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Author Topic: The Dunraich of Thalambath (updated to Talia's requests)  (Read 14720 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #15 on: 05 November 2009, 16:48:15 »

Let's see Fox, how great my curiosity is. Maybe I can hide from Azhira while I read it.

Unfortunately so many other things ask to be done, nice ones and not so nice ones. Currently it draws me to my tablet, but there things get again difficult with Altario's maps and the other one takes time....
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« Reply #16 on: 05 November 2009, 16:49:54 »

Don't worry about it, Talia. I have the Kayrrhem revision to keep me busy. You can look at it whenever you feel like it! :P

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« Reply #17 on: 26 April 2010, 22:52:45 »

Hi Fox...

I started again with your monumental construct and thought a lot about it in the last months (?). I still think, it is planned too grand for the present Santharian Kingdom organisation. It is out of balance. You can't have such a strong state and not have severe trouble. It is a state right now, and not a province.

I have a proposal for you: Keep it as it is, as a great empire! But it reached its end soon after Strata was founded. With all the territory you want to have for  at least part of the time. Its decline started around the time when Strata was founded, due to reasons I can't mention right now and here, but Varcopas might have had its share (it is nearly as old as Thalambath and will be a major contrahent during the centuries)

It has gained strength again after Strata's downfall and is therefore the capital of the province of Truban nowadays, but is is NOT a state, but a province as all others as well. The old Dunraich may still be in the heads, or people may long for these times, but the power of your government, even if it has the same structure still, is restricted. The Royal Revisor is a Thane and not more, it is the duchy of Thalambath now in the province of Truban and not the Dunraich of Thalambath. The Dunraich of Thalambath ended with the rise of Strata which let eventually to the Kingdom of Stratania. Maybe it would be a good idea to think about the temporary breakdown of that governmental structure as well. The common people may well call their province dunraihc still, but it is not the official name anymore and should not be officially called like this in a compendium entry.

I think you would not need to change much, 95% would probably stay. If you agree, I would start to read and comment under this aspect. How it (the duchy of Thalambath) looks now could be part of an entry about the province itself, which I will start soon to collect stuff. You could lay out there the differences between the dunraich and the province only and simply set a link to the other entry. We can then fight* over current territory and influence later. :) But I think it makes only sense to restrict your territory, so that it matches Strata's, more or less. How the territory looks in the head of your people is something else as what should be pinned down in the compendium.

I don't know, if that makes sense, but I would have some areas which are not claimed by anybody. To emphasise the wildness of this land in the South.

*Maybe we should set up a gambling game to decide when the Shendar and when your people owned the Cari'cari oasis? ;)

What do you think about that?

Dunraich, I wonder , where yu got that name from. Is Raich an old English form for empire? Could be well derived from German also:

Dun - Raich;  Dun-Reich; Dünenreich.


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« Reply #18 on: 27 April 2010, 20:47:09 »

First off, I already consider it to have been once a grander empire but now only a remnant. This will be more apparent in the history, but I consider it to be far weaker than it used to be. It is gaining power again, as you said, but now it has to struggle against the new higher-levels of government that serve to keep it in check.


The thing I don't understand is why empty land cannot be claimed as territory, with only minor outposts, and not still be considered untamed and wild. I already shrunk it down to be a lot smaller, and it is extremely small compared to other duchies in Santharia. I do not understand why Truban and Brendolan must have these extremely tiny duchies with huge huge tracts of unclaimed land (governments do not leave land unclaimed, even if they have no settlements there, they claim it for the political edge it gives them) while every other province gets these large duchies (even when those duchies include mountains, which would be no different from vast tracts of desert, yet are claimed anyway by those duchies). I'm assuming the main problem you have still is in it claiming the Lands of Pain, but as I have said, these areas are still pretty much empty. Sure I have an outpost or two, but these are very small, and do not take away from the rest of it, which is empty and wild.

The Sahara Desert is divided up between many nations in Africa (at least as far as I know), does that mean it isn't a wild, untamed, empty desert? No, the lands are claimed, but nothing lives there. That's all I'm asking for here.

What we have right now is a compromise, IMO. The area immediately south of the volcano, with a little tiny bit around the coast that shrinks and grows based on political conditions (we can say it is at a very shrunken level in today's world), and the Lands of Pain, which are essentially empty, claimed more for religious and political reasons than anything else.

I really don't see what's so wrong with the following image:



The red area is the only really populated area, and that's the same area you've given me to work with before. The dark red/brown is claimed, but not populated. It is still wild and untamed, just like you want it to be. I consider this to be a compromise already, considering it is still smaller than I wanted (and far smaller than any duchy outside of Truban). Especially since you gave me permission to claim it in PMs.

As far as matching Strata... I personally believe you gave Strata too little as well. And Varcopas. Hence why in my first map design I gave them all equally larger lands. I think Truban/Brendolan have far too much Shendar/unclaimed lands. But I won't get into that debate again, as we already had it and I submitted.


And I do treat it as a duchy (I consider state and duchy to be interchangeable terms, personally). Everything I've read on the site implies that many of the provinces kept their old names, traditions, and internal political structures. Now, Thalambath might be a bit more 'exotic' than other provinces, but considering how far south it is, I think this is appropriate. Not only are the lands wild, but the governments have little real oversight as well. Arti supported this in reply to your other thread, where he said that it varies 'considerably' from province to province, and is based on local customs (even within duchies, when you consider the elves who have equally exotic government systems). What I write is Thalambath's local customs.

Yes the ranks and titles were renamed on interactions with foreign peoples, but they can still use the old names in their own region. The more recent Ranks and Titles entry supports this. (for example: "Often Thanes also have additional titles related to the history or the geographical position of the province like Marshal in Nermeran, Tristin in Truban or Steward in the province of Sanguia")

"the historical and regional differences and developments of course still reflect as well in specific titles and powers of regional leaders, who still may exert their independence from the King to a certain degree. The actual power constellations compared to the theoretical definitions therefore are much more intricate and complicated, but still they operate to a vast degree in the layed out confines." - Santharian Ranks and Titles entry

This is what I have based my writing here on from the start. Now, what I can do is more thoroughly clarify that how the current hierarchy fits in with the Santharian government (which I believe it does, pretty much all of my ranks can be tied into same system as any other province, they just have some differences in the way the power is handled, which is, again, supported in the Ranks and Titles entry. There is even a still unfinished 'Regional Ranks and Titles' section that, judging from the name, is supposed to show the differences between the various cultures in how they realize the same standard system.

