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Author Topic: Druidic Magic: Any thoughts?  (Read 34385 times)
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Pikel
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« Reply #75 on: 05 January 2006, 16:46:00 »

Alright, Incorporations shall be made.

And Silfer, if you would like to help with the myth/origin section, It would be most welcome.

EDIT: I elaborated on the areas you specified, I am still thinking of some possible myths, and if you want to add one or two of your own, that's no problem Silfer.



Physical beauty is inextricably bound to Spiritual Beauty. If you are lacking in Spiritual Beauty, then you are lacking in Physical beauty. If you are overflowing with spiritual beauty, then you are also overflowing in physical beauty. At least in MY messed up eyes.   -Derek Coulter

Edited by: Pikel Thunderstone at: 1/5/06 0:05
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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #76 on: 05 January 2006, 17:32:00 »

Ad-crockery, Pikel, second meaning. ;)  

Quote:
If one's essence is not as strong willed as the essence it is merging with, then one might find his own essence being manipulated, instead of vice versa.


Essence being strong-willed?

It's a liguistic point, I just realized. "Wind essence, earth essence... sentient essence" versus "this essence is sentient". First is just a name, second means that the essence can think.

I shall see about the myths.

Edited by: Silfer Darkflare at: 1/5/06 0:33
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Pikel
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« Reply #77 on: 05 January 2006, 18:43:00 »

I shall look through the entry and see make sure none of that confusion can be found.

*realizes that the above sentence is worded fairly poorly*



Physical beauty is inextricably bound to Spiritual Beauty. If you are lacking in Spiritual Beauty, then you are lacking in Physical beauty. If you are overflowing with spiritual beauty, then you are also overflowing in physical beauty. At least in MY messed up eyes.   -Derek Coulter

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Theodorus Holzman
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« Reply #78 on: 08 January 2006, 14:01:00 »

I was asked to comment on this particular entry, and so I did.

Most comments concern themselves with content of the entry, and are in red. A few grammatical/stylistic things have been changed, and are noted in blue.

Overview: Druidic Magic is the magic of nature. Why is it specifically the magic of nature, if it is focussed around the idea of essences? What’s the basic link to nature, aside from Terran associations?  It is the magic practiced by the 6 Druidic orders, and the ‘rogue order’ of Black druids. Why name the Black Druids aside from the others? This magic takes a quite a long time to perform, but the results are usually quite spectacular. Wouldn’t Druids be able to do smaller things as well?

Prevalence: Druidic magic is, obviously, the magic of druids. Only druids, in places where druids can be found (which is primarily Northern and Southern Sarvonia), practice druidic magic.

Concept/Worldview: Druidic magic is based on the Druids’ belief in essences. The way they explain it, they merge their own essence with the essence of what they want to change, and from there merely will it into changing. This of course takes time, for they have to meditate for a time to actually make the merger. The older the essence one is trying to merge with, the longer it will take to merge with it. For example: a coastal redwood that has been standing for over two millennia will take longer to merge with than a seedling flower. An older essence has "gotten used" to being the way it is. It is set in its ways, and thus harder to merge with. A younger essence is less set in its ways, and thus easier to merge with.
Is this relative or absolute? For I would think that it depends on the kind of essence how fast it ages. A sentient or animal-essence might age faster than that of a plant.
Otherwise, some Druids (working with earth, for instance) have a much harder time than others (who might work with animals). As animals generally are much younger than mountains.


Basic Principles: Druids teach that all things in this world exist on two levels; the physical level, and the spiritual level. An "essence" is the spiritual side of any given object. Nobody ever sees an essence, although with the proper training, it is possible to interact with it. It can be called a soul of sorts, but it is only as sentient as its material counterpart is. An essence is the very core of an objects existence. If an essence is changed somehow, so too does it's material counterpart. One could say that an essence is the spiritual make-up of its counterpart.

Each essence comes into being at the same exact time that its material counterpart comes into existence. Example, A human essence comes into being as soon as the child is conceived. Also, an essence can be said to have died once its material counterpart is destroyed or otherwise no longer existent. Example, a mountain has an essence. An earthquake occurs, and the mountain is split in twain. Since the "mountain" is no longer there, its essence can be said to have "died". But now there are two smaller mountains in it's place, and a completely new essence is created for each of them.
Perhaps I overlooked it, but I fail to find a notion of “where” the essence comes from. You tell us it comes into existence, but does how does it do so?

