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Author Topic: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)  (Read 17236 times)
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Morden Peshirgolz
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« Reply #45 on: 26 July 2009, 05:50:14 »

Thanks Art. If you'll bear with one more question, what would be the dwarves' opinions/myths concerning this event? Or is that some that Bard Judith has to determine? That's partly why I was wondering who the avatar of Urtengor was.
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« Reply #46 on: 26 July 2009, 17:26:24 »

First of all: I guess at some point it needs to be elaborated in an entry more clearly that the human/elven God Urtengor is not identical with Trum'Baroll. That's more the point of view the humans have - that the dwarves just borrowed their God and made him their own. A dwarf wouldn't see it that way.

Secondly, the avataric concept of the War of the Chosen would be mainly found in elven texts. Maybe humans have another interpretation of why there are various "archmages" battling each other, which is not primarily God-related. This all to make the differences in the religious beliefs pretty clear.

Besides, not even an Urtengor avatar might be aware of being an Urtengor avatar. It still needs to be evaluated what are the benefits of actually having avatars directly related to Gods in the long run - or if it isn't necessary to deal with it so strictly, or not all the way through. An Urtengor avatar might for example utilize dwarves in his battles as he might be able to rally them behind himself due to his alignment, so that's something to consider.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #47 on: 27 July 2009, 02:28:48 »

I've changed this thread's name now to "The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)" and will make another one that will contain the entry eventually. The gathered "facts" were moved at the top of the thread now as well.

Added were now details on Raeis Boldsnout and the Tome of Time, so it is a possibility that Raeis is now an avatar. Also added were details on the Or'injerá Sword, which probably was used by Eckra, and the demonic Midnight Blade, which also was used by a Chosen. A white Chosen of the Battle of Winds seems to have been an Injerín, probably the guy who was referred to as "Dra'va'ensle".
« Last Edit: 27 July 2009, 02:50:07 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged



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Morden Peshirgolz
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« Reply #48 on: 27 July 2009, 02:31:19 »

Thanks again for the clarification. I just want to figure out how the dwarves would be involved in this part of history, since I am still interested in their ancient history.
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« Reply #49 on: 27 July 2009, 04:45:18 »

I would forsee a direct Avatar-God link as an issue, particularly for more exclusive Chosen like Menemronn who it would be hard to tie down. Perhaps its more a perception of Godly lineage?
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« Reply #50 on: 27 July 2009, 14:41:57 »

Yes, that's a good point. I guess the best way would be to let the Gods first chose their avatars, thus "Chosen". Yet, due to the concept of free will taking over, the Children develop to something else eventually, maybe implicitly, maybe explicitly turning away from their gods, making the divine powers their own.
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Deklitch Hardin
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« Reply #51 on: 27 July 2009, 17:19:00 »

Would the Gods (or at least some of them) then strike down their Children due to their children's arrogance of taking on the divine powers their own? Something like that happened in some terran myths at any case at least, I'm certain.
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« Reply #52 on: 27 July 2009, 17:24:19 »

I doubt it - because the divine powers are in the hands of the Children. The Gods don't interfere in that way in the battle they created themselves (=elven interpretation).
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« Reply #53 on: 28 July 2009, 04:11:40 »

A short update here:

- I've dug up more details on Ma'asherom, whose sorceress Cyrella was killed in the attack of Eu'reoll (see entry on the High Avá'ránn).

- And there's an explicit mentioning of Queprur's Chosen, namely a certain "Saria Starlight", a guy you find mentioned at the Old Weavers entry. More details in the Weavers entry, which I've added in his section.

- Eckra BTW is also referred to as the "Chosen of Queprur" at his picture, maybe because it's pretty much a picture of a necromancer.

- Mirhan the Just can now pretty much also be identified with the White Chosen of the Kanapan Lands, where you have a brief indirect mentioning of him in the Kanapan Men entry. Given the other options, Mirhan must be the one who is referred there.
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #54 on: 28 July 2009, 10:06:50 »

Re Urtengor / TrumBaroll: 

When the dwarves 'found out' about Urtengor - along with all the other gods the humans worship - their general attitude was, and remains to this day (with a few notable exceptions such as the Zurghurim on Ximax) faintly contemptuous and amused... rather 'oh well, what can you expect from humans?'

  Of course, their faithful devotion to a single deity would lead them to conclude that Urtengorism is a mere faux-rock copy of dwarven worship, which after all has been established for thousands of years in an unbroken chain and recorded (graven on rock, to be precise) without error or oral distortion.   Without attempting to make any value judgements in real life, it might be compared to the way Orthodox Jews feel about modern Israelis, perhaps, or fundamentalist Christians about Mormon beliefs, with varying degrees of tolerance thereto.

