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Author Topic: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)  (Read 15339 times)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #15 on: 23 July 2009, 05:28:49 »

Fighting about a lover? I don't recall the War of the Chosen being meant to represent anything like that. Coór against the rest in my opinion is also too simple. Things need to more complex and it was basically all about free will as far as I recall. Well, lots of work to do to make that all clear.
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« Reply #16 on: 23 July 2009, 05:58:40 »

War of the Chosen

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Queprur's Revenge. It was during this time that the goddess Queprur fell in love with the God of War, Armeros, but He rejected Her for the Jeyriall, with whom he had already produced the Titans in the Beginning of the creation of the world. This rejection caused even more fighting amongst the Gods with some siding with Queprur and others with Jeyriall. With nothing like a woman scorned Queprur turned her anger to the Children of Avá.

"Free will" sounds good, but the problem, complex or not,  remains, which gods have 'evil avatars' and why have exactly they the evil avatars?

Could you please set a link to that part where all is about 'free will'?
« Last Edit: 23 July 2009, 06:00:31 by Talia Sturmwind » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: 23 July 2009, 06:04:21 »

Like here in the entry:

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It was at this time that the Gods began to notice an important difference between themselves and the Children. The Children were given the freedom of choice to choose their destiny, and they were not.

It's all pretty sketchy once Capher took over to get his own story realized, so it all needs to be straightened out and brought into proper context.

And why should only the evil guys have avatars? There will of course be good avatars as well. And neutral ones. At least that's the idea. If they are directly associated with specific Gods needs to be thought through, this doesn't need to be a given. Too many questions right now, lots of information needs to be collected first.
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« Reply #18 on: 23 July 2009, 06:49:07 »

Just a ponder/thought I had about this ...

In the Arvins entry, it says the following ...

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Arvins is one of the three Gods dedicated to the Element of Earth. In fact, Arvins stands between the other two Gods of Earth as a sort of mediator between the powers of creation, represented by Urtengor the Forgelord, and the necessity of the transitory, executed by the Goddess of the Scythe

I'm wondering whether this in some way can be used in deciding what gods are 'good', 'evil' and 'neutral' in this sense and whether it can be expanded on with regards to the war of the chosen.

- Dek
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« Reply #19 on: 23 July 2009, 07:28:56 »

@Art:

I didn't say, that only the evil guys will have avatars, but , as I see all of the 12 gods more on the good side, who of those gods will have evil avatars. You could say, Queprur as goddess of Death is evil, or Etherus, but I didn't see them like this. Or is the god of war, Armeros 'evil' . I think not. So - who will have the evil avatars, be related to the evil Chosens??

Capher would have a solution, see his story, who sided with whom, but I never could follow these thoughts.

If they are not associated with a certain god, then it would be easier, but so far I understood you in this way, that ..

Quote
The thing with the War of the Chosen is that this is a war of guys that are extremely powerful, and why so - because they actually represent the Gods duking their battles out. The current concept already pretty much makes it clear that the Chosen are dedicated to certain Gods, have some of their abilities, so far just called "magical powers".
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« Reply #20 on: 23 July 2009, 09:10:49 »

An observation, if I may...

Perhaps - like personality traits - the gods themselves are powerful but neutral representations of natural forces (love, fertility, conquest, etc.)   Those forces can be interpreted as 'good' or 'bad' depending upon how they affect humanity.  ("I need rain for my crops, o Grothar, I beg of thee!" vs "Great Grothar, I pray that the weather may continue mild and dry for the great wedding of my princess-daughter this coming week!"  Whatever happens, someone's not gonna be happy...)  Also, avatars of the gods could, through their own free will, choose to represent the beneficial/benign side of a force, or the destructive/chaotic side of a force.

For example:

An avatar of Armeros is a noble, honourable warrior who uses his gods-given strength and skill to protect the weak and right wrongs - a paladin, if you will.
Another Armeron avatar is a cruel, manipulative fighter whose warcraft and strategic ability lets him overrun village after village, plundering and destroying...

A follower of Etherus could be a generous, loving woman, sharing the gifts of her body to relax tension and create self-confidence in others - or that same woman could be perceived as a lusty hussy who flits from man to man draining them of their vital essences....

In the case of the War of the Chosen, the gods allow their followers / avatars free will to represent them (the gods) as they (the avatars) will - within the full spectrum of their abilities, personal desires, and ends gained - which allows for both 'evil' and 'good' actions.  And let's not forget that the winners write the history books, so whoever has the quill is going to portray themselves as the 'good guys' and their defeated opponents as the 'black hats' - right?
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« Reply #21 on: 23 July 2009, 14:48:01 »

@Talia: The quote you put in yellow takes what is there and tries to establish the fact that magical powers are related to the gods in order to explain the avataric concept. There will be things that will have to change of course. We're still far from actually defining how this all works, so far these are just random thoughts.

