* 
Welcome Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?


*
gfxgfx Home Forum Help Search Login Register   gfxgfx
gfx gfx
gfx
Pages: 1 [2]
Print
Author Topic: Logic and Magic  (Read 7409 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Alexandre Scriabin
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 4
Offline Offline

Posts: 125



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: 25 February 2011, 17:35:13 »

@Dek:

Okay, I understand. Good save by Arti there too, keeping the ounia thread from being derailed.

@Talia:

Quote
Dear Alexandre, what did you want to show with your first post? A means to organise Ximaxian magic or your own cleverness?

The former and not the latter. I'm sorry if my example was terse or difficult, but I think Arti (what with his just having said he's familiar with philosophy) would agree that amongst the numerous philosophical systems out there, "possible world semantics" is one of the simpler ones. It was honestly the best example I could provide for how to lay down philosophical ideas in a numbered equation.

@Arti:

Actually, I wasn't intending to use variables or anything. I was intending to make something like this proof I made earlier-

Quote
Proof of Prop 7:
    Assumption: "A statement is possibly necessarily true."

    1.) "In some possible world, the statement is necessarily true." (Def 3)

    2.) "In some possible world, the statement is true in every world." (Def 4)

    3.) "In every world, the statement is true." (Obvious reduction)

    4.) "The statement is necessarily true." (Def 4)

    5.) Therefore, "If a statement is possibly necessarily true, it is necessarily true."

Notice how the proof was fully comprehensive and referred back to previously given definitions. With the first magical equation I present, I'm going to break up Coren's spell formula in part II of his three part lecture on Ximaxian magic, and make use of some other disparate facts from other entries, in order to present a very concise and complete explanation. Consider it as just using the material we already have and organizing it.

Maybe I threw you guys off because I said equation instead of proof. A proof is a form of equation.
Logged

"If there is anyone here whom I have not insulted, I beg his pardon."

Johannes Brahms
Coren FrozenZephyr
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 157
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3.357



View Profile
« Reply #16 on: 26 February 2011, 04:53:01 »

Hi. Haven't had a chance to read this (or any other thread) yet. Just to let everyone know that I am unavailable/unreachable until 7 March. If anyone needs to get hold of me after that, drop me a line please.

I won't be checking the boards and/or my email etc until 7 March. :)
Logged

"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
Alexandre Scriabin
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 4
Offline Offline

Posts: 125



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: 26 February 2011, 09:42:27 »

Well, it's good to hear from you Coren, and I hope you have a good time during this upcoming month. I'm ready for spring, myself.
Logged

"If there is anyone here whom I have not insulted, I beg his pardon."

Johannes Brahms
Rayne (Alýr)
Dreamress
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 117
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 4.466



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: 26 February 2011, 11:19:55 »

Oh dear. I'm gone for a few days and look what happens! My fault for stirring up discussion and then not being here.

Philosophy and magic have much in common, including their tendency to be difficult to communicate. I am quiet certain that Derida would smile to read this thread.

The age-old problem in talking philosophy, Alexandre, is that you end up sounding like a philosopher. You manage to avoid this more or less in your first post, though unfortunately there is not enough information to fully communicate what you have in mind. Unfortunately, in your second post, you explain the method but not the application. The best way to explain philosophy, in my opinion, is to apply it in the way you mean it to be applied--in this case, to magic.

I do like your idea of presenting a plenary representation of the magic system. I'm not entirely sure I entirely understand your method. You speak of a language and of equations, using semantically complex linguistic analogies while also bringing in the typically mathematical terminology of proofs, thereby presenting a cacophonous, esoteric, and confused hodgepodge of associations--many of which are best left untapped.

If you have an idea, and it is a good idea, you have not yet communicated it clearly enough for me to pass judgment on it. I would like to understand your idea, and would therefore suggest a more immediate medium, like IM or chat, to discuss it further if you wish to pursue this.

Let me know.
Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Alexandre Scriabin
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 4
Offline Offline

Posts: 125



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: 26 February 2011, 11:40:33 »

Hi Rayne, good to see you again. I'm still working on the first equation, so I think you'll see pretty clearly what I mean when you see the rough draft. If it's too over-convoluted, then that will be pretty clear once you see it.
Logged

"If there is anyone here whom I have not insulted, I beg his pardon."

Johannes Brahms
Alexandre Scriabin
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 4
Offline Offline

Posts: 125



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: 26 February 2011, 11:55:32 »

Now, the start of the process in applying this to Ximaxian magic:

The basic formula of a Ximaxian spell- First in the process and uppermost is The Idea (the abstract concept), followed by The Car'all, Content and Form (content being divided into Structure and Substance), and finally The Physical Entity.