But they still have this system:

Thane (the Royal Viseur, the Seven serve more as an advisory council to the Thane)
Duke (the Royal Viseur technically, the Exarch in practice)
Graven (Vesel-Viseurs)
Privileged Nobility (the Pryus' at the higher levels, smaller business owners beneath them)

While there is a bit of a difference in the way power is handled, it still fits into the Santharian ranking system on a basic level. There are specific differences in the way they are handled, but both entries give evidence to support the viability of this.

I did not want another obviously feudal state of which we already have so many of (as I consider Thalambath's government to be one of its most interesting parts), just as you don't want the Rahaz'Dath to be tamed and civilized (which I believe I have acquiesced to by already giving Thalambath a lot less land when compared to any other province's duchies). The system allows for cultural differences in the way power is handled, so I don't believe I have done anything wrong in this regard. As I said, what I can do is clarify more specifically how these differences tie into the standard high level Santharian structure.

Another thing I could do, if you wish, is to give the Vesal-Viseurs more power than they currently have. Right now they don't really have the power to distribute the land (rather they are allowed to delegate that power but have no real say in 'how' it gets distributed). They are the ones that are seemingly the most outside of the system, and I could change that if you wished, to give them more power over their lands.

Another thing I could change is how the Royal Viseur is chosen. I could perhaps give Varcopas and Strata more say in this, but I am unsure how at this moment. The more say those two have, however, the less power Thalambath will allow the Royal Viseur. Alternatively, I could recreate the Tristin rank, which stands over the Royal Viseur in terms of provincial government, relegating the Royal Viseur to more of a proper 'duke' role. The Tristin, however, would not be allowed too much internal power (which I believe Thalambath would be able to enforce, as they do have dominance right now).


And yes, raich was derived from the German reich, as I was designing Thalambath with a lot of Nazi Germany influences and I've always loved the way 'reich' sounded. Dun + reich just sounded cool, I don't know what dun/dunen means in German. Quite a few of the people names also are a blend between German-sounding and Egyptian-sounding names.
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #19 on: 27 April 2010, 22:36:50 »

Fox..  *gives her a cup of fine tea and some Shendar sweets she has yet to develop*

 I might have expressed myself wrong. What I said about "grandness" did not refer to our discussions and the scaled down province of Thalambath. What I meant was more that what you initially wanted would never fit now, and maybe not in the past either. When I looked at your submission, I did not know where to start, what to skip, what to discuss. So I thought it might be a better way to think about how the dunraich would have looked back during the time of its glory, to decide when a certain town/area could have been inhabited, or why not.

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The thing I don't understand is why empty land cannot be claimed as territory, with only minor outposts, and not still be considered untamed and wild.
I asked myself, if not claimed areas would make sense. But it is one thing, a power claiming a territory, another, if this is accepted by the "authorities". So Thalambath might well claim the golden reach, but what if this claim is not accepted in New Santhala? Then it will not go into the  compendium. But I have not made up my mind anyway. I feel, that if anyone claims a territory, it is somehow 'violated'. Its less... whatever.. than before. But that may only be my own weird opinion.

You compare the Rahaz-Dath a lot with more Northern areas, but I think you cannot, for up there are, apart from a few wild mountain ranges, all the area is inhabited, and exactly that I wanted to avoid. I want a big part of it unknown to most people, apart from the Shendar, and even from them. They would not claim anything as theirs, but if another power does it, they of course will do it also.

Fox, I didn't say anything about the area you posted in your last pic. I did not really question it, I thought we could speak about this at a later point.

I think our problem is, that you write as a native of that area, and of course, you think in terms of "dunraich", and not province.

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The Dunraich of Thalambath

The Dunraich of Thalambath is one of the oldest civilizations in the United Kingdom of Santharia. It has existed as an independent sovereignty since near the War of the Chosen, and as a member of the Stratanian Kingdom and eventually the United Kingdom of Santharia since then.

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The Dunraich of Thalambath is more commonly known as the Thalambathian State in its territory, and as the Duchy of Thalambath in more northern provinces of Santharia, but it still uses the Ancient Kaipheran word of Dunraich for official papers and representations. Though Dunraich simply translates to “state” or “kingdom” in Tharian, it has evolved in the current time to refer to the nation as a whole.

I think, the correct version of the last paragraph would be this, (though for me 'state' is not the same as 'province', but always has the ring of sovereignty without any higher power above):

The Duchy of Thalambath is more commonly known as the Thalambathian State in its territory, even the expression "Dunraich of Thalambath" after the old empire is more often used as "province". it still uses the Ancient Kaipheran word of Dunraich for official papers and representations.

Would it be allowed to speak of 'Kingdom' for an Santharian Province? Was that not discouraged when Santhros united the lands, why are then Thanes not Kings under the Santhran? So an official entry for the compendium should use the proper names, and not those the people use. Even if your papers have it on their headings. I hope I made myself a bit more understandable.

I've run out of time right now.

dunes - Dünen --> Dunraich - empire of dunes?


I'll answer your PM later   heart
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« Reply #20 on: 27 April 2010, 23:35:45 »

Argh!!!  Ninja'd.  Oh well, I spent time writing it, so I'm posting it.  If it is now irrelevant, ignore it.  :P  Now I'll read Talias new post to see how far off base I was.


May I interject a comment?

Talia, I'm wondering if you being from the heart of Europe,  which has history going back two thousand years and further, might have a coloured judgement.

Being over here in North America, our history has always been one of exploration.  In Calgary, where I'm from, we don't have thousand year old buildings.  You'd be hard pressed to find half a dozen hundred year old buildings.

Here, we don't have dozens of countries gathered around each other, with defined borders.  What we had was a vast tract of untamed, unexplored wilderness that claimed by sometimes more than one country at a time, though they didn't know what lay within.  It was a hollow grab for power, which happened to be fulfilled by the US and for Canada eventually.  But at the time, it was land held in name only, and not in any practical sense.

