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[Winlok]

Humans start learning weaving at age 10, while elves start learning weaving at age 40. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Don't elves have a more magical inclination?

[Xarl]

I'll reply for Tarq on this, because (I think at least) the answer's obvious. Age 40 elves are roughly equivalent to age 10 humans, social development-wise, and the Weavers would probably have a similar system for other races. (Dwarves at 20... Basically 1/10th of full potential age.)

I wonder... Could Weaving have any potential for enchantment? For example: A weaver weaves a flat area-affect spell, (for example, a Mind Shield spell) and then wraps it around something. (for example, a helmet.) The thing would have the effect of the spell in it. (For example, the wearer of the helm is immune to psychic tampering or attacks.) The spell (ideas for limits) would only function if invoked, would fall apart after a week or so, would explode if used improperly... you figure it out.

[Tarquet Galbar]

Xarl's right on one thing. While Elves have more magical inclination, if humans started at age 40 they'd be 60 by the end of their training. You have to think of it that way. 60 Isn't much for an elf, but it's a lot for a human.

As for the part of enchantments. Have you not been reading what I posted earlier? I said first off htat one of the things Weavers could do was enchant things for money. Simply Weave the magic into whatever item it is they want to be enchanted. But no, it wouldn't wear out, because it's like the magic becomes part of the item and will only become inactive if the item is broken, or if a spell form someone stronger than the Weaver dispells it. It's also possible for another Weaver to Unweave the magic, but this is rarely done. Just think of it this way: You have a suit of armor, but it's very thin. You have to money, so you take it to a blacksmith and get it reinforced with another plate or so covering of metal. That metal wouldn't just fall off, if it's melted on there by the blacksmith, now would it?
One thing, though, Weavers don't really think in terms of spells. They simply manipulate the magic to become what they want. While human spells do the same, it's with a bit more customization if you're a Weaver. This is why they love to study magic so much, to figure out the mechanics of it all.

"Shut It!"-Ancient Illinoisian Saying

[Xarl]

Whoops, I apologize. I like the idea. Maybe after I get rid of Xarl (Don't worry, it'll be a while) I'll be a Weaver.

[Tarquet Galbar]

Mentor- Those Weavers who have agreed to stay and teach the Initiates who come to the Temple each year. Their jobs are sometimes the hardest, and they are the Weavers who get the least renown among the Weavers. However, being a Mentor come with some very nice benefits. Mentors usually have the most time to study magic. They also are the ones who compile most of the information on the subject.

Scribes- The ones who take the information compiled by Mentors and others and write it down into books. They also do a nice bit of compiling information themselves. They spend almost all their time inside, writing and weaving magic into the books they love so much.

Caretakers- The Caretakers are those who keep the Temple in it's nice condition. They reweave anything that's becoming unstable, maintain the meditation gardens, the Library, and all places within the Temple, except for the Chamber of Masters, which none are allowed to enter but the Masters.

Gaurdians- Weavers who use their time to make sure none but those invited to the Temple enter. They live in the mountains which surround the Temple, often loners. Any who encounter them may live to tell the tale, but they won't remember it. They will wake up at the foot of the mountains, a day or two gone from memory. Gaurdians have eyes all over the mountains, or so it's said, like the Masters have eyes all over the world.

Justidynes- The law enforcers of the Weavers. They are told by the Masters if any break the Laws and where they are. The Justidynes are masters at walking the Ancient Ways, one of the Great Weavings. This is how they journey from the Temple to wherever they need.

Gatekeepers- They gaurd the Gates of the Ancient Ways which allow Weavers to walk from the Temple to one of the Sister Gates within seconds. They gaurd the Gates at the Temple as well as the Sister Gates.

Masters- The Masters of Weaving. They are extremely powerful but very secretive. None know whether they are immortal, or if they induct a new Master every time one dies. There are three Masters at a time and they are the ones who organize everything at the Temple.

"Shut It!"-Ancient Illinoisian Saying

[Tarquet Galbar]

Great Weavings- The magic Weavings which are believed to date back to the founding of the Weavers. It is said that when those who had the talent of Weaving first came together they wove five great things.

The Gates and Ancient Ways- At the Temple there are seven Gates. Each Gate leads to a Sister GAte at a different location. These Gates are connected by something called the Ancient Ways. It is believed that it is a system of paths which lead wherever magic is, and have simply been pulled together at different ends. Even today doorways can be woven to walk the Ancient Ways which dont' have Gates, however it takes eight hours to perform this, and a good deal of energy. The Justidynes are the best at using these Ways.

