Politics of the North

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[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Okay, here is a thread where us Northern deveopment folks can start hashing out the complex political factions of the north.  Who hates who?  Who trades with who?

Lets have a lively debate, but keep it respectful.  Two of the more outspoken passionate Devers are here, and we have quite strong views.  Let us work towards creative solutions rather than steadfast views.  (Which in my case will not always be easy.)

[Azhira Styralias]

First, let's start with the Antislar and their impact in the North. I still don't have a very clear picture of their culture and role. I remember when they were in the beginning stages of development as the more barbaric step-children of the Remusians...now they seem to be traders far and wide. I also have them as being ancestors to the Kaaer back during SWIII. We need an understanding of the Antislar first.

[Seeker]

Seeker approaches Alt and Azhira as they argue out the finer details of the north and he looks at his hands.

"On the one hand I have done many pictures for Azhira and I do love the Mists.  On the other hand the Ice tribes are so interesting and have lots of cool details worth painting."

As Seeker contemplates who's side to choose he approaches the two as they argue and grabs them both by the back of their heads forcing them together.

  SMOOOOCH!  

As Seeker walks away they resume arguing and he wonders...if these two were the leaders of the tribes in the North would they engage in trade.. for some reason I think not.  

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

I'm good with this.  I want the Antislar people to be more civilized than the barbarian Ice Tribes, so they would be good to use.  Theyhave ready supplies of lumber, so ship building would be more prevelent than the Remusians, who in turn far out do the other Ice Tribes.

This from September 13, 2009.  

In truth, they are the most advanced out of the northern human tribes.  Though, whether that makes them an ally of the Kingdom of Santharia, and thus all the races of good, is still questionable.  Many scholars, and military leaders, still worry that they await the next coming of the shadow.

From my Antislar entry (WIP)

I'm not overly sure where you got the

the more barbaric step-children of the Remusians

from.  I've always wanted them to be more advanced.  They are my Anti-Santharia tribe.  Civilized, but in a brutal, sometimes dark fashion, where everything can't be worked out in a wonderful peaceful way.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Now I gots girl cooties!!! 

[Azhira Styralias]

More civilized, but also barbaric. Explorers, but also cannibals. Are we trying to get the best of both cultures here?

Ok...I guess what I need to know is their origins. Were they original tribes from the Sundering? Offshoots of Remusia? Something else?

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

   Did I ever say the Antislar were cannibals?  I'd have to see that in context.  

I know that the Vertan are said to be Cannibals, and that the Remusians at one time are thought to have participated in it.  But not the Antislar, as far as I can recall.  I've scanned my notes and haven't found such a claim.  Can you post where I said that please?

EDIT:

ca. 12700 b.S.  Explorers discover the Ice Tribes
Elven explorers from Fá'áv'cál'âr record the existence of minor and primitive human presence in the Icelands

From the History Table.  These primitive people will later develop into the Icefolk who become the Ice Tribes and the Antislar

[Azhira Styralias]

Sorry, I must be thinking the Vertan. I am getting them mixed up, apologies! I think I need to put together a time line and try to map some trade and immigration routes using the maps. I am struggling to wrap my head around a big picture here. The time line I created with Valan for Cort'Mangar helped immensely in seeing how Caaehl'heroth came together in the early years and I think one is needed here.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

You need to get MSN or YIM so we can discuss this stuff in real time.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Azhira, I'm thinking that you and I should try and collaborate on a name for the tribe that the Kaaer come from...

I want them to be Icefolk from the Icelands Coast to their new home in Iol, then ???? from then until the civil war that leads to Anif gaining independence, then from there they will become the Antislar.

It seems a bit more believable than a 10,000 year straight history... I might pop another name in their somewhere.... 

But, so that you know what to call them after the civil war, we should agree on.

[Azhira Styralias]

Very true. So have the original Ice Tribes branch into a distinct tribe for awhile before becoming the Antislar? So the Anif settlement is not Antislar people, but something different?

Now you have me confused...run that by me again. 

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

The Anif settlement is an Antislar settlement as far as bloodlines go etc, but I was thinking that maybe the name could be different at that time.

I'm thinking once they are off the Icelands Coast, that Icefolk no longer really applies, so they wioll be called something else, though they are still the same people.  Then, after Anif, when they start interbreeding with orcs and some elves, then they name themselves after their great city, Antislar.  Will not effect history or culture o anything else.  Just simply a name change.

