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Valan Nonesuch
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« on: 20 May 2011, 10:19:18 »

Rather than clutter the cosmology forum with more debating and arguing, I've moved my response to the Murlar thread here, where it belongs. I apologize if I've inadvertently offended or insulted anyone, that was not my intention. My aim was to bring this out of the cosmology forum where everyone can have a say if they so desire. A few people, myself included, have taken things the wrong way in the past. Let's try our best to avoid that.

I've been working in a quiet sort of way, off-site and on, to develop R'unor from where Xenos left it back in 2001.
Most of this has been in the miscellaneous forum, up until now.

The R'unorian Commoner's Dagger, the Touch of Death, and the revision of R'unorian Currency. More like a rewrite, in fact, since there is at this point none of the original entry left on site. No one raised any fuss about removing that entry and replacing it with one which made sense.

Xenos did a lot of work which, at this point, would be laughed out of the site. Mostly because it's very... cursory.
The tribes entries hardly qualify for that title. Since Xenos tenure, the site's standards have changed.
When I look at R'unor, what I see is a lot of... over-enthusiasm. As of the moment, according to the R'unorian entries, there are nine tribes, living on a series of islands with space roughly equivalent of that of the island of Denilou, and without the advantage of the collected space of a single island. From the map, the resources of the Islands of R'unor seem quite scarce.

From where I stand, this means that they're either very small, very similar tribes, incredibly inbred or this number is wrong, because it does not make sense. I tend towards the third option.

While developing Murlar, I took the liberty of altering the names of two of the gods, originally H'lf'ik and Hr'lia, to Hel'fik and Ha'lia respectively. I did this so that the words would be more easily pronounced. These alterations also make them more comparable to the names of the other gods and the other names on the R'unorian Map. The largest problem was the fact that the names did not include vowels in places where, according to all the languages I've encountered, there should be vowels.

There is an unfortunate trend when people try to write fantasy names where people believe that an apostrophe fits just about anywhere. I've discussed these names with several others, and they've all found the name to be equally impossible to pronounce without adding an extra letter sound, always a vowel (an a, or an e, or a u in all cases)

While some would say that we should preserve as much as possible, we've revised things in the past so that they make sense given the larger world. Would we want to preserve patent nonsense at the cost of making what is a vibrant, coherent world make less sense internally?

The changes I've made are quibbling details so that the names make sense. Nothing else has been changed. A god by any other name is still a god. I have no intention to change them beyond that, but R'unor's inhabitants are by-and-large human. If a human tongue cannot pronounce those names without adding an extra letter to them, something needs to change.

As to the issue of the order I'm developing things in, Drasil and others mentioned that I seem to be doing this from the top down, rather than the bottom up. So I'll address that.

Others may have noticed I have a bit of difficulty with the overviews of entries. That's because I don't believe you can write an overview without the rest of the entry in place first. If the entry is wrong, by extension, the overview is wrong.

In this case, I see the main religion entry to be an overview. I would be unable to develop it without great pains without first developing the components that make it up, hence why I started with Murlar.

To me, an overview or an entry which resembles an overview, is like the upholstery of a chair. Without the legs, the back and the cushions to support that, all you have a bunch of fabric that might not fit. You make the chair first, and then you cover it. Xenos brief overview of R'unorian religion has given me a plan to build that chair.
In my eyes, developing the "little" entries before the grand "concept" as Talia has called it, is working from the bottom up.
I am unable to write that entry, without first knowing what I'm going to put in it. And the easiest way to do that is to develop the remaining six R'unorian gods.

As to R'unor's orcish population. Not only do we have the northern Antislar, but we also have the Kaaer'dar'shin the Volkek-Oshra and the Chyrakisth. These are all orcish populations integrated in one way or another, among other tribes. The Kaaer are completely half-orcs, the Volkek are considered to be "very well respected and interesting citizens of Ximax" according to their entry. As I recall the Antislar have a similar level of near-orcish individuals. The Chyrakisth, while sadistic and generally unpleasant, are a tribe of orcs existing in the midst of other races kingdoms.

