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Author Topic: What's a fore for?  (Read 8934 times)
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Deklitch Hardin
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« Reply #15 on: 08 December 2009, 07:37:23 »

This is simply my opinion ... take it or leave it as you wish. I'm not going to debate it, discuss it or defend it.

If people want to use decimals, let them use them.

If people don't want to use decimals, let them not use them.

Personally, I don't like using decimals in my entries (which in Australia use the full stop/period, not the comma) and so I'm not going to use them. If I were to use decimals, they would be full stops/periods ... given that's what we teach in schools here ... and I'd hate to tell the children one day to use commas instead which would confuse not only them but me as well. :D

If people want to say three fores instead of a ped, let them use them. If it becomes ridiculous ... something like 225 fores (note, I've got no idea what would be a ridiculous number in this case ... probably smaller than that) ... we might need to tap them on the shoulder and suggest they use a more appropriate measure.

If people want to use 1 ped and not 3 fores, let them do that as well.

Provided the entries are well written, following the templates we have here, are integrated well into the world we are all working together on, show a willingness to integrate the ideas of others and are expressed clearly in terms of grammar, punctuation, expression etc, whether people use decimals, 3 fores instead of a ped, 8 fores instead of two peds two fore or something else along those lines isn't of concern to me.

It would be a shame to drive potential new developers to the site away because of variations of opinion on something like measurement disputes.

This is simply my opinion ... take it or leave it as you wish. I'm not going to debate it, discuss it or defend it.
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #16 on: 08 December 2009, 08:17:33 »

I thought the whole point of the Compendium was to be understandable for the people of Caelereth? If we limit ourselves because of this (and dear gods, do we), that i am perfectly fine with that.

Then again, i have no problems whatsoever thinking in halves, thirds, fourths, fifths, or sixths.. it does get a bit harder after that, of course..

We make limits to ourselves on a nigh-daily basis in real life anyway, what harm can a few more do?

Secondly, i don't think that forcing people to research in ways such as the ceverfire bush example will drive away wonderfull enthusiastic people we so direly need. In fact, it might instead filter out the less desirable participants, by making people work for their entry.
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #17 on: 08 December 2009, 08:18:30 »

I think we're both aiming for a bit of consistency, Dek, hence the debate. I know that it is a bit strange to talk about consistency when the site is so inconsistent as is!  buck I think your opinion highlights one of the underlying issues in the debate: How important is consistency? Perhaps some of us value it more than others? I think one reason why Talia and I are having such a productive discussion here is because we both value consistency in the same way. Perhaps you do not, Dek, and that is a valid stance.

Because you are bringing in what is effectively a new argument, you might offer us some evidence against consistency. To offer my own support of your argument (which I humbly disagree with), the site is already really inconsistent. Is it really worth trying to suddenly make it consistent?

My counter-argument would be that, just because the site has been inconsistent thus far does not mean this inconsistency should continue. To use an analogy: if I always get chocolate ice cream, it doesn't necessarily that I should not buy vanilla. It's that old philosophical argument that just because the sun rose yesterday does not mean that it will rise today.

I would rather have consistency, but I can deal with not having it, too. I would hate having some really good entries referenced less than others, though, simply because an entry is a little less easy to read. As seems to be my theme, I dislike hierarchies and thus inequality. I would rather all entries be on the same playing field, so to speak.
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #18 on: 08 December 2009, 08:26:50 »

Quote
I would hate having some really good entries referenced less than others, though, simply because an entry is a little less easy to read.

Rayne, who would not read a good entry, just because there are fores and not decimals?

I could say it the other way round also:

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I would hate having some really good entries referenced less than others, though, simply because an entry contains some fear inflicting memories concerning decimals!.

 lol
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #19 on: 08 December 2009, 08:31:15 »

Rayne, who would not read a good entry, just because there are fores and not decimals?

Oh! Read is slightly different from reference. You must read an entry to reference it, but if you read it, you won't necessarily reference it.

