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Author Topic: Gold value  (Read 5269 times)
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Shayan Ashkani
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« on: 13 December 2006, 22:33:29 »

I'm sorry if this is rather a stupid question but I haven't come across it so far. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough do I have a habit of searching a lot before I write down a question. I might just have missed it.

Where can I find more information about money/Gold?

the reason behind is that I read that even the slowest of Azhorhiran horses would still be worth 10 bags of gold. I just wonder how much that is (and if it's a lot, that if it's  not strange that adventurers rather than nobles have these horses outside of the Azhorhria themselves) (I'm just protecting my character's interests here heheh :p)
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« Reply #1 on: 13 December 2006, 22:52:24 »

Well, Shayan, at least for Santharia there exists currency, see the Santharian Currency entry for details.
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« Reply #2 on: 14 December 2006, 04:23:38 »

Ok thank you...I guess I missed it :)
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Mina
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« Reply #3 on: 14 December 2006, 12:30:36 »

Santharian currency isn't likely to be used by Aeruillians though.  Besides, while we know what the units of the Santharian currency is, we don't really know how much they are worth, or at least that's never been mentioned anywhere I've looked. 
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« Reply #4 on: 14 December 2006, 16:11:19 »

(smoochies Mina, hugs Shayan)   Thanks for asking!   We've needed to know what coins would buy us in Santharia for a while.  It's a project I keep starting on and just never have time to develop.  But here's a little factoid to allow us all to think about it:   The price of bread, interestingly enough, has always served as a 'benchmark' or standard against which to measure a currency's 'value' or inflation/deflation.

So - here's my proposal.

A loaf of Terran bread should cost around

1 Euro / 1.5 Canadian dollars / .7 pounds / 14 schillings / 2 guilders / 2 deutchmarks / 2 Singapore dollars (and you can do any other conversions at [url:]http://www.xe.net/ucc/[/url] yourself!)

That equals .002 gold ounces, more or less.   A Krugerrand (a world-standard gold coin minted in South Africa) was designed to contain one 'troy ounce of 22 karat gold, approximately 33 grams'.    Our Nune / 'goldbard' is pretty much the same size and weight, wouldn't you think?

Given that one Nune/goldbard = 1000 san, 100 od, 10 silver w'aer....

Then one san equals .001 ounce (or is my math off by a factor of ten?  Someone who can actually do arithmetic, help, please! I hope it's right, because then...)

A  loaf of bread should cost.... two copper sans!

That sounds about right for the basic staple of central Sarvonia (of course this extrapolation and any further prices derived from it will only apply within the Kingdom of Santharia, which uses this standard currency).

Now, working from that 'exchange rate', as I've reverse-engineered it, we could determine what other things should cost.  Each 'price' can of course be adjusted to take into account its local rarity or abundance, trading bargains, seasonal availability, and quality - but it would give us a start.  That way we don't have a single stallion costing ten bags of gold coins, for example (a million dollars for a horse, for pity's sake?) or extravagant RPG-based claims that throw our values and costs out of proportion.

I began, way back when, a sort of 'Chandler's List' of basic goods that could be available for purchase, and actually had it in a table for use by developers and roleplayers alike.  I'll look for it and post it here, and people can throw in comments and critiques (and additions) as they see fit, ok?


 
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #5 on: 14 December 2006, 18:08:34 »

Yes, do that. We need some bigger standards as well..


BTW:
1loaf = 1kg normal bred bought in the bakery (and not in a cheap discounter) is minumum 2€.
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« Reply #6 on: 14 December 2006, 18:39:50 »

@Talia: Well, that's today's value of a loaf of bread - 30 years ago it was perhaps half the price. So we might have to keep in mind that we can't directly relate prices to today's values but find some sort of realistic compromise which somehow corresponds to the "value" of a price.

Anyway, we need to define the standards here, I'm all for it! Will read up here later!  thumbup
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« Reply #7 on: 14 December 2006, 19:22:42 »

30 years ago? No, before the Euro!