Each essence is as completely unique as its counterpart, but like its counterpart, it shares similarities as well. All Essences fit into one of the seven sub categories, which are: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Plant, Animal, and sentient being. For instance, a small rock's essence is as different from a mountain's essence as their physical bodies are, but the essences are still earth based.

With training, one could learn to merge one's essence with the essence of something else. If such a merging occurs, the stronger willed of the two objects will be able to influence the essence of the other object, thus changing its characteristics. If the spiritual side is changed, its physical side will follow, and vice versa. If the physical side is changed, its essence will change to accommodate it. The exceptions to this are sentient beings. The merging of the essences is resisted by sentient beings. Sentient beings recognize that an essence is trying to merge with its own, and resists, although the person may not know exactly what is transpiring. However, if one can get past that resistance, then they are able to merge with the essence. If one is not as strong willed as the person who's essence he is merging with, then one might find his own essence being manipulated, instead of vice versa.

Abilities: Once the merger is actually complete, the essences of the druid and what he wants to change are one. The druid then has the chance to change what he wants. The actual changing is quite natural. He changes something like he would move his arms, he merely wills it to change, and it changes.

However, there are limits. The main thing that must be remembered is that the druid must maintain his meditation while performing what he wants to perform. If his concentration is broken, than the merger is also broken, and any control over his element is lost. Beyond that, the druid’s limits are few. He can change anything about the essence, as long as it remains based on the same category. Example: an Gray druid can do anything he wants to an animal, except give it sentience, because that would change it from an animal based essence, to a sentient being based essence.
About the limits. You say they are few, but your analogy gives rise to problems. If a Druid changes the essence of e.g. a mountain like he would move his arm, is he able to defy physics (even for a short time). The broader question would be: Is a Druid able to change an essence (and the connected object) beyond naturally imposed limits?

Druids also have the ability to physically merge with their element. In Green Druids, this produces the Kroi’lon, or war dryad; a gigantic half man, half tree being. In Red druids this produces the phenomenon known as the firedance. The Druids body is completely turned to flame, but retains its humanoid shape. Gray Druids can merge with an animal of their choosing. This often makes for interesting, often bizarre and horrific, transformations; such has a half-man/half-flunki, or a half woman/half-Cartashian Bear. The Brown druids can merge with the earth, making the Sfomm-Kereen, Thergarim for stone baby, who have bodies of moveable rock, not unlike a golem. Stone baby is a misleading name although, for considering the Somm-kereen's size, very few of the people of Caelereth would consider it a 'baby'. Similar to the Brown Druids, the Blue Druids can merge with ice, making their bodies a sort of moveable ice, again, not unlike a sentient golem. The druids all retain their sense of self, and their intelligence during these transformations. These transformations last for three days, and they cannot revert back during those three days, for that would require changing one's own essence, which is not only tabooed, it is thought to be impossible. Tragically, it costs the druids their lives to use these abilities for three days, for the essences between the druid and what he physically merges with are incompatible, and thus, the being dies after a few days. Thus they are only used in a last desperate attempt to protect nature. Black and white druids do not use this ability, for White druids are too aloof to become martyrs, and Black druids do not love sentient beings enough to die for them. Considering how formidable these transformations are, the attempt often works.

There a few factors that may reduce the amount of time needed. For instance, the greater the amount of druids working towards the same goal, the faster said goal will be accomplished. This is accomplished because the experience of all the druids is put as one, and they all merge with the object at the same time, thus the time is divided between the druids. They are able to achieve their same goal through communication, for in merging with the same essence,they create a link to eachothers thoughts, and can project any ideas they have through this link. They cannot send any actual words, but only ideas, or notions. If an inexperienced druid is added to the task, the task will get done faster, but not nearly as fast as if an experienced druid was there, for experience is another factor. An experienced druid gets his task done much faster than one who doesn't use his gifts. Therefore, it is quite possible for a young druid who uses his abilities often to be more skilled than an elder who rarely finds need to use his skills, even though the elder has been a part of the order for a longer amount of time. The last thing that effects the time is how often a druid has merged with a particular essence; the more a druid merges with the same essence, the faster it takes every time.