The Mirror Principle- A change in the Car'all must affect a physical or spiritual change in the environment. This is the basic principle upon which Ximaxian magic operates.

The Idea- The abstract concept that is the basis of a spell. The hierarchy of an idea is relative to how specific the idea is, being whittled down to something more and more specific by Subsets (from animate, to human, to man, to old man, to sick old man) and made less specific by going the opposition direction with Supersets.

The Car'all (according to the entry "Understanding Ximaxian magic through the Car'all part I")- The magister and Styrash's premise in philosophy and metaphysics that everything has an aura. The composition of every specific object is dependent upon it. By way of the Mirror Principle, that a change in Car'all affects a change in Physical Reality, manipulation of the Car'all can change the environment.

The Content- The first complimentary aspect of The Content is The Substance. The Substance is the most basic level of Car'all, being energy, that makes up The Content. The second complimentary aspect of The Content is The Structure. The Structure represents how exactly the content is arranged. Relative to each other, The Substance is the ultimate Superset, and the the Structure is the ultimate Subset.

The Form- Less of a practical part of the spell, and more of a principle, The Form relates to The Structure in that one can be in the form of an elf, but different from other elves. In a way, The Form is a basic classification. If one were to think of The Form, he/she would say that a person is an elf. If one were to think of The Structure, he/she would say that the same person is a thin figured elf.

The Physical Entity- The end product of the rest of the formula. One who practices magic by organizing his thoughts according to the rest of the formula, is able to create the Physical Entity, by way of the Mirror Principle. Of note is the fact that this term "Physical Entity" refers to the effects of a spell, and thus refers to effects both physical and spiritual.

Thus, all Ximaxian spells must conform to the following equation-

1. The abstract concept that is The Idea is asserted over one's environment via the Car'all with will power. Refer to the Mirror Principle.

2. The Idea is then shaped according to The Content (Substance and Structure) and classified according to The Form.

3. The Idea having been asserted over the Car'all and having been mentally shaped and classified, the new Physical Entity is the result of the spell.
« Last Edit: 26 February 2011, 12:07:23 by Alexandre Scriabin » Logged

"If there is anyone here whom I have not insulted, I beg his pardon."

Johannes Brahms
Rayne (Alýr)
Dreamress
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 117
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 4.466



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: 27 February 2011, 04:26:03 »

I think I'm gaining a better understanding of what you have in mind, Alexandre, though I admit that I'm still at a loss to identify an exigence for this.

There are a few place that I think perhaps need more elucidation. Car'all has a few meanings. One of these is the elvish (not styrash--this refers to the language) idea of car'all as being the singular aura that encompasses all things within the dream. There is also the more Ximaxian notion of a car'all as being the individual "aura" of a thing. I would be clear about which of these you are referring to.

Your differentiation between Structure and Form is helpful, though I don't necessarily see the reason why structure is grouped in with content. It seems as though, based on how you describe it, structure is a subset of form and substance is a subset of content. I cannot find a reason for bringing up structure and substance. I feel it is also to keep in mind that content and form are subsets of car'all, where the content (as you've described it) seem to pertain to the ounia and the form more or less seems to pertain to the links (xeua).

Your nomenclature seems a little strange to me. The concept of the "Physical Entity" as being the end product seems unrelated--not only because a physical entity in the objective sense (that is, outside of your definition of it) does not imply being an "end product." In addition, it implies that a change is physical, which it might not be. If a change is spiritual, for example, is the end product still called a "Physical Entity"? Perhaps a more suitable name like "Final Product" or "Concluding Result" or something like that would be a bit less confusing?

I feel that, in your breakdown, the role of the will is under-represented. Willpower is the energy of an idea and is intimately tied to it. Willpower is the driving force, the power that drives change. It is the active reflection of desire.

I'm also afraid that the idea of mirroring is a little peculiar. Keep in mind that changes in car'all cause changes in the physical/spiritual environment because car'all IS the environment. I'm a little nervous at fracturing that identity.

I really believe that the first task is building a case for this kind of method. How does this improve upon what is already there? I would also be careful of your way of describing this--calling this a formula for a spell is a bit confusing, since the "Formula" often refers to the styrash phrase uttered while casting. Just something to be cognizant of for further discussion!
Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Alexandre Scriabin
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 4
Offline Offline

Posts: 125



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: 27 February 2011, 05:36:40 »

First, I'd like to say that you demonstrated completely and utterly why I feel that our understanding of magic is disparate and confused amongst all of the different things being said. There are many different entries with many different things to say, and not even the magic experts can agree, as I will point out the differences between what you said and what Coren said in his three part lecture entry.