This is not the first time we've had a group of orcs co-existing with other societies in a way that wasn't outright violent.

As of this point, I have every intention of continuing with R'unorian development as well as Santharian development on a 1:1 basis. One entry for R'unor, one entry for somewhere over in Sarvonia. I do resent the assumption that I don't understand the magnitude of what I intend to undertake.

It was mentioned that this would be a distraction from Manthria, but there are numerous distractions from Manthria already. If this was really a problem, I'd like to think someone would have stopped me from filling those holes in when I started developing entries named "R'unorian".

I do resent the fact that the only reason this entire discussion seems to have been raised is because I was knocking on the door of Talia's cosmology forum, rather than the bestiary, herbarium, places or misc forum.

Drasil and Jonael had no problem when I moved to revise the Lurker Beetle, nor was there a problem when Judith suggested that Shabakuk place his Gossiper in R'unor.

Seeker and I have had no problem with my work on R'unorian entries, or the R'unorian entry develop by M'ruk (the entry which earned him his apprentice plaque I believe).

Given my current entries on site, I retroactively owe R'unor about 26 entries, counting the four I've already put on the boards for review. (Murlar, the Guild of Librarians Rewrite, the Striker and the now Blarrowed Lurker Beetle/Pit Worm)

So it comes to this. Is there a problem with my filling in the whole Xenos has left, and is there a problem with a little cutting and sanding to make those holes which are square round? I may not have gone through the proper channels initially but I did not expect it to raise a fuss. R'unor is, by the Nybelmarians' admissions, part of Nybelmar. Speak now folks.
« Last Edit: 20 May 2011, 10:46:06 by Valan Nonesuch » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 20 May 2011, 12:23:26 »

I don't have a problem with R'unor development. If you're going to to do it, then stick with it and don't leave a dozen half-baked entries and concepts all over the place.  ;)
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« Reply #2 on: 20 May 2011, 13:11:37 »

Very eloquent, Valan. :)

As stated in the other thread, I support the development of R'unor.  This is a small group of islands, not an entire continent.  You and others have already been allowed to create entries, so it is a case of trying to close the barn door after the horse has escaped.

I take umbrage with your claim;
Quote
Xenos did a lot of work which, at this point, would be laughed out of the site.
.  True, many of those entries would no longer meet the standards we now expect, but it is the tone that is implicit in your statement that makes people bristle.  Everyone here who creates puts much of themselves into their work.  I do, as does Talia and Azhira and you.  Everyone.  I don't think saying someone's hard work, whether you think it is cursory or not, would be laughed off the site is very respectful of their work.

And it is that basis that drives Talia to so stridently try and defend the work of those no longer here.  She wants their work to be respected.  If you were gone for 5 years, you would want someone like Talia going to bat for your ideas and entries from those who will come after and want to improve on your work.  Someone new who just comes in, thinks your work is not up to their standards and just wants to go willy nilly changing it and denigrating your efforts.

That said, I'm all for you building upon Xenos' work.  The key phrase is "build upon".  Use it as a basis, build upon it, and it will slowly transform from Xenos' project to Valan's project.  With each entry, you make it more yours, without having to destroy what was his.  I tried to do this in my neck of the woods, where at the beginning I was very conscious of Curgans and Timeras' and Pikel's work.  I built on what they had started, and now it is to the point where pretty much everyone accepts that it is my area.  I did not go in with the idea of erasing their hard work.

Now, the names.  Like I said before, I think the names should be left.  This is my opinion, and I'm willing to accept that I could be in the minority on this.  But, if they are to be changed, I'd prefer substantive reasons.  Inpronouncability is not such a reason, in my opinion.  Many languages in Terra are nearly unpronounceable. (especially to me, I mean English is hard enough)  The clicks of the Bushman, for example.  The languages of the Mesoamericans.  I will admit that I do think there is an overused trend with apostrophes.

