List of Elemental Properties (Discussion)

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[Mina]

Well, Arti suggested that we start listing the properties associated with each element, and I figure that's a pretty good idea.  I'll start with the few I can think of.  Feel free to suggest more, and do include the reasoning behind why you think they fit under the element.  

Earth
Stillness
Hardness?

Fire
Heat
Light
Various forms of passion
Animation

Water
Coldness
Liquidness
Transparency?

Wind
Movement
Lightness
Invisibility
Gaseousness?

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 3/24/06 20:37

[Mina]

Well, fire and water are usually called 'chaotic' elements, and wind and earth are usually said to be the 'calm' elements.  I'm not sure if those fit in the list though.  Would it mean that a property could be attributed to more than one element?  That sounds rather odd.  

Also, 'chaotic' and 'calm' do not properly describe what we really mean to say.  Fire and water represent essentially a change in state, or an intermediate stage, while wind and earth are end products, ie. they are not changing.  Any ideas for better terms to describe this besides 'chaotic' and 'calm'?  I think Rayne suggested 'contented' once for wind and earth, but that doesn't seem quite right either.  

[Marvin Cerambit]

Others, from the entries & out of my head:

Earth
Strength
Reliability
Order
Creating bonds, links between things, people
Growth
Permanent
Death

Fire
Flames
Chaos
Love, hate, passion, fear, willpower, domination, courage, trust
Power
Life

Water
Resteless
Movement
Random and undecided, unpredictable
Easily changing
Adapting
Transformation
Stimulating growth & life
Ice
Water
Lightning

Wind
Lightning
Calmness
Wind
Connected to the state of being, the creation, auratic transformation and restoration of entities in general
Thoughts & dreams


Of course, since you can strenghten a property, you can also weaken one so all the opposites could be mentioned as well.

What I suggest for chaos vs calmness:
fire > water >> wind > earth
chaotic > restless >> calmness > order

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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[Mina]

Uhm...some of those stuff you listed aren't really properties.  Stuff like wind and fire are the physical form of the element.  I think it'd be more correct to say that the physical form of the element contains all its physical properties, rather than being a property itself.  Also, I think ice is actually a result of water being influenced by earth, so it contains mostly water properties but also some earth properties, similar to the way air is wind that is affected by earth.  And, uhm, isn't lightning still undecided?  

Weakening the influence of an element wouldn't just strengthen it's opposite.  The influence of all three other elements will strengthen proportionately within the car'all.  

Edited by: Mina Aylwin at: 3/2/06 21:21

[so orril miesefer]

Wind = spiritual conections, superior states (like extasis)
Fire = Extreme felings
Earth = Life and death cicle
Water = Mind, control over felings

My reasons: As the wind is the lightest and most abstract thing, it representrs for me the soul, the spirit.

Fire is chaotic, unpredictable, but in the end beautyful, like love and the no so beauty rage.

Everything starts in earth, and everything ends in earth, like the saying "Dust you are, dust you will die"

Water is less chaotic than fire, and more concret than wind, so it represents the mind, that thing that prevents that your fellings make your life a mess.

[Marvin Cerambit]

I know some things aren't 100%, but I just wrote down everything I found in the entries and spells.

Quote:Weakening the influence of an element wouldn't just strengthen it's opposite. The influence of all three other elements will strengthen proportionately within the car'all.

Maybe, but it will still be posible to some extend. For example:
Rise flame vs. Quell flame
Burning Regeneration vs. Boiling Blood

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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[so orril miesefer]

Really, we need to decide what is the lighting, so please don't forget the entry about lighting

[Dreameress]

Hey, Everybody!  ::doesn't actually exist... YET!::

I'm just here on Lightning.

Lightning is no doubt a figment of fire: it contains properties of light and heat, but its incredible speeds and the nature of its effect (electrocution) implies a certain amount of chaos, which may be offered either by wind or water. I would suggest water.