The Great Protector- The thing which protects the Temple from non-Weavers. This makes it invisible, and if anyone slips past the Gaurdians then it will negate any magic they hold. The Masters are said to perform a ceremony to maintain it once every fifty years. Many Weavers go out to the place were the Protector connects to the ground and touch it, saying it gives them visions.

Delonaire- A legendary city which is totally made of woven magic. It is said that there used to be a Gate and a path on the Ancient Ways which led you to it, but the city is now lost. Some doubt, at first, theat it existed, but there are great tapestries in the Temple which depict the city in all of it's glory. It is believed that the Old Weavers still inhabit the city.

The Tablets of Weaving- Great stone tablets which are set in the mountains around the Temple. They seemed ot be carved form the mountains themselves, but it is said in the Book of Weaving that the words were woven into the rock. They tell the story of the Old Weavers and the day when those with the talent were brought together.

The Shrine of Meditation- An underground shrine which houses one of the Sister Gates. It has many chambers under the ground which are ideal for meditation. There is no enterance form above ground and its location protected by the magic the Old Weavers put into the large chamber known as the Shrine which is the deepest it extends to. Many Weavers come to gather here, exchanging thoughts, papers, beliefs, and stories, as well  as to meditate. Caretakers from the Temple also help to run and maintain this place.

Well I had a creative streak and drew all of this up. How does everyone like it?

"Shut It!"-Ancient Illinoisian Saying

[Theodorus Holzman]

Well, this really sounds good to me. But I've a few questions: First:What do Weavers do in times of War. I mean: the Weavers live all over the world as you told (you did tell that, didn't you?) and when a war starts, it's likely that they'll be recruted and put against eachother and forced to use their skills. Or do they all gather at the Temple then?
Second: Where exactly is the Temple located and do other Magicians have the vaguest idea where it is?
Third: Have Weavers ever been involved in a Magic war. There have been so many "evil sorcerers/mages" that at least one of them should have made an attempt to conquer the Weavers' Temple in order to wipe them out, because he sees them as a threat, or to enslave them.

Theodorus

[Tarquet Galbar]

Very nice questions, and I have all the answers.
Yes, Weavers do live all over the world. They can easily get back to the Temple using one of the Gates, so it's not much of a problem. Notice that in the Laws, or what I have made up already, there is nothign that says Weavers have to be nice to eachother. While fighting, that's serious fighting, different from sparing, is not allowed in the Temple, the Masters know that not everyone likes everyone else and that war could break out. However, Weavers tend to stay away from war, just becaues they'd rather spend time studying. If war breaks out then they would probably return to the Temple to avoid being recruited, but not all do this. Some still stay to fight beause they love the land they live in, and even if they are fighting other Weavers it doesn't matter, again, no Law against it. Although out and out feuds/duels are frowned upon.
I'm still trying to find a good location for the Temple (need remote mountain area, far from Ximax as Art suggested) but it is safe to say that the secret of the location is saved. If anyone made even a vague reference in a book or something then Weavers would have discretely destroyed all copies. So no, no one but Weavers know it's location.
I believe I am going to write something like htat into the history, which would be the reason the Old Weavers wove the Great Protector. But no, since that was woven there is no threat, because even if someone found out about Weavers, highly unlikely, -and- found the location of the Temple, even more unlikely, there wouldn't be much of a threat. First they have to get past the Gaurdians, which is rather difficult for even a strong mage, then past the Great Protector, which is pretty much impossible for anything short of a demigod. This is mainly because, even if they were able to get past the Great Protector, it would alert the Masters and they would promptly weave some pain into the intruder. So, what I'm trying to say, is that since the thing of history I'm gonna write, it wouldn't happen unless one of the Gods came down to do it.

"Shut It!"-Ancient Illinoisian Saying

[Tarquet Galbar]

Here are two of the hardest Weavings there are to make.

1.)Doorway- Similar to the Gates, these use the Ancient Ways to travel. These take 8 hours to create and are only visible to Weavers until completed. After completion there will be a flash and a doorway, like one you might see that leads into an inn, appears out of no where. Inside are swirling, shifting colors and are two-dimensional. The Weaver must Weave the magic in the shape of a doorway, using intricate patterns.