Limitations: It should be noted here, that druids are not able to change their own essences, for they have nothing to merge with. This is strange. They can “will” another essence into changing, but not their own? I thought the actual process of change was caused by the “willing”, and not that much by merging. The merging seems to me only necessary to change other objects.  Not only that, one would have to be a Black druid to do it (for changing oneself would usually mean changing a sentient being essence, unless one is less than sentient) and thus, there is a taboo on even trying to tinker with one’s own essence. There are stories of the elven Black druid, Mehán’chón, who figured out how to change his own essence. The stories say he made himself grow wings, and jumped off a cliff to learn how try them out. Unfortunately, he made the wings too small to hold his weight, and, much to Mehán’chón’s dismay, he remade acquaintanceship with the ground much sooner than he originally intended. However, for the most part, druids believe the story of Mehán’chón to be only a fairy tale.
Another thing. Are Druids able to merge with multiple objects simultaneously? Otherwise, their inability to do so could be noted as a limit.

It should be made clear that the merging process takes far too long to have any practicality whatsoever in a fight. Although, if one wanted the grand effects of an "artillery" of sorts, the druids are the people capable of fulfilling that role. Druids are capable of creating smaller effects; it just takes far too long to be practical in some cases. For example, a fire druid could burn down a tree, but it would be much faster merely to chop it down with an axe.

Training: Of course, one must learn how to do all this, and to get training one must first find a druid (which is a task in and of itself.) If the druid decides that the hopeful has the personality and drive and love that are required, then the druid trains him. This training mainly consists of mass amounts of time meditating, and learning how to merge with an essence that is so unlike that of the druids. I suppose there is also enough time to meditate on Druid ideology? Black druids however, must first become a druid of one of the other six orders, and then learn by themselves how to merge with a sentient being's essence. I don’t think anyone would be able to join an order with the purpose of becoming a Black Druid. It seems to me that such a thing only develops later on. Perhaps you could mention that in your entry. They are able to do this because they already know the basics of merging with essences, even though they know not how to merge with a sentient being one. Thus it takes much longer to learn to become a Black druid than any other druid. Black druids are far too distrustful to take on apprentices, and the other six orders hold a taboo on Black druidism. Thus, there are very few Black druids in the world.

Origins: This compendium holds no concrete evidence on the actual origins of the magic of Druids, although there are several reports, stories, and myths concerning it, and depending on which druid you ask, you will likely get a different story, assuming that the druid would be willing to tell you his stories in the first place, which is not likely unless you have proven your worth to him. Elven Druids tend to tell people that Avá, Coór, and the Aeolía placed the essences, or énh’cár'ámn in their tongue, in to their physical ‘bodies’. Some druids say that the first person to access an essence was an old farm lady, who managed to merge with one of her many cats, although this story is unlikely. Some Druids say that everything started as one essence, and thus one body, and slowly split into many, until finally all the essence that exist today, exist, as do all the bodies. What you say here concerns itself more with a creation-myth/worldview of the Druids, rather than the origin of their orders. You should perhaps explain more how Druids actually came to practicing magic.


KR,
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Pikel
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« Reply #79 on: 08 January 2006, 15:07:00 »

Quote:
Perhaps I overlooked it, but I fail to find a notion of “where” the essence comes from. You tell us it comes into existence, but does how does it do so?


This is really the only one of your comments i dislike. And the reason for it is simple. How would a compendium writer POSSIBLY know this. I think people would just assume that it is born as the new object is born.

And as for your "aging" question. Absolute. Yes if they are merging with mountains, it takes a very, VERY long time to do it. But The Brown druids are mostly dwarves, so they don't mind.

Quote:
Is a Druid able to change an essence (and the connected object) beyond naturally imposed limits?


Yes. HOWEVER, he can't make a mountain FLY for example, because that just doesn't make sense. But he CAN make it  grow to a vast size, or make it explode, or make itflatten etc etc

Quote:
Why name the Black Druids aside from the others?


