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Author Topic: The true nature of lightning?  (Read 30348 times)
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Mina
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« on: 30 November 2005, 23:48:00 »

Reviving an old debate*.  I think back then we had two different ideas concerning what the nature of lightning might be.  If I'm not mistaken, the first was that lightning is an aspect of wind, much like ice is just another aspect of water.  The second idea was that lightning is purely energy, which can be built up and released by manipulating car'all in certain ways.  I'm leaning towards the first idea myself, but I'm intersted in seeing if someone can give a better explanation for the second (I don't quite get it), or come up with even better ideas.  

*Those of you who know of my fondness for lightning bolts might have an idea why.  Besides, we should put this to better use.  


Edited by: Mina Aylwin at: 11/30/05 6:49
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Pikel
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« Reply #1 on: 01 December 2005, 01:14:00 »

I would think it is Wind merely because most of the offensive wind spells ARE lightning based.....




Physical beauty is inextricably bound to Spiritual Beauty. If you are lacking in Spiritual Beauty, then you are lacking in Physical beauty. If you are overflowing with spiritual beauty, then you are also overflowing in physical beauty. At least in MY messed up eyes.   -Derek Coulter

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Kain Cristar
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« Reply #2 on: 01 December 2005, 01:40:00 »

I personally have always had a hard time understanding how wind makes lightning. Ice is solid water, it makes sense, if you melt ice it becomes water. You can do nothing with lightning to make it into wind. While I understand that Science of the real world is not the same as reality in Caelereth, somethings just don't work. We cannot make our magic system skew reality so much that a realistic basis is obliterated by our creative flux. Ice must melt into water, therefore they are related.

In the spell clap of thunder, the clap of the mages hands translates into the thunder and therefore lightning. This expaination never really did it for me. While in Static bolt the lightning is created by seperating earth and wind Car'all, which creates energy. This seems to imply that there are multiple ways to create lighning. It also makes me wonder. If a wind mage can seperate earth and wind, can an earth mage do the same? Does that mean an earth mage can cast static bolt? Maybe my ignorance to the magic system witholds general revelations to me, but over all the system of lightning seems confused and beguiled. With many different versions of how and what it is.

I've never been in this debate, but I would like to see how persons of the second oppinion feel, as it makes more immediate sense to me. Though if we were to change it, the wind magic section would be in trouble, since Pikel is right. Wind offence is very lightning oriented.

Maybe If Car'all is supercharged it causes a reaction that leads to lightning? I have no idea of how to supercharge Car'all but I like to give stupid ideas anyways.:biggrin  

You have lived a life of cruelty and atrocity, you have bathed in the blood of the innocent, you have considered every act of depravity and your corruption knows no bounds. I am the angel of justice, I am the accumulation of all of your sins. Prepare for your redemption.

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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #3 on: 01 December 2005, 10:02:00 »

Kain: There's nothing wrong with having several ways to create something. A fire mage can make ice too, by lowering the temperature (manipulating fire), so I don't necessarily see a reason for an earth mage to be unable to cast static bolt.

And well, lightning in the real world is caused by polarity in clouds. Wikipedia article However, lightning was "explained" in many ways before we on terra knew about electricity. Statis bolt - I used earth as an opposite of wind, thus having a discharge of energy (motion: wind is motion, earth is stillness, so energy discharges from wind to earth), but who said there should be but one explanation?

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Mina
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« Reply #4 on: 01 December 2005, 10:52:00 »

Quote:
A fire mage can make ice too, by lowering the temperature (manipulating fire), so I don't necessarily see a reason for an earth mage to be unable to cast static bolt.

Didn't Arti once post some explanation for why that sort of thing is not possible?  I don't remember what exactly, but I'm sure that he did it, I think in the Area of Frost thread.  


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Theodorus Holzman
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« Reply #5 on: 01 December 2005, 12:24:00 »

It all depends on the perspective you want to explain lightning from. I assume you're looking for a Ximaxian explanation, but I'd just like to point out that for the rest of Caelereth, all kinds of other ideas would do just as fine.
Clerics (and ordinary people?) could/would just regard it as something thrown "down" by the Gods, for instance. (Like Zeus from the Olympos, or Donar in his chariot).
As such, as far as I now understand the ideas on this matter, there's no way we'll be defining the "true" nature of lightning.

Then for the Ximaxian explanation itself. I suppose using lightning as an expression of Wind would be better than just having the "pure energy" idea. After all, the first concept fits much better with Ximax.
Idea could be to regard it as intense connections between Wind ounia, disabling all other connections. You could with that model also explain why natural lightning tends to hit ground. That'd be because such an intensified situation isn't stable, and the ounia would seek a way to stabilize themselves, thus seek immediate contact with nearest "earth" object.

