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Author Topic: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods  (Read 20782 times)
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Gwai'ayia Quillouf
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« Reply #45 on: 01 October 2007, 22:46:56 »

I was reading through this and found interesting, and since I love greek literature....here is my own two cents if you want my input:

Void (Judgement Place):

Few ideas here as far as looks and other things as well.

Instead of having all the gods sending their messengers or familiars for that matter to perform a 'test' to evaluate 'warriors', and thus having all the 'gods' being involved how about just one or two being actively involved in the 'judgement' while the others initally designed the place but are no longer actively involved.

The two gods/goddess that should be strongly consider IMHO is the moon goddess (or night goddess) since is also mentioned (I think) as the mother of all humans, and the ice tribes god/goddess of death.  Logically, this would make sense, and it would elimnate the need for two many of the gods involvement in the Void or The Judgement Place.

However, one possibiltiy is for each god to have a dedicated section or location where his/her element is represented.  An intial founding will allow involvment on each gods part showing their interest, but would allow for lack of interest later in the matters of death.Each test should probably be designed to 'test' the 'worthiness' of a warrior. 

For example: For the Warrior to pass through Fire for the Fire God, To Survive a Bitter Winter for the Ice God, to Beat a Snow Strom for the Snow God, to bring down a huge beast for the Earth God (since he's considered a beast himself), etc.

I also think that the 'warriors' intentions could be tested through this test, if the warrior 'wants' to go to Icespring bad enough by having several 'temptations', possibly as the goddesses tests, arise to see if the 'warrior' will stray from the 'path' carved in the void or judment place by the gods to guide them.

I think the "Unworthy Ones" or the "Dishonered" would be a good term for those lost beings who failed the test.

I am also of the opinion that worthy warriors, who have proven themself by a great dead in life should be awarded by a straight trip to icespring or perhaps awarded a minor 'godship' like some of the heros of the greek patheon (most notably Herclues but there were others).

Familiars:

I think that each familiar's 'role' if you will should be determined by the nature of their particular god or godess.  But in general I think that they should be sort of spies/guards to the gods if you will, to spy on man, and possibly to communicate messages to man kind.  If you base the idea on the familiars being a little bit of man and beast, it would make sense for the messengers to be in general mute obversers and judgers of mans life in hopes to catch man unaware.

Of course, this doesn't prevent exceptions to the rule.

But all that's IMHO.
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Takór Salenár
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« Reply #46 on: 01 October 2007, 23:47:00 »

Good proposals!  The only part I'm not sure about is that a goddess should judge the warriors, for then a woman (even if she is a goddess) would judge a man - and she might be too soft, if mankind sprung from her hips.
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Gwai'ayia Quillouf
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« Reply #47 on: 02 October 2007, 00:41:19 »

Well, if you follow my humble suggest you could easily make the representive of death, I forget the name at the moment so sorry, be a male god (in the form of a harsh warrior perhaps) and have his judgement be harsh or fair...and have the goddess there to sort of 'soften' the judgement of the god of Death but always have his judgment over rule hers.

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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #48 on: 02 October 2007, 01:44:35 »

Actually, that was sort of what I meant when I said the gods should have different tests. I didn't mean every god should test each man.  I guess I wasn't very clear there.  I meant that warriors, artists, hunters, musicians, story-tellers, etc., would all be tested differently and thus by a different god/goddess.  Each would have his/her own special area of interest to test on.  Not to mention infants or children--perhaps the goddesses, as lesser powers, would only be responsible for their acceptance into Icespring. Though I sort of like the idea of them trying to tempt or distract the men from succeeding in their tests--it fits with the whole idea of women being weaker but cunning and deceitful.

I agree, for great heroes, the tests should be waived and they should go directly to the Icesprings.

You're right, Takor, the testing should be the domain of the deities alone.  When I think about it, it would give the servants too much power.


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« Reply #49 on: 06 January 2008, 10:30:51 »

Hello everyone!

Sorry I haven't been around for this, I started the entry on Iceland's Religion about a year ago, and have lost Internet for the past 6 months, and thus was unable to keep up with this thread to put down my thoughts and feelings. While yes, I have started an entry on all this, I must say I really like some of the ideas presented here. Just
thought I'd jot down some of my own ideas.

Gender of the Gods.
Quite frankly, while i enjoy diversity, with the exception of the Remusians and the Himiko, the ice tribes respect for women is so low that i just cannot see them worshiping a female deity, if they even believe a female can *be* deific. This presented a problem for me, because the gods mated to create life throughout the world. My thoughts on this were simple:

Nechya (Goddess of the Night) Would be female, the only true female goddess. Due to their lack of respect for females, I would think that the Ice Tribes would do very little at night, staying inside whatever shelter was available to them, distrusting the night and moon.

Zundefor and Aleshnir (the land and sea animal spirits respectively) Would Change sex. They'd be male, except in the cases when they need to mate, then they'd be able to concieve and give birth, but remain male after that.