Now, to the issue of top down vs bottom up.  A people are shaped by their environment.  Therefore in order for you to know how to develop the people of R'unor, you need to know their environment.  Once a people have been shaped, they then shape their gods into funhouse mirrors of themselves, with some being extremes of either the ideal or the nightmare versions of themselves, while some have exaggerated traits that the people have.  Without knowing the people, it is hard to know the god.

To the orc question.  On this, I find no quibble.  I fully support a culture of integration.  But, you should think on this carefully, for this will most definitely, or should, affect your pantheon.  I point to the Romans, who with every people they assimilated, added to their pantheon and changed it.  The Greeks added their gods, then later the Christians.  If you want an integrated society, you should have an integrated pantheon.

My last point is a question.  Nybelmar?  Really?  Has anyone looked at the map?  Nybelmar?
« Last Edit: 20 May 2011, 13:14:07 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: 20 May 2011, 14:44:43 »

Thanks for the support Azhira and Altario, though I'm in an opinionated mood, so I'll see your umbrage and raise you justification :P

I understand your opinion, don't get me wrong. I have trouble wrapping my mouth around french from time to time, and I'm supposedly bilingual.
All of the languages, even the ones you have trouble with, can be spoken by a human. Japanese, French, Greek, Latin, Spanish, German, English, Basque, Russian, Mandarin, Portuguese, Cantonese, Esperanto and a hundred others are all made up of the sounds a human mouth is capable of producing.
The sounds of the bushmen are still sounds made by the human tongue. Clicks, clacks, pops and whistles are all well within that range. While the nuance might be beyond someone who isn't "fluent" there's obviously enough there that they can communicate in it, no?
"HL" for instance is not a sound that can be made by a human tongue without altering it by including some sort of vowel sound, and thus cannot be pronounced as written.
Kh and Ph are both consontant pairings just like Hl, but the one produces a hard C sound and the other an F sound. You can't say the same of HL.
R'unor's population is largely human, and so any names they use, especially names of gods, should be pronounceable by a human mouth.
It has been suggested changing one of the ice tribe names (the Inlerin) so that it doesn't get confused with the Injerin or sound so elvish. That's the name Curgan chose, isn't it? But it makes sense to change it because, as you said it doesn't sound "ice tribes".
Well, Hl'f'ik looks laberrant. There's not another construction like it in all of R'unor. To me, this isn't any more personal than correcting an unfortunate spelling error. Just like to you, changing Inlerin to something more appropriate is correcting a perceived flaw in the way Curgan named his Ice Tribes. But if you develop the Inlerin and change their name, they will still be an ice tribe no? Would you make them a Kuglimz tribe by the mere fact that their name was different? No. The only thing that will have changed is the name, all else is constant.
A rose by another other name smells just as sweet, folks. If it is the will of the majority that I don't change them, then so be it. But I'd at least like to try to put sense before sentiment.

Be honest with me. If I submitted this entry today, would it have a chance of making it on the site, compared to say this?
I don't mean any disrespect to the fellow, but Santharia seems to have come a long way since Xenos developed R'unor. Ten years! Those entries that are on site under a grandfather clause at this point. Because they've been there a long time. That's why so many like it (and every single word there is an entry) are on lists to be revised. Shall we take them off so we don't disrespect Uragel, Gnufruk, or Anaea by changing what is written there?

Look at the Lurker Beetle then (both of its parts) and now. Have I done a disservice to Xenos' work? Have I disrespected it?

To answer your question: I would rather see the spirit of my entry preserved, rather than have it look impoverished next to a new one. And it happened! Smee took thisand made it an entry that was fit to be included on the main site. It's Smee's entry as much as the draft was mine, but the spirit is still there, even if all the words are not. I might be a minority though.

Re: Re: Top down, bottom up
Shall I cut right to the chase and post the Blaar'kr revision I've been working on? Go right for the tip-top of the system and make the Kingdom of R'unor entry fit the current template?

To the question there Alt, It's listed as a part of Nybelmar under the places menus. Which sort of makes a little bit of sense. If you were to group say, Denilou, the isles of Quios, Quel'tra'loh, the scattersand shoals and the crimson isles together with R'unor, you could probably make them a whole new category not unlike the terran "continent" of Oceania. They don't seem to properly "belong" to any one continent.