Because they aren't an "Order". This is explained in the druidic orders entry.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I will be making edits today, or tonight, whichever is easiest for Pikel



Physical beauty is inextricably bound to Spiritual Beauty. If you are lacking in Spiritual Beauty, then you are lacking in Physical beauty. If you are overflowing with spiritual beauty, then you are also overflowing in physical beauty. At least in MY messed up eyes.   -Derek Coulter

Edited by: Pikel Thunderstone at: 1/8/06 6:22
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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #80 on: 08 January 2006, 21:49:00 »

The question of where an essence comes from could be posed to Ximax as well, "where does a car'all come from". So I agree with Pikel, it doesn't really make sense in this setting.  

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Pikel
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« Reply #81 on: 09 January 2006, 00:37:00 »

Quote:
Why is it specifically the magic of nature, if it is focussed around the idea of essences? What’s the basic link to nature, aside from Terran associations?


Because druids revere natures, specifically the aspect of nature in which they merge with. Will make this more clear.

Quote:
Wouldn’t Druids be able to do smaller things as well?


See later in the entry. They CAN do small things, but with the time required to merge, it is often a waste of time, and more prudent to do what you are trying to achieve by more mundane means.

Quote:
This is strange. They can “will” another essence into changing, but not their own? I thought the actual process of change was caused by the “willing”, and not that much by merging. The merging seems to me only necessary to change other objects.


I am finding this very hard to explain, so confusion is not surprising. What i mean is, they cant change their own essence because they don't....have ACCESS to it. They have nothing to work with, whereas if they merge with somehting, there is something 'tangible' to work with (although it really isn't tangible, i just couldn't think of a better word.

Quote:
Another thing. Are Druids able to merge with multiple objects simultaneously? Otherwise, their inability to do so could be noted as a limit.


Because of the concentration required in merging, no they can't. I will elaborate in entry.

Quote:
I don’t think anyone would be able to join an order with the purpose of becoming a Black Druid. It seems to me that such a thing only develops later on. Perhaps you could mention that in your entry


It is mentioned in the druidic orders entry, where i think it would be more prudent to address that question.

Quote:
What you say here concerns itself more with a creation-myth/worldview of the Druids, rather than the origin of their orders. You should perhaps explain more how Druids actually came to practicing magic.


I am confused as to this, I thought i was supposed to come UP with the creation myth / origins of the MAGIC, not the orders, whereas i would come up with the origins of the orders, in the orders entry (which btw, i i have started work on the druidic orders history, although it is gonna be awhile until it is complete)

Thank you very much for the comments, I am editing and integrating your comments as we speak.



Physical beauty is inextricably bound to Spiritual Beauty. If you are lacking in Spiritual Beauty, then you are lacking in Physical beauty. If you are overflowing with spiritual beauty, then you are also overflowing in physical beauty. At least in MY messed up eyes.   -Derek Coulter

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Pikel
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« Reply #82 on: 09 January 2006, 00:45:00 »

EDIT: Please delete this post, Accidently reposted Entry here :upset  

I did edit it though :)  



Physical beauty is inextricably bound to Spiritual Beauty. If you are lacking in Spiritual Beauty, then you are lacking in Physical beauty. If you are overflowing with spiritual beauty, then you are also overflowing in physical beauty. At least in MY messed up eyes.   -Derek Coulter

Edited by: Pikel Thunderstone at: 1/8/06 7:51
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Theodorus Holzman
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« Reply #83 on: 09 January 2006, 09:05:00 »

Quote:
The question of where an essence comes from could be posed to Ximax as well, "where does a car'all come from". So I agree with Pikel, it doesn't really make sense in this setting.


They seem different to me, actually. What I understand from Ximax is that Car'all is there, alongside normal matter. And although it changes over time, it doesn't really come into existence out of nowhere. I regard Car'all a bit like energy in the normal Terran world. It's there, and although it can be changed, Law of Conservation of Energy exists.

Essences I view more as would they be the equivalent of a "soul" of some sorts. And if you look at Terran beliefs concerning souls, you'll see they all have some sort of explanation whére this soul comes from. Especially if it is believed it is only conceived upon "birth" of a being.
For instance, some faiths say souls come from some universal Source, or from Heaven or God.
Point is, that it seems strange to me that the Druids wouldn't have speculated about the origin of the essences, and never took the time to construct some idea about their origin.

