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Author Topic: City of Ximax: Discussion  (Read 65233 times)
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Deklitch Hardin
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« Reply #225 on: 30 March 2011, 15:40:43 »

Rayne,

I would be more than happy to give ownership of the Market Square over to Judith.

I kind of read your bit about the walls to suggest that there were no walls in Ximax seperating burroughs or parts of burroughs. I was just saying that within the Middleton Burrough, there was a walled part of it, where the people who lived there used to keep the 'riff raff' of Ximax (ie the lower classes) away from their homes.

I wasn't sure if that needed to be said there or not, I just wanted to mention it in case it needed to be.

Dek
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« Reply #226 on: 30 March 2011, 17:17:38 »

Oh, Dek, didn't mean to step on your turf or take anything away!  You are a great writer, and I always enjoy your style.  Are you sure you've got enough to do otherwise if you truly do want to give me the Market Square?  I'd love to be just a little part of this project....
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« Reply #227 on: 30 March 2011, 18:13:48 »

Yes, Judy, I've got enough to do :)

You didn't step on my turf at all ... thanks for your concerns though. :)

Dek
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #228 on: 30 March 2011, 20:02:52 »

@Rayne: You know, I love you and this discussion is just happening on the surface of our relation! heart



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Xarl and Intellectual Property:
Ximax Academy and the City of Ximax, in name, are not Xarl's intellectual property. The concept of a magical school and/or magical city are not new concepts, and certainly not Xarl's concepts. He borrowed the concepts and took his own twist on them. Now we are doing the same. However, please don't confused what we're doing here as stealing Xarl's intellectual property: legally and rhetorically, that's not what's happening.

In fact, many of your suggestions, Talia, represents a higher level of legal violation: you are suggesting we take his ideas, effectively 'stealing' his intellectual property, and putting it into a entry where they become dissipated into the writings of others, and where what ideas are his and what ideas are others are drowned in a flood of words and descriptions. I will be happy to discuss this with you, but I will say that this is not the argument you want to make in order to convince me to use Xarl's ideas.

Rayne, if you look at my post reply #217, then you can clearly see, that there I‘m not  „ suggesting we take his ideas, effectively 'stealing' his intellectual property, and putting it into a entry where they become dissipated into the writings of others, and where what ideas are his and what ideas are others are drowned in a flood of words and descriptions“, but I clearly labeled, what is from him, and what not.

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"Because of Xarl":
Talia, you represent a point of view that values conservation, tradition, and respect for those who have come before. I want to adhere to those values, but mine are a little bit different. I value the idea, because if an idea is really good, then it will stay.

For me, that is not enough. For anybody can say - as we did - this was not the greatest idea, let‘s change it.
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As a young developer, I thought the world of Xarl--because he was clever and witty and an expert on magic. However, many of his ideas did not have staying power. I respect him for what he did, but I will not honor his memory by tailoring an entry to ideas that weren't phenomenal. The strength of these projects--where I grab a dozen people and say, "Please write this for me!"--is the collaboration and the ideas. Because no one will be able to write the water tower as well as Fox, and no one is more qualified to write about the House of Music and the Recreational Fields than Dek, and no one could possibly provide a more accurate description of Undercity than Azhira. I have read the work of all of them, and I know what they're good at: their ideas have staying power.

I agree with you that some things should be kept, because Santharia is not a sterile world, whether you refer to the fantasy kingdom or the development board. The progression of both has been intimately intertwined, and it should make sense that the old city should be, in some shape or form, Xarl's city, felled by progress and new, greater ideas.

So far, before my meddling with this submission, I did not see this old city conserved in any way.


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I value tradition and ancestors (if you wish to call them such), but I have made my stance clear:
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I do not care how long you have been at Santharia, how much you know about Santharia or Santharian magic, or whether or not you have completed you master work; the only things of value to me are your ideas, opinions, and creativity.
Namely, I do not care who you are; I care what you can bring to this project, and the world as a whole.
That has not really something to do with our problem, of course anybody can contribute.

