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Author Topic: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)  (Read 11318 times)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #30 on: 15 November 2005, 12:41:00 »

The thing is about focussing. If you have nothing to focus on you cannot cast a spell - at least not with elemental magic. If you're a Xeuá or Ecuá mage you target links within the target and/or with the universal fabric of time and space in even higher levels, but this is all a totally different kind of magic. You cannot cast elemental spells into nowhere.


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Theodorus Holzman
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« Reply #31 on: 15 November 2005, 12:51:00 »

Well, the solution to this "problem" would be simple. Use Terran laws of intensity and apply them to Caelerethian magic. Or, as Silfer already said, the "potential" of the spell decays with increased range.

If I'm correctly, Terran intensity decays with the square of the increase in radius. (Thus, having effect X at 4 meters will cost 4x more energy than creating effect X at 2 meters distance).
That way, you can have a ranged spell without having the problem of things happening at the other end of the world.

Anyway, I looked up the Spell Sphere definitions, and though I'm no magic expert, I found nothing that would disable a Sphere I mage from casting a spell outside his visual range. The latter seems a strange thing to me anyway, for
1) Sight is not the only sense a person has. Hearing, smell etc. can all extend one's range of detection.
2) No Sphere II or I mage would be able to cast spells in darkness, behind him, blindfolded, or when being blind. It would effectively mean that mages of lower Spheres could be disabled by simple removing their sight, or hiding yourself from their sight.

Furthermore, I do not really understand the analogy with the supermarket. First, the point of discussion is the visibility of the target, and suddenly it is range. To me those things are quite different, and using them similarly only.
The question whether I'm able to grasp my mouse with my eyes closed is wholly different from the question if I'm able to grasp it from a hundred meters distance.

Just my two sans worth.

KR,
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #32 on: 15 November 2005, 13:03:00 »

First of all the Sphere Definitions on the site lack stuff, that's why there are still problems with people trying to figure out what's Sphere I, II and III. I try to make it easier for everyone, but people fail to notice that quite obviously.

It's not really the "line of sight" for me that is important. You can cast a wind spell in the dark as well if the wind is there. But the element you want to focus on cannot be somewhere else.

(And now I really have to get to something more important.)


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« Reply #33 on: 15 November 2005, 13:03:00 »

Quote:
The thing is about focussing. If you have nothing to focus on you cannot cast a spell - at least not with elemental magic. If you're a Xeuá or Ecuá mage you target links within the target and/or with the universal fabric of time and space in even higher levels, but this is all a totally different kind of magic. You cannot cast elemental spells into nowhere.


But it's not not there, it's just not visible, that's something entirely different. Or do you want to imply that all Ximax magic would be invalid, because one cannot see ounia. Or that clerical magic is invalid because one cannot see a God?

I mean, if a mage can work with ounia-links that are essentially too small to be visible to the human eye, this mage probably has developed a certain magical sense of detecting these magical elements. Thus, if his detection of these magical elements does not depend on visual abilities, why would the non-visibility of an object be such a great problem?

KR,
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #34 on: 15 November 2005, 13:15:00 »

See answer above, posted at the same time as you did.


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« Reply #35 on: 15 November 2005, 13:39:00 »

Well, "somewhere else" is a rather vague definition. For if "somewhere else" does nót depend on line of sight, on what does it depend?
It's of course only reasonable to assume you cannot lift objects that are 100 strals away, however, to adress the question this all began with: Why is wind around a corner dubbed as "somewhere else", and wind at the same distance in front of you not?

And about the clarifications concerning the Spheres. Well, to me it seems the confusions linger because simply stating that the definitions are X instead of Y without explaining this sudden change in definitions will not clarify things much.

KR,
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« Reply #36 on: 15 November 2005, 14:08:00 »

a) As air is everywhere on the globe would you say that the air 2 meters in front of me is directly connected to the Fidji islands's air? If so, I could cast a spell on the Fidji islands from here. A direct connection needs to be made somehow, the mage's aura if you so want needs to be able to reach the focus.
b) I don't re-define magic, I complement existing stuff.


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« Reply #37 on: 15 November 2005, 15:16:00 »

You didn't answer my question, Art. You only answered a question you raised yourself. Please do not assume I say things which I don't.

My question didn't concern itself with air being connected from here to the Fidji islands. I don't recall mentioning a connection anywhere in my previous post.
Rather, I asked you what was the difference between air at two meters distance within the line of sight, and air at two meters distance hidden from view.
As you are obviously the one who sees a enormous difference there, you should be able to explain it.

Secondly, I think a mage has the ability to "detect" magical elementary particles within a given radius, which increases with te mage's skill. That would be the natural boundary to any range of a spell being cast by this particular mage. However, such an ability to detect magical particles is in no way necessarily linked to the mage's eyesight.

Bottom line is, you raised an issue concerning a spell that was supposedly too difficult because the affected wind-target was nót within the line of sight of the caster. And though the analogy with the  supermarket and/or the Fidji islands might be interesting, it does not adress the problem fully, or correctly. Repeating the analogy won't change that.

