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[Artimidor Federkiel]

Some short notes here:

An Earth mage could as well use the surrounding air as the focus in order to cast a spell on two objects. All entities (including the surrounding air) have all elements present. As the air contains the two objects, you have more Earth to work with as well. But it is hard to cast efficient non-wind spells with an air focus.

And basically the definition contains the terms "entity" and "parts of entities". Part of an entity was e.g. meant that you use the surrounding air, as it is only part of something larher, the part that you use for focusing.

[Azhira Styralias]

So...an earth mage can levitate a rock by focusing on the earth ounia in the air (partial entity) as well as focusing on the rock itself (entity). However, it is harder to do this as the earth mage is not sufficiently skilled in wind magic to be able to do, for example, make the rock dance to the tune of a mandolin...but, he can levitate it and perhaps project it forward. But again, not as well as a wind mage could.

Maybe yes? 

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

These rules are for the sake of development, not as an entry. It's to define, from a developer's standpoint, what is and is not possible with the magic system. So whether or not these rules are known by in-world characters is irrelevant. They might be continually searching for things that are clearly stated in these rules as not possible.

I agree fully with Fox here and I don't think, another way - defining only what Ximaxians are able to know/possibly know is possible at all, it is the wrong way IMHO. I think you can only derive what medieval Ximaxians know from a solid developers base. This base doesn't have to be complicated when finished, though it may sound complicated while thinking about it and pinning down what you want. You CAN'T just define, what the ximaxians know and say it is like in the middle ages here - for in RL the laws of Physics were given as you have to lay down Ximaxian physics now. The medieval scientists (and the modern as well) had such a true base and all the observations and conclusions (right or wrong) were based on this true base. You can't construct now only what Ximaxians know (which will be half wriong, half right) without running in great problems in a future time. As I said above, the ten commandments don't have to be very difficult to grasp once they are finished, but they have to be the firm base for further development.

@Judy

We may be making it all too abstract, is what I'm saying.  Why would a mage bother to construct an imaginary pyramid in his head, visualise points, and so on, when he would simply look at the concrete object in front of him and 'will' it to vanish- or catch fire, or whatever?   

I personally would prefer, if the Ximaxian mages would have to think a bit more complex to accomplish their spells. After all, they are the elite of the time and should be able to do so, medieval times or not. We have enough examples of great minds through history, from the greek philosophers to people like da Vinci. who would have mastered that task.
This focussing the will only (not thinking about how it works) to an object (or two in this case) is what clerics do. They don't think at what to do with ounias, but formulate their wish. A good Ximaxian mage won't have to think at the ounias either, but his way of doing magic should still be different from that of the clerics, require more than just "thinking at something and it will happen". There may be a lot of mages on the RPG board, but we should not mainly look there and do this work here to easen life there, but consider, what fits in the world. And there are not as many mages as cleirics, I assume. I considered mages  always as the Santharian elite, so we can expect sometzhing from them.

[Bard Judith]

Complexity is completely acceptable, nay, necessary  - I'm asking only if we can avoid a 'temporally biased' world view here.

The so-called 'primitives' of the South Seas did not have wheels, sewers, dress suits, or other manifestations of 'civilization'.  Yet they had an incredibly complex system of navigation which allowed them to travel great distances in simple boats - an engineering ability which erected vast monuments of stone - a memory which stored the subtle differences between hundreds of species of fish - some poisonous, some edible.... and so on.   


  'Complex' does not have to be the opposite of 'concrete'.  And 'simple' does not mean 'stupid'.   


Let me (appear to) digress:  To a very great deal I AM Bard Judith at home as well as online, because I live in a very simple way in a non-North American setting which has been strongly shaped and defined by my own creativity, religious beliefs, musical ability, decor preferences, survivalist/outdoorsman upbringing, and so on. 

Not everyone has that luxury - but... you would not be here if you did not have creativity and passion for something more than the mundane, the Muggle, the Terran, the everyday way of life!

 So, do I expect too much from developers, that they be able to think outside of their cultural 'boxes', or to be able to 'set aside' their thousands of years of accumulated knowledge (germs, feminism, anatomy, democracy.... )  and instead wear the shoes of their Santharian Compendiumist counterparts?

I don't think so!

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Frankly, I don't see, what that has to do with the above discussion. I agree wholeheartedly to what you said in your last post, but the base of this magic has been laid ten or so years ago and its complexity has partly to do with it.
I think here it is again the wish to make things consistent, so that , once it is laid down all further stuff can be build on. for this a base is needed, not what middle aged minds could make out of this. The creators of medieval worlds do not have to think medieval if they create a world, they have to look that the people living there act medieval.

I'm for an approach as well which is as simple as possible, but it might not be possible to describe it in a way that everybody who comes to this place grasps it in a minute. I would not want that. That would take away part of the fascination of the dream.

[Miraran Tehuriden]

"I would not want that. That would take away part of the fascination of the dream."

This is a dangerous thing to say, as it is different from "If simplicity is not possible, i will accept that." "I would not want that" would give the impression you are actively trying to prevent it from happening?


at any rate, i think the Bard is trying to say that we might as well develop the commands fro magic from a santharian point of view, constructing rules from our observations, instead of going reverse-order, and use our godlike perspective as developers to determine values, and have the observations fit to suit them.