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The Academy:
Eleven towers made no sense--magically, logically, cosmologically, aesthetically. I am exceedingly grateful we were not content with eleven towers.
I disagree. I regret to have changed this. There would have been a way around it also, and if it would have been that of old - elven towers - new 12. I don‘t want to discuss here, why eleven towers make less sense magically, logically, cosmologically, aesthetically. That is your opinion, and even if it would be this way, it is not enough reason to change the work and ideas of somebody else.  There is no NEED to it.

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Overall, I believe the Academy is better for our discontent. I occasionally go back through old entries, and the Academy of Ximax continues to be an entry I take immense pride in, because it won the approval of so many people. That project took years--years of discussions with you, Mina, Fox, Silfer, Kikhku, Azhira, Deklitch, Judith, Coren, Decipher, Rookie, and a host of others. We both went through the entire entry with a fine-tooth comb, as did Fox. The greatest and more talented developers contributed to that project, and the end result is the collective effort of all of them.

An entry is not great because it is old. It is not great because its writer is old. An entry is great because the ideas and style are great. It is great because, if you erased the date and byline, it would still be great. I believe the Academy entry is one of those entries.

It is unfinished, history is missing. Others might not find it as great as you do.  I‘m very glad that you took up the task to get it done and think it is a good entry, but it could be more coloured and good to read , if e.g.  the single parts were not so restricted in length. I know, that I was not the only one, who would have liked to be able to write more. I know, you argue against verbosity, I can‘t follow you there. Maybe the structure would need to be different, with internal links to each part.  

To your description, Rayne
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It destroyed the inner city and outer city almost entirely, leaving only one a piece of Tanaman, to the east, still intact. Strangely, almost no one was hurt, but the buildings were almost entirely blown away.

I think it makes more sense, if Hallowhall was destroyed also and rebuild (see my reasons in post 217)
I quote it here:

As the citizens of Ximax were afraid, that the blasted grounds where magical tainted through the explosions, most parts were abandoned, with the exception of the borough of Hallowhall, a district of the former Tanaman, which was too close to the gates of the academy to be given up. The inner older inner city was transformed to recreation grounds for the magical academy. (Sharp tongues rumour, that this explosion was intentional, just got out of hands). From then on, Hallowhall became the borough which served the academical needs most, including the newly erected „Wasted Wizard“ , which was partly rebuilt with what could be salvaged from the ruins, as was “Valgure's Magical Emporium”, two establishments, obviously extremely important to the students of Ximax.

There needs to be a reason, why no part of the old city was rebuilt except Hallowhall. People tend to build where their old houses were.

That no one was hurt, is entirely unbelievable. I would propose, that at least 10% of the citizens were killed and a lot of others hurt. We have so many wars, with so many deaths, it is unrealistic, to avoid them here.



@Mina: There were several wars after that.

What might be interesting for Ximax, not sure though, if I interpreted the stuff correctly. :

After the explosion, it was occupied by the Royalist, which has been the enemy. They might not have done a lot for Ximax.
Around 1500 a.S. Civil war in Santharia

1504:  a general from the north seizes the power (that would be a drawback for the Royalists),

1507: Grothunc‘s father returns to Ximax, so it must have been relatively peaceful again.



@Ath: Thanks for explaining what I meant with clearer words!

@Rayne: Don‘t feel offended, but your reaction to Ath was too strong, I don‘t see, that he was all that you accused him to be. He just did not agree with you ;)



That said, I would propose following:

Contact Xarl, if possible. That would be your task as the organisator of this piece. Get his blessings for it, and all will be ok. If he doesn‘t answer, take it onto your conscience to abolish things which, in my opinion, should not so easily abolished. (Arguments like it is better, nicer, makes more sense are not really arguments, they show just a different opinion)

At some point however we should discuss that issue and come to an agreement. Which will be no easy thing, for I‘m horrified that one day somebody might deal with my entries as we did with Xarl‘s.


I need to abandon this discussion now, my father is again in hospital and I don‘t know, how much time I have to discuss things .

@Rayne  hug
« Last Edit: 30 March 2011, 20:05:04 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #229 on: 31 March 2011, 08:43:59 »

Oooh, excited to have a market to do!  Rayne and Dek, thanks for your encouragement.  I really need to get back into writing and description (and of course I will be tempted to submit an illustration along with it), so this will be a nice little tidbit to get my creativity off the ground again.   

