thrives, many elements have been whittled away or drastically altered by the mere passage of time. Even if such marriages have only been existing for several hundred years (which is a very short time in Santharian time), that is plenty of time for a new class and subculture to arise.

At some points, it will be more isolationist, at others it won't be. It depends on the political climate, and there is a lot of time for many vibrant changes to occur.

It is also long enough that some of the first marriages, from hundreds of years ago, will have lead to very integrated families that do not ever recall being from an original Stratanian ancestor, yet that original ancestor has essentially marked their family line permanently.

I don't want to make a static culture, one that is oddly the same now as it was 5000 years ago. I want one that grows and evolves (even devolves). It might even be, that such marriages are completely forbidden now (it isn't, but as an example). But, that would not discount that there might have been a time, under a ruler or two, were there was greater freedom for foreigners. And while those original foreigners are long dead, their ancestry still remains, and, again, the family bloodlines suffer for that in the eras when their 'bad blood' is no longer as accepted.

As for before Strata was founded, I'm not sure what you're getting at there, as I haven't ever said anything about there being foreigners before then (the only time I mention immigrants from Strata/Varcopas, I am referring to post-Milkengradian-Expedition, as Thalambath opened its borders in 610 b.S.). Aside from the rare trader, traveler, or Shendar who was willing to brave the Dunraich, there were nearly no foreigners up until the time that Thalambath officially opened its borders in 610 b.S. And that was still a very long time ago from today, more than a thousand years.

A lot of the Stratanian arc was to give a reason why people call Thalambathians 'Stratanians'. Plus, when I was writing Thalambath, you had said that you did not want the Kaizranian bloodline to be very prominent anymore, so I had to make it so that they were rather rare and thus most of the society needed to be of Stratanian blood somehow.

If you'd prefer, I can drastically reduce it so that the majority of the occupants are Kaizranian (90% at least), though there will still be some family lines that have married foreigners.

You do make a good point about the religion though. I will certainly look into making a religion clash between Thalambath's traditional religion as well as the mainstream Santharian one, which would have become a big issue after Thalambath opened its borders.

To summarize:

Prior to 610 b.S., there was 99.9999% Kaizranians in the Dunraich of Thalambath. There was less than .1% foreigners.

After 610 b.S., there was an influx, due to Thalambath taking over the trade and capital city role during Strata's collapse. This is when any new subcultures that I have been referring to would have arisen.

In the current era, 1600+ a.S., Thalambath is not as powerful at trading as it was when it immediately opened, and Strata has taken over that role again. Kaizranians are again more isolationist, due to some (fairly) recent revolutions. What inlays the new subcultures and foreigners might have made are taking a step back as more traditional, racist philosophies are being espoused again.
43  Santharian World Development / Races, Tribes and Clans / Re: WIP: The Kaizranian Men (Thalambathians) on: 05 February 2010, 20:22:48
Oh well, doesn't matter, I'll try to do the other on Monday.

Hope you weren't taking my comment that seriously, Talia. I don't mind which you go over first. :)

44  Santharian World Development / Races, Tribes and Clans / Re: WIP: The Kaizranian Men (Thalambathians) on: 03 February 2010, 23:43:38
Oh Talia, you picked the one that is still unfinished instead of the one that is!  grin

Maybe we should now decide to change this, or at least internally add some information somewhere. The name „Stratanians“ comes from the time, when Strata was the capital. We have to dive into history and decide, when this happened. The true Stratanians are only the inhabitants of Strata. For Varcopas may be not as isolationistic, but they don‘t like either, to be called „Stratanians“, they just see it a bit more relaxed. So, basically, Stratania is composed of three major cities, Thalambath and the land around it, Strata and Varcopas and the area which is influenced by Varcopas. Maybe I should describe it in the (coming) Truban entry, that the term Stratanians are nearly obsolet now, for Truban excists mainly of three big cities. I‘m thinking about adding Uderza to Brendulan (only the last 300?? Years), so not much else is left. The Shendar area will be divided, only the Shen Siuu will ,belong‘ to Truban.