When the US made the Louisiana Purchase, no one lived there (at least not the Americans, and nobody asked the natives if they wanted to be US citizens).  Same with Lewis and Clarke extending the US claim from Eastern US through to the Pacific.  That great big area in between, which now comprises one of the largest sections of America, was empty space.  (Again, no one sought out the natives opinion).

Even today, especially in Canada, we have lots of area where there are few people, but is still considered ours.

My point is this.  Would not Fox's "Empire" be able to claim large tracts of land that would be considered by a unbiased eye to be wilderness and uninhabited?  Claiming land where no one lives might extend your borders on a map, but in a physical way does not advantage you at all.  In fact, sometimes it can only hurt, as many empires in history over extended and then collapsed because of it; Rome being a good example.

As long as Fox does not start putting in a bunch of settlements and civilizing the area, does it affect anyone elses history?  I mean, in truth, could not two kingdoms claim the same unsettled land and not even know it?  We are talking, after all, of great distances and relatively few people, and primitive technology in terms of long distance communication and proper surveying techniques.  If these were, and are still, wilderness area, then I could or anyone could claim it on paper but never hold it in a practical sense.

Just my opinion, and placed here in hopes that a compromise can be worked out. :D
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« Reply #21 on: 28 April 2010, 00:34:27 »

Fox..  *gives her a cup of fine tea and some Shendar sweets she has yet to develop*

 I might have expressed myself wrong. What I said about "grandness" did not refer to our discussions and the scaled down province of Thalambath. What I meant was more that what you initially wanted would never fit now, and maybe not in the past either. When I looked at your submission, I did not know where to start, what to skip, what to discuss. So I thought it might be a better way to think about how the dunraich would have looked back during the time of its glory, to decide when a certain town/area could have been inhabited, or why not.

I've been going by the present, and gradually expand 'downwards' into history. Because if we think about the details of the history now, it will take forever to get this done. I have tried to be vague enough while still hinting that there was a 'greater past' that isn't here anymore, but is still attempted to be emulated by the way it conducts itself.

While you do not know where to start in replying to the entry, I do not know where to start in considering what exactly you have a problem with in terms of 'grandness'. I would need specific examples of what you do not like for me to give any direct comments on this.

Quote
I asked myself, if not claimed areas would make sense. But it is one thing, a power claiming a territory, another, if this is accepted by the "authorities". So Thalambath might well claim the golden reach, but what if this claim is not accepted in New Santhala? Then it will not go into the  compendium. But I have not made up my mind anyway. I feel, that if anyone claims a territory, it is somehow 'violated'. Its less... whatever.. than before. But that may only be my own weird opinion.

You compare the Rahaz-Dath a lot with more Northern areas, but I think you cannot, for up there are, apart from a few wild mountain ranges, all the area is inhabited, and exactly that I wanted to avoid. I want a big part of it unknown to most people, apart from the Shendar, and even from them. They would not claim anything as theirs, but if another power does it, they of course will do it also.

If this land is considered unclaimed by the duchy, and therefore unclaimed by the province, then the Rahaz'dath desert is, in fact, not a part of the Santharian Kingdom. For the highest levels of government to be able to say 'we own this', then it must be distributed amongst the lower levels. New Santhala would say 'we own the whole Truban province'. Therefore, they have already 'claimed' the Rahaz'dath desert. As long as it is considered a portion of the Truban province, it is already claimed by the higher levels of government. The higher levels of government, then, would distribute that land amongst the lower levels. Land unclaimed by the kingdom would fall outside the kingdom. Land claimed by the kingdom would be divided up between the kingdom's constituents.

If I were to have claim to these areas, they would be no more populated than they are now. Just because I claim an area, does not mean I want to change your environment. I don't. I've been trying to respect it, I really have. It just means I, from my government standpoint, want to be able to draw bigger borders (namely, borders that reach each other, with nothing 'empty' in the middle). Nothing else. I am not trying to ruin anything you have designed. The Shendar can roam whereever they want, regardless of where the borders are drawn. Thalambath claiming the land does not put any restrictions on them.

Ultimately, I relate to the land from a government standpoint, while you relate to it from a Shendar standpoint. In my view, I see the Santharian government owning everything from the Tandala Mountains to the Burning Sea. All the land, every mountain range, lake, and desert. They then divide that land between the provinces. Who divide that land between the duchies. Who divide that land between the local lords. From a government standpoint, there is no room for a free land. The only free land is a land that the government (which still owns it) has explicitly ruled to be 'free' for some legitimate reason. Elven lands, for instance, are on their own, but it's because the government allows the elves to control that land.

You see it from the Shendar standpoint, which seems to me to be "you only 'own' where you live. You put down an abode here, it is yours, until you move, then it is free again." This works for the Shendar. If the Shendar wish to see it this way, great. The borders of other duchies wouldn't even bother them because they don't see things in that light. They would cross borders and continue to wander without care.

These two systems are incompatible on the same map. From a government standpoint, I cannot abide the thought of land that is 'free'. Free land is ripe for the taking. The only place your border should stop is at another country's borders. And even then, there are armies and diplomacy to get around that little hurdle. Point is, a government does not see any land as free. It might establish land as being 'not fit for settlement/travel', but it would still own the land.

When I look at a nation map, I see it based on land ownership. When you look at a map, you see it as 'the people only live here, here, and here'. This is where the big problem between us is in terms of understanding one another. While you see tiny red circles of population, I see large red circles of bordership, where there is no such thing as 'empty' land. It might be physically empty, yes. It might even be a giant chasm that leads straight to the other side of the planet for all I care. But my red circle would still cover it. :)

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I think, the correct version of the last paragraph would be this, (though for me 'state' is not the same as 'province', but always has the ring of sovereignty without any higher power above):

That's because you're from Europe. In the US, a state is essentially a province. We have the central government, and each individual state that is part of the government, with their own state governments. Those governments have little real power beyond managing themselves, and many of their laws are determined by the central government. In the US, state is essentially 'a portion of a larger country'. ;)

Quote
Would it be allowed to speak of 'Kingdom' for an Santharian Province? Was that not discouraged when Santhros united the lands, why are then Thanes not Kings under the Santhran? So an official entry for the compendium should use the proper names, and not those the people use. Even if your papers have it on their headings. I hope I made myself a bit more understandable.

