An argument.

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[Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth]

WIP
Custodians of Querper: The Undertaker's Guild

Basic Overview
In the city of Nyermersys, in the far north of Santharia, there is an ancient necropolis. Over this massive grave sits the beautiful, if somewhat intimidating Temple of Querper. Its macabre archetecture has brought some of Santharia's most macabe minds together under one roof. Among these death-obsessed souls are the Custodians of Querper, also known as The Undertaker's Guild of Nyermersys. These morbid men and women have dedicated their skills and lives to the service of the dead, and by extent, the saftey of the living. Sickness follows death, it is said, and by properly caring for the dead, plauged regions find themselves miraculosly healthy, and free of stench. The dead pass on, under the careful care of the Custodians, and the living sleep easy - until their final sleep at the end.

Prevalence
The Custodians Guildhall is on the outskirts of Nyermersys, though several smaller chapters have sprung up in the more crowded cities, where sickness was once prevelant. These smaller chapters range from employing only four or five in some locales, to twenty or thirty in the larger towns. Nyermersys itself has about fifty full time undertakers and gravediggers, and an equal number of administrators and proffessors. There are around thirty students at any given time learning the trade in the Guildhall. Once these students graduate, they often scatter over Santharia, founding small orders of Undertakers.
TBC

Belief Outlines
If you are writing about the belief of a main cult, a very short summary and a link to the main religion entry and to the god/goddess entry will suffice. If you are describing a new (or until now not yet existing) cult, this chapter should tell the reader everything of importance. If a variation of the mainstream religion or a sect is described, the differences to this main religion should be pointed out clearly.

People - Appearance and Mindset
Who are those people? Do they look different to the rest of the community? Have they different clothing (if any...), hairstyles, scarring/tattooing, etc.? Again, mainstream ‚cultists‘ don‘t need to be described as thoroughly as special groups. The priests of the main religions have their own template, the clerics or representatives of smaller sects or cults have to be included though.

Do the members of the cult differ from other 'normal' people through their daily behaviour (not rites or ceremonies), do they have a different approach to daily life, are they set apart somehow? (Those who venerate Queprur mainly differ surely from worshippers of Dalireen.)

Food (optional)
Do these people have restrictions, what food concerns? Are they avoiding meat or live primarily on it? Are special animals forbidden to eat, because they venerate it or are the symbol of their god?

Weapons (optional)
Are these people famous for using a special weapon or are they preaching non-violence?

Coat of Arms/Symbols
Is there anything, a sign, a gesture, a symbol, a flag which would immediately be associated with the cult or sect? Are there secret symbols or signs which are only used to communicate to others members, especially secret signs which show, that you are a member of that group?

Organization
Describe here the organization structure (if any) and the roles of the members and leadership: How is this group ‚governed‘? Is it strictly hierarchical or are equals dealing with each other? Is it possible for everyone to 'climb the ladder' or is this restricted to certain persons only? How much is the single person included (or forced) into daily activities? Is he/she free to participate or are failures punished?

Worshiping Practices
What kinds of regularly rituals, practices, gatherings does the cult/sect do? Are they linked to the governing structure?

Festivals/Celebrations
Does this cult/sect celebrate any special holidays? Festivals? Sacrifices? How intense is the participation of the members? Are any excluded from special '
'events'? Are these festivals commonly accepted or doubted by some?

Temples/Housing
What kinds of temples does the cult/sect worship in? Do they prefer a specific type of housing or environment? Temples and housing does not mean that they worship in a physical structure of stone/wood. If they worship outdoors in the woods, on a mountain top or desert, describe that.

Trade/Production (Optional)
Is there anything only this group creates, produces, is famous for? (see e.g. the Cult of Fire)

Myth/Lore
What kinds of mythology surrounds the cult/sect? What sort of lore is associated with them?

Origin and History
When did this cult or sect come into life? (It may not be possible to pin that down). How/where does the cult has its origins? A historical event? (A war, a natural catastrophe, a lightning)? Was there a special person or group who initiated it or became the focus of veneration? Did it split from a mainstream religion and why? When did it split, was it tolerated at first, but persecuted later? How did this cult or sect develop later? Was it an underground group for years? Did its members decrease and rise again? What were the reasons? How was its influence on religion and politics? And so on...

