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Author Topic: Duchies of Xaramon (and other stuff)  (Read 14554 times)
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Takór Salenár
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« Reply #45 on: 11 May 2007, 00:00:59 »

I know you are far away from writing up history, but maybe you have a second look at what we did at Santhmoot II.
here
Scroll down till the era of rebuilding 1063 and then later around 1460 is another peacetreaty which shows different influence in this area.
« Last Edit: 11 May 2007, 00:58:29 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged
Curgan
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« Reply #46 on: 11 May 2007, 01:02:57 »

Ximax gained reluctantly its independence from Centorauria without bloodshed as it was in the middle of SWII and they just cound not afford a civil war. After the war the rest of the Centoraurians would like to merge Ximax with their motherland, but events wen't further than this. The area remained Centoraurian territory and the Centoraurians wanted to keep a safe passage for them to Ximax denying passage to the enemy and -just in case- to be able to intervene with Ximax and force them not to take actions against centoraurian interests.
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Mina
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« Reply #47 on: 11 May 2007, 02:35:26 »

Quote
and -just in case- to be able to intervene with Ximax and force them not to take actions against centoraurian interests.
And Ximax would want control of it so that no one can force it to take actions against Ximaxian interests.  That's the point I was trying to make.  It won't just let another state have that much power over it. 

Edit:
Perhaps when Ximax became independent it took that area (or part of it) along? 

Also, Ximax probably wasn't Centoraurian right from the start.  The founders didn't seem to be affiliated with any kingdom (Human ones at least).  I won't be surprised if before Ximax joined Centorauria it built a couple of fortresses on the western part of th green region to ensure it has some control of access to the peninsula, assuming that they had enough of a military to man the fortresses at that time. 
« Last Edit: 11 May 2007, 02:49:47 by Mina » Logged

Bard Judith
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« Reply #48 on: 11 May 2007, 11:13:18 »

I love naming things!   Will gladly help with that - both from a linguistic and geographical point of view.

Perhaps this weekend I can post some suggestions which you can look through and choose from?
(Katherine has acute tonsilitis, and we're getting through this week one hour at a time...)

I'd like to see more place names that have 'built-in' history, mnemonics, etc.    "Alaria's Ford", for example, conjures up its own magic without ever knowing anything more about the place... :)
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Curgan
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« Reply #49 on: 11 May 2007, 23:12:01 »

And Ximax would want control of it so that no one can force it to take actions against Ximaxian interests.  That's the point I was trying to make.  It won't just let another state have that much power over it. 

Edit:
Perhaps when Ximax became independent it took that area (or part of it) along? 

Also, Ximax probably wasn't Centoraurian right from the start.  The founders didn't seem to be affiliated with any kingdom (Human ones at least).  I won't be surprised if before Ximax joined Centorauria it built a couple of fortresses on the western part of th green region to ensure it has some control of access to the peninsula, assuming that they had enough of a military to man the fortresses at that time. 

Well, Ximax was a part of Centorauria and they decided to cut off the kingdom when they saw they could get more independence. AFAIK the Ximaxians are independent Centoraurians (and this mentality of freedom and independence is inherent among the Centoraurians. However, it's just power play. The Centoraurians were always stronger than ximax and I can't see how they 'd give up what they consider rightfully thiers.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #50 on: 12 May 2007, 02:16:35 »

Please take into account that names should ideally reflect to a degree a nomenclature scheme of the culture living there, so that changes aren't that easily exchangeable throughout Santharia.
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Mina
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« Reply #51 on: 12 May 2007, 03:04:26 »

@Bard Judith: That'd be great!  I hope Katherine gets better soon. 

@Curgan: I agree that Centorauria is probably stronger that Ximax militarily, but Ximax would surely do something.  It's not going to give up something so important without doing anything.  The main problem would be how to prevent Centorauria from simply taking it back by force.  Possibly they could try to gain the loyalty of some of the fortresses without Centorauria's knowledge, I'm not sure. 

We might also want to think about what happened after they all joined Tharania and then Santharia. 

Regarding the culture, I think you are mostly right.  Most of the (non-magi) Humans would probably be Centoraurians.  However, there would almost certainly be a significant degree of Zirghurim and Volkek-oshra influence. 

@Arti: That's true.  If I remember correctly you mentioned some time ago that Curgan was working on such a scheme.  Hopefully we'll get to see it soon. 
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Curgan
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« Reply #52 on: 12 May 2007, 19:02:53 »

The Centoraurians would accept eventualy that Ximax is independent. however, they would not tolerate Ximax messing up with their territory. I think that the relations of the two countries would not be antagonising but cooperative. Ximax would enjoy having it's borders secured by Centoraurian forces just like the Centoraurians would benefit from the magi's help and trading with Ximax. I imagine them having close relations (like Greece and Cyprus for example. Both nations are inhabited by -mainly- greek population, sometime ago the urge for union was great, but now both countries enjoy their independence and cooperation in all aspects).
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Mina
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« Reply #53 on: 12 May 2007, 20:17:56 »

Possibly.  I think the issue has to do with trust though.  Would the Ximaxians trust Centorauria enough?  I think they'd want some guarantee that Centorauria won't mess around with them first. 
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« Reply #54 on: 12 May 2007, 23:41:41 »

They 'd have no choise. Centorauria granted them independence and Centorauria is the one who has the best interest that they remain independent as long as they are their allies.