This would be fine. I can alter it to mention more specifically that in the larger kingdom, their titles are referred to by the normal Santharian names. But to keep this entry culturally local (which I believe the various entries are trying to show), it will still largely refer to them by their local names, just as when we mention the Tristin in entries we call it a Tristin, not a Thane. I'll just make it more clear that all of the titles are specifically linked with the proper Santharian ones.

Quote
dunes - Dünen --> Dunraich - empire of dunes?

Wow. It was not intended to be that, but it fits perfectly, lol.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2010, 00:40:58 by Fox » Logged
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #22 on: 28 April 2010, 03:53:55 »

I PMed Fox, that I have run out of energy today and will postpone that till tomorrow. But I have an answer for you, Alt

Quote
Talia, I'm wondering if you being from the heart of Europe,  which has history going back two thousand years and further, might have a coloured judgement.

You got it right, I'm born in a town which is not far away of one of the places which call themselves "Center of Europe". And all my ancestors were born in this area also, no exception ;)

Maybe I do have a coloured judgement - I do not feel the need to claim, what I cannot own anyway.

Enough deep thinking for today. Attached a picture of Europe, the mark is my town of birth, Wunsiedel.
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« Reply #23 on: 29 April 2010, 04:16:23 »

A short answer to the territory/border discussion

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If this land is considered unclaimed by the duchy, and therefore unclaimed by the province, then the Rahaz'dath desert is, in fact, not a part of the Santharian Kingdom. For the highest levels of government to be able to say 'we own this', then it must be distributed amongst the lower levels. New Santhala would say 'we own the whole Truban province'. Therefore, they have already 'claimed' the Rahaz'dath desert. As long as it is considered a portion of the Truban province, it is already claimed by the higher levels of government. The higher levels of government, then, would distribute that land amongst the lower levels. Land unclaimed by the kingdom would fall outside the kingdom. Land claimed by the kingdom would be divided up between the kingdom's constituents.

I do not agree here, it has not to be like this, just because it is the way in the US.. (there is nothing medieval there ;) )

An area can be claimed by the crown directly, without belonging to any duchy and therefore to another person/family. The Santhran could claim the centre of the Rahaz-Dath as his own. Or even all the lands (or most), the Shendar roam in, maybe to protect their style of life. Don't forget, that they no apolitcal group f wild nomads, but have their representative in the Counsil of the Hands. I don't know, what to do, if I should make duchies out of Shendar territory (the three subtribes) - the governmental structure would be there.

Of course any power can claim an area, but doesn't it have to be able to defend it as well? What if the neighbar doesn't agree?

The Nirmenith are so wild and nearly inaccessible , so what, if Thalambath would claim it and Varcopas as well, or the Ai'nuvic Grounds?  Both have not even access to that area. And the Shendar do not care, as long as they can travel through undisturbed.

So, what should that poor guy in New Santhala do, who has to draw that map? Be afraid to be either killed by an Thalambathian or Varcopasian assassin?

To the 'state' question - maybe we should try to find out, how this word was used in the middleages and use it in the same way.

Now, to your submission - which will take some time.
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« Reply #24 on: 29 April 2010, 09:33:24 »

How is there nothing medieval there? They have maps in Santharia, a whole map of the kingdom, so they would be doing the same thing I am... meeting together, and pointing out what areas they have, dividing it between themselves greedily. Making deals over who gets what, etc. I don't see how that isn't medieval.

Quote
An area can be claimed by the crown directly, without belonging to any duchy and therefore to another person/family. The Santhran could claim the centre of the Rahaz-Dath as his own. Or even all the lands (or most), the Shendar roam in, maybe to protect their style of life. Don't forget, that they no apolitcal group f wild nomads, but have their representative in the Counsil of the Hands. I don't know, what to do, if I should make duchies out of Shendar territory (the three subtribes) - the governmental structure would be there.

I did not dispute that it could not be claimed by the crown directly, just that for political reasons the crown would be hardpressed to keep that land all to himself when it would anger one of the constituents, especially when it is land like in the Rahaz'death where it is so far from the capital city and of little economic value. The crown would brush it off and say 'sure sure, you can have it, I don't want it', to appease them.

If you want to say, that the Santhran claims it, he needs to have a reason. You cannot just say he claims it arbitrarily. Because people will be angry (and I don't mean just Thalambath, but Varcopas and Strata as well), because their lands are kept smaller because of it.

And yes, I understand that the Shendar would be allowed lands of their own (and have been going under this assumption). The problem is, they are given an extremely large amount of land. Even assuming that the Shendar are allowed to say 'technically there are three sub-groups of Shendar, each should get an equal plot of land' (a reason that the crown might possibly go for, but would PISS OFF Thalambath, Strata, Varcopas, and Bardavos. Because it means the Shendar are getting special treatment by means of a very unstable loophole. Thalambath could claim that as well, unless we are doing away with having both Stratanians and Kaizranians in Thala).


And yes, they would have to defend the area, either by soldiers or by diplomacy. This is another problem the Shendar would have. Thalambath at the least would be willing to use military force to secure the lands nearest them. I'm not saying they're going to be able to enforce everything there (a desert warfare campaign is very hard to supply), but they would go to war over it unless the crown intervened. And even if the crown did, they might choose to secede if the crown supports the Shendar even though they already have essentially a monopoly on the land.

Yes though, I am not saying Varcopas or anyone would claim the Aj'nuvic lands if they don't even know how to get there. The mountains though, they could. Just the mountains would need to be settled via exterior means, IE combat elsewhere (where the winner is treated as gaining the mountain territory), or diplomacy.

Quote
So, what should that poor guy in New Santhala do, who has to draw that map? Be afraid to be either killed by an Thalambathian or Varcopasian assassin?

With the amount of land being given to the Shendar right now? Yes. It wouldn't be just one man though, it'd be a team of diplomats of the various constituents, possibly the Thanes, who are discussing it.


