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Bard Judith
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« Reply #15 on: 04 September 2008, 21:01:05 »

Az has understood what I'm getting at, and rephrased it very nicely.   Not 'saints' because that has too many Terran connotations (as we also decided had 'angel'), but folk heroes, demi-gods, representatives of the sacred.....

I'm going to try again to explain what I mean by balance, and it has nothing to do SPECIFICALLY with the hobbits' beliefs.

  We have for a long time had a large number of demons, demonic powers, evil spirits, ghosts, and the like developed and accepted to the site, and if one reads through the various supernatural entities one can come away with the impression that Caelereth is a seething hotbed of nasty, malevolent, destructive entities just waiting to tear humankind (hobbitkind, elves, dwarves, and other sentient beings) limb from limb as soon as possible.   I have wanted to develop or see developed something like dryads, nymphs, devas, asparas, or quasi-angels (though that's not the terminology I would use, of course), guardian spirits, or 'saints' for quite some time, just so that there is a fairer 'balance' of supernatural power in the Caelerethian universe.


"Oh, look!" I said to myself upon reading the descriptions of 'Liran', and thinking back to Dalireen.  'These characters look like ideal candidates for just that kind of positive energy - not gods per se as we already have a pretty heavy pantheon - but semi-divine, holy, or revered individuals who might even have lived at one time!"   Thus my suggestion that we make them 'saints' (terminology aside) - or 'avatars' - those who take on the aspect of the divine principles of joy, love, eating, and so on.   

Am I making a bit more sense, here? 

Of course, I see that both Art and Az have suggested that there could be 'rebels' and 'tricksters', and since we don't yet have a  Kokopelli, Raven, Loki, Coyote, or Ananzi figure - if you don't count Gebl the Rebel - a hobbit avatar would be the perfect representative..... think about a trickster hobbit and the world trembles!



Nomenclature ideas:

Senes (pronounced 'seenz' and suggesting 'senior ones')
Laire and Lairi (male and female versions, used as titles)
Gaef and Daem (ditto - archaic versions of "Gaffer" and "Dame")
Sanks (just as it sounds - a hobbitized version of the Tharian 'sanctified')

Those would be titles, but you could also do something completely different.  Hobbit clans/families are pretty important to them (Proudfoots, Underhills, etc.) so you could create a 'mythological' clan name that is given to all the hobbit 'saints', no matter their origins!

Thus:  "Dalireen Blessedvale", "Liran Blessedvale", "Duffin Blessedvale", "Odelve Blessedvale" (in charge of gardens and gardening, of course!) and so on.  They might then even be known as 'The Vales" for short...

Wait wait!  I just realized that Tolkien's demi-gods - from the Silmarilion for those of you who've read it - are known as the Valar!   There are some schools of thought which hold Tom Bombadil to be a Valar, for example.    So just how perfect would THAT be?


Can you not just hear a hobbit farmer in the tavern:  "By the Vales, Hubert, if this year's carroot crop does'na get topwilt like the last one, I'm set to marry  my Serribell lass... Hey!  Where'd my pint go?"



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« Reply #16 on: 04 September 2008, 21:04:41 »

P.S.   Nice definition here - see what you think!

"The anthropologist [4] Lawrence Babb in an article about Sathya Sai Baba asks the question "Who is a saint?", and responds by saying that in the symbolic infrastructure of some religions, there is the image of certain extraordinary spiritual persons who are "commonly believed to possess miraculous powers", and to whom frequently a certain moral presence is attributed. These saintly figures, he asserts, are "the focal points of spiritual force-fields," exerting "powerful attractive influence on followers but touch the inner lives of others in transforming ways as well."[5]"
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Mannix
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« Reply #17 on: 04 September 2008, 21:22:37 »

Ah, I get it now. buck Sounds like a great idea. It is pretty similar to where I was going, so it should be fine. Thanks Judy!
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« Reply #18 on: 05 September 2008, 03:30:03 »

Yes, I think as well that the concept of hobbit "deities" perhaps needs to be thought about and concepted a bit. As what we have on the site is Dalireen, who is called "a hobbit deity", while maybe it isn't entirely clear in what hobbits believe in general.

