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Author Topic: logic vs belief  (Read 4375 times)
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bloodreborn
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« on: 14 December 2008, 17:41:46 »

I do not worship a god, instead i rely on logic and rational thought to get me through life.
my problem with gods or religion is that my mind works solely off logic alone and rarely use emotional thinking paths, so tell me how i could possibly place my faith let alone my entire being (like some people have ex. cults, world trade tower bombers, suicide bombers) in something that may or may not be real Where is the logic in that?

 Why not invest your faith in something real, solid and true instead of placing hope in a person or idea built up over time to be influential and then some intelligent person finally proves the religion or god false, then all you had ever believed in is obliterated......what type of decency supports that?

basically what i just said in a nutshell is:

idealists have faith

realists have truth


 Does anyone agree, disagree, relates or is neutral?


 I am interested in the others opinion's on this subject.
« Last Edit: 14 December 2008, 18:32:11 by bloodreborn » Logged

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seth ghibta
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« Reply #1 on: 14 December 2008, 18:56:39 »

i'm a devout atheist, so i can see where you're coming from, but theres two points i'll draw your attention to:
1. truth is always circumstantial. part of the idea of science i that we're not allowed to say "definitely". there will always be the possibility of a new idea coming along and turning everything upside-down. personally i like that, but i also see the value in holding some things to be true outside of facts and evidence one way or the other, like that it's always wrong to kill people.
2. stories are one of humanities defining qualities. theyre brilliant, they last, and the ability to tell them and to suspend our disbeleif for theyre duration marks us out as truly extraordinary creatures, though i'm not necessarily saying we're the only things that do it. religion consists to a significant extent of stories, and that's why i love it and enjoy learning about it.
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« Reply #2 on: 14 December 2008, 19:16:13 »

Well I'm not much of a philosopher but I am a Catholic. I go to church every Sunday, well usually vigil because it is just easier, I go to a Catholic school, but do have my disagreements with the Catholic Church. But if there is one thing I have learnt from the bible, it is that you shouldn't rely on God to do everything for you. I agree you should rely on logic, but I don't think that this clashes with relying on religion. You rely on religion where logic fails. When you need comfort for example, religion can often help. I believe the most important part of Catholism at least, since I don't know as much about other religions, is the values it teaches, most importantly, love. You don't not truly need to believe in God to love, but I believe it helps. But of course, I still think the other aspects of Catholism are important, except those crazy traditions like only male priests. And that is what I'm saying, I don't decide I'm not Catholic because I don't agree with some thing, because I agree with the central aspect, as Jesus put it, the most important commandment, love. Now this is just my opinion so feel free to disagree. And sorry that it sounds sort of preachy, it's not meant to be.

Mannix
« Last Edit: 14 December 2008, 19:18:01 by Mannix » Logged

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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #3 on: 14 December 2008, 19:44:15 »

Ah, you most certainly inspire some very interesting debates, Reborn!

I personally follow a middle way between the extremes of logic and faith. I have concluded that emotion, belief, and willpower, must express force. As force cannot vanish into thin air, all the beieforce of, say, christians, must go somewhere. Now, these people are all focussing their belief on one point, their God.
So somewhere, metaphysically speaking, there is a humongous buildup of power doing nothing. Unless you assume that, because the believers are giving their focus a form and purpose in their minds, the power buildup will start assuming those properties. This would mean that there IS a God, and that he is just like the bible sais he is.

Because we made him so.

Through this, i have concluded that every religion must be true, for a certain value of true. Which made it kinda pointless, not to mention in most cases impossible, to follow just one. And you can't follow more than one, so i continued to believe in all Gods, yet to worship none.



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« Last Edit: 14 December 2008, 19:52:35 by Miraran Tehuriden » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 14 December 2008, 19:47:32 »

I would suggest avoiding discussions of real-life religion, sexuality, or politics in these forums.

 They are all topics which time and again have proven to be more inflammatory than helpful, and the chance for offense and offensensitivity is much higher in a text-based conversation than even face to face.  (Kudos to both Seth and Mannix for having expressed their seemingly opposite-spectrum views so courteously and carefully, though.)  While we do not actually have a ban on such topics, and indeed have this specific board for "non-Santharian stuff", again, this is a strong recommendation to caution; opinions are never 'just opinions' but are integral parts of who you are.  And one can never, through logic, emotion, persuasion, threats, or candy, actually 'change' another person; psychologists tell us we should not even try.    

So shall we all wander back into Caelereth and see what needs doing together?  I know I'd love a couple of Quennys partners, the gnomes are still wondering what's going to happen with their language, and Mira's plants need watering in the worst way...
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #5 on: 14 December 2008, 19:53:53 »

I dont realy see the harm, as long as everyone remains civil. These things are fun to partake in or watch, and we will lock and/or remove them would they get out of hand.
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Avrah Kehabhra

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bloodreborn
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« Reply #6 on: 14 December 2008, 20:57:43 »

to Seth's comments: truth is truth you cannot bend it by saying the defiantly does not exist in truth-\  for truth to be complete then the truth must be completely true other wise it is no longer the true truth

to mannix's comment's: very wise, but in fact if you used both religion they would clash, an example of this is say you picked an apple from a tree the skin was red and healthy looking but when you felt it, it felt soft now unable to decide which you trust more the belief that the outwards appearance of the apple leads you to believe or your own gut telling you that something is wrong with it.
So you would not be able to decide on your own because both sides logic and belief would be telling you different things.

to Mira's comment: what you just said is the most common and annoying paradox i have ever heard.
if we created god but all religions claim that the god created us then that means that we must of created each other at the same time.........but if we did not exist intill the other crated its creator then it is impossible......basically chicken and the egg.

to Judith's comment: you are wrong there is a point of discussions like this one they give us the personal opinions of others and allow us to see the flaws in our argument and then develop our own way of thinking.

no two minds think alike
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #7 on: 14 December 2008, 21:04:02 »

I do not see the problem of conflicting paralel truths. More than one thing can be true at the same time, even if those truths are opposite of eachother.