What we need to do here, IMO, Talia, is come up with a proper map with all the borders. Again, there's no such thing as 'free land'. Someone owns everything, and unless you can give me a good reason why the crown would say 'no one is allowed to settle in this area', then no land is 'free'. It needs to be divided up based on borders, with no land outside of those borders. Even in medieval times, government does not say 'that land doesn't exist just because we can't put a town on it'. Especially with the ancient governments that exist here. I could see if they were new governments, so would be deliberately placing limits on how much they're claiming, but with how old all of them are, and with how much money each has, they're going to be wheeling and dealing for every scrap.

Borders also do not mean the Shendar cannot travel where they will. The Thalambathians won't like it if the Shendar enter their borders, but unless they wander right up to a Thalambath outpost, Thala can't do anything about it. So even if Thala's territory covered the whole of the large area I had originally suggested, Shendar could wander through it unimpeded, and it would be no different than if the borders weren't there. The borders exist on a map, but not anywhere in person. No walls or anything.


This is how the map of both desert provinces looks to me, right now. It is based on the political spectrum map you gave me earlier. I've divided the Shendar into 4 'zones'. One for each of the three sub-tribes, and one that could be considered 'open to all Shendar'. This is mostly because you know better than me where each of the 3 dwell, so you'd have to clarify exactly who is where for me. This map is rough.

What we need, is for both of us to take a map, draw out where we see the borders (without leaving anything out), and discuss how much of the plot each side gets.

Essentially we need to map out the duchies, thinking about things not just from a singular city level.

Here's my current map based on your original spectrum map you posted on the first page of the thread. The main differences, aside from what is mentioned above, is that I gave Thala the Lands of Pain (which were 'unclaimed' in your spectrum map) and the Shendar the little area below the Madi Gradi Salt Pans (which were unclaimed). I also expanded the map to include the Scattersand Shoals, which Strata owns (as far as I know?).



Please let me know if there are any changes to this that you'd like to see, to put the map at your 'final version', then we can work on discussing what I would like to see changed.

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« Reply #25 on: 29 April 2010, 10:22:27 »

For the love of Ava! Can't you two agreeably share a little bit of land? My Themed'lon is bigger than Thalambath! I only share with myself though.  grin

Just go to WAR already. That's how we do things up North and its worked well so far. Unclaimed lands? Pfft. Attack and pillage it. Problem solved.  evil

*the Kanapans are exempt...no one knows what those bull lovers do over there...or wait, maybe we do!  buck*
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« Reply #26 on: 29 April 2010, 17:35:46 »

I want to see you in my place, Azhira! The Thalambathians would have hided in the lava tubes!  buck

Fox, I'm not happy with the map, what I threw out was a first approach, quickly made, but not necessarily how I think now it should look like. I will get to it eventually and post it in the Truban/Brendulan Thread. But only after I'm through with your main submission. It is not important for the definition of the Thalambath province area

Claiming something or not is not the only question here - I always wrote, emphasized, that the Ráhaz-Dáth is not accessible, out of its very own nature. I does not need the Shendar, to defend itself. Even the Shendar need special guides to get from one waterhole to the next. Any intruder will get lost and die, sooner or later. That is true not only for the central part, but for the mountains as well as for most parts of the Lands of Pain or the volcano, the open woodlands and the Jewels.  Of course single adventures will manage to go into those areas, maybe even a small, but strong military force. But nobody ever except a Shendar did cross the Rahaz-Dath from North to South. Even the cloud forest is not accessible due to its steep coastline (with a few exceptions)

So, how should anybody claim a land which he does not even know exists, or at least what exists behind that stretch of unforgiving sand?? Where no soldier of that land has ever been? Of course they can say, the next 200 or 2000 strals are mine also, but that could the neighboar say as well. So, who draws the map?

You say, The thala's would not mind, or could say anything if the Shendar cross their claimed territory. That is so contrary how you describe them : do you really think, they would allow a caravan with a lot of goods through their lands without asking at least for a considerable amout of tax? I see already now, that the Shen-Kha'si income will shrink dramatically! ;)

I'll think about your territory while reading through your stuff, Fox.

Please let me catch up a bit , go and tweak the Kayrhem meanwhile! If I'm writing and discussing too much right here, I will never get done, and a very busy time familywise lays ahead of me.

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« Reply #27 on: 29 April 2010, 18:20:36 »

I want to see you in my place, Azhira! The Thalambathians would have hided in the lava tubes!  buck

Fox, I'm not happy with the map, what I threw out was a first approach, quickly made, but not necessarily how I think now it should look like. I will get to it eventually and post it in the Truban/Brendulan Thread. But only after I'm through with your main submission. It is not important for the definition of the Thalambath province area

It's not a final map. I would just like to get an idea of what you would like. That is how I am looking at it from your initial design, and I welcome whatever changes you make so I can get an idea of what you are planning.

The point is, if we are to discuss territory, visual aids help.

Quote
Claiming something or not is not the only question here - I always wrote, emphasized, that the Ráhaz-Dáth is not accessible, out of its very own nature. I does not need the Shendar, to defend itself. Even the Shendar need special guides to get from one waterhole to the next. Any intruder will get lost and die, sooner or later. That is true not only for the central part, but for the mountains as well as for most parts of the Lands of Pain or the volcano, the open woodlands and the Jewels.  Of course single adventures will manage to go into those areas, maybe even a small, but strong military force. But nobody ever except a Shendar did cross the Rahaz-Dath from North to South. Even the cloud forest is not accessible due to its steep coastline (with a few exceptions)

So, how should anybody claim a land which he does not even know exists, or at least what exists behind that stretch of unforgiving sand?? Where no soldier of that land has ever been? Of course they can say, the next 200 or 2000 strals are mine also, but that could the neighboar say as well. So, who draws the map?

But they do know it exists. It has been charted and mapped. The map on the website is an "in-character" one. And who is to say, that no soldier of that land has been there, when that nation has existed for thousands of years? Thala (or even Varcopas or Strata) are not new, they are not baby nations. They've been living there for a very, very long time.

The people who draw the borders of the map are the leaders of the nations. The Thalambath leader, the Strata leader, the Shendar leader, the Strata leader, the Varcopas leader. They gather together, have a map, and carve things out and make treaties and purchase plots of land.

