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Author Topic: What's a fore for?  (Read 8933 times)
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #30 on: 09 December 2009, 05:05:26 »

Quote
Quote
Perhaps an IMO would have been appropriate here, for it was simply that, my opinion, not a statement of fact.

Do you have evidence to support your opinion?

Pfft... facts!!  Nothing ruins a good debate more than facts.  I hate the colour purple.  (The colour, not the book or movie :P)  I have no facts to back up my position.  Just when I look at that colour, a feeling of ickiness comes over me.  That's how I feel about the arguement.  Not the people or positions expressed therein, only the arguement itself.  And I'm unsure why anyone would belabour such a minor thing to conform to.

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I am not here to make a good name for myself.
You already have one. :D
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #31 on: 09 December 2009, 05:10:36 »

Aura +1 for Alt, for having more nerve (or grumpyness) than me and being the second person to make the Remaom connection. I stand by what the Remusian said. Go Alt.

That's our ol' Remusian! Tough, gruff and takes crap from no one! Says what no one else will say and stands by it. Get outta the way! Tremble as the Ice Man puts his foot down!

*swoons*

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« Reply #32 on: 09 December 2009, 05:11:25 »

Pfft... facts!!  Nothing ruins a good debate more than facts.  I hate the colour purple.  (The colour, not the book or movie :P)  I have no facts to back up my position.  Just when I look at that colour, a feeling of ickiness comes over me.  That's how I feel about the arguement.  Not the people or positions expressed therein, only the arguement itself.  And I'm unsure why anyone would belabour such a minor thing to conform to.

OMG...  heart heart heart

You already have one. :D

 jawdrop WHAT?! Oh no! I will have to tarnish it to reach a neutral reputation!! Um... I think Santharian needs a super mega-death ray gun.

BTW: If you can load IRC, we might possibly be able to talk in there.  hug

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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #33 on: 09 December 2009, 05:13:00 »

OK, I'll bite.  Off to IRC I go.  Only because I prefer to be swore at in real time. :)
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Jenna Silverbirch
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« Reply #34 on: 09 December 2009, 23:30:18 »

Hullo, all :)

Oh dear oh dear oh dear- I'm really torn whether it's at all worthwhile or sensible for me to be posting at all, but I simply couldn't keep quiet with all this raging debate. But seeing as things are winding down now I suppose it can't hurt for a small newb of a hobbit to say a little. You see, Alt's right , Ms Avalotus, you do have a name for yourself :D I was absolutely thrilled when I saw you were active again because I have so much respect for you as a developer (and not just becasue you've written all the principle hobbit entries, either ;) ) but because of the sheer quantity, quality and creativity of your work. I desperately don't want to offend you, and I hope I don't by posting,

But to the point: I find it rather interesting that when reading your absolutely lovely Drakelet entry, the use of decimals threw me rather, and took me out of my reading in the same way a too-modern word in a fantasy book, or a historical inaccuracy in a historical drama, would.
Having but six months of developing to my name, ever since I've been around, entries have never used decimals. To me, it looks strange. It only takes a moment to understand the Santharian measurement system, and surely saying 3 peds and 7 handspans is just as concise as saying 3.7 peds.

Now I completely an utterly agree that developers should have freedom. There have to be some uniform points. But if I insisted on referring to a month in my entry as march, and not Awakening Earth, I'd be shot down pretty quickly. I know that a decimal point is a poor thing to compare to a month name, but it's little extras, like the fact we have our own measurements and calender, that really bring this place alive for me. So I'd much rather decimals weren't used at all. To me they evoke science and a kind of scientifical precision not found in Caelerath. Newbs are constantly discouraged from using 'scientific' words all the time, and I personally think that teensy little dot (.) is one such overly scientific thing, regardless of when it began to be used in our own world.
Altario, aura + from me also, for being so darned gutsy. I must say I agree with you.

Sorry for bothering everyone with the needless ramblings of a newbie. Anyway, not exactly a very solid argument, or even an argument at all buck Sorry in advance if I've caused any offence or been unhelpful in any way. Jenna out.  heart
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The poet's eye, in a fine frenzy rolling,
Doth glance from heaven to earth, from earth to heaven;
And as imagination bodies forth
The forms of things unknown, the poet's pen
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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #35 on: 10 December 2009, 09:03:29 »

I have to agree with you, Jenna, it just doesn't "feel" right.  Like watching a production of Hamlet where the actors have forgotten to remove their Rolexes or cell-phones. 
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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #36 on: 10 December 2009, 09:41:57 »

Personally, I'm not sure what stance I can agree with. On the one hand, I think that decimals should exist in Santharia, and I don't see it as being anachronistic considering that decimals existed in RL history at the same general point in time as Santharia is based... and before. Now, I haven't read enough primary medieval/renaissance sources to know whether or not decimals were actually used commonly in writing, or if they were, *how* they were written, but they did exist. Personally, I find ignoring some things just to make the world feel more immersive often makes it less so... changing curse words for instance strike me as always being a censorship play rather than any kind of 'world-appropriate change', when 99.9% of the language remains the same *except* for the curse words (Santharia at least changes more words than just curse words, but most fantasy worlds don't).

