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Author Topic: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)  (Read 11242 times)
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Philosophical freaky guy
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« Reply #15 on: 10 January 2007, 13:14:57 »

Why do you hate me so much dude? Cant we just agree upon the fact that we see fantasy worlds in a different way? I don't base EVERYTHING upon roleplay and you don't even have to LOOK at the stuff i post if you think it's stupid. Although i AM sorry that i offend, well i guess i just plain get you pissed off.
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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #16 on: 10 January 2007, 19:02:48 »

'Drow' is copyright protected if I'm not mistaking.
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« Reply #17 on: 10 January 2007, 20:29:09 »

There are some mentionings of the word "drow" however on the site still from a long time ago as for example Viresse used that term in her novel - these still need to substituted with another term. Santharian dark elves are not drows, and if the term is copyright protected as well, the more it has to go.
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« Reply #18 on: 11 January 2007, 03:52:23 »

Actually, I've been looking into that, Art, to see if it needs to be replaced.

I can find no copyright reference for 'drow' specifically to Wizards of the Coast or TSR.

According to one source, "the word "drow" wasn't made up by gamers; it's an alternate English spelling for "trow," the Shetlander word for the Scandanavian troll/dwarf/dark elf (generally called dvergar or svartalfar in the Norse)."

Monstropedia (which see!) says in more detail: "British Isles folklore:

In the Orkney Islands, the Trow or the black elves are similar to the Svartalfar or to Scandinavian trolls or dwarves, and inhabit mines and caves. They may be either good or evil, but the evil variety are more common.

The Drow or the dark elves are the Shetland Islands equivalent of the Trow, but unlike the trow, they are thought of as exclusively evil. They are tiny elves known for their mining and metal-working, not unlike dwarves. A useful way to envision them may be as evil, subterranean counterparts to tiny shoemaker elves.

In Irish mythology, a drow is a stone monster of the Fomori, similar to the Troll in Scandinavian folklore. "

However...

"The drow, as they appear in fantasy fiction and games, were created by Gary Gygax, and appeared in the 1979 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons module, Hall of the Fire Giant King. They were first mentioned in the Dungeons & Dragons game in the 1st Edition 1977 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual under "Elf."

"While the drow were designed by Gary Gygax for the Dungeons & Dragons world of Oerth, they may be found in many other published and gamemaster-created campaign settings. The creation of the fictional drow was likely influenced by the drow of Scottish myth, "a tiny elf which lived in caves and forged magick metal work." (Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (1970)). Drow are also likley influenced by the fictional dero of Amazing Stories (1940s), an evil 'degenerate' subterrannean race who also enslaved humans..."



In other words, the black-skinned, lavender-eyed, spider-worshipping, cavern-dwelling type of drow are a Gygax invention, and since this site is a Tolkien tribute, NOT a Gygax tribute (shudder), any reference to such should be avoided.  However, the word 'drow' itself is of sufficiently ancient and authentic etymology to be used as a synonym for our 'dark' elves without any difficulty.  I would have to go back and reread Viresse's account to determine if any D&D influences are discernable or potentially objectionable.

The submission above, however, is definitely unacceptable given our strict mandate that concepts be original to Santharia (with the exception of a few 'Tolkien-tribute' entries, which I could list without taking off my socks to count past ten) and copyright-free. 

Hope that helps,
Regards from the masterbard
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« Reply #19 on: 11 January 2007, 04:13:26 »

Well, it wouldn't hurt though if we find a unique word for our dark elves in the long run methinks - despite that the term doesn't seem to be copyright protected property. Then there wouldn't be any mix ups, people taking them for a 1:1 copy of D&D guys if they read the word etc. So in order to define their Santharian character we could as well give them a Santharian name, eh?
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« Reply #20 on: 11 January 2007, 04:33:39 »

How about the Styoertians?
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #21 on: 11 January 2007, 05:34:07 »

Luke, I dont hate you. And we might not even have different views on the ideal fantasy world. But We do need to come to a comprimise on something- what Art's world is/should be like. Im not making the rules, Im just trying to help enforce them
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« Reply #22 on: 12 January 2007, 06:08:14 »

Well, it wouldn't hurt though if we find a unique word for our dark elves in the long run methinks - despite that the term doesn't seem to be copyright protected property. Then there wouldn't be any mix ups, people taking them for a 1:1 copy of D&D guys if they read the word etc. So in order to define their Santharian character we could as well give them a Santharian name, eh?

Similar to the elder scrolls we could propagate our native terms more to be accepted as the standard term for this group:

Móhrhim (dark)
córachrhim (night)
Córrhím (night)
Cóorrhím (coór)
Melórhim (shadow)
glásáj (Sorrow)
móhilrhim (blackness)

opposed to this:
miésrhim (gem)
quaelárrhim
vashénrhim (graceful)
baiánrhim (gold)
eferrhim

(don't beat me because of bad grammar!)