2.)Dimension In A Ball- These are tricky, and take 12 hours to make, but are always worth it. First, the Weaver uses large strands to create something which looks like a small room, although the size of the room can be changed, the bigger it gets the harder the second part gets. This is easy, like Weaving a quick defensive wall. After that small strands are Woven around the large ones, over and over, until they are compressed into a small ball. It's small enough to fit easily into someone's palm, fist closed. When activated, the room expands from wherever the ball was, which is usually in the Weaver's hand. The Dimensions that take 12 hours fit 4 people that are  a foot and a half wide and six feet tall each. Once it is done expanding then it becomes 'solid' and cuts those inside off from the outside world. Once it is solid the Dimensions are not visible, nor are those inside, but while expanding they look like expanding red orbs, slowly turning into expanding red squares. They last for one day, during which they person(s) usually rest. Though they are time and energy consuming they are always thought of as worth it.

"Shut It!"-Ancient Illinoisian Saying

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 10/1/01 12:42:41 am

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Finally found the time to read all your ideas, Tarquet. Here are some comments.

- You say that Weavers worship magic like Gods. Exactly. I would see it the same way, but this doesn't contradict the idea that the concept is strongly influenced by the elves. Weavers who are elves could also interpret their weaving as a religious way in the elven sense, humans would use elven principles (which are based on religious beliefs) in order to make their weaving even more complete. I see no contradictions here.

- Temple location: I propose somewhere in the woods, maybe with some mountains close by, and I would see the Weavers best within the vast confines of the Thaelon. We currently don't have any mountains here, but we could put some in the NE of this territory. The Thaelon would be best as it is holy elven ground (location where the Tree of Life once stood - and in fact still stands).

- Ceremony of Induction: "Many say that they see the hands of the Master, which is very likely." Don't understand this ceremony exactly. Could you perhaps be more precise here?

- Offensive spells/money: If we follow elven ideas, which are in general weaver ideas, weavers wouldn't just cast offensive spells for fun and they also wouldn't do enchantments for money. This is just a question of philosophy. Guess a weaver wouldn't sell his art lightly.

- Gates/Ancient Ways: Quite a bit Jordanesque here. We should try to remain as unique as possible as Robert Jordan's concept shines through a bit too much here.

- 5 Great Things: Well, what are they?

- Great Protector: Needs to elaborated more. I only see a sketch here, but can't get the whole picture for now.

- Rest: Rest is very fine, especially ideas like the Woven City seem very interesting. Guess many things here would need own detailed entries. Well, maybe the main concept has also changed a bit now if we move it closer to elven principles, so perhaps there are some adjustments now necessary at the main entry (first things you posted). If you can do these adjustments, I guess we can move most things on the site already and should talk about certain things which need more details seperately.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Additional comment: You state that Weavers should be able to learn all kinds of magic. Don't agree here. This will especially be important for the Sorren game. You shouldn't be able to learn everything. You have to chose. You have to decide between the way of Xeuá magic and an elemental way. However, if you learn Xeuá magic you will still be able to cast elemental spell, but not more than to a certain extent.

[Xarl]

My idea of the Great Protector: The Great Protector is actually based on a combination of several spells. First, those merely wandering in the area of the Temple are slowly but surely psychicly directed away. Those who actually notice and forge onward usually are knocked out and wake up the following day, with a replaced memory of the previous events. The exceeding few who have very good psychic defenses usually have to be dealt with by the Guardians.
Admittedly, I took the first part from Dav Pinkwater's Lizard Music, but the rest I thought of myself.

[Tarquet Galbar]

Actually, Xarl, the knocking out and replacing memories thing is what the Gaurdians do. They are the first line of defense.

As pertaining to the offensive spells and money, this is where the Weavers differ from the Elves. They are taught that since it's something htey can do, and do well, then they should do what they can with it, and that they should be compensated for anything they do with their magic. Simple enchantments are easy to do, and if you're being comensated with money, then a good way to get paid. As for the offensive spells, it's not like Weavers are shut ins and going to sit around an davoid war. Like I said, if a Weaver believes in the cause then he will fight. Now, they don't have to learn offensive spells or do things for money, it's optional, but the Masters aren't going to say "You can only use your powers for defense, nothing more, and you have to find some other source of money." It simply wouldn't work, the way they see it. That's mostly why I didn't think they would really fit into the Elven way of magic. Its a mix of beliefs, and although they still don't really worship any real Gods, they don't deny their existence.

The Ceremony. During this, the Weavers who have served their 10 years as a Novice out in the world are brought back. While at the Temple they are sent into audience with a Master. The Master approaches them, and as I said, they are surrounded by an aura of light that you can't see through. The Weaver is pulled into this aura, practically blinding them, and the Master weaves magic into his eyes. Some say that they see thehands of the Master as this is being done. This allows them to see magic, when the power is called upon. It can be used for a straight 24 hours before it stops and 'recharges', although it's almost never used the full length.

