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Author Topic: Saiph-Stone  (Read 4949 times)
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Decipher Ziron
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« Reply #15 on: 29 August 2007, 02:50:46 »

BTW: Though its probably just me...I don't find the pronounciation part in the first sentence any easier to understand than 'Saiph'....
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« Reply #16 on: 29 August 2007, 11:17:30 »

Okay I have made a few changes and expanded some of the sections within the submission, there were some parts to the request that I did not change as of yet because while my reasoning for selecting the name may be important to some it seems kind of trivial to rack my brain looking for reasons. I will post something later as a revision if I ever think of an origin. As things are sitting right now this entry is going to get longer and longer. So please read it over and give me your input about how it currently sits. I am willing to make alterations within reason...

P.S. At the rate that this entry is growing I may have to change its name to the Saipharian Dream... grin
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« Reply #17 on: 29 August 2007, 11:34:55 »

I would eliminate the reference to weaponry altogether as it seems implausible for a number of reasons.

If this stone is a) rare and b) believed to have healing properties and c) has superstitious associations - why would it be used for arrowheads and knives, common household tools of the north?  You do state that this is not an ordinary usage, but by putting it first - indeed, by mentioning it at all - you give it more importance.

It might be possible that a few ceremonial 'weapons' or tools, such as sacrificial daggers or sickles, would be cut out of Saiphstone, but it would be very strange to have everyday objects in this unusual material.

Also, a material that powders easily enough to be drunk wouldn't stand up under combat, so is impractical in that regard. 

It's innovative and interesting enough without that detail - why not just keep the medicinal /culinary applications? 

Talia - I love the shed skin idea, especially because if that gets incorporated I'll do a picture for the entry.... (hint hint hint)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #18 on: 29 August 2007, 16:47:46 »



IF you think this submission is long, then you haven't seen a really long entry  yet
Are you complaining about getting comments? ;) Always keep in mind, that commenting takes as long as writing!

Please, don't just say, that you don't take all the advice given, give a reason why you don't do so. e.g. territory - why didn't you expand it as requested? My argument that you won't get enough of these stones is still standing.
Same with the myth, I like it, but it doesn't work as I pointed out. No dead seaserpent, mythical or not has as many eyes to loose over the centuries. Don't just say "the gods", surely not all 15 were needed to slay a single beast.
You should speak with the current developers of the icetribe gods, if they are ok with it. as I said already, why has a single icetribe has a different belief/myth than the others, regardless if the stones are washed up only on their beach or not. Why do not the other tribes believe it as well?

Please don't mention the Himiko in this respect nor another than that these icebergs can be found in their territory, they are not developed and I surely don't want anyone writing about their religion now.

" It is also found frozen between fragments of bedrock that are at the bottom of the sea when the tides are low. Sometimes if the tides remain low long enough the natural heat of the stones will melt the ice around them making it easier for anyone exploring the lower beaches to get to them. "

Don't get this one. 'They are surely not frozen when the water covers them and they won't freeze that quickly when the water retreats.

Your drink doesn't work, for these herbs are not available in the icetribe's territory and I doubt, that they are traded this far. These people are poor and have surely not the money to import southern dried herbs. Added in the food or just mixed with water should have the same effect.

Judy is true with the knives, If you don't take the link Saiph-sword (the reason i introduced the idea of knives) Skip the weapons part, it is too much for one single "mineral". You can't powder it in its soft form and saying it is as hard as adamant is a bit exaggerating as well, how can you grind it? The icetribes have surely no tools to work with adamants (they are barbarians!)

Well, and the name? I gave you an idea - to use this name and not make an easter egg out of it is well, ..

The longer you work on a submission the better it gets. :)
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« Reply #19 on: 31 August 2007, 16:35:13 »

Vehrok, I don‘t want that you think you were the reason for the trouble which startet in this thread , so I give you an answer and comments to your post I would have done earlier, if Art would not have posted first. However, not all you want to bring across is clear to me. (And keep in mind, it is not „newbie-safe“. )Please blaim my lacking English skills.
Your post is in the other thread, but I think you need the answers here.



