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Author Topic: Duchies of Xaramon (and other stuff)  (Read 14547 times)
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #15 on: 25 April 2007, 23:32:31 »

Ok, I did a rework of my crude 'Dwarven Mountains' map of the peninsula, so that will really help for that area.

 Note that as the dwarves of Ximax (pouts at Mina) are considerably more 'social' and interwoven with the cultural fabric of the peninsula, their Thergerim names for the mountains have been almost all adopted (if sometimes adapted) for the local landmarks.   Also note that the 'Zirkimire Mountains' is a blanket name for the four mountain ranges that exist on the peninsula.  This was my best shot at bringing order out of the descriptions given by the original author of the area, and I hope I've done justice to it.


For note:  the vineyards of the Tali Night Vine flourish on the slopes of the Anghorth Alsae, very near TheuAeph.   Volcanic action still takes place throughout the peninsula, mostly in the Wanderers.  I've tried to indicate that with appropriate colouration - the orange areas - as well...




« Last Edit: 25 April 2007, 23:38:55 by Bard Judith » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: 26 April 2007, 03:29:09 »

Difficult to view in its entirety due to the size of the picture - suggest to enlarge first, then right-click and Save As...
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Mina
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« Reply #17 on: 26 April 2007, 05:33:14 »

Opening in a new window works too. 

I'm tired and going to bed soon, so if I'm not making sense, that's probably the reason. 

What do the colours represent? 

I was thinking maybe the Zirkumire could refer to only the northern range (what you list as the Wanderers), while the 4 ranges would be known collectively as the Magic Sickle ranges, because they do seem to form a vaguely sickle-like shape. 

IIRC you described the Dwarves of Hoa Rusun going out to sea to fish.  I think that particular mountain is a little too far from the coast though.  It might also intefere with Land of Withdrawing Waves stuff.  Perhaps you could pick a different mountain instead? 

And finally, what are Chaun and Kerrine? 
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #18 on: 26 April 2007, 11:41:43 »

The colours merely represent which mountains are associated with the range that is also highlighted in that colour.  And I didn't really make the decisions about what was what: I tried to make sense out of the original description and this was my best (clearest) interpretation.    We can probably revise the original but I really prefer to use creative work-arounds and respect the first ideas submitted...  have a look and see what you think!

Yes, the main cavern of Hoa Rusun is located in that mountain but the tunnel system runs from there to the coast.  It's a rather sprawling complex.     What's 'Land of Withdrawing Waves'?  (looks puzzled) Sorry for my ignorance!  I'll do some reading-up tonight...

Chaun and Kerrine were places for development.  I added them because they are described but not developed and need to be located on the close-up map at some point (not because they are associated with the dwarven mountain system any more than, say, Caelum!)
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« Reply #19 on: 26 April 2007, 12:37:48 »

Well, I don't mind so much which name refers to what, as long as a sensible explanation can be found.  Concerning the colours, why is the land to the north and west of the Wanderers coloured differently? 

The Land of Withdrawing Waves is...slightly complicated.  As far as I can tell, it's a strip of seasonally flooded land lying across the only land route out of the peninsula.  The decisive battle in the siege of Ximax was when the dark elves caused the flooding to happen early, destroying the Ximaxian army which was retreating across it.  I'm not sure how exactly this could work though, or where it's actually located. 
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« Reply #20 on: 26 April 2007, 19:38:05 »

Volcanic action.  I did say that.... (grins at Mina)    Since there are still active volcanoes with lava flows beneath them, and 'Flame=Wombed' is described as one of them, that area is the most likely to be still seismically active.  So although that entire area is 'coded' green showing that it belongs to the Wanderers range, the orange overlay shows regions of current volcanic activity (like the Ring of Fire).

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« Reply #21 on: 26 April 2007, 22:45:35 »

I meant the strip of land on the northwestern coast, not the summits of the Wanderers. 