When I say claim, I do not mean just arbitrarily saying 'that's mine'. I mean the wheeling and dealing that is involved with it. Purchasing parts of the land from the person who owns it, offering parts of his own land that another side wants in exchange for parts another side has.

In one word: Politics.

Or, going "screw you guys, I hate politics" and declaring war, and fighting over it.

(and no, I am not disputing that the Shendar would not own pretty much all of the eastern desert. But the territory closest to Thala/Strata/Varc/Bardovas would be contested)

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You say, The thala's would not mind, or could say anything if the Shendar cross their claimed territory. That is so contrary how you describe them : do you really think, they would allow a caravan with a lot of goods through their lands without asking at least for a considerable amout of tax? I see already now, that the Shen-Kha'si income will shrink dramatically! ;)

I did not say they would not mind. I said they would not be able to enforce it. They wouldn't LIKE Shendar in their borders. But in the middle of the dunes, strals away from any outpost, the Shendar don't have to worry. Thala certainly won't like it and will go after them if they get near a patrol or outpost, but the vast majority of the territory would not have either.

Quote
Please let me catch up a bit , go and tweak the Kayrhem meanwhile! If I'm writing and discussing too much right here, I will never get done, and a very busy time familywise lays ahead of me.

Yeah, I keep meaning to do that...

And really, I just want to get over the territory hurdle. That's our big problem and I think once we iron that out we are fine. That's why I'd really like to get something resolved there.

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« Reply #28 on: 02 October 2010, 05:53:56 »

Sorry for the long wait!

Hi Fox, I started twice this year to finish this comment (in spring and August). If I reread all now again I might not bring it on the forum this time either. So please forgive, if there are inconsistencies left or things are said twice (or spelling errors). I add a summary now out of my head at the end, and a proposal about the duchy (?) and the Dunraich.

Edit: I just realised, that where I said, use province, it should be duchy! Province is Truban with the Duchies of Thalambath, Strata, Varcopas and others. So please replace province with duchy, where I missed it!



Note that the government section is fairly politically sophisticated. I wanted the Dunraich to feel more bureaucratic and, more importantly, different from the stock fantasy feudal governments. I reason that Thalambath has had plenty of time to develop a fairly complex political and economic system considering that most of its citizens are educated and the Dunraich has existed in a comparatively untouched state for nearly 9,000 years (of course it's had its own civil wars and so on, but not nearly the amount of border changes and government takeovers that occurred in most of the other human nations). Plus the current government of the state is only about 400 years old, and when I work on the history, the development of the government over the centuries is going to be one of the key factors.

Untouched? Should it not be bound into the wars of the rest of the southern Sarvonian continent? Like planned here?
http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,10783.0.html

------

The Dunraich of Thalambath

The Dunraich of Thalambath is one of the oldest civilizations in the United Kingdom of Santharia. It has existed as an independent sovereignty since near the War of the Chosen, and as a member of the Stratanian Kingdom and eventually the United Kingdom of Santharia since then. At the present day, the Dunraich is one of the most economically powerful nations in Santharia, as a result of a very strong and organized governmental system. It has directly assisted in the funding of Strata’s reemergence as a trade city, operates a trade franchise of its own, handles the provincial governing of the Truban region, and has the most powerful law enforcement and military technology in the region of the Rahaz’Dath.

The Dunraich of Thalambath is more commonly known as the Thalambathian State in its territory, and as the Duchy of Thalambath in more northern provinces of Santharia, but it still uses the Ancient Kaipheran word of Dunraich for official papers and representations. Though Dunraich simply translates to “state” or “kingdom” in Tharian, it has evolved in the current time to refer to the nation as a whole.

The Dunraich is known for its strict regime, and the preeminence of its mage class in the upper echelons of society—a trait that not even Ximax can claim. The Dunraich also sits atop the ruins of one of the most powerful empires of ages long past, Astár’Nuvíc, and it is thus a fountain of lore, ranging from the arcane, to historical, to darker occult secrets.

While the Dunraich has suffered from internal unrest, particularly during the early periods of its history, it currently presents a strongly united front. Its businesses are known for their fierce competition with one another, but they work together to keep foreign markets from disturbing the internal balance, keeping Thalambathian-owned enterprises at the top of the food chain inside the state.

As I said above already, you are, apart from one mentioning that it is the duchy of Thalambath , describing that duchy as if it is still the empire from past times. I think what is here needed is more distance. You write it as a loyal citizen whose dearest wish is, that the old empire would still exist and not as the compendium writer, who, even if he is born there, should keep some more distance and describe it, at least in the first paragraphs, from the sight of somebody who looks at this Truban province from New Santhala, as the province it is now. You can of course mention, that the citizens there still pretend, that nothing has happened and use Dunraich on their papers. The heading is already wrong, it should be the „Duchy of Thalambath“ what it is officially. It is not any longer, correctly speaking, the Dunraich=Empire. It is only a name now. I don‘t know, if it is a good idea, to pack all the history of the Dunraich in the history of the „Province“. The history of this submission would only start with the founding of Santharia, this is meant as a description of the province, isn‘t it?  Development of the government e.g. at the time of the empire does not belong it this entry. If you want to write about the empire, then you should do this in an extra entry.
Edit: Oh well, I don't know


Location
The Dunraich lies at the western edge of the Rahaz’Dath desert in the Truban province of Santharia. Their territory extends from the western shores to just east of the Cari’Cari Oasis near the center of the Rahaz’Dath desert. From the north, Thalambathians count the edge of the Nirmenith Mountains as their border, and a series of fortresses and walls north of the Yar’Dangs makes up their southern border. The area of desert directly to the east and south of the capital city of Thalambath, terminating at the Yar’Dangs and the coast of the Burning Sea, is known as the Golden Reach.


