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Azhira Styralias
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« on: 12 September 2009, 04:10:58 »

I'd like to design a new template for creating mythical people, patrons and guardians in Caelereth. Before I attempt to create the patron of magic, I would like to have a template in place first. I'll begin with using various elements from the designing people and deities templates and try to narrow one down. Discussions welcomed!

Original thread on patron of magic

Names
The primary name , the AKA's and epithets.

Overview (from People template, obviously, this information may all be myth or stories)
Give a general overview on the patron on top. When you look at this overview you should see at once

- who this patron is/was
- what he/she did
- where this all happened
- and why there is a Compendium entry for this patron

Appearance
How is the patron concepted? How is he/she/it depicted in paintings, murals, sculptures, or other art forms? (Is he depicted at all?) Are there typical aspects that are always the same? Are there conflicting or contradicting depictions in different areas or among different tribes?

Mythology or Biography
Are there any (mythical) books in which the patron is described? Is a certain day, month, element or something else dedicated to him? Are there kin deities, godly foes or friends?

Becoming a Patron/Guardian/Revered
How did this person become a patron? What events led to this status? What deeds and miracles were performed that gave this person a cult following?

Lore
What symbols or events represents this patron? Are there special stories/legends related to this patron? What did/does he or she do for the cosmos? How is he/she still active in the world? Any interaction with single person/tribes or the other races?

Temples/Rituals/Celebrations (optional)
Any shrines, statues, herms, cairns, altars, springs, or natural places associated with this patron and set apart as sacred to him or her? Are there any rituals and celebrations honored in the patron's name?

Importance
Area of responsibility or influence. Who specifically respects/worships him/her? How is the patron’s attention attracted? How is he/she worshiped or given gifts? How does the patron fit into the everyday life of the average person? Does it differ among the races, tribes or genders?
« Last Edit: 07 December 2009, 17:03:29 by Takór Salenár » Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #1 on: 12 September 2009, 08:56:22 »

Nicely done, and timely at that.  Aura for you...

Could you add in:

Are there any elements/reagents/aspects of nature that are significant to the patron?  Certain sounds/smells/tastes etc. associated with him or her?   (For example, the chiming of small bells signifying an appearance of Dalireen, or the colour turquoise representing Baveras, the roasting of meat presided over by Trum-Barol, and so on)   



I find examples always help stir people's imagination, so you could add a few lines to bolster the entry if you like - eg under Appearance:  "How is the patron concepted?  (In bodily form, perhaps as an elven female, a warrior, a deer, a winged tiger?   Does it manifest as a spirit?  Can it be felt and otherwise sensed?  Can it interact with the world of nature?)

Also - not sure where you might add this:  "Is there a symbol or icon which represents the patron - something which can be used on a banner, worn as a necklace, sketched in the dirt?"   Since I'm working on designing just such icons for the major deities, it might be nice to see the possibility for the minor deities and mythological figures (rather like the hammer associated with Thor, or the lion skin of Hercules...)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #2 on: 13 September 2009, 08:02:52 »

I have a look tomorrow, Azhira, it is too late now.
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« Reply #3 on: 29 September 2009, 15:44:53 »

Lately I'm doing all in a hurry, hopefully I didn't tell crap.

Edit below, after I skimmed through the other thread



Names
The primary name , the AKA's and epithets.

Overview (from People template, obviously, this information may all be myth or stories)
Give a general overview on the person on top. When you look at this overview you should see at once

- who this person is/was
- what he/she did
- where this all happened
- and why there is a Compendium entry for this person
 I would the last replace with
- why she/he finally became a patron (that‘s different from what she did!)
- Is she/he more locally venerated or all over Santharia? Accepted by all groups of inhabitants of the area?
- What is her/his level of ‚holiness‘? (see below)


Appearance (from Deities template)
How is the patron concepted? How is he/she/it depicted in paintings, murals, sculptures, or other art forms? (Is he depicted at all?) Are there typical aspects that are always the same? Are there conflicting or contradicting depictions in different areas or among different tribes?

Mythology or Biography (from Deities template)

What do we know of the life of the patron? What is ‚known for sure‘, what is myth, invented by followers? --> I wouldn't do them too mythical, but let a real person show through

Are there any (mythical) books in which the patron is described? Is a certain day, month, element or something else dedicated to him? Are there kin deities, godly foes or friends? (This is the older stuff)

Importance (from Deities template)
Area of responsibility or influence. Who specifically respects/worships him/her? How is the patron’s attention attracted? How is he/she worshiped or given gifts? How does the patron fit into the everyday life of the average person? Does it differ among the races, tribes or genders?