Importance
What makes this cult or sect important? In what ways are they famous (or infamous)? Where did it influence society? Why is it worth to get an entry in the Compendium? Where lies the common interest in knowing more (about) it?

[Irid alMenie]

Nsiki, I know this is a WIP, but could you please make sure that there's no typo's/misspellings in your title at least? It just looks sloppy.

It's Queprur, not Querper.

[Takór Salenár]

Nsiki, I‘m seriously angry with you.

1. Why do you throw such an callow beginning of a submission at us, WIP or not, which is so badly researched? And without spellcheck? You have so many spelling errors in it that it is a shame you have posted it like this.

2.Yes, Talia proposed to take a Erpheronian city for your submission - but it would have been necessary to ask back, if it would be alright to take Nyermersys.

3. We talked about one city, not many.

4. Have you asked Art - and Koldar - if they are ok, if you want to add something to their entries?

5. You post your people under People, but use the cult template - I thought you were talking about a business untertaking and not a cult, for I do not agree to do a cult of Queprur as long as the priests/religion/magic thing is not settled.  


WIP

Custodians of Querper: The Undertaker's Guild

I'm not very happy, that you link them so closely to Queprur, an undertaker who helps the people to get their death family members buried is not a custodian of Queprur, that can only be a priest.

Basic Overview

In the city of Nyermersys, in the far north of Santharia, there is an ancient necropolis.

Wrong, it is outside

Over this massive grave sits the beautiful, if somewhat intimidating Temple of Querper. Its macabre archetecture has brought some of Santharia's most macabe minds together under one roof. Among these death-obsessed souls are the Custodians of Querper, also known as The Undertaker's Guild of Nyermersys.

NO, no, and no

The temple sits not over the graves

Quote Queprur entry:

Temple Design. The main objective of the temples of Queprur is to watch over the cemeteries, prevent thefts and protect the people from the revenge of the dead souls and thus they're built close to the graveyards but to provide also a place for the people to pray. Additional shrines are usually erected within the cities.
...
The biggest and most famous temple of Queprur is the Hightemple of Queprur in Nyermersys that was built at the vast necropolis of this city and possesses a main sanctuary of the Goddess of Death. The temple is more built like a fortress than a holy place which is mainly due to the history of this region.

Nobody allowed you to describe the look of the temple itself - who said it has macabre architecture? Or is intimidating?

Why should there be macabre minds together? Or death obsessed? The priests of Queprur have nothing macabre  - and an undertaker will probably not be allowed to have their business places there - not their offices, though they might have  to work  there as well. (more on the graveyard than on the temple - the undertaker is not in the church at the service!

Please don't try to influence unwritten entries (priest,temple design) with small remarks here and there. This is one of your traits I don't like at all.

These morbid men and women have dedicated their skills and lives to the service of the dead, and by extent, the saftey of the living. Sickness follows death, it is said, and by properly caring for the dead, plauged regions find themselves miraculosly healthy, and free of stench. The dead pass on, under the careful care of the Custodians, and the living sleep easy - until their final sleep at the end.

Why should they be morbid? What do you have for opinion of men and women who care for the death???

Prevalence

--> Territory, I would say

The Custodians Guildhall is on the outskirts of Nyermersys, though several smaller chapters have sprung up in the more crowded cities, where sickness was once prevelant.

Again, ONE city, there was no agreement yet, that they would exist everywhere.

These smaller chapters range from employing only four or five in some locales, to twenty or thirty in the larger towns.

See above

Nyermersys itself has about fifty full time undertakers and gravediggers, and an equal number of administrators and proffessors. There are around thirty students at any given time learning the trade in the Guildhall. Once these students graduate, they often scatter over Santharia, founding small orders of Undertakers.

See above, ONE city, not talking about the whole of Santharia, though we probably will need some - but there could be other solutions!


Nsiki, if you do not start working more thoroughly, doing your research more thoroughly and being more honest in what you are doing, (throwing that ‚thing‘ out was an effort to get something started which was not really agreed upon).