That's quite a bit more than my two sans then. Call it a copperbard?
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« Reply #4 on: 20 May 2011, 14:55:07 »

 evil  Let's be honest, you don't need a special mood to be opinionated.  Valan=opinionated. :P

Am falling asleep, but just had to post this link.  A site dedicated to the pairing of HL.

http://www.creativeintellectual.com/Hlworldhome.html
« Last Edit: 20 May 2011, 14:57:53 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: 20 May 2011, 15:01:15 »

And yet, they all manage to include a vowel! Funny that. Whereas Hl'f'ik does not after the HL. Hlavic is Huh-la-vic I'm assuming, but without that A? The closest you might get is the sound of someone vomiting. I think that my point stands.
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« Reply #6 on: 20 May 2011, 15:16:36 »

Edit: didn't read the answer of Valan and Alt before I posted!


@Alt:
Nybelmar? I don't know where I read it, but somewhere I saw Nybelmar claim R'unor, as belonging to their realm, at least in present times...

And thanks, for better explaining what I want than I could :)

Valan, I think you make a great mistake: Just because I'm asking, if something is ok the way it is handled right now, does not mean, that I'm against it. There is no need to be so defensive, as your tone suggests.

Everything developed outside Manthria (or outside areas currently under development), draws workforce away from it. Of course there is development elsewhere, more than in Manthria - so why should I not point in this direction? The idea is, to not spread the butter on too much bread.  There is no need to defend your wish to develop R'unor like a child who says: 'But I want to do this', stamping with your foot. A ' I prefer to delve in R'unor, because my creative juices are flowing there' would be enough. It would have been a good idea, to ask the community, if taking  up the old works of Xenos is ok, would have saved a lot of troubles, wouldn't it? And everybody would have said, 'if you so dearly wish..'

Language: If a language has apparently no vowels - one fact could be, that they are just not written, but pronounced, that you have to know by heart, which one fills the gap in this word. Apostrophes can be an indication for missing vowels.
Check old Hebrew, I think it was the case there at some time. In this language you had no vowels also. So, that has nothing to do with fantasy ;)

Orc - did I say anything about having a society which clashes? Xenox writes, that the orcs are more civilised than elsewhere . I only missed the influence of them in the Murlar entry, or the remark, that Murlar is only a human god, that the orcs have a different one. For a society with orcs has to be different than a mere human one, otherwise I don't need to introduce them. Troubles make the life interesting! ;)

One last thing:

Quote
While some would say that we should preserve as much as possible, we've revised things in the past so that they make sense given the larger world. Would we want to preserve patent nonsense at the cost of making what is a vibrant, coherent world make less sense internally?

Maybe some of the revisions in the past have violated our  'rule' to respect the older works of  authors as much as possible? To say, 'but we've done it before' is not always a good argument.  And to call anything 'patent nonsense' - I would never do this (even if I think it is), but try to work around it, make out of this 'nonsense' something believable. Of course, it may not be possible to realise all my great ideas, but isn't that a great challenge?

One example, the lurker beetle. I have not read much of the old entry, nor much of your revision. Don't get me wrong again, I will not interfere with the bestiary mods, but show what I understand under respecting an old author's work.  I also want to take this example to show, what can be done to integrate something, and why there should be a very good reason to skip something.

Quote
A lot of the original entry focused exclusively on their domesticated state, and really belonged in usage, so I've expanded that, removed the ability to 'see into the infrared spectrum' and the ability to fly (because I can only let the square-cube law be violated so much)

First part, that's what a revision is for.
Removing 'infrared/ultraviolet spectrum' . Maybe better you skipped that, the word  had to go in any case, the description could not have stayed. However,  could they not have a sense for warmth which goes past beyond that what humans have? So that they feel some warm body approaching, even if they don't see it? Was that necessary to go?

Flying ability: I think it was  very important to Xenos, for his military. And huge dragons fly also. There are (small) round and heavy beetles on earth also, which you never thought could fly. The physics is abandoned anyway, mostly. Why not thinking of a way, how that beetle could fly? Producing a gas maybe, which makes it less heavy? Moving its wings in a way, so that an ascending force helps him fly? Maybe they can only start from cliffs?