Every other God would be Male.

The Gods' Interaction with the Mortal World
Like the Greeks, I believe the God's would engage in their eternal war via the mortal world, but more than just with the humans. If you read the Hrugchuck, Hrugchuck mouse, Thunderfoot, Caracal, and burning grass entries, they show that the gods wage their war through all forms of life. It is a continual contest of one upmanship.

How the ice tribe's are directly related to this, i have yet to think of. Perhaps each tribe (with the exception of the remusians and himiko) considers itself a representative of sorts to certain deities. Perhaps even the himiko could consider itself a representative of Nechya, and thus would always perform it's raids on the mainland tribes during the night (they raid the other tribes to kidnap women, thus saving them from the brutality of male dominance). This could also explain the Ice Tribes perpetual state of war and contest. If the God's are at war, then surely so must their representatives be at war.

The Gods' Interaction with Eachother.
In my vision, the Gods are in a perpetual state of a 'cold war'. War without outright open warefare with eachother. Instead the live their war vicariously through the mortal world.  I haven't thought much on 'alliances', but the idea is intriguing.

Death
The one thing The Ice tribe's value above *all* others is strength. Weakness is not excusable. Compassion, mercy, and tendernesss are all words with no meaning. The Ice Tribes care for nothing that cannot wield a blade. Thus, they way to "iceSpring' (I really enjoy this name, gives both the idea of strength as well as the thought of where it all comes from) is their battle. Only a warrior may make it to the 'heaven' of IceSpring. Women and children are considered nothing more than property, and thus, do not grace the halls of 'IceSpring'.

'IceSpring' i think, should not be the home of the Gods however. I like the idea of the god's being more....nomadic. the possibility of 'meeting' one possible. I think IceSpring should be the home of the Ancients, or ancestors of all the ice tribes.

As far as 'Hell', i'm not sure if one should exist. I always imagined that the Tribes would believe that if one is not worthy of 'IceSpring', then they would just cease to be, although this idea of being put in a void, not unlike the fate of Afresnir, the chaos god that started this whole mess ;)

I'll post more later methinks. Throw some thoughts at me :d

(I just wanted to note that I don't think the beliefs i outlined above would be part of the remusian or himiko beliefs. Completely different cultures i believe)
« Last Edit: 06 January 2008, 10:57:18 by Pikel Thunderstone » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: 06 January 2008, 11:04:28 »

I would imagine the man of the family be tested, and if he passes the women and children go with him. For they, to the males, are nothing more than property. I also think that the Ice Tribes would worship a female godess, however either she'd be savage and barbaric or beautiful and intoxicating. Both of these ideas for godesses (I imagine) would be a fertility godess of some sorts.  On the subject of god vs. god relationship I quite like the idea of fighting through humans. Anyways that was my 2 sans. grin
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Pikel
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« Reply #51 on: 06 January 2008, 11:11:09 »

The idea of a goddess being represented as a fertility being makes sense for all but the Ice tribes, In my opinion. The Ice Tribes appreciate Strength. Not the giving of life. as a fertility Goddess would suggest, but the Taking of it. I can see the idea of a female oeddess being introduced, one completely of Fertility, made subservient to the other gods. However, I think that would require adding another Deity to the pantheon, something I am not opposed to.
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Arceon Barrurbeleth
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« Reply #52 on: 06 January 2008, 23:02:34 »

Quote
Zundefor and Aleshnir (the land and sea animal spirits respectively) Would Change sex. They'd be male, except in the cases when they need to mate, then they'd be able to conceive and give birth, but remain male after that.

Wouldn't this contradict the Ice Tribes low respect for women. If these two gods had to change their genders to mate, wouldn't it mean that the Ice Tribes have less respect for them as gods and thus have less respect for everything they've created, including the useful animals that the Ice Tribes need to survive; and as several entries show, their respect (for example the albino wison(one of Zundefor's forms)) is great.
The two-gender pantheon has more sense to me because it presents the in-replaceable, but still-not-as-important-as-male's(this could be presented in Gods-Goddesses relationships)  role in the cycle of creating and taking of life. Of course, this view on the religion complicates Pikel's one tribe=one god theory., which sounds good to me too.   
« Last Edit: 06 January 2008, 23:13:13 by Arceon Barrurbeleth » Logged

Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #53 on: 07 January 2008, 03:56:23 »

Hi Pikel:

I read with anticipation your post, and have spent time muling it over before addressing it.

Gender
I think that the lines between men and women are too strong within the Ice Tribes to accept a god just switching back and forth between genders.  I think they would consider this even more abhorrent than actually having a female goddess.  Men do not become women.

Interaction
I like the idea of each separate tribe having a Patron God, and perhaps each clan within that tribe as well.  The cold war is good as well, though flare ups need to happen from time to time, but yes...