Temples (optional) (from Deities template) --> wouldn‘t call those places temples, think we should keep that name to gods, let us invent a new word for those places of veneration. (Sainteries??)

Are there any?  Where are they located? How are they built? Any special appearance or materials used? Architectural details. Priests, priestesses, monks, sages, hermits, or other special devotees (assassins, mendicants, seekers, etc.) of this patron? Any shrines, statues, herms, cairns, altars, springs, or natural places associated with this patron and set apart as sacred to him or her?

I think there should be no priests for patrons, at least let‘s call that persons differently. Should there be services as for deities? Or should that be more a personal matter?

Let us work out the concept a bit different to what we have in Europe/elsewhere. Here we have churches who are named after a saint, a statue is in that church, people pray to him. But generally it is the church/temple for god/the deity. Why not separate that here in Santharia and let them have different buildings. Persons who look over that building and gather people to venerate this patron could be a lower class of clerics. With a new name (servitor? Short for patron‘s server?)


What I would like to copy directly and even expand on is the different stages , how to become a patron.

Out of my mind, I hope it isn‘t wrong: In the catholic church we have too phases. First the person in question is ‚blessed‘ (hope that is correct, ‚selig‘ in German, so we have a „Seligsprechung“)--> beatification. Such a saint is allowed to be venerated locally.

The next step is the sanctification, the saint is (allowed to be) venerated throughout the church, though of course still the local people will do it most. But then a church is build, or if the building or a place of ‚sight‘ exists, people from further away will come, especially if miracles are recorded.

And that leads us to the question - what made the patron to a patron in the first place? Just his good deeds in his lifetime? Or miracles afterwards? I think the last is somehow necessary, for people with ‚good deeds‘ and a good reputation are many, especially when their bad sides are forgotten after centuries.

I think this should be an extra point.

Actually, I would love to have three steps of 'glorification', build on how it is done in the catholic church, but even a bit more elaborate, what do you think?

Needs still some more work, Azhira ;)


Edit:

After having skimmed over the other lengthy thread:

What you need to avoid is the idea, that those patrons are interceding (??) between gods and humans etc, but they should be lesser deities, just not so named. So, probably not too many exact dates from the life, more  tales, but not too mythical either. But that could vary between the patrons. Deci may well have a proper date, others not.

I'm not sure now, if that "Making of a patron" I described above makes sense, but how got the patrons to become patrons? Do we have new and recent ones as well?

To your orcen mage: I think it is a great idea, but she wold be probelmatic as well. I think we say, that elves don't need patrons, but humans do. Would they really accept/venerate an orcen patron? Or not prefer to have a human?  Maybe make her a half-breed,half human , half orc, so she had to deal with noth races already. Maybe to go in between. So each race could pick up and identify with her, at least more easily.






« Last Edit: 29 September 2009, 16:12:13 by Talia Sturmwind » Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #4 on: 30 September 2009, 00:32:53 »

Quote
I would the last replace with
- why she/he finally became a patron (that‘s different from what she did!)
- Is she/he more locally venerated or all over Santharia? Accepted by all groups of inhabitants of the area?
- What is her/his level of ‚holiness‘? (see below)

I agree with this. How the patron/saint was elevated to such esteem is important in the entry. Also, it would be obvious to include the areas where the saint is venerated - local or region. For example, the magic patron would be a local one around Ximax and Thalambath probably where magic is prevalent. And, I don't necessarily think a patron need be "holy". They can be venerated for their wisdom, strength, prowess in battle or just a good (or evil) person. The connection to a religious "holiness" doesn't always have to be there.

Quote
What do we know of the life of the patron? What is ‚known for sure‘, what is myth, invented by followers? --> I wouldn't do them too mythical, but let a real person show through

Agreed here. A fine line between myth and fact, depending on how long ago the patron lived. A patron living thousands of years ago would be more mythical than one who lived 200 years ago.

Quote
Temples (optional) (from Deities template) --> wouldn‘t call those places temples, think we should keep that name to gods, let us invent a new word for those places of veneration. (Sainteries??)

I think if a patron is connected to a religious order, then the patron can be honored in the same temple as the deity. For example, a certain cleric of Baveras who was thought to heal the afflictions of 5000 people in a single day would be venerated in a Baveran temple as a perfect example of a servant. Maybe this certain patron could take a small "portfolio" of illnesses.