Questions I need to ask myself before starting (though if you know off the top of your head feel free to let me know!):    Is there any extant description, reference, or rules I need to incorporate?  Is the 'original' entry the only place I should start?  Does it need to integrate major roads, and if so, are there any?  Where is the market square located, roughly?  Does it incorporate all major market items, or just produce/foodstuffs?   (starts making mental notes)
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #230 on: 31 March 2011, 12:50:22 »

@Judith: Besides the old entry, I do not believe there are any extant descriptions anywhere. Mina was the first to suggest a market square, which would lie at the center of the city, in the middle of the inner borough (Mina provides a good representation in a photoshop picture he created and posted way back on page 10, at the very bottom).

My suggestion to his:
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e) Center of the City: I've been thinking about this, too. Perhaps we can make a list of possibilities for the center-of-the-city. I like the Market Square idea, though I was also thinking some sort of clock tower might be neat, too (would this be too modern?--I'm thinking of all the clock-makers we have in the city). Or perhaps a statue of Ximan Xuran? Depending on the size, we could have both: A statue/clock tower surrounded by a market place. What do you think?

His response:
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There's probably enough space, unless it's a huge tower.  I think Ximax isn't that small.  Perhaps a six-sided clock tower (since the city looks like it's going to be more or less hexagonal) surrounded by statues of important historical figures?  Or maybe images of those historical figures carved into the sides of the tower.  A very quick check suggests the clock tower probably won't be too modern for the time period we're aiming at; apparently the Moscow Kremlin got a clock installed in one of its towers sometime during 1491-1585. 

However, you can feel free to go in any direction you choose, Judith. Whatever moves you.

As for roads, the only roads I believe have thus far been mentioned were provided by Valan: "The Wasted Wizard, located twixt Shard Street and Xazure Lane in Hallowhall, was purportedly built on the original campsite of the founders of the city, a claim several rival establishments dispute quite hotly." However, these streets are in Hallowhall, which is a bit far from the center of the city. You can feel free to make up street names, though having them be a bit "magical" certainly wouldn't hurt.

As for products, I assume just about everything would be sold--not just foodstuffs, but flowers, furs, clothes, perfumes, etc. You would probably know better than I would. As far as I see it, though, there would be no restrictions.

Let me know if there's any other information I can get for you. I am always happy to help! And thank you, Judith, for helping out. I'm glad to have you on board.  ;)


@Deklitch: Thank you, Dek. hug

Walls: I am glad you brought this up, as I had forgotten. I think the wall thing might be good to mention, but maybe not in the large description but rather the description of the inner borough. What are your thoughts? I could go either way.


@Talia: There is no discussion, argument, or disagreement that could ever change my friendship with you, Talia.  heart You know that.


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Rayne, if you look at my post reply #217, then you can clearly see, that there I‘m not  „ suggesting we take his ideas, effectively 'stealing' his intellectual property, and putting it into a entry where they become dissipated into the writings of others, and where what ideas are his and what ideas are others are drowned in a flood of words and descriptions“, but I clearly labeled, what is from him, and what not.

I feel as though perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly. What of Xarl's do you want to keep, and how would you like those pieces presented? How should they be integrated? I need your help here, because I am not able to understand your vision.


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For me, that is not enough. For anybody can say - as we did - this was not the greatest idea, let‘s change it.

You're right; anyone can say "let's change it," which is why, when I approached this project--and the Academy--I did not do it alone. Keep in mind that the Academy, too, replaced an older entry, one we changed a great deal. There are outliers everywhere who will criticize this idea and that idea--but at least a dozen people participated on that project. At least a dozen people felt strongly enough that the entry should be updated to participate in the creation of something new.

This project also relies on a consensus, which is why I am asking you now: what ideas are worth keeping? What is still good and still accurate? We disagree on many things, Talia, but you have a good eye, and if there are some ideas you believe are worth keeping, I want to try to keep them.


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So far, before my meddling with this submission, I did not see this old city conserved in any way.