Also, i did not use the chicken and egg idea. I claim that man made God, not that God made man. God thinks he/she/it made man, because that is the way God was made.
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Avrah Kehabhra

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seth ghibta
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« Reply #8 on: 14 December 2008, 21:08:10 »

put as nicely as possible, i suggest you try not to outright deny merit in another's opnion, but see the best in it and make an effort to consider it before saying "you're wrong".
i thought they were really well put opinions on both sides, and Miraran especially i love that idea. thumbup thumbup
Judith i agree that, yeah, we probably shouldnt take this discussion much further, though it's nice to hear your opnions once in a while. grin
now, where did that mollusc get to - turns back to following slime trails -
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Tharoc Wargrider
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« Reply #9 on: 14 December 2008, 21:28:24 »

I usually try not to get embroiled in discussions like this, but as an atheist living with a practising Christian wife in a religious settlement (Don't ask. It's a long story!), I'd just like to say that just because I don't believe doesn't mean that there isn't a God. If someone else believes that there is, then surely, for that person, he does exist.

Without wishing to sound indifferent, I don't actually care what my Caelerethian friends believe in. All I know is that they made me welcome, and have continued to show me respect and warmth. When I seek their opinions, they share them freely, hopefully in the knowledge that I will not take them to task if they don't parallel my own.
Open your eyes, ears and heart, and you will surely become a better richer person, I say.

Here endeth the first lesson. :P
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« Reply #10 on: 14 December 2008, 23:24:23 »

.... i spent a lifetime trying to answer these questions.  And in a way still try, though with a different tact now, an illogical one.

.... because logic didnt work, though i took it almost as far as it could go.
Finally, like the tip of a blade made too fine, it became like dust.

.... but this much I know by faith, you exist and you can feel both joy and suffer, and I surely would rather that you felt the former.

.... also this much I would add by logic - no word can reach to the level of the truly divine.  But that does not mean there is no God.

Without arrogance or presumption, we can still honour all that IS, and all that COULD be. 

Thank you all of you for your thoughts on this thread...
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« Reply #11 on: 15 December 2008, 00:04:24 »

When I was young, I believed in science.

When my wife had to have an emergency C-Section 10 weeks early, and my daughter was born premature, and I was allowed for only a matter of a few precious seconds to touch her (my daughter) and she wrapped her incredibly tiny fingers around my pinky finger....

At that moment, all of the incredible advances in science paled in comparison to the magic and miracles of God.

I do not go to church.  I do not pray, other than a few frank conversations with Him, that I sometimes do in the privacy of my own home.  I know that you will argue that science saved my wife and child, but regardless, in my heart I believe.  I don't know why, but I do.  Perhaps, that is the real power of faith over logic.

Just my humble opinion.
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #12 on: 15 December 2008, 01:49:14 »

I am a devout Christian.
And I have had 17 years experience in the field of existing in a world where both faith and science are ever-present.
To this day, I have never seen a single, legitimate, conflict between the two.
And blood, don't tell me you exist PURELY off logic.
Everyone has emotions, and every time you exhibit the anger you seem to have become notorious for, that is most definitely an illogical path.
But that aside.
I have faith, not because I demanded it, but because it was given to me. I can not prove Him, I can not see him, but I have, beyond a shadow of a doubt, felt him, heard him, known him.
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Some men aren't looking for anything logical like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. - The Dark Knight

Wisdom begins in wonder. ~ Socrates

A government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it- HD Thoreau
Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #13 on: 15 December 2008, 02:11:21 »

I feel as you do, Nsiki.  As a devout Christian myself, I have never encountered a legitimate conflict between faith and science.  And that's with 37 years of experience.   I'm not saying this to be inflammatory, or condemn anyone, just saying how I feel.

I also agree with Tharoc, that what you believe does not need to affect our friendships here.  I have many good friends (both Dreamers and non-Santharians) who do not share my beliefs.  And we can enjoy those differences and not be separated because of them.  I'm reminded of a comment made by the late Ruth Graham, when asked if she and her famous husband Billy agreed on everything, said "Of course not!  Why, then there would be no need for one of us." 

There's a need for all of us here, from the earliest "old-timer" to the most recent newbie.  That's what makes this fascinating and wonderful world what it is.



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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #14 on: 15 December 2008, 02:19:17 »

Huzzah for inter-faith (or lack of therof) camaraderie!
I have to say, its things like this that make me really love this site :)
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Nsikigan Yourth, Eyelian extraordinare.

Some men aren't looking for anything logical like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. - The Dark Knight

Wisdom begins in wonder. ~ Socrates

A government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it- HD Thoreau
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