Lighting usually occurs during storms, in which winds are high and which usually involve rain, if not a certain degree of moisture. The winds, which are naturally chaotic during this time, imply a lot of energy in the air, which would help support whatever sort of reaction we wanted to use in our explanation of lightning. We know fire and water are opposite substances with different effects and different ‘purposes.’ My explanation only works by implying some natural animosity towards the two elements that naturally makes it difficult to make xeua links soor between the two. However, the energy in the air causes the two to create a temporary link which causes the phenomenon of lightning. The energy can only maintain this soor link temporarily, so after the initial activity, the links revert back to ahm and the energy is released.

The difficult of this hypothesis is explaining the up-to-down nature of lightning’s path. However, we can interpret it in this way: the upper air naturally has more energy that the lower air. This is observable, as we see cloud moving above as at speeds much more rapid than the objects floating by us. The phenomenon of lighting creates an outlet to get rid of that energy (if you take handful of tea leafs and drop them in a bowl of water, the leafs naturally move away from each other—it’s called diffusion, I think, though biology was a while ago). Lightning, thus, is really a serious of reactions in which water and fire oun create a temporary soor links then return to ahm again, releasing that energy to be used by other fire and water oun below them. The natural, progressive loss of energy through the course of these hundreds of reactions would result in that tapering you see in lightning as it reaches the end of its path.

The term “energy” is probably a little difficult to accept, but perhaps energy, we should say, is always the same, is always made of the same “stuff.” Magical energy is simply energy used for magical purposes, but really shares no other difference to regular, run-of the-mill energy.

I got in a discussion with Koldar years ago concerning lightning. I can’t remember what his argument was, but I distinctly remember him arguing that it was wind. I think the difficulty of accepting the wind proposal is that electricity (we will not use this term, I’m sure, in the explanation of fire since it relates too much to the REAL explanation of fire; that is, electrons), which is essentially what lightning is, does not move through wind unless forced, as in the case of lightning. Electrical currents don’t tend to move through wind with the same remarkable ease as they do water.

So, what does this mean for magic users? Who gets to use lightning?
Obviously, Xeua mages can use lightning due to the soor-part of the explanation. I would argue that fire and water mages can create lightning, but that the spell level would be higher in water than in fire, simply because there just isn’t as much fire oun, on average, in the car’all of natural, free-floating air. A water mage would have to locate enough of these fire oun in order to attach water car’all to them (Sphere Three). A fire mage would just have an easier time finding water oun, though I suppose this proposition is arguable.


Good job on those property lists.  They look like they’re coming along well.  

[so orril miesefer]

Well, I think it's wind because if we give the lighting the property of fire or water many of the wind spells would dissapear, AND
electricity moves in ANY place that have atoms, doesn't matter if water, air or even plastics, if the polarity diference is enought it can move in any place, even in space.
I'ts incredible speed is a property of wind, it's chaotic nature can be a property of wind (wind never follows a pattern), Silfer's and my Ximaxian explanation is:
Wind influenced with the Soór principle that can't move, what happens? the influence is still there, but since it can't free by movement, it makes static charge (yes I know that in REAL world don't happens that, but can happen in Caelereth) eventually it's freed by something that can guide it to: ground, parts less charged, or by influencing wind with Ahm principle.  

For good reasons I don't want to give the lighting to fire or water mages, that's not fair, they can control fellings, temperature, humidity and now electrisity??? don't think so.

Now is a good moment to say that mages of opposite elements can use the spell of the opposite element, IF the spell is made by influencing with Soór/Ahm the ouns of the element.

[Silfer Darkflare]

*Holds Orril back by the collar* Easy...

Lightning being active wind - yes, tis a "possible possibility", why not. I never said anything definite. Two, it being still was in relation to your spell. It being still would be tension. Discharged, it is lightning.

But tis late, life is hard, and thus I shall return.

You who go by the name of Dreamress, do I by unchance know you?

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Our Dreameress starts actually with the letter "R" and ends with "e" and is a pretty "wet" name, if that helps  

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[Marvin Cerambit]

As said before, the link with fire makes a lot of sense. That doens't mean fire mage will be casting lightnings though. Ounia are linked to eachother and changing the properties of one will effect the others. Many things will be possible by more then one sphere, although it might be more difficult with some.