KR,
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Theodorus Holzman
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« Reply #84 on: 09 January 2006, 09:17:00 »

Quote:
I am confused as to this, I thought i was supposed to come UP with the creation myth / origins of the MAGIC, not the orders, whereas i would come up with the origins of the orders, in the orders entry (which btw, i i have started work on the druidic orders history, although it is gonna be awhile until it is complete)


Well, yes. But what you tell in the overview concers itself more with how the essences came into being, rather than how the first Druids came into existence.
Magic is the manipulation of essences, rather than the essences themselves. So I think your origin could use some extra information on how people learned to manipulate the essences around them, thus laying the foundation for Druidic magic.

KR,
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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #85 on: 09 January 2006, 12:05:00 »

Aha - Theo, I see your point about where essences come from.

As I see it, essences "coming into being" at creation of an object can be seen as an abstraction. After all, everything has an essence. So the essence of that object comes into being as the object does, but it is too a combination of the essences of whatever made the object.

Of course, that's one way to see it. If Pikel wants something else, I have no objections whatsoever.

I should see about some myths, yes. I am thinking a myth of creation specifically (surely the druids wouldn't hold to Ava, or have their own twist on it). And maybe some more.

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« Reply #86 on: 09 January 2006, 12:35:00 »

Theo, Silfer - thanks a lot for your help here! would you please bell-ring me as soon as you think I should have a look? It has not to be finished though (myth etc), but your present ideas/comments integrated to a certain amount. I'm currently behind my shedule of looking at entries that I'm glad if I can finish looking at some others, easier ones first.

Thanks again:)

Pikel, please email me about what you plan for your masterpiece!

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Pikel
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« Reply #87 on: 10 January 2006, 01:36:00 »

Quote:
So the essence of that object comes into being as the object does, but it is too a combination of the essences of whatever made the object.


That is the point i am trying to get across, about the coming into existence of Essences. I will try to find a way of integrating it into the entry.

EDIT: well it isn't exactly the point i am trying to get across, because sometimes one essence splits, or it just changes. They way it is, essences change according to their physical bodies, and vice versa. If a tree dies, then the essences also "dies" and a new "dead tree essence" is put in it's place. If a dead tree's essence is changed to become living, then that essence "dies" and a new "living tree essence" is put in its place. or one essence is "split" into two, like when a rock is split asunder. The rock's essence "dies" and the two new rocks have completely new essences for themselves. so there weren't two "parent" essences in either case, so your theory doesn't really work.



Physical beauty is inextricably bound to Spiritual Beauty. If you are lacking in Spiritual Beauty, then you are lacking in Physical beauty. If you are overflowing with spiritual beauty, then you are also overflowing in physical beauty. At least in MY messed up eyes.   -Derek Coulter

Edited by: Pikel Thunderstone at: 1/9/06 8:53
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ishmaelion
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« Reply #88 on: 10 January 2006, 06:13:00 »

@Grun

Quote:
secretive and mermit-like?  And if you do in fact mean hermit-like, you could even perhaps use "hermetic". Not that it makes any difference as this is a rough draft, but meh, random commenting is kewl, says I.


I would like it to be marmot-like, meaning gopher-like:crazy

like you said, random commenting rulez:number1

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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #89 on: 10 January 2006, 17:05:00 »

Oh, I just thought of it: Can an essence be more than one type? Think car'all, car'all of object typically consists of multiple elements. What about essences, can the essence of an object be like this? And, if it can, who of the druids can manipulate it and so on.

Also, I recall making this point:
Quote:
As for the "druids can do anything" - Well, yes, just a Ximaxian fire mage of sufficient level can do anything with a fire/with fire car'all. However, a) Some things are harder than others, b)There is a reason Ximax has spells, and that is to be able to control what they do. So for a druid, it would also be a challenge at times to know what he/she is doing, otherwise the results might be nasty. (Consider a fire druid manipulating fire to say form a firewall, need to be careful or else he might get a big fire instead of a firewall.)


I see no trace of that in the entry. As in, how do druids train to avoid messing stuff up etc.

Edited by: Silfer Darkflare at: 1/10/06 0:11
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