Quote
I would hate having some really good entries referenced less than others, though, simply because an entry contains some fear inflicting memories concerning decimals!.

 rolling

Touche!
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Deklitch Hardin
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« Reply #20 on: 08 December 2009, 10:13:26 »

I'll just repeat again what I said previously ...

This is simply my opinion ... take it or leave it as you wish. I'm not going to debate it, discuss it or defend it.

However, PLEASE don't attempt to put words in my mouth or motivations to what I say.

Thank you :)
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #21 on: 08 December 2009, 10:20:14 »

However, PLEASE don't attempt to put words in my mouth or motivations to what I say.

Did I do this?
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #22 on: 08 December 2009, 16:04:03 »

Again, 1,7 peds against 1ped, 7 handspans.

I did not think of this yet, and I can't proof it of course, you just have to believe me...

The discussion was - what would people understand and use, 1,7 peds, or 1ped 7 handspans, ordinary people, though educated, otherwise they would not know how to read.

Your young highschool kids might find it easier to use 1,7 meter (due to your short attention span ;) ), but, when we build our house, my craftsmen rarely used decimals, the measurements on their notepad were often no decimals, but

3m 60cm x 7m 70cm (Bad)
5m 20cm x 2m 20cm (Gang)

etc.

When I did some tailoring recently, I used cm only

120cm x 80cm
110cm x 30cm

So, what will we do now?

Using both is not really an option for me, I see decimals as a foreign body in my entries.




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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #23 on: 09 December 2009, 03:16:04 »

Sorry.  Grumpy.  Sick.

This is one of the most inane arguemen ts we have had n a long time.  If this were Remoan, there would be polls debating suspension by now.

Compatibility.  Yes, the site has inconsistencies.  So?  Most of these are in older entries.  Should they ever be redone, then those troubles could be fixed.  However, just because something was done in the past before a consensus was reached, does not give grounds for continuing it in the present.  Every change in policy does not need to be retroactive, and have a team of compendumists going back looking for entries to change.

Teamwork.  What I see this boiling down to is teamwork.  Anyone that would cause this type of disruption over such a minor point (pun non intentional) in my opinion, is not following the basic premise of teamwork.  Rayne, I do not know you, however, I read over 200 posts of yours prior to your reappearance a short time ago.  Your spirit back then was far more conducive to a team environment, and your rancor was non existant.  I'm not sure what the difference is between then and now that you would put your reputation as one of the best and brightest (for you have many fans, including myself, for in my research your posts were always there, even before I read your last 200 posts, which I did to get a sense of who you were after this decimal discussion began) but I think it is far below you to continue on this tangent.  You are doing nothing but adding to the fracture of a team that has had its share of disruptions, lately.  Over a decimal.  Not the world view you might have, as opposed to the world view of others, which debate should be encouraged, but a decimal.  (.)   That point right there.  Such a trivial thing to have such debate over.

Unfortunately, it has now become a symbol of teamwork.  And in my opinion, someone who demands that they should get special treatment over the consensus of the group, is one that does not play well with others.  And that is a sad state, for like I said, you are considered one of the best and brightest.  Your energies and talent are needed, and wanted, far more in contributions than the debate over decimals.  I hope that you see that. :)

Nothing I have said was meant as personal, so I beg that you do not take it as such.  Just my observations, and my feelings of sadness from someone who has admired your work in the past, and has friends who also look up to you in admiration.


PS, go ahead and Neg me folks.  I won't whine in protest. :P
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #24 on: 09 December 2009, 03:52:56 »

Alt, I would highly recommend that you don't post in discussions like this without 1) waiting until your grumpy mood has passed and 2) doing a little more research so that you have some concrete evidence behind your conjectures and to avoid bringing up things that have already been discussed.