On the other hand, I find numerical characters in an entry (whether they be decimals or not) feels unclean. I would prefer one and a half peds over 1.5 peds, just because the former looks cleaner. I also don't feel we need to be super precise in most entries, and that any attempt to do so, whether that be by saying 1.75 peds *or* saying 1 Ped, 2 Fores, 8 Nailsbreadths, 1 Grain to be equally jarring (in fact, the latter is even worse in this case, IMO). I do think keeping measurements vague and referential (as in, comparisons and unclear language) looks neater, and it's just as easy and cleaner to say 'between one and two peds' than 'between 1.2 and 1.8 peds'.


So I'm not sure which I prefer. On the one hand, I think that Santharia must surely have developed a decimal system by now, but I agree that decimals in writing doesn't look good (and neither does putting them in parenthesis). I disagree however that the audience *needs* decimals. The reader doesn't need hard specifics, especially since most decimals written by developers are extrapolations even of themselves. Rough estimates with whole numbers is just as understandable as decimals, and both are likely to be just as inaccurate to the 'true and precise' measurement.

If I were to vote on the poll thread (which I won't be, the poll is too close and one or two votes could easily swing it), I would probably vote no, just because I'd prefer not to see decimals in writing when it can be helped. Voting yes seems like it'd give people the allowance to use them wherever they want, without looking for a better alternative. Even if decimals do exist in Santh (which I think they surely do), I think 'no' encourages people to come up with better descriptions instead of relying on the easiest path.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #37 on: 10 December 2009, 15:43:11 »

Quote Alysse:

Quote
I have to agree with you, Jenna, it just doesn't "feel" right.  Like watching a production of Hamlet where the actors have forgotten to remove their Rolexes or cell-phones. 


*hihi* Yeah, exactly how I feel! Pretty much spot on, Alysse!  cool
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #38 on: 10 December 2009, 18:08:05 »

Fox has a very good argument, which evaded me by now (how could it!, I'm always asking for it): The use of numerical characters is forbidden with a good writing style , at least I have learned it this way. So if I have to say anyway

"The wing of that bird is two fores long."

instead of

"The wing of that bird is 2 fores long."

then it makes only sense, to avoid 1,5 fores as well.

The wing is one and a half fores long.


What I remember out of my head: Numbers up to 20 (twenty) must be written in words, easy ones as hundred and thousand as well, but more complicated like 325 e.g. are allowed to be displayed with numerical characters.

Could we find an agreement on this as well? Would be mostly the task of the commentators to point this out, I suppose, but it could go in the 1x1 as well.   

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Jenna Silverbirch
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« Reply #39 on: 10 December 2009, 18:51:37 »

Fox- excellent argument. It's given me an idea. If decimals are not commonly used, perhaps basic fractions are? Saying 'around one and a three-quarter peds' instead of 1.75 peds is very clear and concise, while not being overly scientifically precise, or spoiling the flavour of an entry.
That could be a good compromise if this stalemate in the debate continues.

EDIT: I've just seen that Alysse has had the same idea over on the poll thread. So perhaps fractions could be commonly used?
« Last Edit: 10 December 2009, 18:53:29 by Jenna Silverbirch » Logged

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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #40 on: 10 December 2009, 19:07:05 »

I think we're already using 'half' and 'quarter' fractions, as well as putting all but exeedingly long numbers in words (one, not 1, ten, not 10, but 1264, instead of one-thousand, two-hundred and sixty-four, depending on context.)

That is, in the herbarium i tend to correct such things when checking an entry.
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Avrah Kehabhra

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« Reply #41 on: 12 December 2009, 05:55:57 »

Talia is correct that one should not use numerals when writing but instead write out the number i.e. two instead of 2. How often have you read a novel that used numerals in place of written out numbers?
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #42 on: 13 December 2009, 02:20:06 »

I have to agree with you, Jenna, it just doesn't "feel" right.  Like watching a production of Hamlet where the actors have forgotten to remove their Rolexes or cell-phones. 

I have seen a production of Hamlet set in the 1800s, and Love's Labour's Lost set in the 21st century. They were absolutely brilliant productions. It's all about context and consistency, both which are up for debate.
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Jenna Silverbirch
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« Reply #43 on: 13 December 2009, 02:45:06 »

nod Very very true, Ms Avalotus. I love it when things are reinvented, or looked at from a different perspective. Shakespeare- who I adore- can be reinvented endlessly. Myself and Alysse's point was definitely about context, though. In the the context of the world of santharia and calereth, I find that decimals jar, for the reasons I gave above. But then, that's just my opinion :)
« Last Edit: 13 December 2009, 02:48:14 by Jenna Silverbirch » Logged

The poet's eye, in a fine frenzy rolling,
Doth glance from heaven to earth, from earth to heaven;
And as imagination bodies forth
The forms of things unknown, the poet's pen
Turns them to shapes, and gives to airy nothing
A local habitation and a name.
-William Shakespeare, A Midsummer Night's Dream
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