Well, maybe we should strive for:
How much money did a "insert craft" get for a days work?So- how long has a smith, a merchant, a .. to work till he has earned a loaf of bred?

I'm sure there is already something on the net - but where!!!
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« Reply #8 on: 14 December 2006, 21:50:38 »

If you look at D&D there are plenty of posts on other forums where people want to relate a gold piece to real world money.
Take you pick :)

Quote
I think you guys were missing the question. He wants to know how much gold it would cost average Joe farmer to feed and clothe his family for 1 year, I think. To make things easy I set 1 year equal to 12 months, each month having 3 10 day weeks.

So based on 7 people, say they each get 1 new set of clothes a year, that would be 7 silver.

Then saying they raise most of thier own food but still need to buy other things an average cost of about 2 silver per day for the whole family. That would be 720 silver for the year.

Then say they have 1 horse/mule to help with the plowing and what not, feed for that horse is 5 copper per day, leading to a total of 180 silver for the year.

So between food, clothes and feed it would be about 91 gold for the year or 2 gold, 5 silver per week.

Quote
Anyhow, I mean to say that it comes down to Farmer John not having any gold, but not needing any, either. I twitch in pain when a small village offers the PC's 150 gp to rescue the priest's daughter, or whatever. Why the hell do these people have all this useless gold sitting around? Anyway, I'm sure you're familiar with that rant.

If you wanted to sit around and buy all your stuff, assuming no level of self-sufficience, it'd be...
15 sp/day for "common meals", or 547 gp and 5 sp/year
2 artisan's outfits/year for Farmer John is 2 gp/year
1 cold weather outfit/year (everyone has one, but figure one outfit lasts 5 years) is 8 gp/year (!!!)
10 peasant's outfits/year is 1 gp/year

That all comes out to 558 gp and 5 sp/year, or ~1 gp and 5 sp/day

I myself however do agree with some posters on that forum that say that the average commoner will never see a gp in his life.
Right, now for translating that to the Santharian dream: i would say that a commoner would get about 1 Silverbard a month. This would mean that he uses about 60 sans to buy food (2 sans for a bread) and clothes, leaving 40 sans for clothing etc. Which means he has to save a long time before he can get new tools. which sounds about right :)
« Last Edit: 14 December 2006, 21:58:07 by Wanderer » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: 15 December 2006, 03:27:59 »

Yes, I'm sure we're 'reinventing the wheel' here, but I want neither to simply take a standard from other fantasy worlds, nor to directly link the Santharian economy to the price of gold on Earth.    My little mathematical exercise was a starting point for discussion and thought - and I see it's working!

Reverse-engineering from Talia's suggestion should confirm our 'gut instincts' as well as my calculations.  In a prosperous kingdom where there is room for art and literature to develop, everyone should be able to afford a loaf of bread a day.  So... what DO smiths and tinkers, weavers and farmers, fishmongers and potters, earn?

  Let's bear in mind that the medieval economy, while it did develop guilds and specializations, still had a sizable proportion of people who were not specialists (in the sense that they did not perform one task which they then traded for money to represent their time spent, as we do today to obtain most of the necessities of life, but rather that they grew their own vegetables, slaughtered their own meat when they could afford to, made their own tools, cleaned their own houses, and so on - or at the least, traded and bartered and bought within their own communities for the supplies and services)

Let's do some research and see how Terran medieval values transfer over to Santharian ones.  Should be interesting!
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« Reply #10 on: 15 December 2006, 04:22:42 »

Well, I have here with me the resource book Judy once mentioned and I acquired called "Fief. A Look at Medieval Society from the Lower Rungs". Here  we have some numbers on currency and wages.

It is of course horribly difficult to make precise statements who earned how much, because there were severe differences depending on the time, the location one lived in, even the coins were partly very different, though they had the same name in the middle ages.

Fief has as the standard currency the

- livre (20 sou, 240 dernier)
- the sou and the dernier
 (=French currency).