Quote
There are a few place that I think perhaps need more elucidation. Car'all has a few meanings. One of these is the elvish (not styrash--this refers to the language) idea of car'all as being the singular aura that encompasses all things within the dream. There is also the more Ximaxian notion of a car'all as being the individual "aura" of a thing. I would be clear about which of these you are referring to.

You're right, I'm going to have to think about how I put that definition together and express it from the Ximaxian point of view.

Quote
Your differentiation between Structure and Form is helpful, though I don't necessarily see the reason why structure is grouped in with content. It seems as though, based on how you describe it, structure is a subset of form and substance is a subset of content. I cannot find a reason for bringing up structure and substance. I feel it is also to keep in mind that content and form are subsets of car'all, where the content (as you've described it) seem to pertain to the ounia and the form more or less seems to pertain to the links (xeua).

For one, I don't think it would be a good idea to bring up ounia and links in this equation. They deserve their own equations, and would muddle up this one if they got involved.

Second, the differentiation I made between structure and form, and how I grouped form with content, was done according to this chart:



And here's a quotation from what the entry has to say about it:

Quote
THE CONTENT

The Content of a Cár'áll has two aspects: Substance and Structure. The Substance is the “material”, the energy that makes up the carall. Structure is the overall design in which “the what is in there”, the Substance of the Cár'áll, is arranged. In other words, the Cár'áll’s Structure represents the precise configuration of its Substance. In this sense the Structure forms the skeleton of the Cár'áll’s Content; it defines how exactly the Content (the manifestation of the abstract concept, the resulting concrete entity) should look like.

Just as ounia are the building-blocks of a Cár'áll’s Substance, the links build up the specific configuration that is its Structure. These Xeuá links are the chains that tie together each component or “Ounía”. The Xeua links are the “glue” that holds the Substance of a Cár'áll, the magical energy, together. It is in this sense that the elves talk about (the Principle of) Xeuá holding Life together.

STRUCTURE AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO FORM

As each entity is a unique manifestation of an underlying Idea, no two entities can have the EXACT same Structure, but there are similarities between the Cár'áll structures of two objects of the same kind. It is these similarities that help us identify two objects as objects of the same “kind”. Each “kind” is of course the reflection of an intangible Idea – or to put it differently: Each of these classifications represents an abstract concept we name the “Idea”.

When we single out these similarities and assemble them together, a pattern emerges. This “pattern” signifies the Highest Common Factor among objects of the same kind. From this exercise we draw the conclusion that: Each Cár'áll of the same “type” has a pattern identifying it as being a Cár'áll of that type. This pattern, the Highest Common Factor shared by all objects of the same kind, is the Form. Otherwise stated, the Form of the Cár'áll outlines its Structure. Observe that this “pattern” is only a subset – an “abstract” or summary, if you like – of the whole Structure.

So, should I go against the chart in this instance?

Quote
Your nomenclature seems a little strange to me. The concept of the "Physical Entity" as being the end product seems unrelated--not only because a physical entity in the objective sense (that is, outside of your definition of it) does not imply being an "end product." In addition, it implies that a change is physical, which it might not be. If a change is spiritual, for example, is the end product still called a "Physical Entity"? Perhaps a more suitable name like "Final Product" or "Concluding Result" or something like that would be a bit less confusing?

That was another term used in the entry and chart, that I tried to reconcile logically by explaining it as the "end product."

Quote
I feel that, in your breakdown, the role of the will is under-represented. Willpower is the energy of an idea and is intimately tied to it. Willpower is the driving force, the power that drives change. It is the active reflection of desire.

I'm also afraid that the idea of mirroring is a little peculiar. Keep in mind that changes in car'all cause changes in the physical/spiritual environment because car'all IS the environment. I'm a little nervous at fracturing that identity.

While willpower is an important concept, I'm not looking to explain all of magic in one equation. I'm just identifying some things, and describing them, in order to draw up an equation for spell casting in general. Elemental magic and link making/breaking magic will probably require their own respective equations, and will power may deserve one of it's own as well.

As for you having been confused by my reference to the Mirror Principle:

Quote
THE MIRROR PRINCIPLE

A change in the aura affects a change - which can be physical, spiritual or both - in the object/being. Therefore, by altering a Cár'áll, a mage can bring about a change in the actual entity represented by that Cár'áll. According to the Academy of Ximax, this “Mirror Principle” is the basis of all magic.