Colour: Why was changing the colour necessary? Any good reason?

Xenox:
Quote
The males are usually  smaller than the females and are pale grey in color. Females are a bit larger and are black in color with two large blue, violet or red stripes down its back.

You:
Quote
It possesses six legs, and a hard, dark blue carapace, much like that of smaller beetles. The carapace on a female Lurker Beetle is a darker violet shade, with a pair of red stripes along the back of the carapace.

Enough. To clear that up again - I do not say, change it. That is up to the bestiary mods.
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« Reply #7 on: 20 May 2011, 15:27:06 »

Sunth was a submission only, Valan, Smee made it to an entry.

The Lurker beetle is now a better entry, but you did not preserve, what Xenos had in mind.
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« Reply #8 on: 20 May 2011, 16:01:53 »

Ta'lia, have all of these people that you are jumping to the defence of with their works in the past asked you to do so? Have you actually found out from them if they have a concern with what is being done to change the entries they have previously done? Or are you just making the assumption that because you have an issue with people doing that to your entries, that everyone who has ever developed anything in Santharia will also have that as a concern? Now, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with you being protective of your entries ... I think it is wrong that you'd use that as a justification to stop other people from trying to improve things, to make them fit in with the standards of today better, and to do things to help them make sense overall.

If the former (ie they have asked you to defend their entries), keep on doing it ... if the latter (ie you're just putting your feelings about your entries onto the way that others may or may not feel about thiers), I honestly think that you should try to find out if they have a concern with it, first.

Now then, something that's been concerning me since you raised your concern about Valan's continuing work in R'unor recently. This in relation to the Blessed Sea Elves. From your responses earlier in this thread, would I correct in assuming that you are of the opinion that all development outside of Manthria should be stopped and everyone should solely direct our energies towards Manthrian development?

If you do mean that, no need to read on, as the following part of this will not be worth reading and responding to. If you don't mean that, please correct me and state precisely what you do mean.

Now then, the Blessed Sea Elves entry currently claims they are on the eastern shoreline of Northern Sarvonia and that they are the only traders in all of Northern Sarvonia. If I end up revising the entry, I will be looking to correct those two (very obvious) mistakes. They are on the western shoreline, not eastern, and they are not the only traders in Northern Sarvonia. Would you have a problem with that being included in an update on the tribal entry? Would that constitute me not respecting the work done by Drogo? Or would it be counted as me improving the entry, correcting details that should have been picked up at the time of the original entry submission by the people who reviewed it? What about if I were to expand on the work he did on the houses there? I love the concept of those houses ... so different to the tree houses of other elven tribes ... and I would simply look to extend them somewhat. I don't have the information here at the moment ... I'd be happy to get it when I'm at home, but I'm at work, spending a few moments prior to going home for the week. What if I were to include more precise details of the locations of the cities of them ... especially now as I've given the islands names that some of their cities are on. Would all of those things be appropriate in your view, or would those changes constitute me not respecting his work?

What about other details I've got in my Eight Winds Bay entry that deal with the Elves? Would you later on require me to go back and change my entry? Thus, not 'respecting my work', as you tend to call it. What about entries by other authors that deal with the BSEs that is contradictory with what's in the current BSE entry? How would we solve that problem? As I see it, it would require us to say one of them fits us better than the other one.

Now then ... Wikipedia and others have a process whereby they track the versions of entries they have online. Maybe something like that is possible here? A table or something like that at the bottom of the entry that says this entry is revised as at (this date), it was based on an entry by (name) on (this date). With a link to the older entry, with the older entry in an archive or something that would mean we don't lose the history of entries in the site, and so forth like that.

Dek
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« Reply #9 on: 20 May 2011, 16:32:18 »

Of course I do not know, if absent authors are ok with altering their works or not, but as long as I do not know that, I will assume, they do, for it is better I do it, if not. What would be, if they were very caring also, and I dumped important ideas?