Though one might consider looking for more metaphorical ways to describe their different philosophical alignment.
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« Reply #23 on: 12 January 2007, 08:58:11 »

Lol, i don't even know all those words, so I'm sorry if I don't beat for bad grammar on elf words i shouldn't even know that. If I were THAT smart, all the normal geeks like me would get jealous and kick me off the site, WHOOOOAAAAA, that's totally psychadelic man!!!!
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« Reply #24 on: 12 January 2007, 10:05:17 »

We seem to have at least to 'drow' tribes at the moment:
The Coór'hém
The Móh'rhím

The latter is black-skinned and the counterpart of the Light Elves, but not necessarily drow, while the former is specifically named a Drow tribe, but is "...much like other Drow, [...] raven-haired and pale-skinned".

@Rakshiri: I like your suggestions, but as you can see some are already in use for their kind, especially as tribename. I'd go for something shorter, like dwarf, elf and hobbit, but possibly derived from Styrash. Would Drow be considered outcasts by other elven tribes, or inferior, or as a people went astray? Maybe they consider themselves far from that. You could think of names derived from (just went through dictionary associating):

pure raugií
night cóor (but then without the -rhim, though I dislike the association with Ava's counterpart.)
power ámn
moon silarná (perhaps too much associated with D&D moonelves?)
dawn (short for "time of arrival") áv'jeín 
 
« Last Edit: 12 January 2007, 10:06:53 by Gean Firefeet » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: 12 January 2007, 10:28:36 »

Then how about "Mohrim" as the Tharian for 'dark elf' or 'drow', derived from the Styrash 'Móhrhim'?

The first time it's used in an entry it could be glossed with its definition, as below:

"...much like other Mohrim, or Drow, they are raven-haired and pale-skinned.  These dark elves usually..."

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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #26 on: 12 January 2007, 11:35:16 »

I used to have a good name for Dark Elves/a dark-skinned race.... something dermis.... Sabledermis? Ebondermis? Something more Santharian? Like Móhdermis? Córdermis? Something along those lines.
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« Reply #27 on: 13 January 2007, 01:28:35 »

We seem to have at least to 'drow' tribes at the moment:
The Coór'hém
The Móh'rhím
...

pure raugií
night cóor (but then without the -rhim, though I dislike the association with Ava's counterpart.)
power ámn
moon silarná (perhaps too much associated with D&D moonelves?)
dawn (short for "time of arrival") áv'jeín 
 

I didn't check the tribe names jsut some brainstorming with the dictionary. I'd consider going for something less generic (darkelf=>mohrhim, which is essentially just a transfer) but imply something that in origin only elves distinguished between the two philosophies. So a lightelf could become a darkelf if he changes his belief system and vice versa (in theory)

Thus the general term might have the ending "styáey" (elf) as an individual rather than a tribe.

maybe      phár'már(blood),      eferán(burning),      seorál(builder),      ishím(deceitfulness), guorán(devour) valannía(dreamer),          gurán(disrupt),  ún'jeín(dusk, I use that term as informal term describing ancient darkelves on Nybelmar already though) would be associative words from which they derived a more general meaning.

or maybe Avatékaan/Cortékaan (Follower of Ava/Coor) or something similar.
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« Reply #28 on: 13 January 2007, 02:03:56 »

OK, those are all great etymologies - complete with convincing philosophy -  but those words would all be the elven term for themselves, in styrash.

What I'm suggesting is the common Tharian term - 'Mohrim', a simple word to replace 'drow' (itself not a styrash or sindarim word) , equivalent to 'hobbit' for 'Hobytla' or 'Dwarf' for 'Thergerim'.   Does that make sense?

In which case we would have two new words to add to the vocabulary list.   Three, actually, since I need to make a ThergerimTaal word for 'darkelf' - probably something grudgingly respectful in connotation!  Dwarves don't have negative associations with darkness... :)
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« Reply #29 on: 13 January 2007, 07:05:06 »

What about something not exactly the same, but essentially the same? I was thinking of the Mores or Moors, singular More or Moor (the reference to the Muslim inhabitation of the Iberian peninsula is of course not entirely accidental, and I think, if you would think this very broadly, it could be a nice touch to place our 'drow' not necessarily on the evil side, just as we shouldn't do so with our islamic brethren and sisters, but that's looking at it from a very broad perspective).

There could be loads of stuff done with this, for example a complete new dimension to the expression 'one More' in a bar, considered bad luck by any or all human tribes.

I think this term has the elegance and grace of a single syllable word, as opposite to earlier proposals, while still reminiscent of a Styrash root.

This is my suggestion for the Tharian variant. However, I think the way Rakshiri is thinking is indeed more appropiate for their own naming! I'd also like to hear Arti's opinion on your suggestions, as I think the root in the end has significant impact on the way our 'Drow' will be viewed by the public of readers and compendiumists alike.

Can't wait for the suggestion for ThergerimTaal. What about simply Donkers? ;-)
« Last Edit: 13 January 2007, 07:14:10 by Gean Firefeet » Logged

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- Shakespeare's Twelfth Night
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