MAGIC AS OPPOSITION

To reiterate: The Form decrees how things are supposed to be. This is why all magic is essentially an act of opposition - against the natural will of things, against the natural state of their Cár'áll, and indeed against ‘the’ Natural Will. So when a mage casts a spell, he tries to put his will over the natural will of a Cár'áll. Recall the old adage that a mage first becomes Elemental, then goes through Xeua and finally ends up as a monk? (In spirit rather than the literal sense of a bald-headed cleric living in a monastery on a mountaintop, it is hoped. I am rather fond of my hair.) He realises that all magical intervention has the potential to well… “interfere” with the Divine Plan, disrupt the Natural Order of the Universe. And due to the immense devotion and respect he has developed for THE CÁR'ÁLL (universal) and hence Life, he refuses to upset or strain the cosmological balance anymore – at least no more than is absolutely necessary. This signifies the shift from the “Doing-Self” to the “Being-Self”.

Elven philosophers don't seem to believe, as Ximaxian mages do, that the Car'all is separate in this manner.

Quote
I really believe that the first task is building a case for this kind of method. How does this improve upon what is already there? I would also be careful of your way of describing this--calling this a formula for a spell is a bit confusing, since the "Formula" often refers to the styrash phrase uttered while casting. Just something to be cognizant of for further discussion!

I actually was referring, in a way, to what Coren described as a formula when he did the lecture on that chart in part II.

As to the purpose of me doing this, I think it should be apparent that a lot of information needs to be reconciled and standardized, considering the rifts between previous explanations.
Logged

"If there is anyone here whom I have not insulted, I beg his pardon."

Johannes Brahms
Rayne (Alýr)
Dreamress
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 117
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 4.466



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: 27 February 2011, 07:19:09 »

You are absolutely right. Things need to be standardized and reconciled.

I've said this other places, but I will say it again here: Ximaxian magic has undergone many transformations, and not everything (in fact, very little) on the site is up-to-date. The magic experts have had many long debates on this--I recall discussions with Mina and Silfer in which we were almost at each others' throats. And of course Artimidor I'm sure remembers the many animated discussions I have had with him concerning magic.

Even in my own explanations there is inconsistencies across time. I have already admitted that my explanations of xeua, with which I wrote the entry currently on the site, are wrong.

If you were hoping for a unified, monolithic presentation of the Ximaxian magical system, I am sorry to disappoint you. I am doing what I can to standardize things--hence my reason for tackling the ounia entry and beginning work to update the xeua entry. I am starting from building blocks and moving upward, but I cannot do everything at once.

I apologize, but this it the evolution of magic. Unfortunately, many of my fellow magic experts have dropped away, but I hope to continue the work we have begun. And I hope soon to have Coren's voice to help guide me in my revisions.
Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Alexandre Scriabin
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 4
Offline Offline

Posts: 125



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: 27 February 2011, 07:55:31 »

Well, I guess we don't need to lay it out in equation format, and I'm not the one really qualified to do so. But it certainly is time for standardization. If I can offer my help, I'd love to be part of this process, or just observe.
Logged

"If there is anyone here whom I have not insulted, I beg his pardon."

Johannes Brahms
Pages: 1 [2]
Print
Jump to:  

Recent
[27 March 2019, 00:01:57]

[21 June 2018, 14:28:00]

[31 May 2017, 06:35:55]

[06 May 2017, 05:27:04]

[03 April 2017, 01:15:03]

[26 March 2017, 12:48:25]

[15 March 2017, 02:23:07]

[15 March 2017, 02:20:28]

[15 March 2017, 02:17:52]

[14 March 2017, 20:23:43]

[06 February 2017, 04:53:35]

[31 January 2017, 08:45:52]

[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]

[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]

[27 October 2016, 07:42:01]

[27 September 2016, 18:51:05]

[11 September 2016, 23:17:33]

[11 September 2016, 23:15:27]

[11 September 2016, 22:58:56]

[03 September 2016, 22:22:23]
Members
Total Members: 1019
Latest: lolanixon
Stats
Total Posts: 144586
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 26
Online Ever: 700
(23 January 2020, 20:05:39)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 18
Total: 18

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2005, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Theme based on Cerberus with Risen adjustments by Bloc and Krelia
Modified By Artimidor for The Santharian Dream
gfx
gfxgfx gfxgfx