In England 1 pound sterling was worth about 1/4 livre and the silver mark was worth about 13 1/3 sou.

A list of crafter and servant wages for England shows the following wages per day, to give you an idea:

- Armorer: 18 d/week
- Carpenter: 3 d
- Carter with cart: 4 d
- Dairymaid: 2d/month (with special rights to get a certain amount of cheese and milk etc.)
- Harper: 5 s
- Hunts master: 1/2 d
- Hunts master, berner: 3 d
- Hunts master, royal: 12 d
- Mason: 3 d
- Musician: 7 1/2 d
- Reaper of Binder: 4 d
- Shepherd: 6 s/year
- Swinherd: 5 s/year
« Last Edit: 15 December 2006, 04:24:33 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged



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« Reply #11 on: 15 December 2006, 10:02:56 »

This is going to be one of the most influential entrys on Santharia that weve had for a long time. Congradulations on adding this extra mile of depth and creating a realistic economy, one good at a time. Is the price of goods going to be based on DandD at all? Theres a small table in the Players handbook that shows the value of quite a few goods, and extensive prices for magiks, weapons, armor, and misc. goods. i can post it if needed.
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« Reply #12 on: 15 December 2006, 13:30:46 »

OK, here is the ambitious 'Price List' that I began creating way back in.... um....2002... just the rough-n-dirty version to start with.  The prices that are listed are of course inconsistent (the horses!) but have been taken directly from Compendium entries.  At least that way we know where we have to make some minor edits when we do integrate a complete economic system...

It's been posted at least once, but never on this forum, and now that there's some definite interest and some people who might be able to help out to work all together in the true Santharian spirit of co-creation, I'll gladly repost and reformat (I HATE posting tables!) so we can all have some place to start!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ITEM       AMOUNT         PRICE         DESCRIPTION
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Apples, fresh   1 basket (about a hafeb’s weight)      A basket of fresh, ruddy apples, glowing with colour and health
Apples, dried   1 od of dried apple rings      Dried and chewy rings of apple, strung along a short loop of rope
                     
Bread, wheaten    1 loaf      A crusty loaf of home-baked bread, brown and sustaining
Bread,  Golden Rain   1 loaf      A white loaf baked from premium grain, its texture chewy and resilient
         
Bread, barley   1 loaf      A round, heavy brown barley loaf
Butter, Stratan (import)   1 block (about an od’s weight)      A deep golden colour, this imported butter is sold in small unglazed clay pots to keep it fresh and cool
Butter, local   1 block (1/10 heb = 1 od)      A pale yellow with a creamy texture, this fresh butter is delectable
         
Candle, tallow   4, each a handsbreadth in length   Cheap   These tallow candles burn quickly and smell faintly of pig meat – but they’re cheap and easy to find
Candle, candlebush wax   1, a hand-n-half in length   Most expensive   This elegant herb candle has a natural pinkish colour and gentle fragrance
Candle, beeswax   Sold in pairs, a hand-n-half in length   Medium   The honey-scent and long-burning qualities of beeswax make these candles popular
         
Chisel, for wood   ½ fore in length       A smoothed wooden handle and sharp, angled steel blade make this chisel useful for woodcarvers
Chisel, for stone   ½ fore to 1 fore      This solid cylinder of steel, with a heavy head and sharp tip, must be a stone chisel
         
            
Cloth, cotton, undyed   1 ped   1 – 2 erg   Undyed and handspun cotton is woven into this simple cloth in natural shades
Cloth, Caltharian   1 ped    2 – 3 erg   Brightly dyed in gaudy patterns, this cloth is unique to the Caltharian tribe
Cloth, Shendarsilk   1 ped      An expensive artisan’s fabric from the nomadic Shendar of the Rahaz’Dath
Cloth, Yuatu’way fiber    1 ped  (One cart =  2 Azhorhrian horses…)   Very expensive!
   Made from the fiber of the totit by the desert Sory’int, this pricy fabric has a delicate strength and lovely sheen
Cloth, wool   1 ped   4 – 6 erg   Sturdy woolen cloth will keep you warm in winter and comes in various weights for various purposes
         
