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Author Topic: Timeline of the Early Myths  (Read 15865 times)
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #15 on: 28 July 2009, 15:36:32 »

Ok
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« Reply #16 on: 29 July 2009, 04:41:27 »

Added/changed quite a bit in another small, yet important part:

Quote
ca. 15000 - The Creation of the Elements (Aér'ai'chanía)
Out of the Thoughts (Aeolía) of Avá the four Elements (Aér'ai'chanía) arose: Wind (closest to the Aeolía) and Earth, and the Elements that stoodin between them, Fire (Earth trying to become Wind) and Water (Wind trying to become Earth).

ca. 15000 - The Auratic Winds and the Darkwinds
The elements formed connections among each other, the Xeuá (the "In-Between", the Spirit, the Aura) and the Aeolía that connected the elements were called the Auratic Winds and their movement was Ahm (speaking, active). But there were forces already within the Aeolía, which countered the Auratic Winds, the Darkwinds, and their movement was called Soór (passive, responding). While the Auratic Winds sought harmony and linked the elements together, the Darkwinds slowed them down and made their work cease.

ca. 15000 - The Creation of the Gods (Aviaría)
The Elements differed from the Thoughts (Aeolía) of the One, developing as something of their own that was other and alien to the Aeolía. Yet the Aeoliá worked against the chaos that spread, in order to reflect the picture of Avá from which they had sprung themselves. For each element finally three Aviaría arose, out of the Auratic Winds that had created them, each one representing a high spirit that stood as a link between the element and the other elements. Thus the Twelve Aeolía were created, which the humans would later on refer to as "Gods".

This establishes  the Darkwinds and the Auratic Winds prior to the Gods, and hints at the fact that the Auratic Winds work inside the "Caelerethian atmospheric orb" (atmopshere = breath = existence)  and the Darkwinds outside, "holding" the disk. They don't have specific orientations/tasks like the Gods, and later on will be brought into context with virtues and malices - yet this is only interpretation.

Another thing that has to be done - which is pretty obvious I guess given the direction we're defining here - is that the Titans (Children of two Gods) will be removed from elven mythology altogether. They will become part of human mythology instead. Their chapter in the Cárpa'dosía will be devoted to the Auratic Winds and the Darkwinds instead.
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #17 on: 30 July 2009, 05:22:13 »

A few points:

- "For each element finally three Aviaría arose, out of the Auratic Winds that had created them": the sentence structure is a bit ambiguous and makes it sound as if the elements rather than the gods rose out of the Auratic Winds. Maybe rephrase as: "For each element finally three Aviaria arose out of the Auratic Winds" or "Out of the Auratic Winds three Aviaria arose for each element"

- "Auratic Winds work inside the "Caelerethian atmospheric orb" (atmopshere = breath = existence)  and the Darkwinds outside, "holding" the disk" - can we make this more explicit in the text? It's a great concept so it would be useful to point it out more prominently, otherwise people might miss it (I did ;) )

- Titans - yep, that makes sense. Having gods produce offspring is a bit contradictory for a culture that doesn't personify its gods and treats them as general cosmological-ethical principles. Nice catch there!

:)
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"Yes, what does that mean?"
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"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
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« Reply #18 on: 30 July 2009, 05:44:43 »

Ok, changed the wording of the Auratic Winds thingy. - There will be more details of course eventually at various passage once this goes up on the site, so it's all just still the rough outline. Plus what you read here also contradicts some things on the site. Before I invest time in further details, the timeline and the basic "events" need to be done, so that's on what I'm focusing right now.
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« Reply #19 on: 30 July 2009, 05:57:24 »

Sure, not a problem! :) I know you want to get the gist there first, an outline to which details can be grafted later on- but I am not an expert on the "big picture" when it comes to Sarvonia, so I can only commenting on the small things, like the prose or things that would not be obvious to a newbie. I'm learning about all this as I go along ;)

I wanted to let you know so that my posts don't come across as nitpicking or trying to find faults in something before the author has had a chance to pull things together, which is always annoying. :)
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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

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"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #20 on: 30 July 2009, 05:59:51 »

Quote
This establishes  the Darkwinds and the Auratic Winds prior to the Gods, and hints at the fact that the Auratic Winds work inside the "Caelerethian atmospheric orb" (atmopshere = breath = existence)  and the Darkwinds outside, "holding" the disk. They don't have specific orientations/tasks like the Gods, and later on will be brought into context with virtues and malices - yet this is only interpretation.