No, you don‘t have to ask ME, but whoever feels responsible for a certain area. You are still an apprentice, so please don‘t act, if you own that site.  


One - aura point.

[Takór Salenár]

In addition, to make the checking of your submissions easier, I would like you to post/quote all your sources you have dug up. This way it is easier to find up, what is already on the site and what you made up. Unfortunately I see this as an necessary request from past experiences.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

I like to add, that commenting more on other people stuff would be very helpful. You received a lot of time and comments on your entries, but as far as I have seen, you have just done 4 uris since the 1. February. Time to do a couple before posting own submissions.

[Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth]

Talia, I'm not acting like I own the site, just stand down for a minute. I'm just getting some very basic preliminary thoughts together. I had about fifteen minutes before I had to go out, and my microsoft Word isn't loading right, so I had to post it somewhere. I didn't have time to run the spellcheck, I was literally out the door.Yes, I'm aware this is quite riddled with mistakes, but its only the roughest of sketches. Please don't go bombing the minutae the minute you see it.

Anyways, I don't think it should be necessary to ask the author of a city or region everytime you want to add something to the area itself - a bestiary author would not request permission from Xarl if they wanted a blue glowing fly to appear in Ximax.

5. You post your people under People, but use the cult template - I thought you were talking about a business untertaking and not a cult, for I do not agree to do a cult of Queprur as long as the priests/religion/magic thing is not settled.  

I'm not using magic in any way, shape or form here. I was just using the Cult template as the closest thing to a Guild template I could find on the people page.

I'm not very happy, that you link them so closely to Queprur, an undertaker who helps the people to get their death family members buried is not a custodian of Queprur, that can only be a priest.

Why exactly is this? Priests aren't the ones who prepare the body for burial...

Wrong, it is outside

Please don't nitpick over consonants so early in this stage of the entry. Anyways, I mention it sits on the outskirts earlier. Yes, I looked at the map.

NO, no, and no

The temple sits not over the graves

From the Queprur entry:

The biggest and most famous temple of Queprur is the Hightemple of Queprur in Nyermersys that was built at the vast necropolis of this city and possesses a main sanctuary of the Goddess of Death.

Where does it say the temples are intimidating? I don't know, maybe in the quote YOU provided? Where it is said it is built more like a fortress? That certainly sounds intimidating to me. Perhaps the fortress is not meant to impress. I may be wrong. Wait, maybe not:

most temples look dark and unpleasing to most people.

Why should they be morbid? What do you have for opinion of men and women who care for the death???

Why do I think that those who make death their business would have a mind towards death? Perhaps I should not portray our warriors as violent in future submissions.

Talia, every move I take should not be analyzed as a threat, or debated about until my creativity is constrained. I'm not in fluencing other entries, here I only am creating off of what was already established, sometimes in the same quotes you provided. Please, please, please, try to be more open minded. If there is a general concensus, yes, I can create a "Works Cited" everytime I prepare a submission.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

my microsoft Word isn't loading right

There are enough other text programs for free you could use instead. Bad excuse. You should not have posted it in this meager form, not with so many mistakes.

Anyways, I don't think it should be necessary to ask the author of a city or region everytime you want to add something to the area itself - a bestiary author would not request permission from Xarl if they wanted a blue glowing fly to appear in Ximax.

I think you should, Xarl is not so readily available and not here anymore, but you should ask Mina, who has the province under her wings now.

I'm not using magic in any way, shape or form here. I was just using the Cult template as the closest thing to a Guild template I could find on the people page.

Is there a general consensus, that we will have guilds? Do we have guilds already? Why is there no template for it then? What about thinking about a template first before doing a guild?

Why exactly is this? Priests aren't the ones who prepare the body for burial...

I think I didn‘t like custodian, my dic told me a lot of meanings which belong to priests.

Please don't nitpick over consonants so early in this stage of the entry. Anyways, I mention it sits on the outskirts earlier. Yes, I looked at the map.

That is not a nitpick, but carelessness from your side, a temple over a graveyard is something entirely different.

Where does it say the temples are intimidating? I don't know, maybe in the quote YOU provided? Where it is said it is built more like a fortress? That certainly sounds intimidating to me. Perhaps the fortress is not meant to impress.

