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Author Topic: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)  (Read 11250 times)
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Rakshiri
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« Reply #30 on: 13 January 2007, 08:58:41 »

What I'm suggesting is the common Tharian term - 'Mohrim', a simple word to replace 'drow' (itself not a styrash or sindarim word) , equivalent to 'hobbit' for 'Hobytla' or 'Dwarf' for 'Thergerim'.   Does that make sense?

Yes, it does but I'd think how the elves would distinguish each other and from this root other races (e.g. humans) would adopt their version. Mohrim means "Dark Tribe" (or somesuch), I'd look for a term for an individual or a group (not tribe) of individuals. Mohrim just feels a bit too obvious and it has been done already. We also have an actual tribe named that way as Gean pointed out. Or do we want a term solely for the Shadowelves? But they are so secluded that few would have a need to distinguish them and then their already existing term "Morhim" would be entirely sufficient.

Another thought would be that the darkelves call themselves the "Awakened" (avennián) or "Wake" as Coór is supposedly awake and in contrast to Avá who is the dreamress (valannía).

Another more lightelf oriented naming would be Éshstyrán for (false elf/nature), maybe given orcs are called éferaní (the burned one) they'd call them 'Éshaní' (the/a Wrong one)
Catchwords in that direction would sound short and up to the point.


but Arti indeed might know a bit better how he wants his Styrásh to be mutilated and what elves would think and call themselves.
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« Reply #31 on: 14 January 2007, 08:34:01 »

What if they were a violent, unsecluded species, much like the orcs, so that there would be a balance? There seems to be only one violent race that everyone hates, but couldn't there be some sort of dark alliance? It seems hardly realistic that only one small group of species is violent like that. And i understand that there is also gorbas, ogres, and goblins, but those are just very minor races that don't seem to come into the picture much, in war, they seem to only be support units. I'm thinking another main race on the evil side would make the fact that the evil races and their kind are worthy adversaries in war more realistic. How would they win against elves, humans, AND dwarves, brownies and halflings. Not to mention the fact that the dwarves and elves are powerful races to compete with in skirmishes or war, especially dwarves.
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« Reply #32 on: 17 January 2007, 05:08:01 »

Ok, back to the topic here:

- "Móhrhim": Well, we've indeed already used that term to denote the Shadow Elves, so there should be a general term for "dark elves", while the "rhim" of "Móhrhim" means a specific "tribe". So I personally would keep the Shadow Elves as the "Móhrhim".

- "Moor/More" - I'd like something like that very much for the human (more derogatively used) expression. The dark elves in the south (as derivates from the shadow elves) could be seen as elves who have a similar origin as the Shadow Elves, and they've been coming from the "moors" of Fá'áv'cál'âr. So they could be referred to as "Moores" or "Moorers" for example, which could have changed to "Moor" in coloquial talk, and the expression "One more is too much moor." would then be seen as an equivalent to "Too many cooks spoil the meal" (don't know if the English expression exists in that form, though). I think that sounds quite plausible.

- As for the Styrásh expression fo the dark elves: Here Rakshiri has the most valid point I think, because "The Awakened" (or something in that direction) is definitely the heart of what the dark elves are, or as what they interpret themselves. Wtih the Avennorians we however have something that sounds similar to "avennian" so maybe a combination could work like "av'valín" (short for "Wakers from the Dream", see also: male ending here due to cosmological reasons)? Not entirely happy with that construction... Maybe turning it around to "val'avín"?
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #33 on: 17 January 2007, 10:32:25 »

Although I love the noun 'moor' referring to the lone windswept plains, I'm not so taken with it etymologically to refer to a dark-skinned race.  'Moor' and 'Moorish' were historically used to describe the Northern African Muslims of the Middle Ages.  Here's what Wikipedia has to say about them...