And about redefining magic. Well, adding to a definition could be seen as redefining, but that's of course another matter. What is important though, is that your new approach to the Sphere's is quite different from the approach currently taken on the site. Instead of approaching it from the elementary side, you now approach it from a more practical-restrictive side. And though I do not necessarily see this as a bad thing, it dóes spread confusion.
Moreover, you have also not yet explained why this complementation of the Sphere-system was necessary. Apart from the fact that it supports your current position, but that's no valid argument/reason.

KR,
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #38 on: 15 November 2005, 14:47:00 »

"I asked you what was the difference between air at two meters distance within the line of sight, and air at two meters distance hidden from view."

That you cannot establish direct auratic contact. If there's a fire burning two meter in front of you, but you are seperated by a one meter thick wall so you don't even sense it - why should you be able to manipulate this fire? How would you focus? Why should one be able to focus at all? Is it helpful that one can focus in this case?


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/14/05 21:47
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« Reply #39 on: 15 November 2005, 16:12:00 »

So what you actually infer here, is that to establish auratic contact requires visual perception of the target.

I still do not see the reason for this. Why would magical perception be bound by visual perception? If the wall would, for instance, made of glass, but still be one meter thick, would you then be able to manipulate the fire?

After all, this whole Ximaxian theory is built from the hypothesis that everything is made of car'all, consisting of ounia held together by Xeuá links.
Now, I ask you, what is, on this magical level, the difference between one meter of air between a fire mage and a fire, and one meter of earth (as in a brick wall). For, as a fire mage, I am able to detect fire-ounia at a few peds away even if there's air (wind-ounia) in the way.
You place yourself, and us, in a box by maintaining that there is a fundamental difference between certain ounia, that disable magical perception. But this box is based on the idea that magical perception should be connected to ordinary perception, which, IMHO, it should not be, as I see no reason to maintain such a distinction.

Your view is analogous to maintaing that it would matter at a microcosmic level what properties a certain group of particles has at a macrocosmic level. E.g. maintaining that at microcosmic level sand is fundamentally different from glass, because you can look through glass, and not through sand. While at the microcosmic level, the differences are not at all that fundamenal. And this microcosmic level is, necessarily, where the mage is operating.

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« Reply #40 on: 15 November 2005, 16:23:00 »

I'm out.


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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #41 on: 16 November 2005, 16:55:00 »

Quote:
For, as a fire mage, I am able to detect fire-ounia at a few peds away even if there's air (wind-ounia) in the way.

I've got a question. Can mages actually detect ounia? They are an artificial way of describing things and by imagining the changes happening to the ounia a mage can cast a spell, but can they actually feel 'real' ounia?

If not that would explain why you need to see the targetted area (for some spells maybe other senses could used like feeling or hearing) because you can't focus on something you don't percieve.

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« Reply #42 on: 16 November 2005, 17:06:00 »

Well, I don't know exactly, I'm no magic expert.

However, as far as I know, most theories are formed to explain certain fenomena that have been empirically detected/explored. Thus, a theory involving such elementary particles such as ounia and the like would only come into existence if mages had some reason to invent such a theory. And that reason would, IMHO, mos probably be that they somehow detect these ounia/elemental links.

Also, to use Art's own explanation. You cannot manipulate something you cannot detect. Thus, if a fire-mage manipulates fire-ounia, he needs to be, at some basic level, aware of them.

KR,
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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #43 on: 16 November 2005, 18:08:00 »

As I see it, mage can't detect ounia by any "sixt sense", but we have spells that allow you to see car'all. As for the rest, if you can't see something it would take more skill to still be able to directly manipulate it with magic (cast a spell, what this debate has been about), thus pointing to an increase in level. Of course, this raises the question of being able to affect anything anywhere, but that is adressed by magical reach. Magical reach would be that magic from a caster has a reach, depending on the spell (Range column in the spell) and level. This is "logical" because magic in caelereth cannot eschew distance, teleporting etc. isn't allowed. All this IMHO, of course.  

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« Reply #44 on: 27 November 2005, 16:40:00 »

I've always assumed thatounia cannot be felt.  If they could, the case for the Ximaxian theories being correct becomes a lot stronger.  Not a good thing, since we want there to be as much doubt about Ximaxian theories being wrong as there are about other magic theories.  I always figured that they got the theories from the elves (though they then developed it further themselves), and figured that since it works, it's probably right, or at least not too far off.  

As for 'direct auratic contact', what does that mean?  Actual contact between the car'alls?  Why?  
If direct contact is needed, I don't see how spells can have range at all, unless it's say, in the form of a projectile, like a fireball spell, and even then, the projectile cannot manifest anywhere besides where the mage is.  Quite limiting, it seems.  

And will someone look at the spell before coming back to the magic discussion?  I've already changed some of the stuff that sparked off this debate in the first place, and I want to know if there are any more changes that should be made.  The debate can continue after the entry has been approved.  


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