That Dalireen was made a "smaller deitiy" perhaps isn't enough, as it's still named a deity that reminds of more human perception of belief. How she was characterised isn't really a deity anyway I'd say, but more something like a spirit, a happy presence. Or as Judy suggests a saint, an avatar. In the Dalireen entry there is a story that she was a hobbit that was heard by Nehtor sing and dance and that he was enchanted by that. Well, the fact that hobbits believe in the same Gods (Nethor) as the humans isn't particularly ideal, so I'd consider dropping that eventually. But we have characteristics of "saints" here - of real people who stood for an idea. Iin this case it would be more the idea of joy and merriness instead of the belief in a specific God. And later on people still believe somehow in her presence, just like saints are supposed to protect people on travels, or the house from burning etc.

I guess there's a lot more potential and fun if we work in this direction instead of making these "deities" the 14th and 15th Gods as additions to the human ones... :)
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« Reply #19 on: 06 September 2008, 13:32:26 »

Arti, one thing jumped out at me from that post that I strongly disagree with. You said we should consider having the hobbits not believe in the Twelve, but to me it fits perfectly. Firstly, we don’t have to make them their own set of gods for everything in the world. Secondly, as I am sure you all know, the hobbits are a relatively small race. Over history they have become closer to the humans, and even elves. Because of this, I believe that they should have adopted the deities of these two races.

Mannix
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« Reply #20 on: 06 September 2008, 15:36:16 »

Personally I'm not so happy with it, but let's hear more voices.

I'm not so happy with it, because the humans already believe in elven Gods, and if the hobbits believe in these Gods as well, it's the whole thing all over again. But as long as there isn't tremendously much developed on halfling belief we could give them a new religious perspective in the long run which is fresh and fits better to the hobbit race in general. Hobbits could have an entirely different approach - personally I miss unique concepts a bit as far as religion is concerned. You know, we have typical Gods in Santharia, in Aeruillin, in the Kuglimz lands, in Nybelmar etc. So why not try our hands on a more, say, relaxed, more saint-based hobbit system? Here we'd have a chance to try something different.

Then there'd be no need to have all that human shrines standing around in hobbit territory etc. As they have another culture, haven't they? It reflects in their life-style, so why not in religion?

That's just how I'd see it. Comments, concerns, contradictions welcome!  cool
« Last Edit: 06 September 2008, 15:39:46 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged



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« Reply #21 on: 06 September 2008, 16:49:42 »

Yes Arti, but the Hobbit are incredibly similar to humans, and to a lesser extent elves. I agree that they have a different religious perspective, but I believe that this works with the Twelve, as I'm guessing Rayne did. They would view the Twelve differently to the humans, just as they themselves would see them differently to the elves. In fact, to me, this idea of inventing a whole new religious system for the Hobbits wouldn't fit with Judy's. I just don't think the hobbits should have new gods for everything. We'd have to create ones of everything the Twelve reign over. Additionally, the Santharian alliance, as I'm sure you know, was made of the elves, humans, dwarves and hobbits. Now these all believe in the Twelve, which I'm sure helped them unite. Religion can be a big barrier. I don't now too much about dwarves, but I believe they believe in Trum-Baroll, or Urtengor, which is at least on of the Twelve. Also, I think they have what I guess you can call demi-gods. This is what I was aiming for with the hobbits. This wasn’t because I read this dwarven belief info and decided to do the same, as I read it after my plans for hobbit religion.

I don’t want to sound selfish, but ever since I decided to focus on the hobbits I have made plans for them. Having them worship the Twelve fits in with these plans, as it does with most of the info on site. I know I'm only an apprentice, and so don't have as much say, but I think that since I am the one doing the most development of them right now that I should have some sway. I understand you want originality Arti, and I do too, but I don’t think we should change things just to get this originality. Having these hobbit deities makes them original compared to humans and elves anyway. I hope you don't take any of this personally Arti, as it really isn't meant to be.

Mannix
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« Reply #22 on: 06 September 2008, 18:51:41 »

Hallo, hallo!   I hear my name...