You're right. It did not occur to me that Xarl's old city could be the city destroyed by the explosion. To be honest, I did not consider really describing the old city, but you suggested this, and I believe it was a very good idea, which is why I have incorporated it. I am glad you have meddled, because your meddling, I feel, has helped create a better entry.


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That has not really something to do with our problem, of course anybody can contribute.

It supports my philosophy of ideas over thinkers. I don't care who you are or where you come from--or if you are Xarl--I care what ideas you bring to the table. I apologize that I did not make that relationship clear.


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I disagree. I regret to have changed this. There would have been a way around it also, and if it would have been that of old - elven towers - new 12. I don‘t want to discuss here, why eleven towers make less sense magically, logically, cosmologically, aesthetically. That is your opinion, and even if it would be this way, it is not enough reason to change the work and ideas of somebody else.  There is no NEED to it.

I believe there is a need, and that twelve makes more sense magically, logically, cosmologically, and aesthetically is not opinion, but can rather be backed up with fact and reason. We can discuss this somewhere else if you like, or simply agree to disagree. I have no regrets.


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It is unfinished, history is missing. Others might not find it as great as you do.  I‘m very glad that you took up the task to get it done and think it is a good entry, but it could be more coloured and good to read , if e.g.  the single parts were not so restricted in length. I know, that I was not the only one, who would have liked to be able to write more. I know, you argue against verbosity, I can‘t follow you there. Maybe the structure would need to be different, with internal links to each part. 

I have noticed the history. It is something I would like to put together once Ximax is complete, as the two have an intertwined history. Maybe others do not find it as great, but I believe that it is, because it represents of microcosm of Santharia, and a representation of what Santharia is: an intricate, massively creative, and innately collaborative project.

I am glad the single sections are short in the entry. As you will remember, I encouraged people to take their longer descriptions to sculpt out individual entries (i.e. for each tower or building). I still do. If you wish to do this with any part of the entry, Talia, you are welcome to. Because these pieces exist on a website, they can all be linked.


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I think it makes more sense, if Hallowhall was destroyed also and rebuild (see my reasons in post 217)
I quote it here:

As the citizens of Ximax were afraid, that the blasted grounds where magical tainted through the explosions, most parts were abandoned, with the exception of the borough of Hallowhall, a district of the former Tanaman, which was too close to the gates of the academy to be given up. The inner older inner city was transformed to recreation grounds for the magical academy. (Sharp tongues rumour, that this explosion was intentional, just got out of hands). From then on, Hallowhall became the borough which served the academical needs most, including the newly erected „Wasted Wizard“ , which was partly rebuilt with what could be salvaged from the ruins, as was “Valgure's Magical Emporium”, two establishments, obviously extremely important to the students of Ximax.

Forgive me, Talia, but I am still unable to understand how you are envisioning the explosion. Hallowhall was on the fringes of the old city--both Feldstone and Hallowhall were. Hallowhall was never close to the Academy. Even in the Old City, Hallowhall was part of the Outer City, separated from the Academy by at least the old inner borough and probably a bit of the old outer borough. The explosion occurred and Hallowhall (and Feldstone) was left standing.


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There needs to be a reason, why no part of the old city was rebuilt except Hallowhall. People tend to build where their old houses were.

This is discussed in the Description.


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That no one was hurt, is entirely unbelievable. I would propose, that at least 10% of the citizens were killed and a lot of others hurt. We have so many wars, with so many deaths, it is unrealistic, to avoid them here.

First too realistic, then to magical. I can never keep you satisfied, Talia! The lack of deaths was meant to add to the strangeness of the explosion, but this really doesn't mean too much to me. If you want 10% of the citizenry to die, then consider them gone. Never say I didn't kill for your approval.  :P


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@Rayne: Don‘t feel offended, but your reaction to Ath was too strong, I don‘t see, that he was all that you accused him to be. He just did not agree with you ;)

You do not agree with me, Talia, but you convey your discontent more respectfully and politely. I have long said that anger, frustration, impatience, etc. are no reason not to treat others with respect. I know language--my field of study for longer than higher education has schooled me--and am cognizant of the way I and others use language. I stand by my assessment and my words. If you would like me to supply you with an analysis of Ath's letter, I will try to accommodate. Just PM me.


