Kavogerim - Dwarven Tongue

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[Mina]

How about P/B instead of F/V?  I don't know about slurring, but it would sound different.  Or, for something softer, perhaps H or W? 

[Helvíl Ypherén]

Yes, I did remove F/V to make the sound harder to the ear.

Hmmmm... the tenses made me thinking. I think I'll add one more tense.

Past tense - ate
"Just" past tense - just ate 
Present Progressive - Eating
Future Tense - Will eat

Just using english as my example 

The Just past tense (sorry no name for it yet) would be like a past tense but the action just happened not a long time ago. Of course, the length of time that would still be considered as "just happened" would be for the speaker.

And also, I am thinking of having the Kavogerim no consonant cluster (except for digraphs that are included in the alphabet). Meaning consonants are not allowed to be consecutive (most of the time). The regular formation of the words would be Consonant-Vowel-Consonant (like in Japanese).

All dipthongs (vowels pronounced like one syllable) would be formed mostly by "y" and "w" - semivowels. So for example (Not real Dwarven words): Ataul will have a and u will be pronounced as seperate letters. A'ta'ul not like if you would pronounce it in english as A'tau'l

What do you think???

[Mina]

According to Wikipedia, that would be the immediate past tense.  But I have no idea how accurate that information is. 

The idea of there being no consonant clusters should be alright in itself, you might want to consider how this came about, as it could affect the vocabulary.  The Kavogerim and Thergerim languages have a common origin, I assume, and ThergerimTaal does have consonant clusters.  Did the ThergerimTaal clusters arise from vowels being lost in certain contexts, or did Kavogerim clusters collapse to become single consonants? 

Most likely both occurred to some extent, but giving some thought to that might help with deciding what cognate words look like.  For example, suppose the ancestor of both languages had the cluster /nb/, which ThergerimTaal preserved, but in the Kavogerim language became just /m/ , so the Kavogerim terms for 'mother' and 'son' might perhaps look something like 'Eemar' and 'Umol'.  Of course, you don't have to go around working out every single change, unless you really want to.  It'd be more realistic, but probably also a lot more tedious. 

[Helvíl Ypherén]

Well I was thinking of this language having the rule: How you spell it is how you pronounce it or vice versa.
So foreign words will be "Kagoverimarized" (I have my own dictionary  )

Example the word: yehbol will be spelled as yebol (since I suppose h is silent)
Most th will become t

[Helvíl Ypherén]

I have finsihed the language here offline and I will be posting it within the next five days since I am quite busy. Then people can check if it is dwarven enough

How many words should I create????

[Bard Judith]

Well, unless you have a substantial vocabulary worth making an actual dictionary for (about a thousand), I would go for a simple list that has examples of how Kav differs from Ther, then perhaps the hundred basic words that every dwarf child should know   Some verbs, some nouns, a scattering of adjectives - people are not going to be translating texts into this tongue on a regular basic, so we don't really need more.

Say:  rock / deity / food / light / travel / eat / ... yanno, all the important ones!

[Helvíl Ypherén]

Hmmm... words that they might actually use in daily activites makes sense  . Since the Kavogerim and trading dwarves then maybe they'll have more words concerning communication with other races than the Thergerim

[Helvíl Ypherén]

Sorry but this will have te be delayed. I have college things to fix now Just graduated 

[Helvíl Ypherén]

Ready for comments... a part of it anyway

[Mina]

Dipthongs:
Ay, Ey, Iy, Oy, Uy

I'm not so familiar with these sorts of diphthongs, so I can't say for sure, but won't Iy be more or less the same as [i:] anyway? 

Kavogerim Alphabet: (Kavogerim adds the vowel "a" when reciting the alphabet)
A Ba Ka Da Dya E Ga Ha I La Ma Na O Pa Ra Sa Sya Ta Tsa U Ya

Um... this is not quite an abugida.  When representing the language with the roman alphabet, I think it's best to use it as an alphabet, rather than try to get it to work as an abugida-like system.  The actual script the Kavogerim use could be an abugida though.  Speaking of which, have you made one?  If not, maybe I'll have a go at it. 

Example: OKaanAtaUm = O (do) + Kaan (close) + Ata (eye) + Um (ing) = Sleeping
              Bag-oKita= Bag-o (before) + Kita (us) = Older or elder

This is mostly just compounding, which is a fairly common way of forming words.  You might want to include more information on other ways of deriving words, such as the Um suffix in your first example. 

Also, the examples you have seem quite oligosynthetic, with even a rather basic word like 'sleep' being a compound.  It's usually considered quite unrealistic, so you might want to avoid doing this too much.  Most of the basic words, like those Bard Judith mentioned, should probably be single morphemes. 

[Helvíl Ypherén]

Yeah sure you can create the orthography (I am quite horrible when it comes to drawing) 

The letters will be same but it will no longer be an Abugida as well.

[Mina]

I'll see what I can come up with then.  Might take a while though, depending on how long it takes for me to get inspired.  Is there any particular style the characters should have? 

I just noticed, you have phonemes represented by 'd', 's', 'y', 'dy', and 'sy', which might get confusing.  It shouldn't matter too often, since as you said consonant clusters are rare, but when clusters like s+y appear, is there any way to distinguish them from 'sy' in writing?  Also, your diphthongs end in 'y', which might cause similar problems. 

[Mina]

Are you still around, Helvil?  I just realised a possible problem: you can't say 'Kavogerim' in the language, because there's no 'v' sound.  Would only be a problem if you want 'Kavogerim' to be what they call themselves and not merely what others call them though. 

[Bard Judith]

Haven't seen any progress on this for a while.  Not holding breath.   I do not think a separate dwarven language has a great deal of priority for other developers, so it can wait for Helvil indefinitely afaic.   


Mina - totally correct.  It'd have to be 'Kah-boh-gae-rrrim'  - rather like Korean, actually....

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