(reads carefully through the thread again and looks in detail at the post above)

Let's step back a moment and refocus.    There are some misconceptions in your last post that perhaps come from too narrow a perspective, Mannix.  If I may address them?  I think I can see more clearly what Artimidor is getting at - and as our Dreamer Prima and resident philosopher, he deserves to have his suggestions considered with a bit more care- but this is also my perspective on hobbit life and beliefs.   

First: you state: I just don't think the hobbits should have new gods for everything. We'd have to create ones of everything the Twelve reign over.

That contains a number of misconceptions right there.   The Twelve don't cover every aspect of human (or hobbit) existence!   They are rather similar to the Greco-Roman pantheon, which means that they represent a particular historical concept of deity.  There could be one god which rules over everything, or a brother and sister which divide everything in the universe between them.   There could be a very emotional type of deity which needs to be constantly wooed and placated, or a remote, observing judicial sort who rarely interferes.

  If you were to look at the Aztecs,  you would not find a 'goddess of love', for example...  Native Americans frequently have a 'trickster god', which is not represented so often in other cultures' beliefs.   Jehovah of the Old Testament did the Hebrews just fine in all capacities, while the vast Hindu pantheon has gods for every conceivable idea and some just floating around unemployed at that!       Think more broadly, not just in the love/war/birth/death sort of duality which the Twelve have already set up.

Next:  Hobbits are indeed humanoid, but they are NOT merely short humans, any more than the Thergerim are!  I wasn't happy to take the stereotypical 'drunken gold-loving quarrelsome short guy' as a model for my dwarves, and I don't think the hobbits need to be shortchanged (um, sorry, NPI...) either.  They are rather like human children in their simple view of the universe, but they are capable of passionate love, fierce quarrels (and even murder), theft (mushrooms!), loyalty and incredible dedication (Sam and Frodo come to mind)....     The hobbits would do just fine without 'gods' per se at all, for they have a very uncomplicated and direct view of life which does not unnecessarily complicate things.  Does a child invent God for himself, or does he merely accept what his parents tell and model for him?

Let's look at what the site already has to tell us about hobbits:  "Hobbits are known for being fairly unobtrusive and fond of nature, peace, and are usually very quiet beings. They tend to be, not necessarily laid-back, but not hasty. They do not hurry unnecessarily and take time to get from one place to another, or to complete a project, believing that "good things come in time". They are often self-content and unassuming, especially when it comes to the things happening in the world. Hobbits do not often meddle in the affairs of "big folk"...Hobbits tend to be able to look lightly on even the direst situations, and are indeed known for such behavior."

Quick clarification on the Thergerim:  They believe in Trum-Baroll, who - as far as they are concerned - is the only god, who made all things through His forgecraft.  He HAPPENS to match rather well with the human idea of Urtengor (or, more likely, the human concept of Urtengor, over the years, was strongly influenced by the dwarven one.  This seems to have happened across the whole pantheon of the Twelve, incidentally, because humans make gods in their own images and wouldn't initially imagine an elven Arvins, a dwarven Urtengor, and so on. ) but only the most liberal dwarves (the Zirghurim) consider the possibility that a) they might be the same and b) there might be other spiritual / supernatural / divine forces.

The elves believe in Ava, which the humans don't.   The dwarves believe only in Trum-Baroll.  Why should the hobbits be identical to the humans, is, I think, a valid question to ask, given that they don't 'meddle in the affairs of big folk'...



Now, this isn't personal either:  the above is not a list of 'Mannix's errors',  :) but rather, I hope, a way of asking you to broaden your viewpoints and deepen your knowledge of this world.   You do not sound selfish, Mannix, and yes, as someone willing to take on the fun and effort of developing a race, you do have 'rights', though that's not the most tactful way to put it.  You do have to stay within certain guidelines - the suggestions of members who are perhaps more familiar with all the details of the site that have been established over years of work are often considered to be such guidelines.    We haven't, as you can see, suggested change for originality's sake -  a more accurate statement would be that we are suggesting fleshing out the bare bones of what is already there, removing obvious 'placeholders' (things put in for the sake of creating a paragraph under a heading), and giving these wonderful halflings their own unique belief system to match with their unique culture.