So, any thoughts about the latest map (near the bottom of the first page)?  I'm not quite sure how I should proceed from here. 
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Curgan
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« Reply #22 on: 28 April 2007, 16:12:18 »

I don't know about 'reminiscent of a former glory'...it was never very large, it seems.  I'm thinking it used to be a small city-state that only managed to retain its territory because it was in the right position to act as a buffer between two stronger states (Aqua and Magenta).  Later all of them were reintegrated into Centorauria, but still remained as separate administrative units.  How does that sound? 

Also, I'm wondering if maybe I can remove the land west of the Shivering Wood from Aqua and perhaps administered by a collection of lower ranking nobles.  This would make things less threatening for Ximax, and could perhaps be explained as those land having once been Ximaxian territory? 

To preserve the balance of power sketched out in the first paragraph, perhaps the land near the northern coast(between Horth and the Vontron) forms a separate duchy from Magenta, and historically was also independent?   

Edit: Here's a new picture showing what I'm talking about.  I changed a bit of stuff.  Let's see if it works. 

1. Centorauria becomes fragmented in 617 b.S. as stated in its entry. 
2. Kyrania takes over what is now Magenta. 
3. Horth, Dark Green, and Bright Red become independent, along with Ximax. 
4. The territories return to Centorauria when it is reunified, except for Magenta, which remains with Kyrania. 
5. Ximax later becomes independent again. 
6. Even later, Ximax joins Tharania.  Kyrania has probably collapsed again before then.  Edit: Apparently not.  The history chart doesn't seem to mention Kyrania, but Thar's entry does. 

I'm wondering if maybe the area south of Naios on both sides of the Anaios Gap should be made a separate duchy too.  It was historically Eyelian territory. 

Former glory is a relevant matter. It is different for the Hutu tribe in Africa and the United Kingdom. Anyway, Centoraurians had always an intense sense of freedom and their governing system was quite decentralised, so there won't be a problem of leaving room for local authorities to act. An interesting point -regarding all Centoraurians- would be their ability to elect their duces (with a lifetime service) instead of having hereditary titles.

About 3. Horth was independent when Centorauria collapsed and remained so primarily because it served its neighbours better this way and thanks to its intricate diplomacy.

As for 4. It is a bit unrealistic as when Centorauria united they fell pretty hard on the Kyranian "traitors". It is still undecided whether they ran over the country establishing a friendly-puppet regime or they just conguered most of it. this process starts from 580 bS where the Centorauriasn annnex part of Kyrania.
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« Reply #23 on: 28 April 2007, 16:31:03 »

Still volcanic action, hon!  There are no villages marked on that coast, and no cross-referencing outside of the very old, very short entry on the Zirkumire Mountains (no offense to Thuja, whose original concept it was.   A lot of entries are being gone back to and 'redeveloped' from those original inspirations.  I think of it as part of the deepening spiral of enriching Santharia...)

"The Wanderer Mountains are much like the Anghorth Alsae Mountains. They are tall rugged mountains with the northern slopes rocky with low scrub brush and windswept spruce plants growing upon them. The southern slopes are not as rugged but still not easily traversed and densely covered with pine trees. These mountains are not as tall as the Magic Sickle Range and much of the ice and snow will melt during the summer months."
 
This is all we know about them - but we have not yet decided consistent weather patterns (how far south does the permafrost line extend, which regions have long winters, which have four seasons, which are mostly dry, etc.) so I don't know if this information can be taken for granted.   

   We needed a volcanic region for a number of reasons - I don't recall who by, or when, that was decided - but it  is mentioned in the Gemstones of Santharia entry for one...     I believe Art suggested that a dwarven clan have an active volcanic cavern for some dramatic effect, and I only had one undeveloped clan which would have been suitable - the Xirg-thingamies.   

So having made the area volcanic, it seemed natural to have a coastline which served as an 'outlet' for the volcanic eruptions - rugged fields of lava forms, hardened swirls of obsidian and nasty pitted bubbles of a'a (yes, that IS what it's called!) - in the past.    We now have a great spot for black-sand beaches, dramatic artworks showing fumeroles or hotsprings, and a wildlife habitat for things like Fire Ferrets and Golden Drakes...

Does that work for you?