         
         
Cow, milch   one 2 – 4 year-old animal      A widehipped dairy cow with gentle brown eyes and small, trimmed horns
Cow, meat   one 2 – 4 year-old animal      This small but beefy bovine looks to have plenty of good eating on her…
         
Eggs, Taenish, fresh   Five, in a plaited straw wrap, fresh      Five farm-fresh eggs are carefully lined up within a plaited straw braid, a loop at the top so they can be carried or hung until needed
Eggs, Taenish, ready-to-eat   Two, boiled / pickled / salted      Two brown-shelled eggs are cushioned in a little twist of braided straw, fully cooked and ready to eat.
         
         
         
Firestarter set   One pouch      A waterproofed leather pouch holds a chunk of flint, a finger’s worth of steel, and some  ‘punk’ (powder-dry wood/fungus) for tinder
         
         
Fish, Barsa   One fore-length fish, ungutted      A plump fish the length of one’s arm, with metallic scales and small fins
Fish, Bonehead, fresh   Four large fillets, unboned      
Fish, Bonehead, dried   Twelve fillets, dried or smoked      These brown, flaking fillets have been smoked to preserve them for travel
Fish, Evoor (used as bait)   One dipper of chopped bait      A fishy-smelling little bucket of chopped Evoor fish pieces, for bait
Fish, Mithanjor (as bait)   One bucket (several firkins)      These tiny silver fingerlings are generally used only as bait by humans.
Fish,  Mithanjor (fresh)    One dipper (about two cups)      Although often considered baitfish by humans, these little silvery fish are a delicacy in the dwarven diet.
Fish,  Sunset   Two unscaled fillets, boned   (more expensive)   The sunset-colored scales are left along one side of these flaky white fillets to prove the fish’s species
Fish, Yellowtail   One fore-length fish, ungutted   (cheap, popular)   A whole, ungutted fish gives you a dead, milky stare, its yellow fins and tail jutting stiffly away from its body
‘Fish’,  Whale    One heb of fresh whale meat      This chunk of whale meat is a dark red, almost purplish in hue, with a cushion of blubber along one side
         
         
Fleece, Cuncu   Popular, higher quality      
Fleece, Sawis, black   Expensive!      
Fleece,  Sawis, regular   Commonly available      The wavy wool of this common Sawis fleece comes in various off-whites and brown shades; the back is soft-tanned
         
Fur, Tarep (domestic rabbit)   Ten – twelve skins as a miniature bale   inexpensive   Quickly-tanned rabbit skins are not very supple, but the fur is soft and inexpensive, sold in bales of a dozen
Fur, Mimsy (small mammal)   Ten – twelve skins as a miniature bale   medium   
Fur, Leapor (wild hare)   Ten – twelve skins as a miniature bale   Popular import   These wild hare skins are imported from the northern regions; the fur is warm and the leather below flexible
Fur, Wolverine (rare import)   Single skin, stretched, suppled, tanned   pricy   Long, silver-tipped fur on this pelt has the quality of not freezing up when breathed on – popular for hood linings
Fur, Nul’tum (very rare, northern)   Single skin, stretched, suppled, tanned   Insanely pricy...   The luxuriously soft fur of the Northern Nul’tum is without peer, making this pelt an expensive luxury
Fur, Argrothin Bear   Single large hide, stretched, tanned   expensive   A stretched bearskin, over a pallet in area, with the head and paws carefully tanned out as well, for a floor covering
Fur, Capricus ( wild goat)   Single medium hide, tanned   Med/high   This tanned hide has a rather goatish scent, but the hand-length, dark thick fur is appealing and warm.
         