Now! To your arguments.  pet

Compatibility.  Yes, the site has inconsistencies.  So?  Most of these are in older entries.  Should they ever be redone, then those troubles could be fixed.  However, just because something was done in the past before a consensus was reached, does not give grounds for continuing it in the present.  Every change in policy does not need to be retroactive, and have a team of compendumists going back looking for entries to change.

I have already brought up and responded to this argument (hence my advice). This is why it is good to do a bit of research, or at least read the other posts in the thread in which you are replying! You don't want to bring up an argument that has already been brought up and addressed. If you want to talk about consistency vs. inconsistency, please bring up a new point to discuss, or respond directly to my counter-argument. The discussion will be much more productive this way!

Quote
You are doing nothing but adding to the fracture of a team that has had its share of disruptions, lately.

I would like to add that almost everyone who has participated in this decimal debate--Talia, Dek, Rookie, Fox, myself--are working very closely on the Ximax Academy, a project that requires a great deal of teamwork. This, again, goes to my second piece of advice. Please do your research before you launch insults like this at me. If you have evidence to show how the team is breaking apart because of me, show me, but do not make unjustified claims like this one.

Quote
Unfortunately, it has now become a symbol of teamwork.  And in my opinion, someone who demands that they should get special treatment over the consensus of the group, is one that does not play well with others.  And that is a sad state, for like I said, you are considered one of the best and brightest.  Your energies and talent are needed, and wanted, far more in contributions than the debate over decimals.  I hope that you see that. :)

I'm going to take apart this argument a little, if you don't mind, as part of a point. You say that the decimal point has become a symbol of teamwork. This is your opinion. In my view, the fact that you and I are addressing one another, the fact that we are communicating even though we disagree, is a symbol of teamwork. Because we both, perhaps, conceive of teamwork in different ways, we disagree on this point.

I am not demanding special treatment over anyone else. Artimidor has already told me that he would accept my Drakelet entry, decimals or no. (Again we see where research may have come in handy). The fact that I am here, the fact that Talia and I can disagree and debate and also laugh and poke fun of one another, the fact that we are NOT making personal attacks and that we show RESPECT and CAMARADERIE despite our disagreement shows that we are truly teammates working toward a common love of the Dream and each other. What you have done here, particularly by making attacks at my person instead of my argument, and basing those attacks upon unjustified assumptions, shows that you do not respect me as part of the team.

I would thus ask you to not reconsider your opinions--to your opinions you are free to believe whatever you like--but rather to reconsider your approach.

Quote
Nothing I have said was meant as personal, so I beg that you do not take it as such.  Just my observations, and my feelings of sadness from someone who has admired your work in the past, and has friends who also look up to you in admiration.

Personal attacks are attacks on people's person. You have attacked my person. Thus, what you have said here is somewhat analogous to stabbing someone and then saying "I mean you no harm." I do take offense, but I will not respond in kind. I will not attack your person, as you have done to me. I will not make unjustified claims about what how you've done here does or does not help the Dream. However, I will advise you to think a little more about what kind of arguments you are making and how they are justified.

And I also don't give negative aura.  :P
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #25 on: 09 December 2009, 04:19:38 »

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Alt, I would highly recommend that you don't post in discussions like this without 1) waiting until your grumpy mood has passed and 2) doing a little more research so that you have some concrete evidence behind your conjectures and to avoid bringing up things that have already been discussed.
You are most likely dead on with that statement.  But I haven't postred anything of late, and this fired me up more than anything else.  buck  I'm usually much better at phrasing my opposition to things much better than when I'm sick.  My apologies.

Quote
You are doing nothing but adding to the fracture of a team that has had its share of disruptions, lately
.  Perhaps an IMO would have been appropriate here, for it was simply that, my opinion, not a statement of fact.  But, I still hold true to this.  The fact that you are working with them on other Team projects does not negate this.  Talia, Dek, Rookie, Fox and you, Rayne, are excellent contributors, and I'm sure that you will construct a wonderful entry together.