@Judy: I guess what you suggest is much more like the direction I can get accustomed to. Remember, the War of the Chosen's initial idea was that the Gods are jealous of the Children's free will, which they haven't got. This is the reason for the war, so that the Children fight the battle they cannot fight themselves.

If avatars are always good or bad and they'd e.g. hand that over to the firstborn that would be boring. In Carnivale this is handled that way that the firstborn (son) gets assigned a random alignment (good or bad) - and develops in that direction then. If an avatar is killed and doesn't have progeny a random child is selected to become avatar. - In Santharia we could use the central theme of the War of the Chosen, the freedom thing, as the key to the development of the avatars. Persons could have the seed of being an avatar in them, and in the process of realizing it, can decide to use it for the one side or the other - or stay neutral. The Gods of course hope that the war is decided that way, but they don't realize that the eternal fight that reiterates itself is actually what the Dream is all about.
« Last Edit: 23 July 2009, 19:29:26 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged



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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #22 on: 23 July 2009, 15:00:35 »

Quote
Persons could have the seed of being an avatar in them, and in the process of realizing it, can decide to use it for the one side or the other - or stay neutral.

Can this seed be somewhat hereditary?  That way, my Witches and their system of watchers, and manipulating family lines can play a part in this.  Not a simple, "if my dad was an avatar, I'll be one too", but simply the prpopensity for such an occurance.  And a line with a tendancy to go toward one side or the other, can be influenced by such manipulation.  For example, the Smiths have had a propensity for having evil side avatars (maybe 3 bad guys in the many years of the watchers chronicalling this), so they (the witches) try to get a Smith to breed with a Jones, because that family produces more good avatars.  Or conversely, breed a Jones with a Brown because the Browns also have produced more good avatars, and they want to produce the Ultimate good guy.

Actually, my Witches are hoping to reset the dream, so they are more likely to want to breed a Smith with another evil producing family line.  But thats all secret stuff, and fodder for the rumour mills.  rolleyes
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« Reply #23 on: 23 July 2009, 15:46:23 »

Oh well, I think I will just wait some time and see, with what you are coming up. :)

Altario, I don't think, that there are people (your witches) which can have such a picture of the whole thing or be so set apart from the whole society, above history so to say, that they can actually manipulate the avatars. Maybe marry one to a certain other, but nothing which goes farther. I would even suppose, that they are not aware of those avatars, but acting more by accident. They have their genealogy plans and lines, but their own which might include an avatar, but they don't know it.

But maybe we should wait what Art comes up with and then ask him, if we could have a small piece :D
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« Reply #24 on: 23 July 2009, 23:00:48 »

Unless the founder of the Witchess was an avatar.. from the neutral group perhaps.. and over the many years and generations.. the knowledge has been handed down, but the message was corrupted...

And I don't want the Witches to be too powerful with too much influence on this... just fine manipulators and watchers mostly.
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« Reply #25 on: 24 July 2009, 00:43:32 »

I'm not sure if this will help for the entry, but when he died, Eckra the Cruel held in his possession this tome which in some senses served as a compilation of some of his knowledge.  The tome passed into the hands of Raeis Boldsnout, so in some sense he could be viewed as an avatar who succeeded Eckra way down the line.
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« Reply #26 on: 24 July 2009, 02:31:17 »

Everything on the site helps a bit to put the pieces together regarding the details of the lives of the Chosen, the question is how we'll rearrange things if it is necessary :)

Some more general points:

- A "hereditary only" system couldn't really work for various reasons. It would especially limit things drastically that are possible with the idea. Basically I would recommend that the divine power can move or be moved by another avatar, maybe in conjunction with being hereditary, into persons, and into objects. But I would warn of doing some sort of "gen pool" avatarism. Avatars are extremely unique beings and there are not more than a handful living at the same time. You'd devaluate the concept otherwise.

Some thoughts on where avatars can give their powers:

a) The avatar can realize his/her potential and the "dark side" or the "good side" can eventually define that person and make that person what it is, contribution to good and evil of the world in general if you so want. Indirectly my example of the Carnivale show which uses Earthen persons suggests that Caligula, Vlad the Impaler (=better known as "Dracula" in literature), Rasputin were a dark avatars, while Buddha and Jesus Christ were white avatars (just see it as an experiment of thought, not a religious statement) - and I assume the show would eventually have worked towards Hitler as the next dark one give the timeframe it takes place. So these would show the peaks of avatarism. Such people seem to have realized what potential they have and they used it to heal, resurrect etc. or to wage war etc. Note that it isn't really necessary that these people are directly related to a God or something, they might just do what they think is their role in the world.

b) The avatar might not realize these powers at all or rejects the potential, still the person is the "carrier". The powers would be dormant. Yet, say, the power could be inherited to the firstborn. (We wouldn't want whole generations of avatars so that needs to be limited.)

c) The avatar could give the power to someone else. Being able to direct the powers, it could be a willful act to hand the power over and get rid of it.

d) The avatar might die and the power searches for a new "host", e.g. "possesses" the next person around.

e) The avatar could channel the power and put it in an object (see the sword). This way an avatar might also find a properly aligned person to continue his/her task, as in case an avatar dies an object might hold the avataric essence. Only if a person properly aligned to that essence comes in contact with it, the essence might create the new avatar.