Essence: Could you change that middle sentence „ the Kaizranian people are distinct from their neighbours by culture if not by appearance.“ somehow, that reflects, that infact only the citizens of Strata are „Stratanians“? Though of course the Kaizans will stand out more than e.g. The Varcopasians.  

Okay, I will change it. I wouldn't mind if we changed that, it's been a bit hard to work around.

How did you imagine those ,fertile grounds‘? You have not only that, but probably the most water as well. So it is not as harsh as you describe it. The lands of pain are not really ,mastered‘ (nobody can), even if you count it to their territory.

Any desert is harsh. ;) And no, the Lands of Pain are not *really* mastered. That doesn't mean the Thalambathians don't *think* they've mastered the desert. ;) That statement was not fact, but their belief.

This would not be such a big problem, if you could write as a member of that tribe (as you=Fox are in your heart, though Fox as a char might not be from there - don‘t know!!). But if you are writing as Fox, the neutral compediumwriter, that might have to sound different, as the area there isn‘t as harsh. Somebody else would describe it a bit different, which I would have no problems with.

Yes, Fox is a Thalambathian. I would think that any desert would be harsh, but if you feel necessary I can remove that line. Besides, it's referring more to the Rahaz'dath as a whole, rather than just the Thalambathian area.

Only the Shen Siuu have a slightly darker appearance, but not as dark as you describe them here:
So, your first sentence needs to be changed. I‘m not so sure about the Thairans (from Shan‘Thai) and other tribes either, maybe you look for that started description (Artemis)


As you are mostly speaking about the Rahaz-Dath - there are no other desert tribes - the Stratanian don‘t count as tribe, or do they? And the Shendar are not ,sturdy‘ !

The Shendar aren't? They are nomads that wander the desert, and your entry for them describes them as rather physical. Sturdy in this case does not mean, like a dwarf, but more strong of limb and constitution, which I would assume the Shendar are.

Maybe you should give them a more distict eyecolour? Less grey (as the more northern Shendar have), but more shades of brown, a light brown, the yellow eyes of Avatar, a yellow-green with golden spots. Something strange!

I don't want something that strange. :P But I can do more shades of brown and yellow.

Where are the tattoos, in the face? Elsewhere?

On the face, on the scalp if shaved, on the arms and body, etc. I will mention the locations next time I edit.

What kind of powder, a brown one, a white one (no, black is beautiful, right?), so a blackish one?

Generally it will be a light to dark brownish, to match the individual's skin tone.

We need to discuss the area again in an extra thread. What you have above is still what you intended in the beginning, right?

No, what I have above is based on what we agreed on (though the map is slightly wrong in the northern regions).

The Shendar have been there already during the empire of Astar‘Nuvic, I think. I don‘t want to check timetables now though, otherwise I don‘t get this done today. I think this depends, at which time we want to have the big crash, the very big one ;)
And what means ,arriving‘ ? From where? Sure, they can‘t be there, when the volcano formed. But maybe tell, that some had fled to the grasslands in the east, or where gathering form the area which is now the Yar‘dangs (which has been a settlement of the humans also)

Hm? One of your entry states that when the Shendar came, Thalambath already existed. Or maybe it was at the part where the Shendar wanted to settle down. I would need to double-check.

Is this the case with all those who have to do the lowers works also, or the farmers in the east etc? Or is it just a higher percentage than elsewhere?

It is mostly the case with the lower class in populated areas. In more rural towns, I suppose there might not be as much education. But even then, the culture will still make them a bit more restrictive than other cultures.

Slavery is forbidden in Santharia, but the Santhros is far away. Do they have their slaves openly, or are they hiding this to an extent?

Woops, that mention of slavery should have been specifying 'when they had slaves'. They don't have them anymore officially, though certain people in society are practically slaves in their treatment.