I‘ll give my comments to the territory below.
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« Reply #29 on: 02 October 2010, 05:58:08 »

Description
The Dunraich is characterized by large, empty sand dunes, with a few cities spread throughout the edges where sustainable life is possible. And yet, the dunes appear more civilized than the rest of the Rahaz’Dath. Most travelers find themselves walking pressed sand or sweeped stone roads, painstakingly maintained by the state. Tall, dark stone pikes thrust out of the dunes every stral or two, marking the routes on the horizon when the roads might not. And, from time to time, the characteristic dome huts of Shendar families might be seen nestled snuggly amidst the endless desert.

You might need to change some of these descriptions. Please see below. What the Shendar concerns I need to think about where exactly they would set up their domes - not in the plain desert sands. For travelling it woudl be too time consuming.

//Pictures of Land: Ingeborg 31 and 14
"The majestic golden lands of the Dunraich of Thalambath."




Appearing at one of the cities presents a stark image of majesty. Dark reddish-orange and black buildings rise out of the sands, as if one had stumbled across an unmapped mountain range, only to realize that the shapes are far too straight and geometrical. Each building seems dwarfed by yet another building, though distinguishing any two buildings apart is difficult, as little beyond their size and perhaps the sparse customizations on the roofs separates them. One almost gets the feeling that they have stumbled across a wall, and, indeed, many of the buildings are attached to each other, with arching bridges crossing over the streets below.

And a site reserved only for the capital cities of Thalambath and Ankhat, one finds their eyes immediately drawn to the towering structures that shade even the monolithic stone shapes beneath them. Marrasquean manors, built of the richest nor’sidian stone, reach towards the sky, yet ward it away as if the wind were a demon by the sharp spikes and gruesome statues that ring the edges of these majestic towers. And in the distance, dwarfing even these dark buildings, rises the Norong’Sorno volcano, throwing out clouds of white and grey dust into the air—visible even from hundreds of strals away.

I don‘t think, that the province is characterized by large, empty sand dunes. They are part of it, but not what makes the core of it. There is foremost Thalmabath and Ankhat with the fertile land west of Thalambath, the most important one. Then the volcano. The Land of Pain has no dunes either, or only a few.
It looks more like those martian landscapes, maybe like this
http://helga-ingo.de/steine/steinwueste.jpg
http://www.laussner.net/Image_Travel/marokko/steinwueste.jpg
towards the Norong‘sorno more like this , there could be some reddish sandunes.
http://rentmauicondos.com/images/haleakala_crater.jpg

Then sanddunes would only be in the Southern part.


Important Locations. Though Thalambath is the largest city within the Dunraich, there are several smaller but equally vital townships within its borders. Many of these are the domains of wealthy Thalam Wizards who decided to carve out a section of the desert that they could do with as they please without the constant threat of political rivalries over their shoulders. These settlements generally continue to rely on Thalambath for sustenance and support, though some manage to eke out enough for themselves through efficient use of the land around them. Each formal town or outpost is ruled by a Vesal-Viseur, who has been granted the right to the city through favour currying with the Royal Viseur of Thalambath.

* The Capital City of Thalambath
Thalambath is the capital of the nation of the same name and is one of the oldest and largest cities on the Sarvonian continent. It is also one of the most secure, with a vastly higher ratio of law enforcement per civilian than any other city in Santharia. So low is its crime rate that even the Templars of the Black Pearl, who were rumored to have a high level operative placed in every major city in Santharia, refused to operate here due to the risk involved. Thalambath has been the capital of the Thalambath Dunraich since its formation from the ruins of the ancient Kaizoumetran town of Merioch, and has since become the capital of the Truban province as a whole. Within the state, Thalambath is frequently referred to as “Capital City”, to distinguish it from the Thalambathian state as a whole.

I have here problem with your word „nation“, isn‘t it just a tribe? Is ,nation‘ not a bit too modern?
,State‘ confuses me, why don‘t you use province?
I don‘t think either, that we should pin down, that Thalambath has always been the capital of the province. Why should the province be named „Stratanian Province“, if Strata was not the capital for a significant long time till its downfall.


* The City of Ankhat
Ankhat is frequently considered a part of the capital city, but is in fact a city all of its own. Only a day’s ride from Thalambath, Ankhat is the second most populated settlement in Thalambath, and for good reason. It is the breadbasket of the state, as it lies on the western peninsula, on the ancient dried lava flows of the Norong’Sorno, which provide excellent growing soil. Rain is abundant here too (for a desert), so most of Thalambath’s farms are located here. Ankhat has the most political influence with the capital city of any other city in the region, and if not for its lack of a suitable harbour, would rival Thalambath for the position of capital of the state. Ankhat is also a watchpost over the Truban Gulf, and is known for its lighthouse, which serves as both a garrison to watch for hostile fleets as well as a guide for trading ships from Nybelmar and the north.

There are roughly 150 strals from Thalambath to Ankath, so maybe more a two days ride.

* The Township of Bezalhur
Bezalhur is the third largest town in the Dunraich, though it is fairly small in comparison to the capital city and Ankhat. Located to the direct west of the Norong’Sorno volcano, at the edge of its slopes, it supports itself with farming in the region but, most importantly, harvests wood from the dark forest that lies on the slopes of the volcano. Bezalhur is constantly in threat of the volcano, more so than any other Thalambath settlement, and the city has been forced to evacuate several times due to the threat of an eruption.

I actually wanted to have the whole west slope of the volcano to be inhabitable, lavastreams down till the coast with no way to get to the north except by ship. This could be a fairly recent feature, maybe 800 years only, so you could incorporate it into the empire, maybe it was destroyed several times , but build up again, destroyed, build up. I‘m not sure about the dark forest on the slopes either (on each side), certainly not too high up., say about three hundret peds above sea level? And only on the south and east side.

* The Fortress of Eastwall
Eastwall is a large fortress-town located at the eastern border of the state, settling on the edge of the dunes of the Golden Reach. Regularly supplied by the capital, Eastwall is utterly dependent on outside sustenance. The majority of the Thalambath military is housed here, ready and waiting for the call to arms should the Dunraich become threatened. Those trying to slip into Thalambath unnoticed and without the proper Travel Coins are transferred to Eastwall, where they are imprisoned within its worn dungeons and interrogated. Most trade coming from the province of Brendolan and the eastern Rahaz’Dath is funneled through Eastwall.

Ok, but not farther East, ok?