""Moor" comes from the Greek word mauros (plural mauroi), meaning "black" or "very dark", which in Latin became Mauro (plural Mauri). The Latin word for black was not mauro but niger, or fusco for “very dark”. In some but certainly not all, cases, Moors were described as fuscus. Due to the relevance of this population in the Iberian peninsula during the Middle Ages, this term may have entered English—and other European languages less exposed to this group—via its Spanish cognate moro. It is important to emphasize that the Greeks and Romans clearly saw black-skinned Africans as a separate group of people. This was highlighted in the Greek word Aithiops, meaning, literally, a dark-skinned person. The word was applied only to some Ethiopians and to certain other dark and black-skinned Africans. With a few poetical exceptions, it was not applied to Egyptians or to inhabitants of northwest Africa, such as Carthaginians, Numidians, or Moors. The understanding of Egyptians as distinct from their southern neighbors is also clear in the ancient iconographic and written evidence. The evidence also shows that the physical type of the Ethiopian inhabitants of the Nile Valley south of Egypt, not the Egyptians, most clearly resembled that of Africans and peoples of African descent described in the modern world as Negroes or blacks. [3]

The derivative Maures described the peoples of North Africa in the Maghreb (west of modern Tunisia). Moors were distinguished from what the Greeks labeled "Aethiopes", or Ethiopians.[citation needed] Herodotus in his “the Histories” described two types of northern Africans: the light skinned Garamentes of northern Libya and the dark-skinned, “Trogdolyte Ethiopians” in the southern Fezzan and northeast Africa. In Frank Snowden’s book “Before Color Prejudice” the Garamentes were sometimes spoken of as “white Ethiopians”: “Melanogaetuli (black Gaetuli) and Leukaethiopes (white Ethiopians). Some Garamentes did live in the modern Fezzan of northwestern Africa and were described by Lucan as nigri (black), furvi (swarthy) and other diverse adjectives. According to the 1st century AD Roman poet Manilius, Moors represented a wide spectrum of color schemes with: Ethiopians, the darkest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and the Mauri, the lightest.

According to the older versions of the Oxford English Dictionary, the Moors, during the Middle Ages and as late as the 17th century, were described as being black, dark skinned, or swarthy in complexion. Modern texts, such as Webster's New World Dictionary, groups all moors together under the terms Arab and Berber which has caused individuals to omit the association with Africans that are racially considered "black". Considering that Berbers were a mixture of various shades of diverse nomadic groups comprised of East Africans, North Africans, West Africans and Sub-Saharan Africans the claims of racial heritage being of one specific group are at best dubious. Historian Wayne Chandler stated, "Although the term Moor has been put to diverse use, its roots are still traceable. Circa 46BC the Roman army entered West Africa where they encountered Africans which they called "Maures" from the Greek adjective 'mauros,' meaning dark or black." Though the word "Moor" may seem to have been meant to indicate Blacks, it in time came to be applied to Muslims in general, especially the Berbers. During the European Renaissance explorers, writers and scholars began to apply the term Moor to Blacks in general. (Information courtesy of Blacks in Antiquity by Frank Snowden, Golden Age of the Moor ed. by Ivan van Sertima, Black Brittanica by Edward Scobie and National Geographic Magazine)"


In other words, we'd be borrowing a Terran word with a lot of existing connotations, 'black-skinned' and 'Muslim' among them, to refer to our elves.   I think it would provide as inaccurate a mental image as 'drow' does for many people (those who are only familiar with the Menzobarran spider-worshipping types from Salvatore...)

I have a difficult enough time fighting fantasy stereotyping with my dwarves (which is why I prefer to refer to them primarily as Thergerim) when I am forced to edit or comment upon yet another stubborn, beer-swilling, jargon-speaking short mass of beard and weaponry from the RPG forum!  It might not be wise to try to use a word so full of Terran history and attributions, especially if meant derogatively....

Just my two sans!

I love "val'avín" for the Styrash, certainly!  Wouldn't humans be most likely to simply corrupt the darkelves' own word for themselves?   "Valvin" or "Falvin" would be how the dull-eared Men would hear it... :)     It could then undergo a consonant shift to become a rude expression:  "The Fallen Vallen" or some such...
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #34 on: 17 January 2007, 11:33:02 »

I have a difficult enough time fighting fantasy stereotyping with my dwarves (which is why I prefer to refer to them primarily as Thergerim) when I am forced to edit or comment upon yet another stubborn, beer-swilling, jargon-speaking short mass of beard and weaponry from the RPG forum!  It might not be wise to try to use a word so full of Terran history and attributions, especially if meant derogatively....

Just my two sans!

I love "val'avín" for the Styrash, certainly!  Wouldn't humans be most likely to simply corrupt the darkelves' own word for themselves?   "Valvin" or "Falvin" would be how the dull-eared Men would hear it... :)     It could then undergo a consonant shift to become a rude expression:  "The Fallen Vallen" or some such...