Why would the Kaizranians mix their language with those of the few settlers form the North?
I think, that it could be an entirely different language. As different as English and Chinese (not just like English and German). BUT, I would assume, that it was not a purely human language, but that there might have been a language which had all three elements in it, human, dwarven and elven. Each race might have sopken its own dialect, but I think they have developed a common ,high‘ language. However, that dwarven and elven language might not have been Styrash or Thergerhim, but something else.

Maybe they are then proud not to have the only true „human“ language, but the true cosmopolite one.

Edit: After having read the later parts, I would say, that there emerged a 'lower 'language, a mixture of the old one and the newer , Stratanian settlers. But I think they would look down on it!

Languages always mix when they begin interacting. So it depends on the dialect being used. The oldest dialect is completely Kaizranian. It's the newer, more modern one that has more Tharian in it. This is a natural result of mingling cultures.

And no, they would not have been proud of a cosmopolitan language. Even if it was used by all three, the Kaizranians would today believe that it was developed solely by humans.

And the 'mixed' dialect would have started as a lower language, but in the modern time (well, a few hundred years ago, it is now a dead language), the common dialect is used by all except in the most sacred of songs/texts.

Tiles? Do you rival Uderza?

No, they can make tiles without rivaling uderza. :P

What would fit somehow, at least as a game for special occasions, or for your pits, is that Aztekian play, where you had to hit a ball with your knee and bring it through a hole high above somewhere on a wall. With the loser having to die... Or it could have been a way for the winner to gain lost respect in the society back?

A game where the loser has to die would be reserved for the amusement of the higher class at the pits. I could potentially put one there, when I write the Ankhat city entry, which will go into more depth on that. I just wanted to give only a few examples here.

Why would they have chosen Statanian wifes? Is ,breeding‘ an acceptable word for humans?

Why wouldn't they? However much culture might try to indoctrinate people, there will be those who defy it and fall in love regardless of what the system wants. Considering how long it has been, there has been plenty of time for this over the centuries. And yes, breeding would be an acceptable word for humans IMO.

Hmm, why and when were Stratanians allowed into the city? The Stratanians came relatively late, at a time, when Thalambath and Varcopas were already firmly settled. I would assume, that they always have been very hostile towards foreigners. Why did they allow others to settle in their city in the first place? Before Strata was founded?

Why and when would most likely be in a few small incidents prior to the opening of the trade borders, and then much more after the trade borders were opened when Strata's economy collapsed. So no, definitely not before. Much later.

Very interesting!
Two proposals. Don‘t call it Netherworld, this word is already taken by other „ideas“ . Maybe Mirrorworld? Soullieu? And I would find it cool, if they would assume, that this soulworld is on the other side of the disk. I‘m not sure. When we here in Caelereth speak of „disk“, if only the upper half is meant or the whole. You could use for that solworld the lower half.

The dark portal as the entrance to a not so nice place is fine, but maybe you should add, that the South - Aeruillin, is the only place where the Void can be encountered by „foot“, not ship.

Sure, I can call it something else.

But yes, it would be very cold. The idea is that it is the exact opposite of life, and to the Thalambathians, heat symbolizes life. The Thalambathians do not necessarily believe that it is an 'underworld' that's literallyunder the disk, so to speak. More of a kind of alternate relality.

Here definitely a picture would be good! Or an extra submission which explains how to wear one! It is a bit lengthy and slightly boring, because imaging it is very hard. In the entry can't be a hint to Roman clothing;) Maybe you should do an extra submission with pictures!


45  Santharian World Development / Santharian Artists Workshop and Resources / Re: Norong Sorno Volcano picture on: 29 January 2010, 22:32:30
The black are shadows. The rest of the white makes them look like marble statues to me.

At the very least add colour variation to the clothes, like uderzan blue for some small parts. Maybe one with their hood off (their heads are white) so the dark hair is visible.

Just something to make them look not so pristine and stone-cut.

I'm pretty sure Seeker has a larger version he works with than what he is posting for us, Talia, so colouring would not be as pixelated as your example shows.
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