Human Early Myths: The Gods, Creation and everything else

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[Artimidor Federkiel]

I've opened this thread in order to discuss the human version of the early myths, because what we need is something that has some basic identical/similar events to the elven versio. Yet these events must also be different, for one in interpretation, and secondly there might be some factual contradictions as well (as they are myths, not history, which we shouldn't mix up).

The most important thing is to unearth what the Gods are for the humans and how they explain the creation. I'd like to take an entirely different approach than in the elven myth.

So let's summarize the elven myth:

- Avá dreams, and out of that "passive" act the Elements, the Gods as Guides develop
- Coór is revealed as her shadow self
- Elven empire of Fá'áv'cál'âr is formed, humans live with the elves in bliss
- The elves turn away from the Gods and worship Avá instead
- The Gods then descend on Caelereth, and try to understand the children
- The Gods become tainted with the evil of Coór and destroy Fá'áv'cál'âr
- The Gods withdraw again, noticing that their place is not on Caelereth
- In elven myth they will make sure however that the divine spirit still lives in the mortals by defining avatars, who can decide the fate of the world if their powers are properly used. However, they leave it to the children to discover this and to use these abilities. The avatars don't know that they are avatars. The avataric powers live on throughout the ages.

Now to the human version:

Let's forget about creation and focus on the Gods for now. Basically my idea is that the explanation of the Gods is reversed in their myth compared to the elves and it boils down to this: Gods are ascended beings. - Let's explain:

- The human version of the destruction of Fá'áv'cál'âr would be that the - in the human interpretation - the elves sought to find bliss not on Caelereth, but that they should return to the heavens, so they were more and more negating the existing world. At least this was what the "Empress" back then tried to push through.
- To counter that Empress, people had to rise up, rally armies, and eliminate the elven Empress. There were outstanding people with magical abilities, who eventually took care of the beheading of the Empress etc. (which reportedly was Queprur).
- So in elven myth the Gods descended, while in human myth they developed. This reflects the hubris of the humans pretty well, that their myth suggests that they can become Gods.
- Finally these humans ascended into the heavens if you so want themselves, to guide the humans. Coór would be one of them.

That's the basic idea. Doesn't explain creation (how and who etc.), as there were no Gods there back then to actually create the world in this version. But we'd have something very different from elven belief, which is where we need to head.

Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Complaints?

[Deklitch Hardin]

Would all the humans regardless of where they are on Caelereth would ultimately believe that they come from here? Including those on the other continents? Or would/could/do they have alternative origin myths?

[Artimidor Federkiel]

No, this is basically the Sarvonian version (of most Southern Sarvonian tribes) - other continents could have derived forms of such a myth, but not necessarily.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

These gods - according to Icemen mythology- are the breed of Afrasnyr the hermaphrodite chaos god, who - being alone for eternity - decided to fight with his own self and, during the struggle, he split himself to the 15 gods living inside them.

The Icemen seem to have a completely different pantheon, etc.  That said, I'd like to see if there are areas we can make some commonalities, so that scholars can draw comparisons and speculate about common ancestory.  Whether or not these speculations are justified is another matter.

As well, this reversal of the elven belief, where humans ascended again lends credence to the "Witches" and their hoppe to "create" a new god.

[Miraran Tehuriden]

The Humans of Nybelmar for instance have completely different pantheons and creation myths, although many of those (read; the ones i have a hand in) bear a remarkable likeness to the elven version of the lot.

Tsk, go figure. Must be some kind of paralel evolution, right?

[Artimidor Federkiel]

I guess what is important to keep in mind is that we're working here on a big picture right now. We're not working on specific religions of tribes, which also means that this main concept shouldn't try to take tribal stuff into account and bend it in this direction. We're doing groundwork for a basic human belief, which is mainly predominant in Southern Sarvonia. How exactly other tribes have developed their own mythology/belief is an entirely different question. They might have a common base somewhere with these main concepts or have everything entirely different, and connections could be explained later on if necessary and wanted. But the focus needs to be on the big picture as a stand alone thing.