Okay the first thing that I must stress is a point that I understand is being made. I can see by reading the entry about the weapons section of the entry, what I do not understand and maybe part of this is a failure on my part to place my thoughts into the proper context, is
 when I tried to keep the entry simple suggestions were made and examples of things that could be used in certain sections were given. examples were made which prompted me to look up the current compendium entries surrounding the suggestions made. Is this the right choice or the wrong one?

I must admit I don‘t get what you want to say here, or ask.   

 I am not trying to step on anyone's vision here but it seems that no matter what I try to create that somehow manages to happen. Tallia spoke of the Himiko having a reason to come down and raid the mainland Ice tribes. Now without being able to do a whole lot of research as to the beliefs of this tribe and based on questions asked about why a larger chunk of stone that is attached to the ground couldn't make their way into that territory.

I don‘t understand  what you want to say.
I think it would be cool, if now and then the Himiko could lay hands on such an iceberg, and if it would be  only every 100 years. If you think it is not possible, then it shall be.
The follwing were just mental notes for me for a future developing:
If the mineral is not  available this often or not at all as on the mainland this could be the reason for the Himiko to raid the mainland (they are otherwise quite peaceful and produce all they need themselves.)


It makes me wonder, The only real detailed entries seen on any of the ice tribes is on the Remusians, unless I am not looking in the right part of the site which is very possible.

To clear that up again and to give you some new information:
The Remusians are an older entry which is currently reworked by Altario.
The Icetribes are developed not so long ago by Curgan, he counted the Remusians to the icetribes, but they are a bit different, properly the most advanced, with a different religion.
The Himiko don‘t exist yet apart from a single person‘s entry (Minoki Kiuru) and an appearance section of them somewhere in the depth of the forum, I planned to create them as a response to how Curgan wrote the icetribes. I wanted  to  set their culture apart from the icetribes one (females are property!  - I like to „quarrel“ with Curgan as he did with me) , with a different religion, different society and different living style as well, for they have not the resources available as the mainland icetribes (no wisons e.g.)


 I post replies asking for comments and suggestions to help give me a better idea of what is okay to use and what is not. But when a reply is given that makes mention of, for example of the mineral being deposited as far up as the islands that the Himiko live on, how am I supposed to interpret that based on the fact that I am not just using the most current reply as a guide. I am looking at it from a point of view that if I expand the coasts that the mineral is abundantly found on, does that not defeat the purpose of saying that its placement is rare and it is hard to come by?

I‘m sorry to say that again, but I don‘t understand you.

You want to have a rare mineral, but on the other side heavily used by the icetribes for health remedies and for food additive. If it is only washed on the beach on this  small part up in the north as you suggested, then it has to be found there in abundance so that there is enough for the whole icetribe culture. But you need to say that. That does not mean, that it is not rare if I look at the whole northern continent of Sarvonia.

A note to ground additive (you didn‘t change as I suggested) - maybe there was a misunderstanding. I read it as „basic “ ingredient (like flour, which would contradict with its rareness), not as „powdered“ additive. I don‘t know what you want to say.




I tried to keep it as simple and mysterious as possible because keeping it simple is the best way to avoid, stepping on another member's vision. I realise that there has to be a way to embed it properly into the world, but that is why I chose to do a mineral. There could be any number of beliefs that could have sprung up around its origins. Those could have been thought up by the ones who are envisioning the cultural beliefs of any one of the ice tribes. But when I am being told to expand the mythology section as it applies to the stone with the views of the other tribes. If I cannot find any direct detail that says, "hey we do not believe in mythological creatures, that our gods protect us from. Then how am I supposed to know that this tribe who doesn't have a dedicated entry detailing themselves would not believe such a thing. I was thinking along the reasoning of on point of view centered around the origin of this one mineral, Not that of redefining the culture of the ice tribes.

I think you misunderstood me again. I did not say that it is not be possible, that those people believe in sea snakes and the gods fight them of.

What I said was: Go and look which god would have done this, don‘t just use „the gods“, for „the gods“ might well be to turn out to be wrong. (You are writing about the north and the icetribes, so I assume you have written the respective entriy about theicetribes and the small part about the gods.)
And I said, it is quite unlikely to have a dead sea serpent, be it mythical or not loosing its eyes over such a long time and such an amount.  Unlikely means - can‘t you find a better solution?