You said it, but that is the only thing, that I should not have mentioned, for as you said, a fortress is probably intimating.

If you write about anything which is connected with Queprur, your should read her entry thoroughly first, there you can find the description. Bad research, again.

Why do I think that those who make death their business would have a mind towards death?

Look in a lexicon what ‚morbid‘ means, then tell me, why they should be morbid. They are often loving and caring people.

Morbid=suggesting an unhealthy mental state, suggesting the horror of death and decay, e.g.

Talia, every move I take should not be analyzed as a threat, or debated about until my creativity is constrained. I'm not in fluencing other entries, here I only am creating off of what was already established, sometimes in the same quotes you provided. Please, please, please, try to be more open minded..

Nsiki, your attitude towards creating submissions caused that awareness regarding what you write.  It is not just me, who fears that with your entries something will appear which is just wrong, because you either do not research properly - or you don‘t care about honouring what we already have. (I looked e.g. at your Kytta entry and found an error, again you overrode an existing entry.) Or you lack the feeling what is right or wrong to write under certain circumstances.

Maybe you should be more open minded and try to listen to those who try to help you. It may sound often nit-picky, what I write, and it surely is, but I don‘t know no other way to convey to you what I mean. But, in my case, it is not a question of being open minded, you ask from me to be as careless/negligent? as you have been.

If there is a general consensus, yes, I can create a "Works Cited" everytime I prepare a submission

Please do that, it is our time we spend with your submissions and you can help with that to shorten it. I‘m sure Rookie agrees here. I don‘t know, if Grun still cares.

Please, please, show some more insight and actually care for the advise which is given to you. I‘m tired of spending my valuable time with writing such posts. And don‘t say, I should not do that anyway. I realised, I only can stop caring for those things, if I‘m not longer here.


I ask you now, for the health of our community, to not post any further submissions until I have spoken with Rookie and before you have done a couple of thorough urichecks on difficult submissions - which have cost you time to do, and effort.

And do take me seriously, I only post with Takór if I‘m really angry - or if it is important to throw in his weight of being cosm-mod.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Just my two sans: Yes, there are a bunch of misspellings and stuff in the text Nsiki posted, and yes, there are various assumptions in it that definitely should be changed or have to be toned down at any rate etc. It's very rough, sometimes very problematic. No doubt about that.

On the other hand I have the impression that what was posted here meets a mindset that doesn't allow any leeway for ideas or interpretation of what exists, where it is pre-determined how things shouldn't look like. And that's a pity, because while this very rough idea is far from perfect, it makes it impossible for someone to develop something in this regard, even when major adjustments are needed.

There's a lot to be done, but with the demands that are necessary to fulfill I couldn't do an entry in such a context either, and that's why I just don't. Yes, I reiterate that: Doing researches is necessary, asking for other people's opinions/corrections as well, but if a hammer descends on you instantly which leaves nothing there anymore to work with, this takes the fun out of everything.

So yeah, far from happy with the submission, not happy with the reaction to it either.

[Rookie Brownbark]

Edit: And I also see that there have been a few more posts whilst I'm writing this, but I'm going to post this anyway as I think it needs to be said, or I need to get it off my chest or something.

Seriously guys!  I mean how the hell are we supposed to work together like this?

Nsiki - did you really think that Talia wouldn't come and comment on anything with "Queprur" in the title, given the fact that she's the religions and cosmology buff and has done/is doing work on that priesthood?  Especially if it was something she hadn't known was going to be written, especially if it had big gaping holes!  I mean if you had posted a similar thing with "Brownies" in the title, I would probably also have been straight here and I would have pointed out the most glaring errors although I hope I would have used more subtle phrasing.  Burial practices are in no way the same as doing a new fly - how you treat your dead is an important part of who you are, your culture and your beliefs.  Which fly bites you is not.  If you can't tell the difference then I don't know how you'll ever become a member.  You say something about being allowed space to develop too - well can I point out that no-one else would try and do such a culture-based entry in an area they are not familiar with without talking to the relevant people first and checking they had their support?  This is why we tend to gravitate to one area or one tribe - where we are the experts, we have the freedom!

