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Author Topic: Population  (Read 9489 times)
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Tharoc Wargrider
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« Reply #30 on: 14 December 2008, 21:01:49 »

Along with Talia, I would like to express my open-mouthed amazement at the depth of your research and knowledge of this subject.
However, I must confess that I got completely lost quite early-on in your theories. This shouldn't deter you from forging ahead, though. As I'm sure you will learn in time, I like things simple! I usually wait until someone of greater mental capacity than myself can explain things to me in basic terms grin

Anyhow, continue apace, Ringan, 'tis good to see someone new thrusting themselves into the fray as heartily as yourself! thumbup
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« Reply #31 on: 14 December 2008, 22:32:29 »

Lady Bard,
 
Yes, your musings bear an aura of sagacity...

Santharia has a total land area of around 10 million square strals.  This is... enormous (about 80 times the size of England in fact... and several times the size of the Roman empire at its height of power! About the size of Europe extending all the way to the Ural mnt. in fact!) 

If we regard the land as follows, we get overall population estimates as:

50% no yield wilderness                         (a million or so orcs mostly)
30% very low yield semiwilderness                  3,000,000
15% low yield land                                       9,000,000
4%   middle yield land                                  12,000,000
1%   high yield farmland                                6,000,000
                                                            -----------------------
Total                                                         30,000,000

Probably a good working number!  Mostly humanf by the way, with

Dwarves < 50,000
Elves      < 50,000
Hobbits   < 20,000
Gnomes  < 10,000
Brownies < 10,000

Orcs treat no yield wilderness as very low yield wilderness, so if they inhabit 1/5 of that, they number 1,000,000 and are still (thankfully?) outnumbered by humans inside the kingdom.

So, with 30,000,000 odd humans, we have 10,000,000 living in urban contexts. 

Half of this number = 5,000,000 about should be in large villages ranging in size from 500 to 2,500 pop. for a total of about 3333 of them in number (between 200 and 600 in each Province!  And between 40 and 200 in each dutchy!  And so between 10 and 100 in every fief!  The maps do not reflect this at present, which is where all kinds of problems start...  shocked ).   

If the next quarter (or 2,500,000 pop) live in towns between 3000 and 12000, we can count off 333 of them... (rather high, I might add... part of the reason I set out to try and make sense of population over the land... because there are just not that many mentioned on the map, not even close!  We expect provinces to have between 20 and 60; dutchies between 4 and 20, and every fief between 1 and 10, which is... well simply not so... a problem  huh )

If we let the next 1/8 (1,125,000 pop) account for the cities between 12000 and 40,000, like Marcogg and others, we get the 40 odd "One House Cities" represented on the map of Santharian Provinces.  Of course, Marcogg is a "three house city" and again me wants it to make sense  :D

If we then give the last 1/8 (1,125,000 pop) to the 16 mega cities represented by two or more houses on the Santharian map, we find they have an average population of 70,000 with a low end of 41,000 and a basic high end around 100,000.  The possibility that 3 of these cities is greater than 100,000 is eminently reasonable... I wouldn't count on too many more than three though.

Do these numbers make sense to others?  Do they jive with everyone's larger sense of the whole continent?   

BTW Varcopos is a "one house city" on the Santharian Province map, and my references in the other posts were to "one house settlements" on the Manthrian map, which is of course very much more focussed.  According to the above calculations, Varcopos should have a population between 12,000 and 40,000, and looking it up.... I find no reference... Does this work?   undecided

Ahhh, I see that the first post in this thread you mentioned Varcopos... 130,000.   Sure!  But it would be nice if had some kind of policy with respect to the houses on the map.

Just a note on mega cities... They are almost always on the sea... At least in Euope... but it is interesting how and why. Arabic and Asian cities could be much bigger... but then you need a very well organized absolutist sort of government and tax system.  See this article for more info: http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/1282


« Last Edit: 15 December 2008, 01:17:22 by Ringan » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: 14 December 2008, 22:58:49 »

Given my last post, is this how others see the  world?  What % of the whole population are elvish, dwarvish, hobbitish, gnomish, Browni-ish, orcish?

My assumptions about the elves from Tolken prejudiced, but with 12 tribes... But as they are essentially immortal, FAPP, they put things out of balance if there are too many.

Dwarves... I counted FIVE dwarvish kingdoms, and I have never read anywhere of a dwarvish kingdom exceding 10,000.  THoughts?

I counted THREE shires with hobbits... and such rarely exceed 6 or 7,000

I know of only one VALE of Brownies...

I know of FEW gnome communities in human populations...

Orcs and goblins always seem plentiful though...

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 14 December 2008, 23:37:43 by Ringan » Logged
Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #33 on: 14 December 2008, 23:01:32 »

I have no idea how you people are working this all out, but i do have a question. What would be the multiplier for Dwarven population if they have acces to both underground shroom farms and fertile plains abovegrounds? (provided the plains are not used by any other tribe or race)
« Last Edit: 14 December 2008, 23:27:15 by Miraran Tehuriden » Logged

Avrah Kehabhra

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Tharoc Wargrider
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« Reply #34 on: 14 December 2008, 23:21:32 »

A MILLION ORCS! Oh, I'm VERY happy with that number, thanks! I know it probably doesn't sound like many in the great scheme of things, but it's far more than I had envisioned being allowed to get away with.

And, er, I'm not 45 until next July 25th, Ringan. But I shall accept your congratulations as an early gift! ;)
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« Reply #35 on: 14 December 2008, 23:28:18 »

errrrrr... I think I misread "local time" as "birthday"   :P


Actually, it is better than 1,000,000...  That would be in the Santharian kingdom only... The lands to the north are... massive!  I would guess several millions of orcs up there!  Perhaps 10 million even!