A solution would have been: The sea serpent is slain every year by.. a certain god who wants to protect this special tribe (maybe this tribe worships especially him) . The serpent however comes alive again, recovers during winter under the frozen ice OR is resurrected  by another god, just as an example!.


If I am to be able to make a quality contribution, I need more to go on than here is an example now run with it. While the posts are giving both positive and negative feed back, what I really need in order to be able to take this entry that has been quoted as a cool idea and make it work is at this point I try to rewrite a section to follow all the guidelines given in previous posts and maintain that sense of originality. It was said that the ice tribes are barbarians and would not be able to work with a substance as hard as Adamant (Diamond), Yet historically from an earthen point of view, African tribes were doing it for centuries and they could have been considered just as much a barbarian. Where all of the other creators say we need to keep less of the real world in ours, I am saying well even with that being the case what would something similar in the real world have been able to do with the same scenario?

   Well, why have you not just done that, told us what you know? I don‘t know everything and so far I was told that diamonds can only  be cut by diamonds and that this is a very difficult procedure and that they  nearly indestructible. Convince me that it is possible for an icetribe and I will be glad to have learned something new.

Barbarians were known to be able to overcome any challenge, and based on the extremely harsh living conditions of the Northern Sarvonia continent is it wrong for me to surmise that a barbarian tribe living under such extremes couldn't pick up a stone and bash something until it is dust?
With what? Does diamond break if you bash on it with a stone? 

 But My confusion doesn't stop there, If the substance undergoes a chemical change when burned, not directly mentioned since chemistry is a modern term that has raised much debate in other postings, that changes the hardness of the mineral from being soft as wood when soaking wet, to as hard as adamant when completely dried out and essentially heated up. What is so unbelievable to think that some one, even from a barbarian tribe, couldn't figure this out and carve a weapon out of it when it is soft and wet, then dry it out and Heat it causing it to harden to be able to be used in combat.

You were right  not to describe the chemical way, but you didn‘t say either, that the weapons are formed before the hardening. But that was not the point Judy was making. (and which I picked up) She thought it is too much of possibilities this mineral has, less would be enough. 

I don't care what world you live in when explained as it is in the posting it is easy for one to assume that if you dry the mineral out and place it in direct flame its hardness will change. If I need to Go into detail as to how this process occurs I will but that would turn it into more of a chemistry lab report and less of a fantasy mineral entry that is supposed to keep it simple.
You were never asked to explain it this way. 

 Based on this post and as I am sure the many others like it, many of those who read it may decide that you are not going to like me or even want to deal with me.
Would I spend time with your submission if it would be the case?   
 I don't want it to come to that but if it does than I am only going to handle the situation the best way I know how. In the realm of fantasy we learn one thing and that is the line between the imaginary and the realistic are often blurred together. As previously stated I have no problems with changing the wording or even rewriting the entry to make it fit everyone's vision, but If I have to give up my vision of what this mineral should be, as its initial developer, what is the point?

Where were you asked to give that up? 

"Myth is humanity's way of explaining the unknown", Ed Greenwood @ Dragoncon 2003

If the sea serpents in the entry are mythological? And one tribe is saying that they believe that the stones are the eyes of these serpents who were killed by the gods for coming to close to that tribes settlements. Unless someone tells me that a myth in Caelereth has to be made up of 100% pure Santharian fact, I am going to write entries that reflect my interpretation of the world of Caelereth based on the material presented to me.

   See comment above

My goal is that some day I can work side by side with all the members of the development boards and churn out quality entries that add to the continuity of Caelereth, this may not happen today but I am going to work towards this goal and the only way I can do that is, hey "Bard Judith or Tallia Sturmwind" if you know who the developers of the religious beliefs of the Ice tribes are, instead of telling me that I need to ask them, because to me this is a moot point seeing as I haven't the sightest idea who I am even supposed to be addressing, ask them to look at my entries and post responses that give me their input on how to improve the quality of the content and what is an acceptable method of delivery?

Well, with more time on my hands I would have probably set a link, but so I thought it would be obvious that you can find such information in the forum for cosmology ..and religion, or asking who is currently working on it would have been a way to find it out as well.   