Quote:For good reasons I don't want to give the lighting to fire or water mages, that's not fair, they can control fellings, temperature, humidity and now electrisity??? don't think so.

That's not much of a reason. Wind has things like disappearing and being invisible and it cand do some other mind things as well. You shouldn't look toward this as if wanting to balance the spheres. Also, water already has a ligthning spell. It's very high level though.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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[Rayne (Alýr)]

A wet name? I guess that’s one way of putting it.

::giggles, and a she does her anonymity and invisibility fall away like dust, revealing the dark hair and signature cerulean eyes of a familiar elvish face—well, familiar to some people::

Now Silfer, really, who do you know who could possibly give an explanation like that save you, me, Mina, and Arti? ::smirks at him.:: Though maybe Marvin's at that level now. :: smiles at him:: As I remember, he was progressing rather well when I left.

I just thought I’d come by and poke around a little, and when I saw the lightning discussion all bubbled up again, I couldn’t help but add in my two sans.

I'm sorry if I rained on your parade Orril.

... ::turns to Silfer and whispers:: I don't know him, do I? He's a cute kid.



Arti, I know I’ve just come back, but I’m interested in doing some work on the xeua entry again. I’m concerned about the part of the entry deal with ‘elemental’ links. I’ve thought about it and decided that some parts of the explanation are incorrect because the properties given to the links belong to the oun, not the xeua. In some cases, the behavior of the links is correct, but the explanation is termed in relation to the xeua—that is, the behavior belongs to the xeua—when in fact it would be more correct to say the oun imprints its properties on the xeua connecting it. Does this make sense? I want to move away from the idea of xeua having elemental properties in and of themselves. All links, I think, are identical in nature. The only difference is that Soor links provide a connection with a lot of energy while Ahm provides a connection with very little. This energy, which (in modern day speak) we can understand like a current of electricity, flows through a kind of circuit of Soor links which connect various oun. This energy provides the connected oun with the ability to translate their properties on their car’all.

I realize that explaining it in that way is a little too modern, but I think the explanation works to elucidate the explanation of how magic actually works. Yes, the will controls magic, but how does that actually work? The will controls energy, both physical and spiritual.

An entry on oun also needs to be done. Perhaps that entry will be more of a collaborated effort, given that some of what belongs in that entry will probably be decided in this thread.

Hey, for a definition of oun, maybe this will do:

An oún can be defined as a single unit of which all bodies consist, and which imposes its qualities in degree based on the connections it maintains with surrounding units and in quality by the element with which it is identified: either earth, water, wind, or fire.

I'm thinking we should probably start thinking of creating a Terms entry that would simply list various magical terms and define them--definitions, that's all, used for reference by learning mages.

[so orril miesefer]

*Looks to Silfer, then to Rayne and back to Silfer* Well, it seems thet I must apologise, sorry I was sleepy and with insomnia and didn't knew what I was saying.
*Aproach to Rayane and kiss her hand* Sorry, I must present myself, I'm Orril, one of the newbies and aprentice of Silfer.
I'm a bit confused, someone can explain me this questions:
First: Elemental mages can control the links in car'all?
Second: If that's true, then what's the diference with Xeau magic?

Then, I like the idea of explaining the oún concept, because it's a bit hard to understand  I think that Rayane explanation is aceptable, but sounds like the explanation of atoms, that I think isn't what we are explaining.

Thanks, I will be around this weekend (as always).

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Rayne, Orril, Rayne! (pronounced like "rain")  Give our dream'ress the honour of spelling her name right!  
Look up her teampage and you know who she is!


I still think you take the wrong approach and limit your possibilities if you think too much in earthen terms and physics like here

Quote:electricity moves in ANY place that have atoms, doesn't matter if water, air or even plastics, if the polarity diference is enought it can move in any place, even in space.

Rayne used it very carefully and only in two places despite her long post.

And Orril, please use a spellcheck even for your comments - I do it as well if I write more than one or two sentences.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 3/4/06 17:56

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