Here's the only salient mention about hobbit beliefs - which to me does not read convincingly or consistently in the first section anyhow - and does not make a good match for the description of their personality, above.  When Dalireen was developed, suddenly the hobbit philosophy made much more sense - her conception was far more appealing and a better match for hobbit 'worship' styles. 

" The "small folk" of the shire believe, usually, in the same Gods and Goddesses as elves and men to some degree. Avá and the Aviaría are known throughout most shires, but worship and prayer is not a common behavior among Hobbits, who would much rather celebrate Gods and Goddesses through song, dance, and beer, than through quiet and solemn prayer. Because of this, there aren't many shrines near or in shires. Religion is not judged as something terribly important among this little folk.  Hobbits do have some of their own deities, however, who, though not commonly known among elves and men and the other races of Santharia, are much celebrated and loved among the Halfing race. One such deity is Dalireen, who is believed to be the Hobbit muse of song, dance, and innocence. She is commonly thought of in times when inspiration is greatly needed, and called to in song instead of silent prayer."

Really, can YOU see a people who are described as 'neutral in times of war' having any faith in Armeros?   Folk who are happy-go-lucky to the extent that they can " sit on the edge of ruin, in the dying wake of destruction, and discuss the pleasure of cuisine" worshiping Queprur?    A small race who love shallow rivers and deep wells but rarely venture upon the great oceans being able to appreciate the vast power of Baveras?   

I just don't buy it.  ;)


Can we keep thinking about and discussing this, based on some of the points I've raised here? This will become a very important part of developing the hobbits more fully, and it shouldn't be based on a few placeholder lines!
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« Reply #23 on: 06 September 2008, 19:26:39 »

Thanks Judy. But please don't address me as if I don't know anything about hobbits. I have read nearly every entry on them. I did not seek to insult Arti suggestions, I just did not agree with them. Also, you say you hate it when people think dwarves are just small gold-loving people, well I'd prefer it ifg people didn't think of them as children. They are definitely not like children. What child would like talking about their genealogy? I have also mentioned many times that the hobbits would view the Twelve differently, just as dwarves would Urtengor. I never said hobbits should be identical to humans. I think this has all escalated because of misunderstandings.
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« Reply #24 on: 06 September 2008, 20:02:56 »

Why couldn't the hobbits have adopted a simpler, yet similar, perspective on the Twelve? Instead of worshiping the Twelve themselves, the Hobbits could have taken a few of the gods and made them into the Hobbit perspective only...they wouldn't worship Armeros, but they would have a figure representative of the sun, smaller and similar to Foiros. Or, they could have a happy version of a water figure, a woman perhaps, similar to Baveras but without the huge over powering presence of the Twelve goddess...

In other words, the hobbits are simple, so give them a version of the Twelve that is simple and "small"...give the hobbits their own versions of Baveras, Utengor, Grothar, Nehtor etc...change the names a bit, bring them down to be a bit more "closer to home" and give them a warmer kind of personality. This could perhaps accomplish a little of both ideals - the belief in the Twelve, but so unique in many ways as to essentially give them a different "religion".

We seem to be focused on "The Twelve or the not the Twelve?" so why not combine the best of both worlds? The Twelve worship is so ingrained in Santharia that I am sure not even the hobbits could have escaped their influence...especially being around human lands.

Now, if this were the North where the Twelve are not so universally known, I would think that the the hobbits would HAVE to adopt a different religion entirely, as the Kaaer or Kuglimz do. But the hobbits are smack in human Santharian lands so creating an entirely different religion would be hard to accept, or at least several traces of the Twelve would influence it.

Not making sense, perhaps...just my two sans...
« Last Edit: 06 September 2008, 20:08:09 by Azhira El´rosse » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: 06 September 2008, 20:10:53 »

That makes sense to me Az, because that is what I was aiming for. I never wanted them to be the same. For example, they may not worship Ameros as god of war, but god of judgement and justice. Queprur may be a bit harder to find an aspect for hobbits but maybe sleep or night, though that doesn't fit well, but I'm sure we could think of something. Thanks Az.