[Azhira Styralias]

 

At that time, the humans would essentially be godless and without any form of worship. However, the destruction of Fá'áv'cál'âr brought about the ascension of powerful, magical humans who helped defeat the Empress. Out of those super people, the Gods were born and ascended into the heavens.

So essentially...with such a reversal, there is no way humans and elves could ever worship side by side as their beliefs in the gods themselves are totally different. How can a human cleric of Nehtor stand in agreement with an elven cleric of Nehtor?

Perhaps change the motives of the gods instead. Rather, have the humans believe the gods descended onto Fá'áv'cál'âr for different reasons. Maybe the humans believe the gods were angry and violent to begin with and came down to punish the mortals for their transgressions. Essentially, the human version is that the gods were fickle and temperamental and looking for an excuse to punish mankind. Whereas the elven version has the gods as basically good hearted looking to understand but were corrupted by Coor.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

At that time, the humans would essentially be godless and without any form of worship.

That is very unlikely for early humans and we should try to avoid that.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

@Azhira: Elves and humans might have their own ideas how Nehtor originated, but I think their role would still be pretty much the same. And as such, as far as the basic substance of belief is concerned, elven and human clerics would still be very similar. There might be minor or major differences in this and that aspect, but the Gods still have the same purpose - to protect the races, and even the humans might say that this includes the elves.

Simply changing the motivations for descending for the Gods would make the myths still very similar, and misses the key point of the creation of the Gods from within the humans, which in essence is the answer to Talia's statement.

@Talia: For one, we're talking about the mythical grounding of our Gods, we're trying to establish here why humans believe at all. So why is it unlikely for early humans to have no Gods or be without worship at the beginning of time? I'm not sure if all the Neanderthals worshipped something, a God or any kind of item/talisman etc. I'm not a theologian, but I assume the major religions that focussed worship on something very specific arose way later, when cultures were already clearly established.

Note, that this take on how human belief originated is a mythical interpretation. And especially because of that I don't think that belief needs to be a given, because that's where the idea is coming from - that there is chaos and difference all over the place in the beginning and directions are lacking. No prophet or saviour has shown up as of yet (even the elves don't see Avá manifest on Caelereth) and things are falling further apart, tribes split, difference rules. The elven belief dominating in Fá'áv'cál'âr is not bought by the humans, and to the elves this appears as if the humans were corrupted by Coór. That's why the longing for (focussed) belief is so strong, because the humans in their rational thinking fail to see it, and that's why the Gods emerge from the humans themselves in their myth.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Art, I would need to dig in I don't know where to proof it, but my 'knowledge' from many years of dealing with theological things as well as a bit anthropology is, that as soon humans became sentient, they worshiped "something", knew something they venerated, feared, tried to pacify, whatever. It must not have been a positive 'presence' which was acknowledge to exist, more protection from something they feared.

Of course I don't know it, would have to research, but I don't doubt , that the Neanderthal people worshiped something, and at the time where we begin with telling stories/myths about our sentient races, they were  already a bit farther on their way in live than the Neanderthal people, I assume (No?)

I think I read even somewhere, that early humanity is defined as reaching out of themselves to another presence. So, they don't have to know the present gods, but anything, anybody, ancestors, spirits, the sun, the fire, dragons, the day, the night , lightning..

Atheism is something fairly new, even if people did not worship gods, they did not doubt their existence.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Well, yeah, of course there's also belief/worship before the major religions arose. Many referred to the time before the major religions arose as the "magical age", not because we've magic in the fantasy meaning here, but because life could be seen to be working in a context that didn't need to be questioned. So belief I think mostly was more based on nature and the cycle of life and death, but I don't know when a more elaborate belief in something more "abstract" like a "God" really materialized. Maybe the Neanderthals were way ahead of us if they interpreted nature as God's true face, unlike 21st century people who have to take courses or become scientologists in order to find out what that weird "God" thing is at all.