 Dwarven belief binds the entire culture so consistently that it is difficult for them to make any separations or philosophical distinctions.  To clarify, your typical Thergerim would, if pressed, say something like "We have the right way, the only way, the faithful way which assures us of an afterlife, and you others are:" (pick one) "condemned by God / sorely mistaken / bound for a big surprise / blurring the message"

I haven't really thought about dwarven 'evangelists' - it may be that faith is so much a part of their culture that they assume non-dwarves actually cannot be 'saved' or be 'true follower', or it may be that they simply matter-of-factly see it as so obvious that 'this is the only way' that they are more inclined to shake their head over the obtuse blindness of all the other races and cultures which deny or dilute the Anvil-Lord's existence and supremacy?   - but possibly any one  (human, elf, hobbit, orc, etc.) who of his own accord 'sees the firelight' of TrumBaroll's forge and desires to follow Him would be accepted and given access to the Book of Rocktales ...('Trumesdrumerons', I think)

Humans who think, or at least who express, the concept that TrumBaroll is a copy of Urtengor, on the other hand, will be very forcefully and quickly 'set straight' with the physical evidence of ten thousand years of sacred carvings, and possibly the sharp edge of a very large battleaxe.  Or whatever other item of persuasion the listening Thergerim has to hand....
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« Reply #55 on: 28 July 2009, 14:49:55 »

Yep, exactly. There are of course entries on the site that suggest otherwise, as is the case with a lot of mythical/historical stuff or stuff that concerns belief. Upon further development such things are often taken for granted and can lead in an entirely different direction. This is especially true as far as older entries are concerned.

So what is important is that we have those differences at least roughly, but very clearly defined, as it will take anyway quite a while until this all makes it in proper form on the site. But things like should be clear: What is the standard elven/human/dwarven creation myth? How is the basic belief outlines? What are the key figures related to this belief (prophets, titans, avatars etc.)? We'd move a huge step forward if we can nail that down.

I also think e.g. of a special marker (probably an icon) in the history tables to mark mythical stuff (maybe a race specific icon?), cause right now we cannot really separate these event from other facts. And one by-product of all the rework for the War of the Chosen should be to get the mythical timelines for the key races done.
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #56 on: 29 July 2009, 05:26:56 »

Hmmm, so I should look more closely at the Ylossian stuff Morden has so carefully put together....

While I'm very fond of writing mythologies, I'm dreadful at 'real' history for some reason!  Also not at my home computer, which has some background and unpublished information I'd need to prepare a 'mythical timeline'.  However, there might be enough onsite already to piece together a rough dwarven perspective (jokes about 'lower' or 'belt-line-of-sight' are not appreciated here) on their history - which of course is bound up inextricably with their beliefs. 


An icon would be VERY helpful. What about the already existing golden circle shape used in the Compendium to signal Religion?    Or, if you want a race-specific one, use the golden circle with an overlaid (embossed?) leaf, ax, bone, muffin, etc. for the different races  (elf, dwarf, orc, hobbit...) :)

Perhaps we could do a group project to design one main 'faith symbol' for each major religion (NOT race-specific)?

From both a developer's pov and an in-world perspective, this would be very helpful.  It would give us some cool graphics to use in Religion entries, icons for maps in the future, references for banners, backgrounds, stained glass windows, architecture, etc. for our artists, and literary references for our authors.   Just as the cross stands for Christianity, the lotus for Buddhism, the six-pointed star for Judaism and the crescent for Islam, it should be possible to extract a common symbol that worshippers hold in common. 
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« Reply #57 on: 30 July 2009, 02:49:43 »

Well, the religion icon alone might no be enough, for one because there surely also are some pre-history myths where religion is not directly involved, so that why we'd require some sort of "myth" icon perhaps. But maybe that's not really necessary and would lead to more confusion. If neutral this icon could basically mean "historically unconfirmable" or something. Hmmm...

The race would need to be there somewhere, could also be written as text, but the question is where we'd place that text and how it would look like that way. An icon is always better, though combining an icon with another one (say placing a hammer on the faith symbol) probably won't show that faith icon enough. Maybe show the icons next to each other? Hmmm...

Ermm... Probably I should have read your post in detail before starting to write, because it dawns on me: So your conclusion actually sounds best, Judy: Single, relatively simple icons for key religions sounds like the best idea indeed, I agree with that. :D There can be races with the same religion, so it probably shouldn't be race specific. Would serce the purpose well.

Plus, say, if we reserve a spot for icons on the history tables (an own column?) - then we could use that spot for other icons as well. Like: A crown for a crowning, or crossed swords for a battle. You could then scroll down a history table and have a graphical key marks that help you to orientate yourself. - What do you think?

P.S.: The hobbit muffin... rofl
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #58 on: 30 July 2009, 05:12:41 »

Splendid idea! I love icons - helps tremendously with scanning a text. I always scribe  markers and shorthand symbols along the margins whenever I study something ;) Definitely a visual learner/memorizer here :)
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« Reply #59 on: 30 July 2009, 06:21:21 »

Ditto!  Glad you two like the idea... now to brainstorm some possible concept pictures for the various 'main' religions....

(Throws a hobbit muffin at Art, a fresh Myrddin Falcon quill at Coren, and runs off back to her study)
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