Grothar, Baveras and Eight Winds Bay

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[Deklitch Hardin]

Hi there,

In my Eight Winds Bay entry, Seeker made the following suggestion:

For as long as can be remembered the inhabitants of the Eight Winds Bay area have considered the great whirlpool in the bay as a gift and a curse from the Gods Baveras and Grothar.  While many local tribes have lost love ones to the depths of the Bay they are also protected from invaders. It is said that Grothar caused the bay to blow winds from eight sides to confuse the sailors in the bay and thwart them from being able to navigate the waters. Indeed as sailors attempt to navigate thebay the winds are unpredictable and seem to confirm this part of the legend.  However these eight winds had an unexpected consequence, where the winds converged a great whirlpool formed in the waters below.  It is believed that Baveras was not pleased with Grothar's interference in the waters and a great battled ensued for many years in which great storms cursed the bay and the waters of the bay rose and dipped wildly making the waters impassable.  In the end Grothar won, the eight winds and the resulting whirlpool remained. From this time on the Bay was called Eight Winds Bay.  Even today the Gods battle from time to time and the storms rage, some pray to the Goddess Baveras in hopes she will gain strength and will someday win the battle and the whirlpool will disappear.  Today the whirlpool remains and it seems destined that Grothar will continue to win the battle with his eight winds.

It provides another reason for the existence of Tuu'marásh ... and doesn't simply have everything tied up around the whole thing being created by the War of the Chosen.

I've read through the entries on Grothar and Baveras and I see them mentioned as being worshipped/whatevered by elves as well as by humans. I know that when it is the humans, it is talking about those of Santharia, is this the case with the elves as well? or would the elves in northern Sarvonia be included in this veneration of the Aeolía, or would they be more likely to have their own  high spirits, related, but different, to the Aeolía?

I also saw the following in the Baveras entry ...

Many tales are about Baveras' relation to other gods, especially to Grothar, the God of the Weather. So one elven legend tells us how Grothar and Baveras came to love each other, another how Baveras climbed a tree and called Grothar to bring rain. A third which is widespread under humans as well reports how Grothar asked Jeyriall for a flower for Baveras and the waterstar came into existence.

Given that, would it be likely that Baveras and Grothar would be in conflict?

Could it be a competition between them, or an attempt to keep the Greater Hooded Trolog (a creature I've designed that is attracted to Tuu'marásh) from spreading out too widely and eating all of the other creatures, while also contributing to the Eight Winds?

Finally, Blue Druids ... would they be likely to be in any way related to Barveras? In the Grothar entry, it mentions Green or Tree druids being related to Grothar, but in the Druid entry, it says that Druids aren't really related to any of the Twelvern.

Anyway, thanks (in advance) for any thoughts about these questions

Dek

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

The problem with this fine myth is, that Baveras and Grothar are not worshipped in the North, they are Southern, Santharian deities. I'm not familiar with the tribes, who live around the Eight Winds Bay. I don't think, that we can assume, that, even if the twelvern belief already existed in Fá'áv'cál'âr as we know it today in Santharia, it would not have changed to something else. Elves don't worship the twelve, who is out there who would?

Maybe just changing the names and using different deities would do the trick. Just look into the belief of the tribes there, if anything is written down already.

(Sorry, I'm still busy with family, Carlos etc, so I can't do it for you)

[Valan Nonesuch]

Pardon me Talia, elves don't worship the Twelve? Have I been operating under an incorrect assumption that they do then? There's no mention of most of the northern elves worshipping anything one way or another, with the exception of the Grey Elves and mention of Ava. It was my understanding that the Twelve were the elven deities and that humans just co-opted them, which gives no reason for the Injerin, Arthryon and Meladrhim not to worship them. If the Injerin worshiped the Twelve it seems likely that the Arthryon being an offshoot wold hold the same worship and that the Meladrhim, being descended from both of those tribes would have the same traditions.

However, assuming I'm completely wrong about that, the Twelve would still be worshiped in the North because there are Erpheronians on the Peninsula of Aden.

As to Dek's questions, since this is his topic after all, there are probably two ways to look at it.

The humans would be the ones to interpret the gods in a more human way, bickering and squabling, so you could credit it to the erpheronians.

However, if the northern elves do worship the twelve, their views could be similarly divorced. Their lands are harsher and quite a bit crueller than southern lands. The land is as important to the mythology of a people as their history in my opinion.

