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Author Topic: The Gibbering Jackal of Eyelia  (Read 7884 times)
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #15 on: 14 April 2007, 18:31:04 »

Mira, I actually like 'jackal' - what's wrong with that?  It's a canine creature, except more aquatic, and how can you resist the name "Gibbering Jackal", for goodness sake?  :)   

In general, Mirmec:  I still think their abilities are unbalanced (too dangerous); I'd like to see them all be able to secret a poison that affects animals their size (or smaller)  but must be collected and concentrated to kill a human.  Animals rarely have defensive 'overkill' - they have weapons that protect them in their environment and against their common predators, but any animal that is at the top of its food chain unnaturally (such as with this deathly poison) will unbalance the food chain.   

It's a slight change that strengthens their realism:   it means that humans need to be cautious around them but aren't necessarily in danger of death - it provides a reason for them to have been in the Bestiary (so that their poison COULD be collected and used as a weapon) without slaying too many of their keepers - and it gives them a natural defense against most predators.   If you balance that 'weakening' of the poison against giving it to every animal (rather than restricting it to the matriarch, which is rather awkward - how does nature determine who gets the poison sac?), I think they'd be a very workable animal.    (Did I mention I love that they are semi-aquatic?)
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Mirmec Rethindor
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« Reply #16 on: 15 April 2007, 02:04:41 »

Good point Bard Judith. They would be overrunning everything if they had that powerful a poison. Ok, i will rework it and tone down the poison, to affect smaller animals possibly rodent sized or less? And that would open up a uses category i guess as you say people could collect the poison sacs possible for apothecary/assassin type poison? Rare but not unattainable. Maybe one exposure to the poison would have flu like effects on a person, so we get the same warding affect of intruders. So when you run into them and get attacked you get sick, you just don't die.

Ok, i will get that revision in by tomorrow. its going to storm here today i think, so not much computer usage later on today   ;)
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #17 on: 15 April 2007, 02:43:32 »

No, Judith, I definatly agree with Mira on this point.  The reason we asked him to change it from Hyena was because terran Hyenas are not aquatic animals, and therefore we will not butcher the word by creating a beast that does not share any of its terran properties.  Using the word Jackal brings up the same problem, because, if I remember correctly, it is also a desert beast of Egypt, not a water one.  Thus, Mirmec, unless you can find an aquatic dog-like animal, I\'d suggest following Mira\'s advice and making up your own word.

Also, about your whole argument with the Moss Lizard, he is able to use the term \"lizard\" because it shows the properties of that animal.  As you said, it is clearly a cross between the two, thus it will not contain all of its terran attributes, but has enough to make it distinguishable.  An example of a term he could not have used would have been something along the lines of Iguana as it is nothing like an iguana.  Also, just because something is made in the Royal Bestiary of Eyelia doesn\'t mean it needs to have a terran name, like you seem to be convinced.  A made up name can carry just as much weight and can even sound better.  For example, Judith\'s term \"Flittermice\" is much more impressive, IMHO than simply using the word bat.
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Mirmec Rethindor
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« Reply #18 on: 15 April 2007, 10:39:51 »

Drasil i suggest you read up on jackals they are found on three continents in a variety of environments ((asia, africa and europe). I think jackal is fine. In fact if you read closely about Jackals you will realize they are a generic name for many canine type creatures and since the whole impetus of your first point was hyenas were not feline but canine -- i chose a more generic sort of animal that was canine.

Anyway consider can people not use the word flower because we dont allow earthly flower words in Santharia? no we allow flowers, and fish and all sorts of terran words for creatures and plants. In fact, i bet we could look at a whole bunch of compedium entries where terran animal names were used to describe the creatures. here are just a few i find right off the bat:

Baneg Cattle
Havach Ox
Strata Milking Cow
Avenor Cat
 Barn Cat
 Brendolian Cat
 Puvtar Cat
 Strata Cat
 Wilderon Cat
 Ximax Cat
 Hunting Hound, Eophyr.
 Hunting Hound, Zeiphyr.
 Jhomcholan Diver, Dog
 Kaal Bloodhound
 Kardión Hound
 Rimrunner Terrier, Dog
Azhorhrian Horse
Sarvonian Heavy Horse
 Cuncu Sheep
 Dor'iyn Sheep
 Goat, Cragok
 Goat, Domestic
 Goat, Ho'loch
 Goat, Inja
 Goat, Milch
 Sawis Sheep

all of these are accepted Compedium entries on animals. and they use terran terms to describe what they are. Sheeps, goats, horses, whatnot

now if you want to change the rules of the Compedium and have all those entries struck out from the Compedium then i may go along with you there Drasil. But if you want to arbitrarily change a rule for your personal choice that is a different matter.

the whole idea is to have uniform accepted animals that follow the template, of which i have followed.

However if you want to go into all the Goat entries and now called them curly horned Garrumbs, i mean that is fine. But you would have to get that accepted by the Compedium editor. After all Garrumbs are a made up name. Which is what you are suggesting. We must have made up names not terran names for animals.

but as it stands that is not common practice in the Compedium for naming animals. What i have done combine a terran term with a defining adjective is common way for animals to be designated in the Bestiary section of the Compedium.



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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #19 on: 15 April 2007, 22:49:36 »

Mirmec, you prove my point.  Go read each of those entries and it will show a terran-like cat dog ect.  Also, the reason we had you change hyeana was not because you used the word feline, which could have easily been changed, but because your entry did not reflect what a typical hyena would do, just like it doesn't reflect a jackal.  If we had a problem with the word feline, we would have asked you to change that word, because jackals aren't feline either.  You seem to be completley missing the point of the change.  We ask you to change it, not because we don't want people to use the word jackal, but because your animal is not close enough to the terran jackal for it to be considered the same thing.  Its like me creating a panther called the Gibbering lion.  Though the two are similar, it wouldn't be accepted under that name because of the terran differences between the two.
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #20 on: 15 April 2007, 23:11:07 »


Drasil!  Why on earth... er... why on Caelereth would you WANT an animal to be 'close enough to the terran jackal'?