Hugs, Judy
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Mina
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« Reply #24 on: 28 April 2007, 17:18:58 »

@Curgan: Ah, I had thought that the area remained with Kyrania because there was no mention of it having been reclaimed.  It seems I was wrong.  Did the rest of the territories reunite with Centorauria relatively peacefully, or were they conquered? 

So eventually much of Kyrania was conquered by the Centoraurians?  This would fit quite well with what I wanted.  I was hoping to find a reason for the Kyranians to assimilate into the other tribes so that by the present they are no longer a distinct ethnicity. 

Regarding the dukes, would it be okay for some of them to be hereditary, particularly amongst the former Kyranian territories? 

@Bard Judith: Yes, that sounds like it'll work quite well.  Won't some lava drain towards the east though?  There's a gap there between the Wanderers and the Anghorth Alsae which looks like the sort of place that might receive lava flows from the mountains.  I've been thinking of putting a river there, flowing to the north, but I'm not sure if that'll work. 

As for weather patterns, I think it'll make sense for much of the rain to come from the west, where the mountains are lower.  We'll just have to make sure they're low enough to not block too much rain.  Southwest might be more interesting though, and seems to make sense too. 

So, what about Hoa Rusun?  (And maybe we should start a new thread to discuss the geography stuff). 

@Everyone: Is there a need, or any reason at all, for the 'steppe-duchies' be further divided into fiefs?  They are all fairly large, but it seems to me they are probably sparsely populated enough that a single person (the duke) can govern each duchy without the need divide it up amongst gravens and other lesser nobles. 
« Last Edit: 28 April 2007, 17:23:54 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: 28 April 2007, 20:49:58 »

Re fiefs:  This is one of the few places, if not the only place, in Caelereth where dwarves actually lay claim to areas 'topside'.    Rizkul Hund, for example, is an open crater, while the mountain of Hoa Rusun is connected via an extensive tunnel system to a small port (details on that later)  They also hold BarolRotrum (a particularly significant place) in its entirety.  Thus the 'duchy' of Ximax (or however you are dividing it) does need to have Thergerim Enclaves (rather like the elven woods) over which the dwarves hold sway.  I can mark those areas in red dotted lines if you'd like...

For the steppelands, I agree that large sparsely populated areas are probably fine to be held as dukedoms - though I'd still throw a barony or two into the mix for fun... unless you think Horth will be enough work as an exception on its own!

And DO put a river in!   We need some cataracts in the vineyard area too - and some grasslands streams!
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"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
Mina
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« Reply #26 on: 28 April 2007, 21:06:31 »

Okay, I'll add in the Dwarven territories.  Which mountains exactly do they claim, or do they claim all of them? 
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« Reply #27 on: 28 April 2007, 22:25:56 »

@Curgan: Ah, I had thought that the area remained with Kyrania because there was no mention of it having been reclaimed.  It seems I was wrong.  Did the rest of the territories reunite with Centorauria relatively peacefully, or were they conquered? 

So eventually much of Kyrania was conquered by the Centoraurians?  This would fit quite well with what I wanted.  I was hoping to find a reason for the Kyranians to assimilate into the other tribes so that by the present they are no longer a distinct ethnicity. 

Regarding the dukes, would it be okay for some of them to be hereditary, particularly amongst the former Kyranian territories? 


@Everyone: Is there a need, or any reason at all, for the 'steppe-duchies' be further divided into fiefs?  They are all fairly large, but it seems to me they are probably sparsely populated enough that a single person (the duke) can govern each duchy without the need divide it up amongst gravens and other lesser nobles. 

Centorauria was reunited partially by force (Salsair) and partly peacefully (Thyslan). This is deliberately left vague as I didn't know what would suit best in future entries.

Kyrania was in a constant decline and ravaged by civil wars. At some part during the SWII Kyrania was in fact a Centoraurian puppet a disobedient one but puppet nonetheless. After (and during) the war Centoraurian noblemen would conquer a part of the country to loose it later and in the end they took over the country. I copy from king Thar's entry the situation on the last years of Kyranian soverignty.