Anyway, just wanted to say: What we need here in the Santharian context is a major religion that arises at some point, like Christianity or Islam here on Earth, and I try to give reasons how that happened and why - and at the same time keep tit in a way consistent with elven stuff, so that both major religions can exist together, yet everyone claims to have their own truth.

[Azhira Styralias]

After working on the Empress Kash entry, I am brought back to this discussion to perhaps try to finalize some things.

On Human worship:

I agree with Talia in that the Fá'áv'cál'âr humans had a kind of primitive belief system before the gods ascended. While the elves believe the gods descended, the humans believe the gods were sparked at Fá'áv'cál'âr and gained a kind of divine power at that turning point in history. The Empress Kash was powerful and held the belief that she was a child of Ava. Even perhaps close to godhood herself? The unrest she caused had to be dealt with and it happened according to two different beliefs:

Elves - The gods descended and destroyed Fá'áv'cál'âr and killed the Empress. The elves believe they were at fault ultimately for this destruction.

Humans - Powerful humans stood up and destroyed the Empress and Fá'áv'cál'âr. The Humans believe this had to occur to punish or curtail the elves' power (the Empress in particular).

On Religious Creation:

Now, what happens next? In Fá'áv'cál'âr, let's say that the humans had a primitive belief system. I would like to use the Kaaer as an example. If the humans had no "gods" at that time, then perhaps they revered nature or ancestor spirits. Something tangible and could be seen, felt and heard. I would say ancestor worship would fit best, given that humans believe in other powerful and influential humans.

But...after Fá'áv'cál'âr, the ancestor/hero worship developed into something more. Those humans who killed the Empress and destroyed Fá'áv'cál'âr are now deserving of worship and become the gods. Because of their "heroic" and "tragic" actions, they ascend to godhood.

So now, the birth of deity worship begins. A prophet rises up and spreads the teachings of the Twelvern faith. The elves scatter and also hold to a similar teaching - the Avanian faith. Both elements begin at Fá'áv'cál'âr, with different origins, but roughly the same gods.

If humans and elves co-exist, they share elements of this faith and find similarities. Traditions form, both similar and different, between the races. But essentially over time, the teachings learn to co-exist, but the dogma is perhaps interpreted differently between a human and elf cleric. Queprur is goddess of death to humans (cold, uncaring, ruthless, necromancy?). To elves, she is earthen, judgmental, efficient and also rules over death, but in a more practical way, not as someone "evil".

In Short...:

The Human Twelvern began as ancestor worship, and developed into gods when their heroes and mighty human strength sparked into something divine. Because, to a human, who craves power, becoming a god is an ultimate "reward" or "achievement". The beginning was slow as their gods were probably powerful spirits. Over time, myths and legends of these spirits grew and they became true deities.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Yes, I think that all sounds rather logical, and I see it pretty much that way as well, Azhira. Of course, given the fact that we have twelve very different gods, not all of them can be said to have derived from heroes who fought great battles or something, so their "paths to glory" might vary considerable (e.g. being people who were great hunters, healers, legendary smiths, and what not). So certain people might have emerged from the masses by being somewhat special for the humans, while this was a given for the elves - that these people were supposed to be leaders, that this is the godly intervention to help that the living find their way. - The elven position towards belief developed from a more passive one, for the humans it was an active one. Though that as well has changed somewhat for the humans over the centuries, humans wouldn't believe nowadays that they can become gods I assume (though that's always a nice plot for a contemporary "madman" with a mythical reference... ).

Anway, ancestor worship fits right in for the humans I think. The spirit of a special person is believed to live on, and if others show that they are special in that respect as well, they can be considered "blessed" by these spirits/Gods. Note that the Gods are seen as having an active role by blessing someone, while an elf would say that a person who is "special" has found the principle in his/her heart that a certain God embodied to perfection.