Outside that transition area where the atmosphere borders on the non-atmosphere? In the void/Void?
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« Reply #21 on: 31 July 2009, 04:45:59 »

Do we need a "transition area"? Couldn't the darkwinds just be "outside" of the atmosphere, thus constituting atmosphere as such?
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« Reply #22 on: 03 August 2009, 19:36:42 »

Hmmm, *thinking*

then the darkwinds would constitute what is called the *Void*, that transition area which is responsible for so many effects like described here and many others not yet pinned down like dawn and a coloured sky where normally none would be, or an occultation of the sun (without celestial body, just a "thickening" of the air).

I'll personally always thought, that the air thins out as on earth as well, and that area from a given, not defined 'thinness' of the air till where is more or less no air found is where the void is thought, developingwise. The darkwinds could blow there.

But of course the air could end abruptly as well and the darkwinds circulate in a kind of shell around the sphere of air. They could thin out into the void as well though, so that the shell would have a defined inner border, but no outer.

As you like it, was just curious.
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« Reply #23 on: 04 August 2009, 03:51:49 »

Well, you have to remember that e.g. the sun is located quite a bit away from the disk, which means that the sun wouldn't be in a transition space, but is pretty much in Darkwinds territory. The Darkwinds also tore pieces from the sun according to some myths. So I wouldn't restrict the Darkwinds to a certain area, but just make them part of the Void, and their Darkness dyes the Void with the dark colour. I'd say the Void of course reaches into the disk and there's a sort of soft transition of the Disk into the Void, so that you actually walk "into the Dream" if you walk into the Void, e.g. in Aeruillin. The Void however is a dangerous place, as the physical world ends there and the Darkwinds dominate that space.
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« Reply #24 on: 04 August 2009, 05:12:36 »

Ok, next step: I'm working now slowly through the Fá'áv'cál'âr myths and add bit by bit there. This whole thing probably takes me some years to complete... lol There are lots of inconsistencies and holes right now, and former events I have to revisit and change after I've already put them down here. So this surely isn't easy to do.

The key thing I'd like to stress at the Fá'áv'cál'âr myth is the following: Avá leaves the world after Coór's manifestation and the Gods, as High Spirits, are worshipped by the elves who form the realm of Fá'áv'cál'âr. The Empress Kásh'áv'taylá (names will most likely change) then turns the people away from the Gods that have created them and the worshipping is directed towards Avá instead. The Gods are more and more forgotten. Coór's seed grows. Basically he can influence the Children themselves, as they are "real" and closer to him that the Gods themselves. The Gods then descend as Children among Children on Caelereth, unnoticed, to learn how the Children could forsake their creators. And as they've become Children among Children, Coór's influence in them grows, and that's why they act like - pun intended - "Children". Armeros then rallies orcs around him and the first clashes begin.

So actually the Gods are tainted because they descended on Caelereth, and when they leave again, they will take these emotions and faults with them (this leads to various "human myths"). The elven worship on the other hand remains estranged somewhat from the Gods as such and tends more towards that pantheism idea of Avá with the Gods as representing Thoughts of Avá's general ideas as I tried to sketch it above. That's at least a rough outline in a nutshell I envision.
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« Reply #25 on: 04 August 2009, 05:21:24 »

Yes, having that atmospheric thinning/transition area makes sense - otherwise climbing mountains would be a wholly different story ;)
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"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #26 on: 04 August 2009, 05:24:48 »

Re your last post: I like this concept! A great foundation that explains why both the humans and elves ended up with their particular attitudes towards religion
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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #27 on: 04 August 2009, 05:34:22 »

Ah, so that's how dragons originated! Wonderful! - also ties in subtly with the Vardynn Soul Robbery ;)
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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #28 on: 04 August 2009, 05:52:18 »

Arti, can you make this part more explicit in the text? "Basically he can influence the Children themselves, as they are "real" and closer to him that the Gods themselves. The Gods then descend as Children among Children on Caelereth, unnoticed, to learn how the Children could forsake their creators. And as they've become Children among Children, Coór's influence in them grows, and that's why they act like - pun intended - "Children". Armeros then rallies orcs around him and the first clashes begin"

Maybe also this part: "So actually the Gods are tainted because they descended on Caelereth, and when they leave again, they will take these emotions and faults with them (this leads to various "human myths"). The elven worship on the other hand remains estranged somewhat from the Gods as such and tends more towards that pantheism idea of Avá with the Gods as representing Thoughts"
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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #29 on: 04 August 2009, 18:29:40 »

Hmmm... So to what does your post refer then, Coren? This one:

Quote
Re your last post: I like this concept! A great foundation that explains why both the humans and elves ended up with their particular attitudes towards religion

As you practically post my whole post there in your question of things you want to have clarified...  veryconfused I can't think of a better way to explain it more clearly actually as this, as this is the most raw version. Got any particular question? Then I could try to specify.

Or do you mean the history text itself? That's only a rough placeholder so far.
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