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That said, I would propose following:

Contact Xarl, if possible. That would be your task as the organisator of this piece. Get his blessings for it, and all will be ok. If he doesn‘t answer, take it onto your conscience to abolish things which, in my opinion, should not so easily abolished. (Arguments like it is better, nicer, makes more sense are not really arguments, they show just a different opinion)

I have contacted Xarl, and am waiting for a reply. And I believe my arguments are more along the lines of what does and does not make sense in the context of the greater world. However, this does not seem like a productive argument to have at this point.


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At some point however we should discuss that issue and come to an agreement. Which will be no easy thing, for I‘m horrified that one day somebody might deal with my entries as we did with Xarl‘s.

I am excited that one day a younger, brighter, more creative individual will stumble across my entries and say, "This is a start, but I think I can make something better." And then will. When I am gone, let the new generation of developers inherit this world. The Dream, after all, is for dreamers.


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I need to abandon this discussion now, my father is again in hospital and I don‘t know, how much time I have to discuss things .

I am sorry to hear your father is not well. I hope he recovers!  hug

And as always, Talia:  heart
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« Reply #231 on: 31 March 2011, 15:52:00 »

Oh, i'm distraught, now my father has broken a vertebra.  :( He was in hospital for paintreatment a few weeks ago and all went well, they reduced the painkillers and he was more himself again, able to speak clearly etc, and now it starts again. I hope, they won't be cautious with more new and additional painkillers.


@ Judy: I always imagined the main road running from the gates directly to the entrance of the academy, I think this is the axis of all trade and a very old road. It could divide itself around a statue of the square though.

An option for a true market square would be , to place it at another junction of any two (or three) roads, so that it could be entirely filled with booths. Then the big square in the middle of the town could be used in more ways. Or the market is only once a year, or twice, etc. What about this?

You have certainly already found the pic Rayne posted.

@Rayne: I'll try to picture that explosion thing again to illustrate why I think, that, if we assume a concentric explosion, only Hallowhall was destroyed.

Btw, I have edited the cemetery and added the Remnants in the same space!
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« Reply #232 on: 31 March 2011, 16:15:51 »

Working on mapping this out, as there doesn't seem to be a master map to allow me to picture boroughs, streets, gates, and the market in their relative configurations.... and it seems that there is no mention of a river.

I say this because although the entry so far alludes to 'aquifers' as a source of water, there is no realistic way that a large city can exist without a water supply, which in medieval and renaissance times would have meant,  pretty much, a river.  All the great capitals of Terra are built on or by rivers.  They provide transportation, sewage, and, of course, water.     The existence of 'Tanner's Bend' implies a river - even a small one.  

May I suggest, without violating anyone's vision, that a river does indeed run through, or next to Ximax?  I can imagine a small length of water running from the mountains in the Northwest, coming down past the Underside borough and making a large curve (hence 'bend')  to run off to the east by the Gate in Gateside.  

Simple map - please let me know if I've got anything such as orientation wrong!


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« Last Edit: 31 March 2011, 16:17:38 by Bard Judith » Logged

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« Reply #233 on: 31 March 2011, 16:38:41 »

Ah great, Judy, I was just about to do a map also (will stop now), and maybe I found the problem I had which boroughs suffered under the explosion.. will post it soon!

I have problems with your directions (north, west..) though.



EDIT:

I assumed, following the description of the academy on the first page here, that the academy is located to the southwest of the city itself.

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Originally, the Academy was located at the center of the city, protected by the fortress-like buildings of the old Inner City.  This changed following the 1482 a.s. incident, which saw most of the old Inner City destroyed or damaged beyond repair and lead to the city being rebuilt a safe distance from the Academy.  Now, the Academy is no longer located within the city proper, but instead a few minutes' walk southwest of Hallowhall borough - close enough to be easily accessible should one need to do so, but far enough for the rest of the city to avoid being damaged any potential magical accidents again.  