"Kyrania on the other hand was ruled by weak monarchs that cared only about their welfare and engaged often in petty little civil wars for power. Many Helcrani noblemen with small Centoraurian armies invaded Kyrania, that was once homeland for some of them. It was easy for them to evade the Tharanian troops, that had specific orders to prevent hostilities with the neighbouring kingdoms. At first they would loot the Kyranians and return home, but as they found no resistance, they would take over Kyranians villages and stay. These invaders were recognised as legal lords of the captured villages by Kyrania as long as they pledged allegiance to the Kyranian King, Ginaddon. Kyroan's descentants had fallen into decay. The Kyranian king, who was latter called the Lustful, was interested only in his welfare neglecting state matters and spending his few money into luxuries and fiestas for himself."


Hereditarity of the titles should be the rule the Centoraurians (and maybe not all of them) being an exception IMHO.

My opinion is that the steppe duchies should be large terriitories sparsely populated.
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« Reply #28 on: 29 April 2007, 03:54:02 »

Thanks for the info, Curgan.  So far it all seems to fit into my plans.   grin

I've made a new picture.  There aren't much changes to the duchies from the last version, except that I swapped part of the territories of Dark Red and Blue and the surface territories claimed by the Dwarves have been marked out as well. 

Mainly, what I did was add rivers.  Mostly on the Ximaxian peninsula.  I'm working on the idea that the winds mostly come from the southwest and makes it over the Westrons without losing too much moisture.  This gives Ximax a decent amount of rain. 

I figured the Aerelian Lakes could be connected, and that they probably drain into the sea somewhere, so I added a river flowing through the Vontron. 

I've also marked out locations for cities and Dwarven settlements using four-pointed stars.  For those duchies that didn't have cities in the original map by Arti, I've gone with the suggestions mentioned earlier, or added them where I thought they made sense. 

Caelum has been moved a little west so it's on the coast.  It seemed logical to me, and anyway it's still close enough to the original location that it shouldn't cause any problem. 

I haven't picked a locatin for Dark Green yet. 

I'm not sure Dark Red's location (edit: the original suggestion, at the headwaters) makes sense.  It looks a little inaccessible, more like the sort of place one would put a fortress rather than a city.  Also, given the size of the duchy, it probably makes sense for it to have more than one city.  I'm thinking maybe further down the river, near the border between Aqua and Yellow. 

Edit: Slight modifications made.  Dark Green given a city, and Dark Red's city moved to a new location. 

These are the rough concepts I have for each duchy. 

Dark Red: Vast but sparsely populated in general.  Possibly with an elected ruler following the Centoraurian system, but with a few small hereditary baronies.  (BTW, can anyone potentially be elected in the Centoraurian system, or must they say, choose a candidate from certain noble families?) 

Yellow: Pretty much the same as Dark Red. 

Magenta: Somewhat more densely populated then the other steppe duchies, mostly around the shores of the lakes.  Probably has elected rulers. 

Bright Red: Fairly unremarkable in modern times.  Has a decent sized city by the coast.  Probably has elected rulers. 

Orange: Horth and some nearby land.  Aside from it's tiny size, also fairly unremarkable in modern times.  The ruler is actually a duke, though perhaps held in lower regard than other dukes. 

Dark Green: Not sure about this one.  I want it to be fairly weak historically, perhaps satellites of Ximax.  Perhaps it's collectively controlled by a group of lesser nobles instead of a duke. 

Aqua: Well, the Shivering Wood makes up a big portion of it.  No doubt this could lead to interesting things, I'm just not sure what yet. 

Blue: Possibly the most powerful of the duchies, with at least one very large city (Caelum).  Probably has hereditary rulers.  Eastern (east of the Anaios Gap) and southern portions were historically Eyelian, and might still have a significant Eyelian presence. 

Pink: Ximax, and any villages and small towns that might be on the plain as well (I'm sure there are at least a few).  Ruled by the government of Ximax, which mostly consists of the leaders of the city's guilds. 
« Last Edit: 29 April 2007, 16:05:46 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: 29 April 2007, 22:37:44 »

Maybe it would be a nice idea for the Fores mountains to be a separate duchy, since the mountaineers would do better among each other rather than the people of the plain. Different needs different authorities...
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