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Author Topic: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods  (Read 25141 times)
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Arceon Barrurbeleth
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« Reply #15 on: 17 September 2007, 04:42:14 »

The list of genders for the gods. I also saw a problem in this area.

The mating between Zundefor and the three below mentioned "female" gods is quite unclear. According to the thundefoot entry Brender mated with Zundefor and gave birth to thunderfoot. This brings two questions: if Brender is male, how can he gave birth? If Brender is somewhat hemaphrodite (there aren't any references that some of the 15 are hemaphrodite), why is he referred to as "he"? Same issue goes for Necteref and Chelinor.

Anyway this is the list for my theory of supposing that Brender, Chelinor and Necteref are female:


Female:
Brender (source: the Thunderfoot entry, although in the Overview she is called Brender the „Thunder God“ and is generaly refered to as „he“ )
Necteref(source: Carcal entry, same as Brender)
Chelinor(source: the Hrugchuk Mouse entry, same problem as Nectref and Brender)
Nechya
Aleshnir

Male:
Zundefor
Ertemmir
Phoblit
Astrelin
Pargis
Peierojon

Undecided(no references):
Waebor
Reanor
Asendin
Heterniz

« Last Edit: 25 September 2007, 06:12:57 by Arceon Barrurbeleth » Logged

Takór Salenár
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« Reply #16 on: 17 September 2007, 23:48:28 »

Thanks for pointing that out, Arceon, I will look into the matter.
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #17 on: 24 September 2007, 05:38:56 »

With the Dark Stryke Shark entry, Aleshnir was just made female... hope it didn't hurt.....

I would like to see Reanor and Asendin made female too I should think... no reason, other than the names sound female....

and Takor, I have read all the entries on the physical dynamics of the world now, and it has made more sense of things for me, thank you....


I'm hoping we can start brainstorming with this.... I would like to start at some point a Mythology Compendium of the Ice Tribes, where the myths are put together in such a way as to tell the entire story of the world creation and the interaction between the gods and the gods and mortals.....


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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #18 on: 24 September 2007, 05:58:26 »

Quote
The Icemen believe that Zundefor and Aleshnir mated with the other gods and with each other giving birth to mortal life. The humans according to their beliefs are the children of Phoblit and Nechya mating one time before they begin their eternal warfare.

This is something else that should be cleared up.  As it states now, who is the mother of the human race?  The one sentence says Aleshnir gave birth to mortal life, but the very next sentence says that Nechya gave birth to humans.  My entries have always been based on Nechya, but I have noticed others going the other way.....
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« Reply #19 on: 24 September 2007, 06:03:57 »

Oh yes!
Could you solve that problem Arceon mentioned above?
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Arceon Barrurbeleth
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« Reply #20 on: 25 September 2007, 06:21:28 »

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I would like to see Reanor and Asendin made female too I should think... no reason, other than the names sound female....
I've was thinking the same thing too. And before we make any myths or stories, Altario, we should define the connections between gods, the connection between gods and humans(worshiping) and connection between gods and their elements(their representation in each element)...
Quote
This is something else that should be cleared up.  As it states now, who is the mother of the human race?  The one sentence says Aleshnir gave birth to mortal life, but the very next sentence says that Nechya gave birth to humans.  My entries have always been based on Nechya, but I have noticed others going the other way.....

I understood that fine when I read the entry... the sentence structure is probably off there. It should probably read that Nechya gave birth to human race and Aleshnir gave birth to all other mortal life....
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #21 on: 25 September 2007, 06:24:22 »

hmmm... my mistake was assuming mortal life meant human.... grin

and for sure, before we go too far into stories all that needs to be worked out... lol, my unfortunate circumstance is that ALL my entries are Ice Tribe and or Remusian in nature, so my myth/lore sections need to get covered somehow... but, if anything does not jive after we have this ironed out, I can always go back and revise them, that is no trouble... luckily, few others find the far north that exciting, lol, except the dog and icesnout entries... hmm, bittersweet to see it catching hold somewhat.... hopefully, we can integrate much of the previous developed stuff into this new vision quite ably.....
« Last Edit: 25 September 2007, 06:31:37 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #22 on: 26 September 2007, 01:54:03 »

This is great! 


I hope we can get input from Pikel and Curgan, but otherwise we may just have to go ahead and update the entry.  I like the idea of introducing the flavour of Greek mythology, i.e gods interacting directly with humans and having human feelings (baser as well as higher).  However, I bet the Ice Tribe's idea of an underworld wouldn't be hot  lol

I might have a bit more time to address this issue in the next few days, now that my little one will be in daycare three days a week.   If we do need to update the entry, I can help Altario with that.

The undecided gods could be :

a) randomly assigned a gender
b) hermaphrodite
c) able to switch genders
d)  neuter (no gender)
d) any combination of the above

Having gods that are not specifically male or female would add an element of originality and might make it more interesting as well, particularly for myths and tales.

Anyway, I'm glad to see some discussion on this.  I felt the entry could have been a bit more specific.