I hope they stay there!
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« Reply #36 on: 14 December 2008, 23:42:55 »

Actually, I restrict my development to the northern Sarvonian continent, so the Orcs in other regions will have to wait until I am good and ready for them. I would suggest that 10 million would be a little on the large side, even in the vast emptyness that is northern Sarvonia. But it does allow me to build sunstantial armies!
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #37 on: 14 December 2008, 23:47:24 »

There are also Elves, Dwarves, and Brownies in Milkengrad!
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Avrah Kehabhra

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« Reply #38 on: 14 December 2008, 23:49:58 »

Hi Miraran!

For underground, I was using the 1pop/ss (square stral or square km) in MOUNTAINS only.  But this would normally also be augmented by above ground forages and hunts, mostly in the foothills (no one wants to eat only mushroom burgers...)

If the foothills are rich, and the dwarves wanted to start keeping some flocks of sheep and such (or goats better), they could achieve 6pop/ss in the FOOTHILLS.

If they had access and desire to use large plains, I suppose the real question is whether they would want to spend their time living like human farmers... I would think they would not be as good as humans at grazing, if no other reason than they do not ride horses... BUT if they did, they could probably find a way to get the kinds of numbers humans do, that is 30pop/ss.  But personally, I would think they would find such a lifestyle beneath them...  Or perhaps the correct expression is "above them..."

And anyway consider... a dwarf mines gold for a day or makes a sword, either of which he could trade for between a month's and a year's grain for bread and beer...  Or he could work the whole year toiling above ground far from his mountainous home...  Hmmmm.  Or?

Does that help?
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #39 on: 14 December 2008, 23:54:39 »

Well, not exactly. I was asking this on the behalf of the Trumarim Dwarves, a new tribe i am developing in western Nybelmar. They have an underground realm like most dwarven tribes, but they also have absolute controll over the surface land, which they use for harvesting materials (mainly wood) and farming both grain/veggies as livestock for meat (and milk?). They need not fear much on the matter of raiders due to their horrifying arsenal of pyrotechnical weaponry, so i imagined they could potentially support positively HUGE populations also because they waste little space on housing, seeing as they can build up and downward as well as sideways, where surface cities are quite limited in that aspect..
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Avrah Kehabhra

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« Reply #40 on: 15 December 2008, 00:39:21 »

Dwarves, Dwarves, Here and There!
Dwarves, Dwarves, Everywhere!
Dwarves, Dwarves, Y'a betta b'ware!

                                                 ~~ Orcish children's rhyme

Mmmmm...

I don't know Nybelmar so well, and the dwarves might well be a very different sort than the more Tolkenesque dwarves of the west (at least from what I have been learning as I am a NEWBY...  rolleyes )

But... staying strictly to the facts....

I would imagine that dwarves CAN live like humans with similar numbers so far as resources go.  What limits dwarves in traditional mythology more than anything else is their lack of... lust.  Yep.  They are somehow modelled after the slower going element of the Earth.  No doubt they care for and love their children beyond measure, but they are not "breeders" like humans and orcs.  Others should pipe in on this so that we all move towards consensus; this is just my sense.

Having said that, I will note that I created a world once where in the far east the dwarves were all very Chinese with long beards finally cut like old Confucian sages.  They were highly integrated into the human empire (along with a few dragons), and I adapted their culture to reflect higher birthrates, though still not on the human scale.  It worked there. 

So, if the Trumarim can produce the children, and tending to farms is not above them  :P then normal grazing lands/farm lands probably support 30 pop/ss (km squared) just as surely for dwarves as humans...  In fact, probably the dwarves could make great use of their engineering to create wonderful irrigation that would turn even so so land into high yield farmland and so support 60 pop/ss!

Does that help?
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #41 on: 15 December 2008, 00:49:46 »

Yeah, thats great, thanks! And if you want to know what kind of dwarves these are, you'll have to wait for the next part of the Trumatyreon introduction story!
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Avrah Kehabhra

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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #42 on: 15 December 2008, 01:04:22 »

If you search for "crossbreeding", you'll get my article describing crossbreed fertility rates in Caelereth, which includes "pure" race fertility and typical infant survival rates as well.  That might be helpful.


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« Reply #43 on: 15 December 2008, 03:15:36 »

Thanks for all the work so far, Ringan - it's all quite a lot to digest at the moment, though! You're also taking some things for granted in the current state on the site, which weren't meant the way you interpret them. So one after the other!

For example you assume that 200 inhabitants in Nepris are meant to actually be 200*5, while the amount of town inhabitants was meant to be just as it is on the site. 200 inhabitants in Nepris were actually meant to be 200 inhabitants. If the number is inaccurate according to your calculations, then it has to be corrected or it needs to be at least reconsidered, but what's on the site is meant to be the actual number of inhabitants.

I also noticed that you conclude that Starmiran (a "three house" town) is pretty much like Holt, though this is something that was intended differently on the map I drew. Just three houses doesn't necessarily mean that it's a town, because I use two different symbols to represent settlements: Huts and houses. Houses are meant to represent towns, huts villages. A three hut settlement therefore was intended to be a larger village, while a three house settlement was intended to stand for a larger town. So big difference here.

I have to read it all in detail yet, but I just wanted to correct these assumptions first.
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« Reply #44 on: 15 December 2008, 03:29:17 »

Hello Ringan!  This looks quite fascinating, though I think I'll need a little time to digest it all.  So, uh, just saying hi for now, until I've read through everything.  :)
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