Talia - although I understand the temptation, these posts were not helpful at all to us working together as a team.  How can we work around the arguments in Nsiki's masterwork thread if everything is brought back to boiling point so easily?

On the other hand, if I'm completely honest I have often thought whilst reading your work, Nsiki, that it would be useful to know which bits you'd found somewhere and which bits you'd made up yourself as otherwise I have to spend ages checking myself - this is one of the reasons I've said so many times that you need to double-check changes and additions to a tribe's culture with the person who actually wrote it.

I also apologise if this is a bit blunt - sorry, but the situation seemed to need it.

[Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth]

Thank, to the both of you, I appreciate the level-headed response to this situation. Talia, while I still see several places where I don't agree with your second post, I'll disregard them for the time being, as its true- back and forth post bickering will get neither of us anywhere.

Actions now to be taken:
I will now post a "works cited" with my submissions.
If it also the concensus that I should not create any new submissions for the time being, then I shall abide. However, if it that is only Talia's wish, I may create new entries as the whim suits me, albeit speaking with the experts first.

Burial practices are in no way the same as doing a new fly

yes Rookie, I agree - a truly terrible example. :p

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Forbidding you to do entries whatsoever and demanding Uri checks on difficult submissions can't be the way to go, definitely not.

[Drasil Razorfang]

Perhaps then it would be in order to limit Nsiki to smaller entries, such as weapons, beasts, plants, ect. until the various experts in the various fields of his major works feel he is ready to begin work on them again?

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

@Rookie, I‘m sorry, you know how much. It is not an excuse, more an explanation: I was tired, frustrated and very disappointed.


@ Nsiki
 Nsiki, I apologize for the harsh tone, the form, not the content though. It was meant as a hammer and therefore I posted as Takór Salenár.

I thought you needed that. And would well be able to take that with a head so hard and stubborn as you have.  


I have accompanied you since your disastrous first attempt of doing a CD  , I commented on your first entries, though not I, but the mages told you what would not work, I helped you through with the Eyelians and with Kytta (though even with my help you managed to create an inconsistency). I spent endless time (as Rookie and others as well) not only to read and comment on the Ring, but to teach you what people expect in a team. I have  been patient (most times ) with you as with nobody else - for I did not meet somebody else who was so resistant to take an advice and who was such an minimalist with the required/desired  changes, if they were done at all.

I hoped, if I would tell you very clearly and in a nit-picky way, that you might understand, what you have obviously not understood this far: That your co-members have a right to get  thoroughly done submissions to read - WIP or not. Keep such notes on your comp, if you must throw them out.

http://www.haxial.com/products/textedit/ that‘s a free editor.


1. Every author and his entry should be respected, that means, research has to be done thoroughly to not violate the work and effort put in an entry. That does not mean, that creativity is forbidden, but as the freedom of the one ends at the freedom of the next, the creativity of a recent author ends at the entry already on the site. That does not mean, that no old entry can be revised or changed, but it should be done with CARE and not en passant, without even noticing. I had no problem with my creativity so far and with respecting what I found on the site. Maybe it is a bit more difficult then to be creative, if I have guidelines or restrictions, but it can be a chance also.

2. I think, and that is my personal opinion, that nothing should be decided about an unwritten entry which is not absolutely necessary. E.g. You should not write anything defining about the temple, if you not planing to do it yourself later. The author of the temple should have the choice what to write. The author of the Queprur entry had a clear picture of it, he invented this temple, so it is alright, if he writes, that it looks more like a fortress, but I think, not more should be added through a more or less attached entry. It is not important for the undertakers, how it looks. If you say, it has a macabre appearance, then you define more than the original author.

3. I did not want to constrain your creativity, when I said, you should focus on the undertakers of Nyermersys alone and not expand them on the whole of Santharia (the cities). Two reasons - it might be different elsewhere and there should be a consensus first, if they are able to work everywhere. (It could be a right of the family to do that). Basically I wanted to help you to avoid to do again a big project which you cannot handle, because too many things are connected together. It was only the well-meant advice to concentrate on one thing first, before you start to get bigger.