There is, or at least was an agreement, that old works should be respected as far as possible and only altered and changed if it is absolutely needed , that you should build upon them, and not replace them. Alt worded it much better above than I could. But that is of course much more difficult than taking what you like and skipping the rest. If that is not the case anymore, I want to hear that from Artimidor.

Concerning Manthria - please read more carefully what I wrote and don't impute what I have not said to me.

I won't discuss your sea elves with you here. Dig in the forum what was discussed about the development of the Santharian gods as Avatars etc and think about if that will fit to your concept of having lore about gods in the north coming from elves, who venerate only Ava.

Sorry Dek, I will not spend more time with this discussion, I have better things to do.

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« Reply #10 on: 20 May 2011, 20:00:13 »

And yet, they all manage to include a vowel! Funny that. Whereas Hl'f'ik does not after the HL. Hlavic is Huh-la-vic I'm assuming, but without that A? The closest you might get is the sound of someone vomiting. I think that my point stands.

Just to throw in my two sans on the whole language thing - Hlavic is not, in fact, pronoucned "huh-la-vic" as you suggest, but indeed "hla-vic". It is exactly people pronouncing his name as Huhlavic that is aggravating the writer of that site (among other mispronounciations). I feel I have the right to say this, considering that I did study Czech for four years + spent a year living in Prague, so I think I know what I'm talking about :)

Consider the following sentence. Let me tell you beforehand that this is actually a valid sentence in Czech (though admittedly a bit farfetched and really just there to illustrate a point)

Drz prst skrz krk.

Translated freely, it means "stick your finger in your throat". (literally it is "keep your finger through your throat" so you see my point). The thing is, they're all real czech words. They do not add vowels when they say them. For them, r is, in certain cases, a valid vowel, the reason being that it can be held for a long time (and some other rules which I don't remember off the top of my head and I don't have time to look them up ;)) Off the top of my head, I can think of an example where L is mixed inbetween consonants: blby (meaning nonsensical) and its noun counterpart blbost (nonsense, logically) As I said earlier, czech people don't add a vowel to pronounce it, l like r is considered in some cases to be a valid vowel. (m is a similar case)

I'm not making any comment about whether you should or should not change these names, I'm just saying how it is - just because English people don't know this combination and therefore add a vowel doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And this happens in any slavic language, not just czech...

Dek: Talia very clearly states that she does not wish to focus ALL developing on Manthria, she would just have appreciated if Valan had posted a general request BEFORE starting revising runorian stuff, because that's the way his creative juices were flowing. Again, just my two sans :)
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Irid al'Menie
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« Reply #11 on: 20 May 2011, 20:53:45 »

Thank you for that Irid ... I missed it ... I asked for clarification on it ... thanks for clarifying it for me. Sorry for misreading what you said, Talia ... believe it or not as you wish, but it was an honest mistake.  sorry

So basically Irid, your sententence in Czech is telling someone to do somethat that would achieve a result that Valan suggests would be achieved if someone tried to pronounce that name? evil

Talia, maybe my questions here weren't clear, however I wasn't asking about the gods of the BSEs in here. I was asking in more general terms about the idea of preserving what has been done already. My using the Blessed Sea Elves was just an example. So, let me ask the questions in broader terms, without specific examples. And if Talia is too busy to answer them, maybe others can. These are genuine questions, ones I've wondered about for quite some time now. They aren't designed to make a point, they are there to help me understand the restrictions and boundaries better so I don't cross them unexpectedly and do work for nothing (my life is busy now, work is crazy, the finances at the place I'm working at are in a shambles, to put it politely). :D

If an existing entry states that such and such a place is north of another place, and the maps show it is clearly south of it ... and the author who wrote the entry is no longer around, would it be appropriate for someone else to update the entry to correct that incorrect information, or would that fall into the not respecting the original author's vision?

How about if subsequent to that original entry, other entries have been written which are now at odds with the original entry ... would it be appropriate to change the original entry or not?

If fiurther entries provide new information about something not in the entry on something else, if an update is made to it, would it be appropriate to change the original entry to include said new information? Or would that be deviating from the original view?