         
         
Grapes, Bardavos, fresh   Single bunch (about an od)      A cluster of succulent purple grapes, their skins tart and their flesh sweetly juicy, popping in the mouth like wine
Grapes, Bardavos, dried as raisins   1 scup ( ¼  of a dipper)       These wrinkled black raisins are full of concentrated Bardavos flavor
         
Grain, Golden Rain   1 sack (about a fore long, 10 ods in weight)   expensive   
Grain, wheat         
Grain, oats         
Grain, barley         
Grain, rye         
         
         
         
Goat, milch   one 1 – 5 year-old animal      A shaggy goat with slotted yellow eyes, stubby horns, and a full milk bag
         
Garthook, hen, live, (domestic fowl)   One 3 month – 2 year old bird      
Garthook, male, live   One 3 month – 2 year old bird      
Garthook, meat (poultry)   One bird, plucked and gutted      
         
         
         
Horse, Azhorhrian (imported)   One gelded, healthy animal    600 nune / goldbards – 1 mithrene   The acme of horseflesh, these stunning beasts are rarely found outside ***, and then only as geldings
Horse, Kev’lor, mare /gelding      80 – 300 gold nune    This huge beast is a northern Kev’lor warhorse, out of most pocketbooks
Horse, Kev’lor, stallion       100 – 500 gold nune   This gigantic stallion is an intemperate Kev’lor warhorse from the north
Horse, Rusik,  gelding      40 – 70 gold nune   A leggy mustang from the plains of ***, the Rusik gelding has stamina and speed, if not elegance.
         
Horse, common   Price varies wildly depending upon age, gender, condition, and market   5 –  10 gold nune   This common equine has four legs, a head, and a tail, but its most significant feature is the broad back which will carry humans reliably – and this form of transport finds its own food along the way
         
         
         
I         
         
         
J         
         
         
Kao-Kao (confectionary)   Sold in rough chunks, small slabs, or as various cast shapes and sizes   About --   for 5 muts   This sweet chocolatey substance from the Kaouje Bean is said to be addictive – but who cares when their mouths are full of delectable flavour?
         
Knife, iron, eating   One utensil      A common eating knife, with a wood or bone handle; the tip is pointed but the single edge relatively dull
Knife, steel, defense   single weapon, price varies by blade length, steel quality, and forgemark      A fighting knife, used primarily for cutting or slashing; double-edged steel often with a leather-wrapped handle
Knife, steel,  multipurpose   2 spans to a half-fore steel blade      This steel work blade is a handy size for a belt knife, useful for whittling, cleaning hooves, cutting apples, or what-have-you around the farm
         
         
Lantern, tin, pierced tin panes         A tall tin box, its sides pierced in decorative patterns to let candlelight through, with a metal loop atop, is the common lantern, often locally made
Lantern, tin, glass-paned         This tin frame holds four small glass panes around a tin base with candle and tin top with hanger; it casts more light than the common pierced lantern
         
Maid’s Ease ( sweet raspberry)   1 dipper (about two cups)      Deep pink or scarlet berries are made up of tiny fleshy globules; both tasty to the palate and calming to the soul
         
Milk, cow’s   1 firkin (about 6 cups)      This wooden firkin holds a good amount of fresh cow’s milk, the cream floating thickly on top
Milk, goat’s   1 mug (about 2 cups)      A clay mug is full to the brim with goat’s milk, its faint yellow tinge proclaiming its health and vigor
Milk, sheep’s   1 barrel (about 10 firkins)       This barrel sloshes with a good ten firkin’s worth of sheep’s milk, doubtless bound for the cheesemaker’s
         
         
Nut, Mutnut (fresh, edible)         
Nut, Mutnut (dried, sold as weights)   100 dried hearts, each weighing 1/10 of an od,  1/100 of a heb   1 heb (by weight) for a copperbard   Brown and wrinkled, smoothed to a high polish, and comfortingly heavy in the hand, these little nuggets are muts, the dried heart of the Mutnut sold as weights for the marketplace
Nut, Doch (prepared)   1 scup (½  cup)      Salty and addictive little morsels, doch nuts are sold in twisted cones of brown paper, stamped with a squirrel
         