Saints also have a place in all that as actively practicing "special" people - to say it in a rough way. So yeah, I guess that's a good approach.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Though that as well has changed somewhat for the humans over the centuries, humans wouldn't believe nowadays that they can become gods I assume (though that's always a nice plot for a contemporary "madman" with a mythical reference... ).

One word.... Delthenoyre Witches... er... two words

[Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr]

Hey everyone, I'm aware that I know practically nothing about the origins of human belief (which is worrying as I did the Grotharian Temples entry) since it's still not clarified on-site and I haven't been involved over here, but I think that maybe the humans believes that all spirits live on after death, and the spirits of the greatest people become "Gods", although it's a rather fine distinction, because some spirits will be greater than others but not at "God" level, it you see what I mean. Also, it's a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. If a great person becomes fully deified after death, his deeds in life will be exaggerated and so he will be more firmly a deity &c. So just as I doubt that the ordinary Greek thought he could become Heracles, most people have no hope of becoming a Gods. But because we are studying this from a third-party perspective, we can say that a) The number and name of human "Gods" was very likely influenced by the elvish beliefs and that b) The sole requirement for "Godhood" would be that people remembered and revered you. Thus you would likely only become a "God" a few centuries down the line, when people have forgotten who you were and the stories about you have grown greater - and that only if peoople still remembered you with respect. For example, Kor'och was a man but he became a God. His prowess was exaggerated and eventually, when he has reached the Age of Myths, he is deified by the current Remusians. All they know of him is legend, allegory and fantasy. This, though much longer ago, could be how people became the southern Gods, and the people who weren't quite Godly enough became venerated ancestor spirits, but through the mists of time they were forgotten as individuals and onlly more recent ones are remembered. So the "Gods" could hae originally been, say, the "Leaders" of this pantheon of ancestor spirits, but then the rest were forgotten and only the "Gods" remained. Never underestimate how much a religion can be corrupted with time. There would seem to be a sort of cut-off point, above which the legends are just exaggerated with time but below which they fade slowly with time. The people who passed this line became Gods, the people who failed faded away. Also, the timescale on these things is completely different. People may not belive they can become Gods, but how can we tell? It takes centuries, also in the "modern" Santharian society I guess that people interact more, and so the "stagnant time" that is needed, which there would have been in a small village with the only method of getting around your feet, is not there any more. Also, by now people have probably lost these origins, and maybe only a few old fragments tell of a time when Arvins or Grothar were men - and even these would have been corrupted, in an oral society, to "Gods in human form".

I'll shut up before I outstay my welcome.

Athviaro the Ranting

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[Artimidor Federkiel]

Last 10 Shouts: Artimidor Federkiel Today at 17:14:39 If it works, sure! Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin Today at 16:47:05  Art, is this your little way of forcing me to do an entry? Irid alMenie Today at 14:01:26 I see the board has been deactivated. Lets hope for a quick solution! Artimidor Federkiel 16 May 2013, 22:20:50 Files have been replaced again, but the question remains how long this will last. SMF support will have a look at the security problem. Artimidor Federkiel 16 May 2013, 17:26:47 It has been hacked. The third time in 3 days. I need to replace the changed files again (won't happen before evening) - and then see what the SMF support recommends as a strategy. Irid alMenie 16 May 2013, 10:06:36 Arti, could you maybe take a look at the RPG board? I got a message from my anti-virus program and now I can't access the column on the right with the list of current threads and the shoutbox. Thankies Artimidor Federkiel 04 May 2013, 13:50:24 Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 03 May 2013, 19:31:50 got it! The menu to the left is so convenient, that I nearly forgot the old souce... Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 03 May 2013, 19:23:01 Artimidooor.. could you please add the Northern Sarvonian Tribe's map to the map menu? As you know, my mouse over does not work I could't find it right now, though I know it does exist somewhere. Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 30 April 2013, 23:32:56 Huhu, huhu, huhu, ..that was my owl..

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[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

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