But - I don‘t see, why you need to have most of your military there, which threat do you think comes from that part of the desert? A Shendar invasion? Strata? I don‘t think, that Thalambath needs to defend this border so heavily, that it has to have all its military there. There is not much trade coming from Brendolan (Bardavos), the most goes via ship over Varcopas, to Thalambath or Strata, if some captains don‘t want to use your harbour. Of course there will be caravans for stuff which might not survive a seavoyage, or for items the Shendar produce themselves, or items they buy in Bardovas and sell for more money in Strata. The Shen‘Siuu will sell you their salt there, but if Strata offers better prizes, they will bring it there. Such a heavy fortress would be a great threat to the Shendar in the Cari‘Cari though. So, there we would need quite some good arguments, why Thalambath wouldn‘t overtake it.


Why don‘t you make it a bit smaller, maybe as a prison town, where escaping per se is not possible, because you would die in the desert afterwards. But you don‘t need the major part of your military there. I would even agree to have it a little more south in the sanddunes, to enforce that prison feeling. Do you want to have these buildings red to black also? Somehow I see only sand coloured houses there, maybe a little orange, so that it melts in the sand.

Edit:
Originally you had it in the middle of that dunes. Though I do not like to have something there right now, because I love the untouched sanddunes like they are on the map, I think a strong town in the first hundred to 500 years (or more, say 2000?) might make sense - before the saltpans were saltpans, but maybe a lake. I thought the grasslands of the old empire would not vanish from today to tomorrow, but only over the time, in the central Rahaz-Dath earlier than more in the south though. As this area was populated before and had fields and forests, it might have had those for some time after the great disaster also, but , say, after 1000 years (?don‘t know, if I like this idea later  still) they just mismanaged their farming, used up, cut their trees and none were able to grow back, due to lack of water and a change of the climate which resulted from that deforestation. So, now there would be a buried city under those ruins. Only now and then, when the dunes wander, some remains would surface.


* The Border Keep of Southwatch
Southwatch lies about a few hours ride south of Eastwall, near the coast of the Aetryam Sea. It sits squarely on the edge of Thalambath’s borders, along the road south to Strata. Nearly all trade from Strata passes through Southwatch, where they are documented, commissioned Travel Coins, and given their designated routes through Thalambath’s lands. Southwatch was formerly a military outpost designed to alert Eastwall and Thalambath of any military incursions coming from Strata, though its presence is more benign now than in previous times.

The same applies as above - would it be not much easier to transport the goods by ship? Strata is not so long present, maybe it was a watchtower for the evil things from the South from the beginning.

* The Border Keep of Northpoint
Northpoint is the most northern settlement of Thalambath, and though it is named a keep, it is little more than a tower overlooking a small mining town. Northpoint sits at the edge of the coast at the most northwestern portion of the Lands of Pain, directly under the shadow of the Nirmenith Mountains. Few citizens live here, only a few soldiers and the miners and excavators of the mountains.

You can‘t have it now, but up to 500 (1000?) years before our time. Maybe your people gave it up, after they cut in all the trees which were not too difficult to harvest, or they poisoned the land with their mining and therefore left because it was more of less inhabitable. After a few hundred years, nature might have healed itself again or there was a way for new people to heal this area. Maybe you have to go a bit to the South, just out of military reasons, but this would have to be again an outpost which cannot sustain itself. See my proposal of the town in the mountains.

Edit - maybe a small harbour-village  for the mining village?


* The Golden Reach
The Golden Reach is the name of the dunes that lie to the east of the Norong’Sorno volcano and before the Makadi Gadi Salt Pans, running from the edge of the Nirmenith Mountains to the Yar’dangs. Though not entirely under Thalambath’s control, as Shendar exert their claims over the territory, bigger or smaller parts of it have occasionally fallen under the Dunraich’s dominion over the centuries. They are rich golden plains, with little apart from sand and dust. However, one can find Thalambathian roads here, which, depending on the political climate of the time, are swept and pressed in order to allow caravans to cross the desert. Every stral along the side of the road are large stone pillars reaching into the sky, which provide guides in case the roads have been covered by a sandstorm.

Why would Thalambath build such expensive roads into nowhere? Which caravans? There should be none except to the tombs, and I don‘t know, if such visits would be called caravans. Even if the roads were build in „good“ times, I doubt, that they would still be there, apart from remains here and there. But no pillar stands as long as this. Maybe one big road around the volcano to the burial grounds (with pillars), that is religious motivated and makes sense. Any pillar towards the cari‘cari though may find an early end... ;) And you would not build them for the Shendar, I assume..

//DEVELOPMENT NOTE

//

* The Lands of Pain
The Lands of Pain are almost entirely uninhabited. A single small outpost at the eastern shore is all that lies here, where a scant mining operation harvests the dark sand and stone here for construction in the southern settlements. Considering the lack of resources and the danger of the heat, there are frequent deaths here and so the materials are very expensive. The Lands of Pain are known in Thalambath however more for the rich tombs that dot the mostly empty and foreboding landscape, built here out of the dark stone.

I think I agreed to a place of tombs somewhere near the smaller volcanos, we did not talk about a spreading over the whole area („dot“). That does not mean, that these tombs have to be build too close together, though you surely can see from one to the next. The Land of Pain was meant as the most inhabitable, I would like to keep this desert deserted! :)

//Picture of Lands of Pain: Ingeborg 16
"The harsh night sky of the Lands of Pain, bathed in red by the fires of the volcanoes."


* The Nirmenith Mountains
The mountains are the northern edge of the Thalambathian state. Mostly uninhabited, there are a few quarries here, particularly Northpoint, which mine iron, gold, and other precious metals, or excavate the ancient dwarven ruins here. Goods found here sent down to Ankhat or Thalambath by a port (which is little more than a couple of wooden docks and tied up ships) at the coast.

One could think, that the mountains are part of your territitory also and the quarries are allover the place, the way your set the words. You can have Northpoint though the most of the time, see above, and I offer you another mine right at their Southern edge, maybe with an underground well, so that you can sustain your people? Find mithril, if you want, and there could be some dwarven tunnels still intact where you could find artifacts, but not too many - the former mountaistock has collapsed and water filled the caves!

Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
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