The 5 Great Things I named, the Ways, Great Protector, etc.

I have a question, who is Robert Jordan? I've seriously never heard of him. I thought up the Ancient Ways as more of a walkway that the Old Weavers used because they were a bit more reclusive adn didn't like interacting with people, and the Gates were simply fixed points for this. The reclusivness is one of the reasons that the Old Weavers were 'destroyed' and why the Masters teach that you should go out and live among people. If it is Jordanesque then it is not on purpose, and I can change one or two things if necessary.

The Great Protector is like a giant dome which surrounds the Temple, and smaller versions of this encompass other special Weaver places. It stops the Temple (and other places) from being seen, discovered, entered, etc. without being a Weaver or having permission of the Masters.

See, the thing is, I don't want this to be closer to Elven principles. You can think of it as more of a mix of principles. This is why Weaving doesn't care which race you are. It all depends on having the talent to Weave, as well as the patience, ability to concentrate, and, to a lesser extent, the hands. These are people who are set apart, seperate from the rest. They like to mix the beliefs of different races as it pertains to Weaving. As humans are the most numerous among Weavers, their beliefs are more prominent(offensive spells, etc.), and elves come next, so forth.

When I say 'learn other magic' I don't mean every spell there is. Restricted to only low level spells, probably about 1-3, and not even all of those spells, only a select few. Although it's not all that necessary, and they usually only study the magic to get a better understanding of it. They can usually weave spells that can replace others, although not totally, as weaving specific spells is more difficult than a general Weaver type spell.

"Shut It!"-Ancient Illinoisian Saying

[Tarquet Galbar]

After thinking about it, I finally put my finger on what I was trying to display, although I don't think I've been doing very well.

Weavers love magic, worship magic, want to, and usually do, study every aspect of magic they can. They have a few rules that pertain to a few things, but there are only five big ones. Other than this they are rather loose in the way they veiw life. Magic comes easy to them, and they use it whenever they feel like, as long as they aren't exhausted. This is why they don't really care about offensive spells or using their Art to make money. There's no real 'usual' personality for them, because they are encouraged to do just what feels natural, as long as it doesn't interfere with the Five Laws.

As for the learning other spells, well, the more I think about it, the less it becomes necessary. Weavers can pretty much synthesize other spells if they want, although it takes a bit more time, as I said, than other spells which are used, as far it's currently known, by only Weavers. Potential to become too powerful? Perhaps, but Weavers don't really see why they should conquer the entire world. It just menas that people are going to try to defeat you, so what's the point? And if any Weaver ever gets those kind of ideas, they are swiftly dealt with by the Masters.

The Gates and Ancient Ways, well, I still do want to keep at least the Ancient Ways. How else would they have gotten to the city that they wove? The way I view it is that these paths exist in a place where everything is magic, with the occasional corporeal being that stumbled there by accident. The Old Weavers basically just laid out some set paths, which is where the Gates lead to. Although those are the only actual Ways, other ways are created each time a Weaver, Old or those from the recent times, every time a Doorway is used. The Gates aren't really necessary, but I would like it if there was a place in the Temple where it's easier to make a Doorway, maybe one room for each set location, such as the Shrine. Is that alright?

Has this cleared a few things up, maybe, as to how I invisioned the Weavers to be?  

"Shut It!"-Ancient Illinoisian Saying

[Bard Judith]

Tarquet - if I might make a couple of suggestions here...


Never heard of Robert Jordan?  He's one of the biggest (most popular, not necessarily best) high fantasy writers around - the series, which has about nine books by now, is called the WHEEL OF TIME.  In fact, even your name (smile) sounds a bit "Jordanesque"!  But leaving that aside, "ways" and "gates" are indeed a good but common concept of majik travel.

Perhaps we could keep the concept and give them different names, more suitable for the whole 'woven' idea?

For example: the Strand / the Knot / the Great Web

"Erenas the Weaver closed his eyes.  He could feel the flux and pull of magic energies under his hands, like a half-finished carpet stretched taut on the loom.  There - he ran mental fingers up one strand - there, at the intersection of those two glowing colours was the point he sought.  

If his skill was sufficient, as he bound and tied the strands of magic, space and even time would mold and stretch to his crafting.  The Knot would release and Dalen Fairhair, thousands of peds across the ocean, would be able to step through - able to walk the Great Web - able to step out again, out of the Knot Erenas' hands had shaped and opened.  

The Weaver drew breath smoothly into his lungs, filling and centering his mind on the tapestry of energy that hung around him..."

Whaddaya think?  Workable?

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