Edit: Okay here are some suggetsions for the hobbits view on the Twelve:
~ Eyasha - This can stay pretty much the same, but maybe goddess of relaxation. She would probably be the most important among the Twelve for thew hobbits.
~ Grothar - Again, this can stay very similar. I can't really think of anything that isn't weather.
~ Nehtor -
~ Arvins - I can't see a hobbit being much of a hunter, but perhaps Arvins could be the god of protection.
~ Queprur - As I said this is a hard one. My current ideas are sleep and night, but I am unsure.
~ Urtengor -
~ Baveras -
~ Jeyriall -
~ Seyella -
~ Armeros - Instead of war, he could be the god of judgement and justice.
~ Etherus -
~ Foiros - Probably very similar again.
More will come after dinner... :P

Mannix
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« Reply #26 on: 06 September 2008, 21:04:19 »

Mannix,  I did ask you - and everyone reading - to take some time to READ and think about what I said carefully, in order to avoid such misunderstandings.  If you insist upon picking out phrases and objecting rather than reading in context, that can't be avoided.   Now I'm afraid I'm annoyed, and that will come through in my tone, no doubt.

I have quoted extensively not to insult your knowledge of hobbits, although I had thought your main focus on the gnomes, but to provide rather important context for other people reading the thread - who I have, you'll note, asked to contribute their opinions as well.   This shouldn't become a polarized debate, with  Mannix vs Judy, or old dev'ers versus new ones,  or anything else of the sort.   This has become a discussion about creating hobbit religion/worship - a fairly significant part of developing and fleshing out an existing race - not merely adding a new deity, and I don't think any one person's opinion should prevail.  Let's keep it a focused discussion and refrain from personal asides or other distractors.


So far, let me see if I can sum up this thread:  You've made a suggestion for a new hobbit deity, I've commented and redirected with a completely new concept, and we've sorted out some misconceptions about that concept.  It seemed to be going well at that point.  Art spoke in support of the new concept, you objected to one element of his comment -  eliminating the Twelve.  I suggested that we all think about some different, creative ideas - not necessarily 'pushing' my original Vale/saint concept, merely hoping to broaden the definition of worship and religion on the continent - and you again chose to react to a few selected phrases, rather than comment and critique on the CONTENT of the post as a whole.  (No one, as far as I can tell,  has actually said that 'hobbits ARE children', accused you of ignorance about them, claimed that you 'wanted the gods to be the same', or anything else personal, so I'm rather puzzled as to why you are becoming so reactive about this.)

  Az has given a new suggestion, which she sees as a compromise.  No one else has seen that idea or commented upon it, and yet you've proceeded to spin off from Az's suggestion - while, apparently, ignoring the discussion taking place before.   

  I repeat:  could we please open this up for more ideas and concepts and comments, as both I and Artimidor have requested, before you continue with developing 'Liran' or any other deities 'based on' the Twelve? 
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« Reply #27 on: 06 September 2008, 21:20:29 »

Judy, I only wrote those ideas for the Twelve to show you my idea. I was trying to avoid misunderstandings again. I really don't want to annoy you, and I'm sorry if I have. I could blame it on stress, but maybe I'm just not being open enough. If that is so I'm sorry. How about this. I'll open a new thread called "Hobbit Beliefs Discussion', copy over the discussion and we can leave behind this unpleasantness. I really do like your idea and I'm sure we can all get this sorted out. I wasn't trying to pick out certain point, I think my head is just a bit muddle up at the moment. Sorry again.

Mannix
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« Reply #28 on: 06 September 2008, 21:30:58 »

(melts completely and is equally apologetic in turn)

I am sorry!  I was being snappish and defensive myself. 

And trust me, I could understand a 'stress' rationale (just learned I have plantar fasciitis and must 'rest'.  Ha. Ha. Ha.)

An excellent suggestion:  move the discussion (anything after the initial Liran post? As you think necessary) into a new thread and feel free to eliminate anything you think personal or unpleasant.    Forgive me, too?  I shall sleep better for it....



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« Reply #29 on: 06 September 2008, 22:15:39 »

Judy, of course I'll forgive you. I'd never want to hold a grudge against you. Anyway, I was more at fault. The discussion thread is up. If anything isn't right about the first post, or you think something else should be mentioned, feel free to tell me. :)
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