Isn't that all Dwarves are? *Hides from barrage of books, some quite hefty, others surprisingly light, yet still cabable of papercuts*
Idea for an epic poem- The Fall of (the?) Vall
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« Reply #35 on: 17 January 2007, 14:31:38 »

Quote
I'm not so taken with it etymologically to refer to a dark-skinned race. 
Um, shadow elves are dark-skinned, but dark elves actually have very pale skin.  But I agree, "Moor" is probably not a very suitable name for dark elves. 

I'm thinking "móh'styáey" is probably the term elves (other than dark elves) use to refer to dark elves.  It literally means "dark elf".  I also agree that something along the line of "Awakened Ones" would a suitable term for dark elves to refer to themselves with.  Perhaps it could be derived from something like "Avenni'anhé" (not sure if I got one that right)?  I think though, that it's more likely the human term for dark elves (assuming they don't simply call them dark elves) derive from the elven term, not the dark elven term.  Dark elves have historically been enemies of humans, so I don't think they'd have picked up too many words from each other. 
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« Reply #36 on: 17 January 2007, 17:57:24 »

Judy, I read exactly the same text :)

I can understand your feelings on 'Moores', I suppose you're right (though I wander how many people do know the term). Most importantly however, I think we're getting somewhere with the new elven suggestions and I also recommend taking a name derived from there.

I'm not into the origin of the races much, but Art, do you suggest your name invented by 'elves' or by 'dark elves', because I think Mina has point in what he says.

Should "val'avín" be the name, I consider stuff like Vallen/Vallens or Vall/Valles, Valin/Valins all proper derogatives for humans! Thanks for the input so far by the way, I think we're getting somewhere.
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« Reply #37 on: 19 January 2007, 05:15:35 »

Point taken on the "Moores" - the term might indeed have too strong associations with an Earthen term, especially if used derogatively as well. I guess there should be such a derogative term however for the humans to refer to these elves, as they wouldn't think high of them. Dark elves could be interpreted as spawns of evil, as the "black men (elves)", part of horror stories and such, you know. Horror stories with dark elves might be even more effective, as another race is even more mysterious as the simple "black man" to scare children with.

Any combination of "móh" and "stýr" however I find way too flat and obvious. The ("good") elves would have other interpretations of their brethren than stating that they are simply "elves, who are of dark colour (or spirit)". Something like the "Fallen" would be a possibility (the fall = chuhán, probably identical with the verb), possibility would be "chuhrín" for example. This word has something aggressive and breaking in its melody (I'd pronounce it like "tschuchrin" in German), so this could fit methinks.
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #38 on: 21 January 2007, 05:06:43 »

Speaking of which...why do we have so few "dark men"?  While we do have some "evil" tribes, they seem to fall more under the realm of being barbaric, chaotic or blood thirsty, rather than followers of the dark like elven drow.
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« Reply #39 on: 21 January 2007, 06:53:48 »

*Slaps Drasil* You shouldn't be using the word 'drow' anymore  angry
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« Reply #40 on: 21 January 2007, 07:10:01 »

*sighs*  Whats the new word again Moh'something or other.  :P
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« Reply #41 on: 21 January 2007, 11:02:26 »

No arguing you two!  You are both wrong:  'drow' isn't copyright, so not forbidden, but on the other hand we don't have a replacement word yet.  That is what this thread is currently discussing... (looks sternly over her glasses at them)

"chuhrín" is Art's most recent suggestion, and I like it.   That could give rise to the human expression 'tchuri' - pronounced 'CHURR-ee'...or 'turin'  - 'TOUR-een' to replace the Tharian word 'drow...

I think 'turin' has a nice look and sound, but let's see what others have yet to contribute!
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« Reply #42 on: 21 January 2007, 12:50:56 »

The problem there is that when I hear or see the word 'Turin', I cannot help but think of the Shroud of Turin, the shroud in which Jesus Christ was supposedly lain in death and into which his image is said to have been divinely burned.  I think that it may be a bit too Terran... perhaps something like 'Tor' or 'Torin' to introduce a slightly different pronunciation and look to make it more Caelerethian?
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« Reply #43 on: 21 January 2007, 17:25:19 »

I'm thinking that Torin would sound like the big bullish creatures off world of warcraft, and it doesn't sound very elvish.
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« Reply #44 on: 21 January 2007, 23:13:20 »

Not to mention the ancient (yet quite funny) game of Torin's Passage..
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