I agree that not all patrons have their own temple. Most would instead have a shrine or altar in certain places. Some are venerated in personal ways with small carved statues or beads. Some are called upon in nature such as forests and groves and lakes. The magic patron would be venerated in spell casting and admired for their power and intelligence. In this case, the magic patron would have her own shrine in the Red Tower of Ximax.

Quote
I think there should be no priests for patrons, at least let‘s call that persons differently. Should there be services as for deities? Or should that be more a personal matter?

Agreed, no priests should represent the patron either. It should be a personal worship/veneration. Services can be done, depending on the local belief and number of admirers. Cults can be created around a patron, to the dismay and anger of the local temples. Most certainly, a cult revolving around the magic patron (of fire) would not be welcomed with worshipers of Foiros.

Quote
Actually, I would love to have three steps of 'glorification', build on how it is done in the catholic church, but even a bit more elaborate, what do you think?

I don't think every patron has to have a religious connection or be glorified as a connection to a deity. The magic patron is venerated for her power and strength, and is not under a sun deity, even though she was a fire mage. BUT some cults may want to make this connection anyway.

Quote
To your orcen mage: I think it is a great idea, but she wold be probelmatic as well. I think we say, that elves don't need patrons, but humans do. Would they really accept/venerate an orcen patron? Or not prefer to have a human?  Maybe make her a half-breed,half human , half orc, so she had to deal with noth races already. Maybe to go in between. So each race could pick up and identify with her, at least more easily.

A half-orcen mage would work! (it always goes back to the half-orcs with me, doesn't it?  ;)) as a way to represent both the Volkek-Oshra and the humans. I like that!

I think what is needed is a first draft of the magic patron to see how it looks. Then, other patron entries can use that as a reference. The best way is to tweak an entry in progress.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #5 on: 25 November 2009, 05:52:42 »

I would like to finalize this template to that it may be applied to future entries such as Kor'och. Any objections or additions, Talia? If not, I'll blarrow.  thumbup
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« Reply #6 on: 25 November 2009, 16:30:47 »

Have you gone over it again, worked in all the ideas, proposals etc already? There is at least one time 'god' mentioned. Maybe consider, if really all fits, what you have taken from the people's or god's templates.
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« Reply #7 on: 25 November 2009, 22:45:44 »

I used this template for Anilya and I think it worked well. I removed words like god and person and replaced with patron. All the sections work and I think I have made all necessary requirements.

I'll add it with the other templates.

This is not an entry, just a template to add to the others for this board only.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #8 on: 26 November 2009, 02:04:40 »

The more you flesh it out, the better it is, more help for others who would write it. Especially the myth/biography is a bit meager.

I liked the idea of Judy about the 'symbol' or other things  (like the bells she mentioned for Dalireen) . Did you propose something like this?

Better let me put that in to not disturb that /list thing again. I'll do it when I'm back. you can use it for Alt#s patron nevertheless.
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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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« Reply #9 on: 26 November 2009, 04:50:01 »

Azhira, could you please create an entry template for the cult as well? I'll upload it then next week. I don't know, why only the priest template is working, has to look into the matter next week and add the missing ones as well.
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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #10 on: 28 November 2009, 01:13:54 »

Only the templates in the /talia directory are not working. The priests template is in the main template directory. It seems you have a folder in the stuff.santharia.com area that isn't working.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #11 on: 30 November 2009, 19:28:40 »

I'll look into that.



I'll changed your heading to patron template, for it does not fit for a guardian (which could well be something different, I'll have some ideas), nor a mythical person in general.
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« Reply #12 on: 30 November 2009, 20:57:54 »

Azhira, could you please prepare (and upload on the stuff server under  /templates/template_cults.txt ) the cult template like I've done the other ones? :)

I will the edit the main thread and link to it. Please don't change anything in this monsterthread as long as I am here, otherwise my local copy is not up to date and that might get confusing ;) I deeply regret not to have made several posts.

I'll do the rest sometimes.

Edit, I forgot, that it is already there :)
« Last Edit: 30 November 2009, 21:02:44 by Takór Salenár » Logged
Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #13 on: 30 November 2009, 22:39:24 »

Quote
Azhira, could you please prepare (and upload on the stuff server under  /templates/template_cults.txt ) the cult template like I've done the other ones?

I've never done this. I'll get Arti to help or give me access.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #14 on: 30 November 2009, 22:52:51 »

See other thread, you could just have said, that you never did it before, or post it here.
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