Death
Do you not think a testosterone ruled people such as the Ice Tribes are not going to want female companionship in the afterlife?  Without judgement, I point toward extreme Muslims, who are considered to be quite misogynistic, where upon death in an act of terrorism, are promised 70 virgins in the afterlife.  Just a thought.

Also, why can't the Icespring be their home, like Mount Olympus?  This does not preclude them from wandering the Ice Lands, in fact, encourages it to further their cold war tactics,


Lastly, thank you for the Remusian and Himiko disclaimer.  They will be based off what is presented here, but perhaps not in agreement, as it will have evolved over time.

Look forward to more discussions. :D
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« Reply #54 on: 07 January 2008, 09:14:24 »

You might think about having any goddesses (female goddess being redundant :P ) actually depicted as servants of the gods - each male having a female 'subordinate' who is subject to His will and directive.   Thus the god of War, for example, has as His mate (and, naturally, servant) the goddess of Fertility - He directs her to replace the warriors He has called to be his own.    That seems to fit remarkably well with the chauvinist societal structure of the Ice Tribes, doesn't it?

Alternatively, you could have a couple of truly terrifying goddesses who appear only 'nominally' female - similar to the Morrigan, or Macha of Celtic myth, or the skull-decked blood-gorging Aztec Coatlicue -  I quote:

"She is represented as a woman wearing a skirt of writhing snakes and a necklace made of human hearts, hands and skulls. Her feet and hands are adorned with claws (for digging graves) and her breasts are depicted as hanging flaccid from nursing. Coatlicue keeps on her chest the hands, hearts and skulls of her children so they can be purified in their mother's chest.  Almost all representation (sic) of this goddess depict her deadly side, because Earth, as well as loving mother, is the insatiable monster that consumes everything that lives. She represents the devouring mother, in whom both the womb and the grave exist."

My two sans worth - or, a couple of rain flurries to add to the brainstorms!  :)
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Arceon Barrurbeleth
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« Reply #55 on: 08 January 2008, 06:01:52 »

Quote
You might think about having any goddesses (female goddess being redundant :P ) actually depicted as servants of the gods - each male having a female 'subordinate' who is subject to His will and directive.   Thus the god of War, for example, has as His mate (and, naturally, servant) the goddess of Fertility - He directs her to replace the warriors He has called to be his own.    That seems to fit remarkably well with the chauvinist societal structure of the Ice Tribes, doesn't it?

Really like the the idea Judy!!! thumbup You could also add Asgardian goddess of the frost giants, Skadi to the list of terrifying goddesses...
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Rookie Brownbark
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« Reply #56 on: 08 January 2008, 18:19:01 »

Do you not think a testosterone ruled people such as the Ice Tribes are not going to want female companionship in the afterlife?  Without judgement, I point toward extreme Muslims, who are considered to be quite misogynistic, where upon death in an act of terrorism, are promised 70 virgins in the afterlife.  Just a thought.

How about this?  If a man thinks that his wife has served him well in life, he can allow her into the afterlife to continue that service.  Kind of like bringing your favorite hunting spear along. It would also provide a good incenive for women to serve their husbands well in life.
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Aurora Damall
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« Reply #57 on: 08 January 2008, 21:38:30 »

I like Rookie's idea, it fits into their life better. It makes the man seem like he has control over her, exactly the way the Ice Tribes do it. This is also a little like Bard Judiths idea of making subordinate gods. grin
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« Reply #58 on: 09 January 2008, 07:15:20 »

Quote
Nechya (Goddess of the Night) Would be female, the only true female goddess. Due to their lack of respect for females, I would think that the Ice Tribes would do very little at night, staying inside whatever shelter was available to them, distrusting the night and moon.

Do the Icelands have extended periods of night like earths poles?

How about a young man who is engaged having to go out for an extended period of time in winter while their is a long night.

This would prove to her father he is worthy of her daughter that he can handle her.

He would have to face the elements with only things he could carry. He would be allowed one set of clothes and a knife of his own making. Other things allowed more clothes, carrying sacs, weapons, tools must be provided by his fiance.Bring food on start of trip is forbidden. Nechya would see what his fiance had made and have mercy on him.

Before the period of exile his future mother in law would prepare a great feast if she like him, if she didn't he would be lucky to get bread and water. He would then leave for a period he would have to stay gone long enough and bring back trophies of his exile to prove he was worthy. If the future father in law didn't like him devilish. He would actively hunt him. Other members of her family or rival males might hunt him as well. The latter would be more common if it was an arranged marriage and she was interested in another man.

If he survived they would be wed.
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« Reply #59 on: 09 January 2008, 08:04:34 »

Hmm...I don't know much about the ice tribes, but from what I've seen from this discussion they clearly see women as their subordinates.  Why then would they allow them to play such a huge role in something such as matrimony which has always been, traditionally, an affair among men?
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