[Mannix]

Okay, after reading through the discussion I got an idea. I did find the discussion a bit hard to follow, but I believe there was some disagreement over what an entity is. Is that still in disagreement? Or was it over the one focus on one entity part? Well, back to my idea. Just as a warning, it might not work, but if nothing else this will revive this discussion.

It seemed to me that there was some dispute over this making a desk invisible example. Arti suggested that you just manipulate the space around it and Coren, I think, said you could find a relation between the separate entities. My idea came from the mentioning of the plant pot as one entity. Couldn’t it be that an entity is what the mage interprets it as? Couldn’t they see the desk and its contents as one entity? I’m not really sure how to describe it, but if they can think of a plant pot, plant and all, as one entity, why not the desk and contents. Is it possible for the mage to interpret the desk and contents as one complete entity?

Sorry if this is just completely impossible and I have wasted you time, but maybe this will get the thread going again.

Edit: The more I think about this the more I am uncertain. The thought came to me at like 3am so that might be why. Oh well, it still serves as a large bump.

Mannix

[Coren FrozenZephyr]

That was precisely what I said: (1) if the mage can visualize/contemplate a collection of objects as one "concept" (the plant pot), he should be able to imo make that in its entirety his focus.

(2) The more complicated or random the appearance of the composite object, the more difficult it is to visualize - and hence, to focus on. In these cases it would be easier to focus on a geometrical shape encompassing the object rather than trying to commit all the contours of the object into memory. However, I do not see a difference between focusing on a sphere surrounding the object (the single focus Arti suggests) and my'three points describing the vertices of a triangle' example. Or to put it more accurately, is it logical to disallow a concept-based focus and then allow "applications through multiple points within the focus"?

(PS: In each case: Imo, the human mind cannot concentrate on two separate things at the same time. Therefore, you integrate disparate objects into a single conceptual unit which the mind can then focus on. Btw: You form concepts by identifying the relationship between concretes and integrating these concretes into a single mental unit This is the basis of concept-formation)

To this Arti disagreed. We then had difficulty understanding each other's objections and then the discussion disintegrated.

I agree that the purpose here should be to establish clear, simple rules and that as developers we have the power to define the laws of Caelereth as we wish. However, I think the rules should be logical and justifiable.

I also agree with Artimidor that we should not approach magic discussion like modern scientific problems. That said, the arguments I put above are founded in logic not science/technology. And I do not accept that these should be too complicated for the Santharian mind to envisage, especially not for mages who have devoted a lifetime to its study. Aristotle originated most of these principles of concept formation and logic, thousands of years before the middle ages.

To illustrate my argument: Imagine a disk with two co-centric circles, the outer one shaded in blue and the inner one in red (somewhat like the dartboard). How would the mage make ONLY the blue part invisible (so that what is left is a smaller, red disk)? I do not see how this is possible  with Arti's model of only focusing on a single sphere/target encompassing the WHOLE object.



PS: A related issue we need to discuss: WHAT IS THE DEGREE OF MENTAL EFFORT/ATTENTION REQUIRED: imagination vs concentration?

Eg, A bookcase filled with books of many different colours and sizes. I can perfectly imagine all of the books becoming invisible to reveal the empty bookcase in the background. However if I need to manipulate the carall of each book (increase the wind property of invisibility) by focusing my will, I do not think this is possible. You cannot simultaneously manipulate several targets (and I believe this was the rationale of Arti's rule); instead you need to find a single conceptual unit for your mind to hold on to: eg the geometrical shape defined by the spaces between the wood of the shelves (sort of like a six-pack figure)



degree of mental effort/attention required: imagination vs concentration

[Miraran Tehuriden]

Then you may also be able to let several stacks of books disappear that do not form one physical unit, (eg, the stacks do not touch eachother) by integrating the separate entities into one entity named "the stacks of books"

Even if there are, say, bowling pins inbetween them.

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[Artimidor Federkiel]

Last 10 Shouts: Artimidor Federkiel Yesterday at 17:14:39 If it works, sure! Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin Yesterday at 16:47:05  Art, is this your little way of forcing me to do an entry? Irid alMenie Yesterday at 14:01:26 I see the board has been deactivated. Lets hope for a quick solution! Artimidor Federkiel 16 May 2013, 22:20:50 Files have been replaced again, but the question remains how long this will last. SMF support will have a look at the security problem. Artimidor Federkiel 16 May 2013, 17:26:47 It has been hacked. The third time in 3 days. I need to replace the changed files again (won't happen before evening) - and then see what the SMF support recommends as a strategy. Irid alMenie 16 May 2013, 10:06:36 Arti, could you maybe take a look at the RPG board? I got a message from my anti-virus program and now I can't access the column on the right with the list of current threads and the shoutbox. Thankies Artimidor Federkiel 04 May 2013, 13:50:24 Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 03 May 2013, 19:31:50 got it! The menu to the left is so convenient, that I nearly forgot the old souce... Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 03 May 2013, 19:23:01 Artimidooor.. could you please add the Northern Sarvonian Tribe's map to the map menu? As you know, my mouse over does not work I could't find it right now, though I know it does exist somewhere. Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 30 April 2013, 23:32:56 Huhu, huhu, huhu, ..that was my owl..

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Artimidor Federkiel

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

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[Irid alMenie]

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[Artimidor Federkiel]

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[Artimidor Federkiel]

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[Irid alMenie]

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[Artimidor Federkiel]

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[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

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