Otherwise, it would be unrealistic for a country with a strong Centoraurian population to turn against their motherland that granted them their independence and is safeguarding it for them.
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Mina
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« Reply #55 on: 13 May 2007, 00:05:49 »

But if they identified that strongly with Centorauria, why go independent in the first place?  That indicates that there was already some split between Ximax and Centorauria. 

I don't see how wanting assurrance that Centorauria will not meddle with their affairs is turning against Centorauria.  Seizing the land by force would be, but unlikely to happen as agreed earlier. 

I've always been of the opinion that Ximax has isolationistic tendencies, and would generally not bother so much with what's going on elsewhere, but likewise would not want others intefering with their business.  The Ximaxians might be mostly Centoraurian, but Ximax and Centorauria were separate countries, and they would certainly not want Centorauria meddling with their business.  Centorauria being in control of access to their peninsula is a threat that Centorauria will interfere, and I don't think Ximax will accept that. 

Edit: I know that unequal relationships between independent nations exist in real life, but they are usually not happy ones.  The weaker nation would take steps to correct the situation.  In cases where this is due to difference in military prowess, strengthening the military seems to have been the preferred solution, but I doubt it's the only one. 
« Last Edit: 13 May 2007, 00:19:00 by Mina » Logged

Curgan
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« Reply #56 on: 13 May 2007, 17:30:31 »

The lust for freedom is inherent among the Centoraurians. Separationist movements occured in the country after the sacking of Milkengrad. Let's not forget that the Centoraurians formed from the unification of nomadic tribes. That's why they have made such a liberal administration system. Such movements were common in the middle ages in our world also. For example I can set the various independent movements among the Greeks during the Byzantine era and the German countries before the unification of Germany. Even today Austria is independent and does not want to trade its independence for unification with Germany (see what happened after WWII)

The Ximaxians benefited from the hard times Centorauria was going through to pursue their own interest. They are isolationists and wanted to draw their own cards. Plus they have the magi who do not like being ordered by an anactar far away from Ximax.

I do not think that Cantorauria messes with the internal Ximaxian affairs. It is against its own inherent mentality. They just want a close cooperation and they have it because it is of Ximax's best interest. They are protected by Centoraurian navy and have a very strong political and trade partner. In fact I think that they are happy for Centorauria protectin acceses to their country, since they do not have to worry about their defence. In fact I believe that there are several Centoraurian military bases in Ximax in order to protect the area, since an attack against Ximax is in fact an attack against Centorauria. And in future history my vision is for Ximax honouring this relationship with Centorauria (I think of one exception but that's another story, that gives flavour to the subject).

The only period that the Centoraurians would naturally be bitter against Ximax, would be right after their independence, since they were not very ethical about it. Ximaxian loyalty would eventualy erase this bitterness

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« Reply #57 on: 13 May 2007, 20:22:36 »

No, I don't mean that Centorauria meddles in Ximaxian affairs, but that I see no reason at this point for Ximax to be sure that it would not. 

Ximax would have its own military, I think.  Not a big one, but enough to defend the city at least.  Ximax's purpose, though I'm not sure how many outside of the top magi are aware of it, is to keep the Orb of Ximax (a natural phenomenon, not an object, despite its name) from falling into the wrong hands.  Thus I think it makes more sense for them to not leave their defense entirely to another country.  Possibly, if relations between Ximax and Centorauria are fairly good, there would have been Centoraurian troops assisting in the defence of Ximax, but mainly it's still handled by Ximax. 
« Last Edit: 13 May 2007, 20:24:52 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: 14 May 2007, 03:39:51 »

Exactly. IMHO the Centoraurians -who never got full control of the Orb anyway- would really want it to remain at the magi's control, with whom they have a pretty good relation, rather than having it controlled by someone less friendly.

If you put things together, everything fits.

Centoraurian granted independence not only because they didn't want -and couldn't afford- weakening the human effort at SWII, not only because freedom is their cherished ideal and they would understand Ximax' actions but also because they would not take the risk of invading Ximax (something they could do and win, but then the elves would bemefit from the situation) and inviting a foreign power (and worse an elven one) to seize the orb.
The same reasons assure us of a mutual beneficial relationship.
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« Reply #59 on: 16 May 2007, 13:18:24 »

I think it's still necessary to work out how they came to this.  When Ximax first became independent, Centorauria wasn't exactly happy about it, as you said earlier.  Centorauria would not invade Ximax then, but Ximax would certainly have had reason to be suspicious since relations between them weren't that good.  This could I think easily complicate things such that friendly relations would not have become possible.  Only when they trust each other enough and are friendly with each other would Ximax not worry so much about Centoraurian control of the region (there would still be suspicion, but not that much since they're friendly).

Here's an idea:
When Centorauria fragmented, Ximax could have seized control of that region (which would probably have separated from Centorauria as well), or more likely just parts of it.  Perhaps when Centorauria was reunified these parts remained under Ximaxian administration instead of reverting to what it had been before the fragmentation?  Even if it didn't, at least Ximax had controlled it for those few decades.  Possibly this could have happened again during those times when Santharia was in turmoil and Ximax seemed to have gone independent again. 
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