We ARE creating a fantasy environment here, and realism and fantasy require a balance - a delicate balance where people's personal preferences often tip the scales.  In this case I think your logic is leading you into error:   It would be like you creating a large feline which lives on ice floes and catches fish in its teeth, then naming it "The Gibbering Panther".   It is not an 'error of nomenclature' so much as a dispute as to what constitutes feline behaviour.


Would you insist we rename the 'Dragonfly' because it in no way resembles the Terran dragonfly (but instead is an actual 'fly' or insect which resembles a miniature dragon!)?   I would hope not - the author used a very creative spin on an 'ordinary' name.   'Flittermouse,' by the way,  which I love as well, is an authentic medieval title for the bat... though mice do not often fly, nor use radar, nor hang upside down to sleep.   The Ximax cat has abilities far beyond the Terran (unless you believe what some catlovers claim for their felines... :) )

My point is that using 'jackal' adequately suggests a small, scavenging, four-legged creature with 'canine' traits.    Making it aquatic and adding poison is the part where this becomes an effective fantasy entry.   Your refusal to consider any traits outside of 'normal' jackal - or indeed 'normal canine' behaviour I find puzzling - we are not, after all, trying to fill in the bestiary with ordinary Terran species with alternate names, a point I think Mirmec identified correctly and expressed (if rather hamhandedly) in his last post.

Please understand that I am in no way attached to the 'jackal' name particularly, as might be assumed...    I simply would like to act as a mediator to resolve this and help move this entry forwards, and I don't want it to bog down in a morass of misunderstanding or petty argument.  ( For example, Mirmec, there is no need to tell Drasil to read up on jackals.  That is your job as an entry creator, IF you want to use the name!   Convince him with interesting, integrated, appealingly presented fact and fiction rather than bludgeoning him with emotional reactions, ok? ) 

Perhaps we can let Mirmec make his planned revisions and think the comments over before we come back to the issue of the name?  Let's see what might happen in that revision that might give us some ideas, and take some time to all come up with suggestions or further constructive critique.

Regards,
Judith
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #21 on: 15 April 2007, 23:16:04 »

...Judith you know that I don't believe half of the stuff you just accused me of.  To use one of your examples, of course the Ximaxian cat is going to have abilities that far surpass those of a normal cat, but it can still easily be traced back to its terran origins.  For the Dragon Fly, which would be a literal translation between the two worlds, the issue is still the same, it is a Fly, as the name suggests.  While I am not saying that they have to be exact copies of their terran counterparts, as none of my beasts have been anything like that, it would be nice that if you were going to associate a beast with a terran animal, it would be similar on some level aside from the fact they are both of the same general family.
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #22 on: 16 April 2007, 16:55:55 »

True Dragonflies are now called Shimmerwings by the way :) They are mentioned in the Waterfruit entry, and will, one day, be written.. *sighs* one day being the key term of course...

I still agree with Drasil. You can make any ape ( a GROUP TERM) and call it an ape, but you cannot make a gorilla ( a SINGLE TERM) without staying verry close to the terran animal.

Just so with flies, dogs, horses, or even dragons for all i care. group names can freely be used, so the Eyelia Canine would be fine (ugly, but still fine). Calling this creature a jackal is like calling a Thergerim a Human. They are both ffrom the group Greater Humanoids, but anyone would say 'Hey, that ain't no Human! It's one of the garden deco-AAAAAGGHH!!!' (by now the dwarf cuts in.. litterally).

I base names on the pure physical appearance of an animal, as that is the first to be noted by its discoveror, and thus often the first name to become commonly known. Ximaxian cats look like cats, so they are called that way. But so was the Dropcat, and that was technically not a cat at all. (shame Llwy never finished it)
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Avrah Kehabhra

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Takór Salenár
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« Reply #23 on: 16 April 2007, 17:04:17 »

Hmm, when I read Judy's comment earlier and thought about it, I had to agree with her.

My two sans:
I imagine a shakal - a beast which has all the feature which distinc ts a shakal from other canines - its behaviour, its look etc - and then I adapt it to the water. And then I have the Gibbering shakal (water-shakal)

Why not? Don't be too restrictive with name choices. Some things with the same name have a different meaning in different locations.
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #24 on: 16 April 2007, 17:06:40 »

Ooooh.. i like that word! is it a real one?

it's not a common english name anyway, so perfectly acceptable for me.
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Avrah Kehabhra

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Takór Salenár
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« Reply #25 on: 16 April 2007, 17:17:38 »

Ermm, I simply translated the German word for jackal "Schakal" into English, avoiding the "c" ;)

Maybe this would be a solution! LOL
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #26 on: 16 April 2007, 19:49:10 »

(giggles at Mira's analogy before quickly straightening her face....after all, it would never do for the Dwarvenmistress to be caught snickering over a 'lawn ornament' joke......)

I love 'shakal' too - and don't you think that's an awesome compromise?  (says it to herself a few times)

"Shakal.... SHA-kal..... SHAA-kaal..... Gibbering Shakal....."   (starts giggling again and finds that she has to take a drink of water to settle down...)

Mirmec!  Whaddya think?  Could that work for you?
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #27 on: 27 April 2007, 06:33:46 »

Mirmec, how's this entry coming along? There is an Update coming soon, maybe you could make it!
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Avrah Kehabhra

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