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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #23 on: 26 September 2007, 02:09:26 »

Alysse, though of course we can add a bit to the icetribes' entry itself, this was meant for an own whole submission about a religion.
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #24 on: 26 September 2007, 03:16:45 »

I wonder.... with the Ice Tribes so very strong in their own depictions of male/female roles, would they have gods who are more or less able to switch back and forth?  Men are not allowed to do womens jobs, and a woman trying to do men's jobs might just find herself dead for her troubles... with that in mind, I find it a little hard to imagine a pantheon of gods with no clearly defined gender roles.... just my idea, but feel free to convince me I'm wrong..... grin

in keeping with that thought, are the goddesses of this pantheon more subservient to the gods?  I would like it not to be so, but would need a reason to allow the goddesses that much power.....

Hell, just to put a name to the underworld, which would need to be changed later, if indeed they even have such a place, might still be a hot place for them.  Cold to them is the norm, it is what they see, the endure, they live with.  A place of fire, molten rock, no ice/snow would be a very scary foreign world to them.  Many of them have never seen bare earth, save for the underdeveloped hot springs, so a place where there was no ice/snow might scare the bejjebies out of them.....

BTW, will look forward to you adding to our discussions Alysse, as your input is very valued and desired... grin
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #25 on: 26 September 2007, 03:50:07 »

I have to agree with you, Altario, I'm so sorry!
But gods with no gender or not a defined one would be very suspect. However, the first Afrasnyr  was the hermaphrodite chaos god. I don't know, if this word is used correctly here, if Afrasnyr should not just be without any sex.

If I look at them as a developer, I can say, they have created their gods after their needs, their society, so it would be not far fetched, if all gods except one (whom they need for reproduction) would be male or even if all the gods would be male and do the job of creation themselves. But the entry gives some guide already - they mate.
Of course I would love to see strong goddesses, but I'm not sure, if we should create them, if not their only power would lie in the capability of reproduction.

Don't feel bound by what is written already, there are not so many entries around that we could not switch the gender of one or the other god even in the main icetribes entry - if Curgan agrees of course.

So the most plausible scenario for me would now be just one female god and the whole pantheon male.

Could it be, that in the main entry the both animal spirits were meant to be female, all other gods male except Nechya?
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #26 on: 26 September 2007, 04:50:38 »

Not sure, but as the land animal spirit, Zundefor has definitely become male.....

Definately the Pantheon should be heavilly favored by the males, but I'm hoping we can keep more than one or two females to create a more fluid dynamic when we go to create the plots and subplots of the pantheatic culture.... males alone limits this to struggles about possession and power, but adding females adds the sex/love dynamic and jealousy....  a more interesting milieu IMHO... as a dev I want as a diverse a palette as I can get in order to begin my work.... 

Again, just stating my view so that we can all come to a concensus....  more than willing to give/take on this...
 
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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #27 on: 26 September 2007, 06:31:03 »

Well, I was just tossing some ideas around for interest's sake, not trying to say that it should be that way.  I still think the idea of a genderless or hermaphrodite god is a neat one but perhaps not for the Ice tribes, then.  What about having genderless servants for the gods?  Sort of demi-gods or angels--not all-powerful, but able to act as messengers, servants, and possibly intercessors?

Okay, okay, I'll get back to the real discussion.  I think at least a few goddesses is a good idea as well, for interest's sake if nothing else. They might not be as important as the males, but perhaps the stories might depict them as being more cunning.  Since the Ice Tribes believe in aggressive male dominance, perhaps some of that dominance is rooted in insecurity and fear--an unrecognized but very real fear of the confusing and incomprehensible, but desirable mystery that is woman.

 Thus, though their goddesses might be less powerful, they are more cunning and deceitful, thus providing a justification for the males to keep their females "under control" or "in-line".

I hope I'm explaining myself clearly:  I'm being seriously distracted by my children's bids for attention, homework help and sibling rivalry.  I've also got to get some supper  preparations started really soon, so I'd better go. 

Later,


Alysse.
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Alysse the Likely
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #28 on: 26 September 2007, 06:53:47 »

oohhh... as a multi divorced man... cunning and sneaky women sounds so very real to me, lol....

I like that idea... also, some sort or type of sexless servantile messengers sounds good too... 

I also would like to see each of the gods have a sort of .... not sure the word.... familiar is as close as i can come... from my research for my shark, i came upon a myth that stated that Zundefor had given the Caracal to Necteref, as a familiar, so I created the myth where Aleshnir created the Dark Stryke Shark to be Asendin's familiar.  These familiars I was thinking could be a personification of the animal... not a beast, but not not a beast... A caracal that thinks, talks, plans, schemes, eyc, for their master... a right hand man so to speak....

Just a thought....

I want this religion to be the fullest we can make it... the example that the rest look to for inspiration....  the more involved it is, the more intensive and extensive we can make it, the more real it will be...
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Takór Salenár
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« Reply #29 on: 26 September 2007, 17:06:19 »

Oh yes, I like the ideas which are comming along!  The woman who seems only to be weak , but hides her cleverness - maybe true for the icetribes women as well, though I don't think, that they see themselves as such, not generally . (We need to have a clear distinction to my Himiko! ;) )
But this trait has to be described in the stories/myths as well!
This neuter servant in the form of not beast, not man, but both is a genial idea, Altario, it could be from me ! ;)

Altario, I think there is no religious overview for the Santharian gods yet, just single myths scattered in the literature.
But go ahead, I support your high aiming plans! :)
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