KR,
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Kain Cristar
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« Reply #6 on: 01 December 2005, 22:14:00 »

That last statement was one of the first times Ximax made real sense to me. I know that you try to stray away from how things "really" work. Yet, I think that that is the question. Are all explianations correct? Or is there some undefined yet  higher truth, that realates to each mortal explaination?

You have lived a life of cruelty and atrocity, you have bathed in the blood of the innocent, you have considered every act of depravity and your corruption knows no bounds. I am the angel of justice, I am the accumulation of all of your sins. Prepare for your redemption.

-Kain Cristar, Divine Aspect

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You have lived a life of cruelty and atrocity, you have bathed in the blood of the innocent, you have considered every act of depravity and your corruption knows no bounds. I am the angel of justice, I am the accumulation of all of your sins. Prepare for your redemption.

        -Kain Cristar, Divine Aspect
xerampelinae deicida
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« Reply #7 on: 01 December 2005, 23:21:00 »

since lightning in nature is electricity equalizing its charge in an area what if we made a lightning spell were car'all was drained from one place to another then allowed to return to equilibrium viollently. Higher levels could controll more lightning bolts and make it look like they where shooting from more distant points. So I spose it would be 2 spells draw car'all then violent release car'all.

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Servilius
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« Reply #8 on: 02 December 2005, 03:41:00 »

Hey! *passing through*

"Idea could be to regard it as intense connections between Wind ounia, disabling all other connections. You could with that model also explain why natural lightning tends to hit ground. That'd be because such an intensified situation isn't stable, and the ounia would seek a way to stabilize themselves, thus seek immediate contact with nearest "earth" object."

Lightenings equally often originate from the ground as they do from clouds. The connection works both ways. It is just taken as common that lightening strikes from the sky, but it actually doesn't.


*winks*

Bye!

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #9 on: 02 December 2005, 07:09:00 »

Well, that doesn't have to be the case with Santharian lightnings - they could all occur in a horinzontal way - remember - we don't have necessarily an earthern physics here, only if we chose to!  :D  

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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #10 on: 02 December 2005, 08:24:00 »

Bearing in mind the seventy-one references to 'lightning' already on the site, however, it appears that lightning does 'strike' in Caelereth, moving vertically from sky to earth.   There are plenty of recorded strikes, from the Deciding of the Blood duel in 729 b.S., the Ulvur Freyra's catching and capturing a bolt with her sword, the transformation of the barbarian Ash'mystrume into the Burning Man flower, the destruction of the cabin boy Leimolf's ship (see the Khendochar entry),  the appearance of Watchers as illuminated by lightning, and so on... and let us not forget that the entire Browniin Origin of the Species is based on a bolt of lightning having struck the Tree of Life!

 Whether or not it also moves the other way, or horizontally/diagonally/in the fourth dimension, is not necessarily ruled out, of course - but it does 'strike' downwards!

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Servilius
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« Reply #11 on: 02 December 2005, 13:55:00 »

Actually it does not matter what rules you apply here, if Theo's principles are true, the effect is reversable just like with good old Earthern lightening because it is based on an imbalance being restored to normal, wether this imbalance is caused by the sky or by the ground does not affect the outcome.

"Whether or not it also moves the other way, or horizontally/diagonally/in the fourth dimension, is not necessarily ruled out, of course - but it does 'strike' downwards!"

Like Earthern lightening that actually doesn't but we usually think  it does because we were told so and are not interested enough in physics to dispute this inaccuracy every so often?  ;)

Anyway was just strolling past and read through some stuff. Good day!

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #12 on: 02 December 2005, 14:32:00 »

*sigh*
Yes, Judy, but they COULD go in all directions, this was what I wanted to say, that we don't have to stick to what we know.Your examples could as well be exceptions to the normal. But I really don't care.

*goes back to her work*

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 12/1/05 21:33
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Twen Araerwen
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« Reply #13 on: 03 December 2005, 03:55:00 »

I am somewhat new to this debate, yet I hope I could give a new view on this. Wind mages could control wind ounia causing them to move rapidly thereby causing static electricity to build in the water ounia about them. Once reaching a point would be released in a flash of lightning. This could explain as well horizontally formed lightning. This removes the earth ounia from the equation and lends an explanation to what we call heat lightning, which takes place in the sky alone.

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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #14 on: 03 December 2005, 13:43:00 »

Twen: True, but I am not sure if we have a concept of static electricity (altho the ancient greeks did, btw, amber has its name from the phenomenon I think), and more importantly, if in santharia lightning would be seen as a static electricity.

On second thought, I feel tempted to correct your idea a bit. Static would not build in water ounia - ounia are not atoms. It could, however, build in the water particles in the air, and also then a wind mage would move the air particles, and not the ounia themselves. Remember the difference between from and content, matter and ounia.

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