To me that is being part of a Team. Helping a fellow member by getting the attention of another who would be able to dictate just what is the best approach in their section of the Dev forums.

I agree, but on the other side you need to search for yourself as well, we are not enough commentators to lay every bit into your mouth, cut in small pieces, though we would even do this if there would be enough time to do so ;)   

 I value everyone's input and am eventually going to figure a way to implement all suggestions, but I am going to do it in a way that maintains the integrity of not just the world but the mineral its self.

Well, please point out to your future commentators where the integrity of your mineral was violated?


I hope this has answered  some questions without stepping on your toes again. :)
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« Reply #20 on: 02 September 2007, 03:39:46 »

I have updated the posting I hope it has fixed some of the questions on it. I know it still needs work but I have been working long hours that have made editing it the last couple of days difficult but there are some small changes.
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« Reply #21 on: 02 September 2007, 16:28:58 »

Okay I have gotten to rework part of the myth lore section of the posting, changed the way that the stone is perceived by the vertans as well as expanded some of the details about its usage. I will continue to work diligently until the stone is complete.
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« Reply #22 on: 05 September 2007, 05:01:20 »

Ok, let's see Vehrok...

- General note: If there are quite a lot of changes throughout the entry, you don't necessarily need to mark everything with a different colour, as the maintenance work might get more complicated than writing the entry itself. In this case you can just state that you've updated e.g. the Overview section and we'll check again.

- Overview: "except of Northern Sarvonia" should perhaps be "except the Icelands Coast of Northern Sarvonia", as Northern Sarvonia is pretty huuuuuuuuuuuuuge. ;)

- Territory: "Saiph-Stone is found on the north westerrn side of the Icelands coast mainly between the settlements of Sirnil and Vertico." - adjustments in yellow, as there are other places as well where they can be found, so this shouldn't be written in such an absolute way.

- Usage: Should be split in some more paragraphs. It's just one large text block at the moment.

- The term of "arthritis" doesn't fit that well in a fantasy setting, so you might get rid of it and keep "sore muscle" alone or just point out that "weakening limbs at elder people" are treated, something like that.

- I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about that last part where you describe the exact amount of stuff that is needed for trading. For one this might change, and the question is (which perhaps isn't that sufificiently answered yet) how much of these Stormpearls can actually be found in this rather tiny region. To reach Santharia, these goods need to travell through half of the world, so I'd expect these stones to be very precious down there in Santharia, and not that widlely spread. The price therefore seems quite unrealsistic and I think isn't really necessary to include.

- You mention "Armeros" in the Myth/Lore part, but this is a Santharian god (southern Sarvonia), while the Ice Tribes live way up north. The religion of the Ice Tribes isn't elaborated in detail, though you can find something in the Ice Tribes entry under the Religion section. Altario has started a topic in the Religions Forum dealing with the Ice Tribe gods (see here), but there are no final decisions and entries yet. But you could ask there what God you might use for this myth here.

You know, there was a reason why I tried not to go into details of which God is involved when I suggested a myth - because the Ice Tribe gods are not clearly elaborated that much as of yet. ;)

-----------------

Summary: To me this is a great entry and pretty much ready, hope Talia will agree as well. You've definitely made a very interesting mineral here, and the entry is very thorough und well designed. Bravo, Vehrok!  thumbup
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« Reply #23 on: 05 September 2007, 06:37:38 »

Okay Art, I have made the suggested changes to the entry, I hope everyone enjoys it a little better now.
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« Reply #24 on: 10 September 2007, 02:57:51 »

Yep, definitely looks good to me. Let's see if there are still other comments, I will mark this entry for integration. - Well done from my point of view, Vehrok! :) - You can already plan your next crimes... azn
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« Reply #25 on: 10 September 2007, 04:14:05 »

Quote
Summary: To me this is a great entry and pretty much ready, hope Talia will agree as well.

As if i woiuld dare to say: i do not agree.  lipsrsealed
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« Reply #26 on: 11 September 2007, 03:55:57 »

Entry approved then, Vehrok, and marked for integration. Good work!  thumbup
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