[Azhira Styralias]

Ok, I am in the middle of the Kaaer revision where I go into the history. So let's get this straight...

The Icefolk migrate to the Mantle Woods and call themselves XXX.

A group of XXX decides to explore the lands across the bay and land in present day Anif.

This pre-Anif group calls themselves the YYY.

The YYY group trade with the sea elves and at some point, an ambitious YYY ruler decides to secede from the mainland XXX tribe and become independant. A civil war escalates and both the XXX and YYY groups become separate tribes.

The YYY tribe moves up into Caaehl'heroth following the Kharim River until they settle at the fork. They found a settlement called Eph'denn.

Orcs and dark elves move south from upper Caaehl'heroth and find two settlements of humans - Anif and Eph'denn and subjugate them as slaves in the war effort.

Orcen interbreeding (rape) occurs between the YYY and orcs. The half-breed children grow rapidly until these half-orcs become a powerful group all their own. Full blooded YYY humans are phased out and the half-breeds call themselves the Kaaer'dar'shin.

Meanwhile, the mainland XXX tribe are shaken by the civil war and are led into other directions. They build a great city known as Antislar and scholars and explorers begin to call these people the "Antislar" after their city.

Antislar and Kaaer resume trade and breeding relations (along with some peaceful Osther-Oc clans). The Kaaer embrace lore and rituals of the Lost Ones of the Themed'lon strengthening their culture.

Sound about right, Alt?

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Close, but I'm putting the change in name before the civil war.   Prolly another civil war.  Something with Carbug's ancestors.

The Icefolk migrate to the Mantle Woods and call themselves XXX.

In troubled times XXX becomes YYY

A group of YYY decides to explore the lands across the bay and land in present day Anif.

This pre-Anif group continues to calls themselves the YYY.

The YYY group trade with the sea elves and at some point, an ambitious YYY ruler decides to secede from the mainland YYY  tribe and become independant. A civil war escalates and both the mainland YYY and Anif YYY groups become separate tribes.

The Anif YYY tribe moves up into Caaehl'heroth following the Kharim River until they settle at the fork. They found a settlement called Eph'denn.

Orcs and dark elves move south from upper Caaehl'heroth and find two settlements of humans - Anif and Eph'denn and subjugate them as slaves in the war effort.

Orcen interbreeding (rape) occurs between the Anif YYY and orcs. The half-breed children grow rapidly until these half-orcs become a powerful group all their own. Full blooded Anif YYY humans are phased out and the half-breeds call themselves the Kaaer'dar'shin.

Meanwhile, the mainland YYY tribe are shaken by the civil war and are led into other directions. They build a great city known as Antislar and scholars and explorers begin to call these people the "Antislar" after their city.

Antislar and Kaaer resume trade and breeding relations (along with some peaceful Osther-Oc clans). The Kaaer embrace lore and rituals of the Lost Ones of the Themed'lon strengthening their culture.


I left the post civil war Anif tribe as YYY, but if they want to rename themselves then, that is entirely up to you, and sounds reasonable, until they are wiped out and become the Kaaer.

[Azhira Styralias]

Ok this is good. We just need some name ideas for your pre-Antislar tribes and the Anif tribe. I think the Anif YYY group should have a name (at least one given by scholars of history) to differentiate them as separate once they move to Caaehl'heroth. They continue that name and become the Kaaer later. Splitting groups among tribes is not unusual and there is precedent for it such as the Injerin (Lost Ones, Folkmore, Sea Elves). Usually, history names a group after the place where they moved to.

The second issue to resolve is the dates. When did the Icefolk move to the Mantle Woods?

When did XXX become YYY?

etc etc

I know the more or less definite date is the Anif civil war that occurs roughly let's say...500 years before the orc invasion (798 b.S.). My goal is to have Anif and Eph'denn settled for at least 50 to 100 years before the orcs come down. That gives the humans enough time to settle and grow large enough to survive subjugation and interbreeding.

298 b.S. - Invasion of orcs (subsequent invasion of Kaaer)

398 b.S. - Eph'denn is founded

598 b.S. - Anif civil war

798 b.S. - Anif is founded

I am thinking in hundreds of years, but Sarvonian history is typically thousands of years periods...so we may have to add a few hundreds or more here. 

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