         
         
O         
Oil, vegetable-expressed (   1 barrel      
Oil, fish-expressed (Evoor)   1 tun ( large barrel, irregular volume)      
         
         
         
Psittae (small cagebirds)   Two birds (mated pair)      These bright, noisy little birds are always sold in bonded male/female pairs and thrive on attention and seed
         
         
         
Redberries (small, tart fruit)   1 dipper (about two cups)      The tart redberry is rarely eaten out of hand, but makes a wonderful jam/jelly
         
         
Saw, carpenter’s   One small saw      A carpenter’s saw is about a fore’s length, with a forged and crimped toothed blade handled at one end
Saw,  forester’s   One large saw      This large double-handled saw has a sharp-toothed blade about a ped’s length and is used for cutting trees
         
         
         
Sheep, Cuncu (wool breed)   1 healthy animal, 1 – 5 years      A fluffy, round animal with large dull eyes and a thick fleece in various natural off-white to tan shades
Sheep, Dor’iyn (milker)   1 healthy animal      This wooly beast is good mostly for converting grass into sheepmilk, which in turn becomes a rich cheese
Sheep, Sawis (wool breed)   1 healthy animal      The deep black fleece of the Sawis is coveted by weavers as it needs no dying and is naturally colour-fast
         
Shovel, wooden   1 implement      The wooden shovel is cheaper than its metal cousin, often hand-carved by the remote or poorer peasants and farmers
Shovel, metal blade   1 implement      This wooden-handled shovel has a squared steel blade set at its end and cuts through even packed dirt easily
         
         
         
Spoon, wood   one eating utensil      A wooden spoon is usually handcarved by its owner, but particularly well-worked exemplars may be purchased as inexpensive gifts
Spoon, iron / tin    one eating utensil      This metal spoon has a deep bowl and a hole punched through the top of the handle so that it may be hung
Spoon, silver   one eating utensil      A silver spoon leaves no bitter taste in the mouth, so the nobles who use this elegant utensil say
         
         
Sword, human-forged steel         
Sword, dwarven-forged steel         
Sword,  custom-made steel         
         
Taenish, (domestic fowl), hen, live   One bird, 4 months – 2 years      
Taenish, rooster, live   One bird, 4 months – 2 years      
Taenish, poultry, prepared   One bird, headed, plucked and gutted      
Taenish, poultry, unprepared   One bird, hung with feathers et al      
         
Torch (cheap light source)   1 prepared split of wood, bound with tarred straw      
Trysters (an edible mollusc)   1 dipper (about two cups)      
         
Tarep (domestic type of rabbit), live   Sold in male/female breeding pairs      
Tarep ( rabbit),  meat   One skinned and gutted carcass      
         
Tea, Baian Cha (golden brew)         
Tea, Maid’s Ease (raspberry leaves)         
         
         
         
         
         
         
U         
         
         
         
V         
         
         
         
         
Waterberry (sweet blue berries)   1 dipper (about two cups)      This delectable blue berry is best eaten warmed by the sun, but is a sweet indulgence however consumed, including dried, chilled, or as a syrup
         
Wine, Artiwine         
Wine,    Bard's Own   
Wine,      
Wine,         
Wine,         
         
         
Wild Boar, meat   One haunch or fore (1/4 carcass)      A strong-tasting and gamy meat, wild boar is nonetheless esteemed for its rarity and considered a delicacy by those who can afford to hunt or buy it
« Last Edit: 15 December 2006, 13:34:47 by Bard Judith » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: 15 December 2006, 15:50:46 »

Am i missing something here? i see items, amounts and descriptions, but i think the prices escaped :) Or i'm just not seeing straight :)
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« Reply #14 on: 15 December 2006, 21:52:54 »

In case you wanted some RL examples to compare with: Medieval Sourcebook: Medieval Price List.
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