I understand, of course, if the original author is around that they'd need to be consulted first, so the above questions relate to entries where the original author is no longer active around the dream.

---

Personally, when I'm long gone from this place, I hope people do come along and improve on my entries, changing them to meet the needs of Santharia as they stand at that time. Especially, if they feel that my entries are cursory or laughable ... and I honestly do think that some of my entries are pure drivel. :D

In my view, stagnation is never a good thing. However, I also love history, and know it is important to preserve and remember the past, but build on it ... building on what others have done ... keeping what works, throwing out what doesn't. There was a suggestion I made in the entry that hasn't been commented on, but that is no doubt because its only been a few hours since it was posted, or it is an idea that won't work/will violate something on the site.

---

Hmmm ... R'unor is what this thread is supposedly about, and so I should probably at least mention the name here :) ... I've enjoyed the work that Valan (and M'Ruk) has done so far, as I have also enjoyed the work done by Xenos. In much the same way, I enjoy the work done by Drogo with regards to the BSEs. Some of what has been done isn't the way I would have done it, if I had done it, however, I'm not sure if I would have described the work of Xenos in the way that Valan described it ... but we all know Valan (well apart from the newest of us, of course)... and know his comments are blunter than his favourite butter knife and that he won't sugar coat his words. :D At least that way one knows where they stand with him.

- Dek
« Last Edit: 20 May 2011, 20:59:16 by Deklitch Hardin » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: 20 May 2011, 20:59:15 »

Seriously, Dek?  An obvious mistake in an entry?  When I read that argument from you, I just have to roll my eyes.  That is just silly and you know it.  Talia does not want to keep those mistakes in, nor does she want there to be no ability to revise.  You are just taking this to an absurd level.  Sorry your feeling got bruised by Talia's remark, but do try to be adult about this.

And that is not sugar coated from me, so you know where I stand.
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« Reply #13 on: 20 May 2011, 21:16:50 »

Altario, sorry, it was meant as a question, not an argument. Thanks for your answer, though.
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« Reply #14 on: 20 May 2011, 22:34:09 »

Quote
If an existing entry states that such and such a place is north of another place, and the maps show it is clearly south of it ... and the author who wrote the entry is no longer around, would it be appropriate for someone else to update the entry to correct that incorrect information, or would that fall into the not respecting the original author's vision?

If an entry's information is clearly incorrect, and this can be verified with other entry cross-references and maps, then I would say it is ok to correct the original entry. This is not disrespecting the author's original work, in fact, it is making it better and more accurate.

If someone came along in ten years and noted inaccuracies in my Kaaer entry and subsequent cross-reference entries, I would be glad they took the time to read them and correct them. But not to the extent of a re-write, if at all possible.

Quote
How about if subsequent to that original entry, other entries have been written which are now at odds with the original entry ... would it be appropriate to change the original entry or not?

An investigation would have to be done as to why subsequent entries were allowed to be written that disagreed with the original entry...If both the original author and the subsequent entry author were no longer active, then I would agree to have the entries somewhat agree to each other by making small changes rather than large re-writes. It depends on the particular situation.

Quote
If fiurther entries provide new information about something not in the entry on something else, if an update is made to it, would it be appropriate to change the original entry to include said new information? Or would that be deviating from the original view?

Old entries can be added to with deeper historical timelines, cross-references and additional detail. Many of my entries are updates, re-writes and revisions of older entries (Pendrowe, Netherbeast, Mystran, Mindsmoothers, Imps etc). In my cases, the original author's works were kept - including 95% of original wording at least - while I just wrote and added around the original stuff.

The only exception where I completely changed an entry (if you call about a paragraph of information an entry...) was the Kaaer. The original stub described evil humans who migrated to Caaehl'heroth from R'unor. You can see what I developed from that single idea...but I presented good reasons to change it and my concept for the North was seen as a worthwhile investment. And now look where Caaehl'heroth is today!

PS = +1 aura for Irid because I learned something interesting from her post above!  grin
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