Quote
The fact that I am here, the fact that Talia and I can disagree and debate and also laugh and poke fun of one another, the fact that we are NOT making personal attacks and that we show RESPECT and CAMARADERIE despite our disagreement shows that we are truly teammates working toward a common love of the Dream and each other.
We can definitely find common ground here, for I treasure Talia for that aspect as well.  She is brutally honest, and I find that refreshing because she won't let me cut corners despite our mutual friendship.  I do not want her to give me a pass because it would be nicer or simpler.  But, that is what I think you want with the decimal.  Of course I could (and I'm sure you will tell me :P) be wrong.

As to the personal, I stated more than once that I am a fan, and admire you.  I simply think that on this issue, you are wrong.  That is not personal.  if it sounded otherwise, I again apologise. :)

I simply want you to be remembered for more than this.  IE:

Rayne; oh yeah, she wrote that wonderful Drakelet entry.
not
Rayne; of yeah, she's the one that demands to use decimals.

T'would be a shame.

If you wish, maybe we should continue his via PM, so as to not distract the board from weightier matters.  Nothing good comes from public arguements.  I promise not to be petty.  Unless you Neg me Hahaha... just joking.. I try to be nice, even during debates. :D
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #26 on: 09 December 2009, 04:27:00 »

Talia, Dek, Rookie, Fox and you, Rayne, are excellent contributors, and I'm sure that you will construct a wonderful entry together.

AND Azhira.  ;)

Quote from: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
PS, go ahead and Neg me folks.  I won't whine in protest

Ouch. I felt this one.  buck
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #27 on: 09 December 2009, 04:29:57 »

Sorry, Azhira, I was just going by the list Rayne gave.   rolleyes  If you are part of it, then yes, you are wonderful contributor as well. thumbup

hug  Was meaning more someone else, but I apologise if I touched your nerve. heart
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #28 on: 09 December 2009, 04:35:45 »

Aura +1 for Alt, for having more nerve (or grumpyness) than me and being the second person to make the Remaom connection. I stand by what the Remusian said. Go Alt.
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #29 on: 09 December 2009, 04:50:40 »

.  Perhaps an IMO would have been appropriate here, for it was simply that, my opinion, not a statement of fact.

Do you have evidence to support your opinion?


Quote
But, I still hold true to this.  The fact that you are working with them on other Team projects does not negate this.

So is your argument that I both work against the team and for it?


Quote
I do not want her to give me a pass because it would be nicer or simpler.  But, that is what I think you want with the decimal.  Of course I could (and I'm sure you will tell me :P) be wrong.

On what grounds would you make this assertion? What have I done or said that has communicated to you that I tend to try to make things easier or simpler for myself?  :P

Quote
As to the personal, I stated more than once that I am a fan, and admire you.  I simply think that on this issue, you are wrong.  That is not personal.  if it sounded otherwise, I again apologise. :)

When you attack someone's character, especially when you don't provide evidence for it, you make it in to a personal attack, as we generally view personal attacks. In order to avoid this, it is best to add concrete evidence behind your assertions, or to avoid attacks on character. Does this make sense?

Quote
I simply want you to be remembered for more than this.  IE:

Rayne; oh yeah, she wrote that wonderful Drakelet entry.
not
Rayne; of yeah, she's the one that demands to use decimals.

T'would be a shame.

I am not here to make a good name for myself. I am not here to become some sort of super-star. I seek neither to be a hero nor to be an enemy. I am simply here to build a Dream with a team of brilliant individuals.

Quote
If you wish, maybe we should continue his via PM, so as to not distract the board from weightier matters.  Nothing good comes from public arguements.  I promise not to be petty.  Unless you Neg me Hahaha... just joking.. I try to be nice, even during debates. :D

If you wish to discuss more, I will gladly talk to you in PM! I feel there is a lot of mis-communication between us, and I would be curious to know from where you derive your opinions and conjectures.
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