Perhaps the storms are the reslt of gods trying to undo mortal/Chosen influence in the bay? Malevolent spirits of drowned sailors? Dead armies fighting the battles they fought in life among the waves? I'll admit Seeker's spun an excellent yarn there but do consider the other options.

[Deklitch Hardin]

Firstly, thank you both Talia and Valan for your quick responses on this. I certainly wasn't expecting you to take away from your Christmas celebrations with family to answer this, Talia. It can wait until a later time.

Any further answers can wait until after your festivities finish, Talia.

The problem with this fine myth is, that Baveras and Grothar are not worshipped in the North, they are Southern, Santharian deities. I'm not familiar with the tribes, who live around the Eight Winds Bay. I don't think, that we can assume, that, even if the twelvern belief already existed in Fá'áv'cál'âr as we know it today in Santharia, it would not have changed to something else. Elves don't worship the twelve, who is out there who would?

I'm sorry Talia, some of what you say here seems to be at odds with the entries on both Grothar and Baveras, in which among other things they talk about elves worshipping these two, and presumably the others among the Twelve.

From the Grothar entry ...

Among the elves, there are similar clerical communities, but their focus is more meditative and internal, rather than aiming towards education and outreach. They are known as “Windsingers” or “Ava’shae’llae”. An important part of their ethical and spiritual development is training to listen to the unfiltered howling and soughing of the wind in nature: on lonely mountaintops, in solitary forests, along deserted beaches and cliff-faces, or wherever else they can hear the Windsong. Direction, force, tone, pitch, and even scent of the particular wind all play a part in interpreting and discerning the message which Grothar wishes to convey. They seek out isolated places in small groups and usually scatter out from a central supply area, living as hermits for several months on end, only returning sporadically for more food and other necessities.

Why would the elves have 'similar clerical communities' for Grothar if they didn't worship the Aeolía?

From the same entry under appearance  ...

Grothar is often drawn or sculpted as a very young male elf. Slim, with long flowing hair and sharply pointed ears, mischief twinkles in his eyes though his lips are solemn.]Grothar is often drawn or sculpted as a very young male elf. Slim, with long flowing hair and sharply pointed ears, mischief twinkles in his eyes though his lips are solemn.

Wouldn't elves be the most likely to make him appear elven? Why would humans, who from my experience attempt to make the divine look lhuman depict one of their gods as an elf?

Finally, in the Baveras entry ... under appearance it says the following ...

Baveras is worshipped all over Santharia, but is perceived differently according to where she is worshipped. The biggest difference in appearance is between the people living near and of the sea, and those living inland, be it the human tribes or the elven ones. The seafaring tribes depict her as having a fishtail like the mermaids. The inland tribes see her mostly as the Water Goddess as having legs. The Baveras of the Sea is most times naked, the Baveras of the Streams and Lakes is dressed in long floating clothes of her colours, though there exist paintings as well with her coming out of a well naked. The human tribes as f.e. the Stratanians show her as having a fishtail, but otherwise human features, the elven seafaring tribe of the Sanhorrhim have pictures of her with fishtail, but elven features like pointed ears. The elves of the forest however describe her as young elven woman climbing up a tree to greet the falling water of the rain after a long period of drought.

To me, that clearly suggests that the elves do worship Baveras, even though the elves are described as being in Santharia.

Maybe just changing the names and using different deities would do the trick. Just look into the belief of the tribes there, if anything is written down already.

(Sorry, I'm still busy with family, Carlos etc, so I can't do it for you)

Thank you for that suggestion, Talia, however I did that before I asked the questions. If the answers that I was seeking were there, I wouldn't have asked them.

Regarding changing names and using different deities ...

Hasn't the talk been against people creating new deities recently? I'm thinking particularly of Alex and his work with the Ashmari.

Valan, I've been working under an incorrect assumption as well, and I found/thought the exact same thing as you. Thank you for your suggestions regarding the erpheronians.

Dek

[Azhira Styralias]

As Cosmo mod and North mod, I will also input my two sans...

Remember, the deity entries were written long before the North was as developed as it is today. All elves, North and South Sarvonia, worship some form of the Avanian pantheon (Twelvern being the human term). The elves are long lived and Northern tribes revere the same gods as the South. However, the North likely have different interpretations and myths regarding the Avanian gods due to their culture and environment.

The Avanian gods as they are in the on-site entries are from the Southern Santharian point of view. The Northern elven tribes have yet to have any unique development of their own. Either way, the North reveres the same Grothar and Baveras as the South, only with different ways and methods.