So we could work along these parameters, which gives us ample room to play around with it.

- "White" and "dark/black" are not adjectives I enjoy that much, guess some elven terms would fit better, they should be closely related to the elven view of the world.

- The avataric explanation behind the War of the Chosen and the avatars would be basically elven stuff (contained in the Mène'téka or something), the humans would have their own, very different, even severely contradictory stories. We have these in the Compendium already. But this is perhaps the time to finally clearly separate human from elven myth, as the humans tend towards "anthropomorphisms" like Gods courting other Gods and stuff, just like humans do. The elves see the Gods entirely different, and the reason why the War of the Chosen was/is thought would be very "elven". Humans might not believe a thing of all that.

- Once again: The avatar thing would not be plainly obvious everywhere. If the War of the Chosen entry is rewritten, we'd just construct the possibility of avatars from some sages' points of view, with some quotes etc., only suggesting such things and mention possible connections. So the ideas behind all that stuff would be mainly something for developers to be able to connect things a bit better behind the scenes, and that's it. The entry would still be written very ambigously.
« Last Edit: 24 July 2009, 02:35:32 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged



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« Reply #27 on: 24 July 2009, 05:19:40 »

One more thing:

- I guess one could mark the difference between elven and human interpretation of the Gods in the fact that humans don't really follow the elven interpretation that Gods are representations of the Thoughts of Avá. The humans personify the Gods entirely, the elves see them more as principles that once were walking Caelereth in corporeal form.

Actually, Avá "left" the world, leaving her thoughts, the Gods, behind, and in the beginning of the War of the Chosen, it are the Gods who leave Caelereth. What they do is that they follow Avá's example, but just as Avá left the Gods in reality when she retreated, the Gods left their divine seeds in the Children.

The elves only worship what is left of the Gods, the principles, not the "persons" themselves as such. Human religion doesn't recognize that the Gods left and thus still personalize the Gods, praying to them, hoping for more or less direct reaction, which is something an elf just wouldn't do. From this point of view the human myths of the Gods, where they are treated as humans with feelings and emotions, derive.
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« Reply #28 on: 24 July 2009, 05:34:36 »

Ah, the sword Arthur only could draw out of this rock... well thought out this stuff..

I have a slight problem here though:

Quote
Actually, Avá "left" the world, leaving her thoughts, the Gods, behind, and in the beginning of the War of the Chosen, it are the Gods who leave Caelereth. What they do is that they follow Avá's example, but just as Avá left the Gods in reality when she retreated, the Gods left their divine seeds in the Children.

The humans still believe in the gods and that they are granting wishes/reacting to prayers , that is ok - but from the developers view this is not very satisfying, for then I have to say, that the gods are not able to fulfil wishes, if hey are not longer 'here'. Saying, that they can react from a distance is not what leaving the world implies. And saying, that the belief itself is the force which allows the "wonders" to take place is not very satisfying either... then I have nothing else than Ximax, just maybe that it is raw magic, or Xeua??? I didn't plan the possibility of a direct intervention of the gods, but that they work through the magic principles/laws of this world, but , well, the absence of the gods is a difficult issue. 
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« Reply #29 on: 24 July 2009, 05:42:03 »

Regarding why they are fighting in the first place: I imagine that Coor's reason for the war may be based on the idea of "free will" but I can also envision he recruits (manipulates) others based on what influences them.  

Regarding which Gods are "evil"and which are "Good":  It can be seen that some of the Gods such as Armeros are conflicted and could be persuaded by Coor to follow his side at least for the duration of the War of the Chosen.  It would make sense that each God would have their own story as to why they chose the good side or the bad side (and I imagine some switched sides part way through).  I don't think we should discount romantic love as an influence for some of the Gods. The quote below comes from the Armeros entry as an example of thee concepts:

Quote
At one time elves and humans alike worshipped the Twelve together, but changes began to happen and differences of opinion crept in. Finally a high priestess named Kásh'áv'taylá turned the elves away from the other Gods and caused much more jealousy among them than they had ever felt before. Coór created a desire in the hearts of the Gods that the elves should be punished for this disloyalty, and convinced Armeros of the justness of this desire.

With Armeros to spur them on the other races attacked the elves, only to strengthen their resolve and convictions. It was during this time of struggle that the Goddess of Death, Queprur, fell in love with Armeros and was rejected by him for the lovely and giving Goddess of Life, Jeyriall, with whom he had already coupled and produced offspring. Queprur, scorned, sought her revenge on the mortal realm, raising up a bloodthirsty elven female named Avásh’aelía, or as the humans named her, the “Bone Queen”. The stories of that time may be read in many chroniclers’ tomes elsewhere (read more e.g. in Dalá'Valannía's story "A Hall of Broken Mirrors")
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