4. I still think, it would be a good idea, to do more comments/uris before you start an own new project. Your are behind. Why should you be an exception? There is however a wrong  wording from me - I didn‘t want to say, you should do uris on more difficult submissions , but to do them more in depth, to check yourself, if what is written is consistent with the site. Don‘t let only the others do the work while enjoying your own writing. A rule on poetry boards is to not post something own before you have not commented on two or three others. Poems are more or less short, so here we could change the rule to: Don‘t write three pages , before you have not commented on six others - or even written six pages comments.. (well, that is a tiny bit exaggerated ).

And - I didn‘t forbid you to do new submissions, as Artimidor wrote, I asked you.

5. My request to post your sources still stand. I think that would be a help for every commentator. For you (or anyone who writes a new entry) it is not much work to do it, the commentator has to search. Why should he spend his time when helping the author, if it would be much easier for the one who wants/needs the help to do so? Of course not, when something is obviously.

Alright, some last words. I was too harsh with you, I agree, and I apologize for it, but you have deserved it, don‘t you think so? Friendly reminders obviously didn‘t help, I tried now for as long as you have been here. This was for me like a safety brake. It might have even worked, ‚destiny‘ decided otherwise.

Before you answer, think, if I‘m not right. Be honest to yourself.

Nsiki, I wish you well, that your will learn to enfold your creativity in the boundaries of a team work, to respect your teammates and to learn that teamwork is an enjoyable together and not a giving in or giving up or having to fight the others to get the own ideas through no matter how. Bye.  

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

@Artimidor:


Sir Federkiel, is that what Talia Sturmwind deserves after more than seven years of dedication, passion, struggle and despair?

On the other hand I have the impression that what was posted here meets a mindset that doesn't allow any leeway for ideas or interpretation of what exists, where it is pre-determined how things shouldn't look like.

I don‘t know, who has here the narrower mindset. I at least give my teammates the honour to address them, even if I‘m harsh, unfriendly and annoying. I hope I was never mean though.

Why do you not dare to say:
Talia, you have a mindset that doesn't allow any leeway for ideas or interpretation of what exists, where it is pre-determined how things shouldn't look like.

Is that what you really think of me? Why do you not have the courage then to tell me, to leave your site, if I hinder it so much?

Why could you not just say:
Hey, Talia, step back, that was definitely wrong/impossible what you did. That would have been not as  condemning and you could have packed in it what ever you wanted to say and I would have accepted it.  

Or what about:
 Talia, you have here shown a mindset that doesn't allow any leeway for ideas or interpretation of what exists, where it is pre-determined how things shouldn't look like.

I might have even gulped down that and accepted, or tried to explain like above.

And that's a pity, because while this very rough idea is far from perfect, it makes it impossible for someone to develop something in this regard, even when major adjustments are needed.

I think you underestimate your developers, and you are wrong here, entirely, it is a mere statement with no substance. Nsiki (as others) needs to learn the ‚how to do things best‘ first, then those major adjustments (which would require again hard graft from others, not you) are not necessary, because he  does it right more or less from the beginning. Then a lot of development time will be set free for real work and not the teaching how to cooperate well.

There's a lot to be done, but with the demands that are necessary to fulfill I couldn't do an entry in such a context either, and that's why I just don't.

Are you saying here, that YOU don‘t develop because of ME?

Are you still angry with me, because  - in the seven years I‘m here two of your submissions didn‘t get on the site because some of us, including me, objected? And what about the comments on the Thaelon and many other entries I commented on  for you, sometimes because nobody else looked? Did I strangle your creativity there as well?

I may have hurled a hammer on Nsiki‘s hard scull, you threw an anvil at me.

But I‘m used to it already, so don‘t worry, this time I won‘t break.

So, if you want me to leave, so that you can start developing again, then you need to say it clearly and to ME directly.

Otherwise I try to keep some of my promises.

Thank you for reading.

The above mentioned entries which did  not make it to the site were:
The Dark Art of Witchcraft
The Twelvern

[Valan Nonesuch]

At the risk of my own neck here, I will point out that we just ended one "discussion" and that the sentiment was expressed that everyone should put down their cudgels and go back to what they were doing.
Can't we do that here?

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