Rayne, if you now look at the picture, you will see, that, if we assume a centric explosion, only Hallowhall , a part of the old Tanaman is destroyed, not so Feldstone (a newer borough). If we want to have Feldstone destroyed also, we need to let the annexing Royalist do the job, as I mentioned above already.

If the sketch is still unclear, please ask.

The explosion has hit the inner city very hard, but the outer flattened also (that big circle), though the amount of destruction depends a bit on how the houses were built (see my remnants part).
« Last Edit: 31 March 2011, 17:01:55 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #234 on: 31 March 2011, 17:09:08 »

Well, I'm pretty sure the peninsula has rivers.  I intend the main river to be some distance to the north of Ximax, but I see no reason why there couldn't be at least one tributary that goes quite close to the city itself.  I had been wondering if Ximax would need aqueducts, but this is makes things much simpler.   :)

As for orientation, I based it on the one Rayne drew here, and mostly assumed it had the typical north = up orientation, which would put Borough 1 at the north.  I don't know if that's how the others saw it though. 

(By the way, what font did you use?  It looks pretty nice.  )

Edit: Does the old Outer City have to be circular?  Perhaps it was distorted in a way that would let it overlap both boroughs to a large extent?  Might be doable by somehow twisting the main road that leads out of Ximax. 

Edit again:  Talia, where did you get the information on the wars from?  I think I need to have a look at it again. 
« Last Edit: 31 March 2011, 17:32:50 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #235 on: 31 March 2011, 19:28:50 »

Oh good.   I was rather worried about that water supply issue!  If you like the tributary idea, this seems like a reasonable place to put it, because then you have docks next to the low-life borough, all the stinky/dirty/bluesmock occupations that need water in that area, a spot outside (just) the city for your tanners and perhaps butchers, the water access and the road access near each other (also a logical way for a city to develop - roads often follow the river valleys or banks), and so on.

I think the font is 'Harrington' - installed on my office computer but not at home!  ( I'd very much like to do a vintage-style city map that matches our other ones, once the overall look/design of Ximax is approved. )  Orientation was a guess based on the (inconsistent) descriptions of each borough (not all the inner boroughs can be north of the outer ones, for example!)  :)  Hard to do without a master map.
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« Reply #236 on: 31 March 2011, 19:43:54 »

There is mainly the cemetery.... would that tributary be between the city and the cemetery? Maybe a bit farther away? More to the southeast of the cemetery?
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« Reply #237 on: 31 March 2011, 23:22:16 »

I think the problem with orientation is mainly with Aferburgh.  The rest of the boroughs seem to fit together alright.  I made a map showing roughly what I meant about a non-circular Outer City.  Don't know how realistic the shape is though; I didn't reference anything when making it. 

Where exactly is the cemetery located, and how large is it?  All I know is that it's next to Underside.  If there isn't enough space for both it and a river, maybe the river can be put somewhere else instead? 
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« Reply #238 on: 01 April 2011, 01:12:44 »

 

Where exactly is the cemetery located, and how large is it?  All I know is that it's next to Underside.  If there isn't enough space for both it and a river, maybe the river can be put somewhere else instead? 

Talia is taking over cemetery development so it may not be in the Underside anymore. Although, I still want a cemetery there since it adds to the creepy and dark atmosphere of this seedy and slummy borrow.
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« Reply #239 on: 01 April 2011, 01:31:09 »

I fear the cemetery is not creepy enough for your taste, Azhira. Why are cemeteries creepy? I like them and visit them in every country I'm visiting, in every holiday a graveyard has to be part of the program (at least one!). And it is of course attached to Underside, and all are buried there, except thanes and such high ranking persons. Maybe I do an entry about it, then I make him creepy, but with two paragraphs there is no place for creepiness.
The river could be between Underside and the cemetery, I would have no objections, but if Azhira wants to have it closer, I'm fine with it also.

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@Mina:

I thought the academy would be closer to the rest of the city (a few minutes walk I read in the description above), why would they leave so much space close to the gate without buildings? I think it is different described in the academy itself, when I remember my own part of it right (Ornamental gardens). your map looks like as if an entire new city developed apart from the old city, with a gap in between.

If it is so far away, then Hollowhall is of course not affected.
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