New deities and pantheons are more likely to grow in the North due to the very mixed, uncivilized and harsh cultures of the tribes there. However, they all should be similar in some way since most North humans and elves of today are ancestors of Fá'áv'cál'âr. The humans took their interpretation and the elves another. The entries of the gods have yet to reflect this.

So, while elves have kept the Avanian gods in the North, the humans have not necessarily done so (i.e. Kuglimz, Ash'mari and Ice Tribes).

[Deklitch Hardin]

Thank you Azhira,

Let's see if I get this right then ...

if I say something along the lines "the weather god/dess of the Arthryon, Injerin and Meladrhim" and "the water god/dess of the Arthryon, Injerin and Meladrhim" that'll be fine for the purposes of the the Winds Bay entry, and at a later stage we can work on names/areas of influence/importance etc? At which point I'll change those references in Eight Winds Bay to the names of the Gods/Goddesses agreed to for them.

Is that along the lines of what you're meaning?

Or would it be better to leave out all mention of the Gods/Goddesses altogether?

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

However, assuming I'm completely wrong about that, the Twelve would still be worshiped in the North because there are Erpheronians on the Peninsula of Aden.

That's ok!

To the mentioning worshipping of the twelve in the entries:

I can't go and look out for these discussons about the elven belief now, but what I remember is (and how Artimidor voiced he would like to see it, if nobody has other opinions).

Note, these are new ideas which will of course contradict some older entries. How these have to be bend or not has to be decided at some point. Maybe some elven communities have begun to worship the twelves also, but I would restrict this to Santharia, where it can already be found in some entries.  :

The elves worship mainly Ava, they may know the Twelve (and may have invented them firsthand in their myths), but the Twelve are human deities mostly. Maybe raised to godlike status from mortal heroes in the distant past. (New idea!)

Remember, the deity entries were written long before the North was as developed as it is today. All elves, North and South Sarvonia, worship some form of the Avanian pantheon (Twelvern being the human term). The elves are long lived and Northern tribes revere the same gods as the South. However, the North likely have different interpretations and myths regarding the Avanian gods due to their culture and environment.

The entries may have been developed before the North had many entries, that does not mean, that you can extend them to the North. Saying that what we have now is how the Southerners see them and they are present in the North also is making a big decision in this direction which has to be discussed thoroughly, for it shapes the entire North.

And frankly, I would find it boring to have the same deities worshipped in Northern Sarvonia as in Southern Sarvonia. I would try to created  differences, based on a different history, environment etc.

But let us discuss that in two weeks or so.

[Deklitch Hardin]

I'll drop all mention of it from the entry for now. At a later time when something is in place for northern Sarvonia, particularly those three elven tribes, I'll bring it in then.

Apologies for disturbing your holidays, Talia.

It raises some interesting questions though, which I'll be sure to raise at the time that these discussions are underway.

Dek

[Deklitch Hardin]

So ... are we in any way able to start discussing this stuff now? Or do you still need more time, Talia? (and by discussing, I mean a discussion in which all opinions are considered valid and are listened to by all parties ... if we aren't going to have a discussion along those lines ... I'm not going to get involved in it.)


Until I have a better handle on what my place is in Santharia, I've decided not to seek to continue any work on anything to do with the religious aspects of the BSEs. Even when I understand what my place is here (or if there is a place for me here) I'm unlikely to seek to have anything to do with religious aspects of them ... pity, as I thought I had some interesting ideas for it, but there you have it. Could this topic be locked pleased, moderators?

[Azhira Styralias]

Sorry Dek, but Cosmology and Deities is a very complex subject around here and, much like Ximaxian magic, you will find many differing opinions and directions.

If this were my entry, I would have mentioned Baveras and Grothar by name in the Eight Winds Bay entry. The elves all over Sarvonia still worship (or at least remember) the Avanian gods from the days of Fá'áv'cál'âr. The North elves have not abandoned the ideas behind Baveras and Grothar completely just because they are in the North.

To me, the only difference is the North will have different methods and myths behind these two gods due to environment and culture in which they live. Regardless, a South elf would recognize a North Baveras and vise versa.

I don't agree that the North elves should have different deities. The Fá'áv'cál'âr origins are the same.

Elves remain the same throughout time, this is their culture and outlook, given their spiritual origins and long life.

[Deklitch Hardin]

What you are saying is what i was thinking as well Azhira. But its been done and dusted and I'm not involving myself in cosmology any more.

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