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Author Topic: R'unorian Basics- Discussion  (Read 12319 times)
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Valan Nonesuch
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« on: 27 May 2011, 05:07:15 »

My initial deliberations over all things R'unorian have hit a snag.

Namely, where did these people come from?

The existing Blaar'kr entry says that they are one of nine human tribes in the kingdom. There are also orcs, listed in the R'unorian Kingdom Entry, and half-orcs. This explains the rather strange colouring in some cases.
This means that the R'unorians tribes are either very small or very homogeneous, neither makes great sense.

There are three human tribes on site right now, but they aren't fully developed. Part of me wants to cut out half of the human "tribes". Nine tribes would be detracting from each other in this space, and logically would have developed into larger, more homogeneous groups. Four human tribes and the orcs could be a solid number though.

Which still puts the question of what the human stock of the R'unorian kingdom was originally.
Looking at the tribal migration maps, R'unor isn't dealt with. No arrows moving anywhere. That covers up to 9500 b.S. Which gives 11000 some odd years until the present.

So where and when did they get there.

There's a few possibilities. The orcs could be related to the Orcristh orcs of Nybelmar. They're the nearest and they don't have much history listed on site.

The humans could also be Nybelmarian, but then there's a snag.

Right smack in the middle of an otherwise simple and plausible series of names, we have mountains named in Styrash.
The Hylph'xan'ian'kroi Mountains. Which according to Xenos' R'unorian Kingdom entry means "gazing longingly at the method of our destruction". It does mean that, to some extent. It's seems like dog-styrash though. A bunch of styrash terms that don't look like they've been conjugated, just plucked out of the dictionary and attached with apostrophes.

Does that mean that there's elvish influence somewhere? The name I assume refers to the two large volcanoes on R'unor, which makes sense.

I had drafted a version of the tribe's history which, in retrospect doesn't quite work.. It assumes that the orcs were native to R'unor, or at least well-settled before the arrival of the human tribes, and the two fought over resources. The humans would have been refugees in the year of darkness, and those that knew how to sail fled elsewhere rather than, becoming the P'thia and other tribe, leaving the fighters and others stranded on R'unor with the orcs.

The humans flee to the nearest island, G'lara and build up there, before moving back to the "mainland" of R'unor. These would of course, be the ancestors of the R'mart (the people in charge) and the Blaar'kr (their hereditary allies, and the foot soldiers in this movement). They build up the knowledge to build boats over the next decade until they manage to sail off to the other islands. They find the P'thia and other tribe already ensconced here, and begin forcibly unifying the R'unorian chain, before returning to R'unor itself and subjugating the orcs (the Unification of R'unor).

I'm not sure how this work out from either a Nybelmarian or historical perspective. Is there even enough time? I don't want to step on anyone's toes when developing, and I don't want to miss out on possible good ideas. So, any suggestions?
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #1 on: 27 May 2011, 05:21:22 »

Information on Site:
  • R'unor contains orcs that have been assimilated into a largely human culture.
  • Human-orc inter-breeding has occured.
  • The kingdom was at some point, unified into its present shape.
  • The mountains are named in Styrash.
  • The R'unorians have a paranoid, xenophobic culture as of the present, and have reason to assassinate each other.
  • The Blaar'kr make up more than one half of 'nine' human tribes.
  • R'unor possess both advanced magic and technology "to rival the Aeoliran (Memnoor) Brownies"
  • R'unorian culture is matriarchal
  • R'unorian culture possess a word equivalent to harem.
  • R'unorian government was once an absolute monarchy

What can be inferred from what is on site:
  • Humans have assimilated elements of orcish culture (the names of one or two of the gods sound distinctly orcish)
  • Orcs might have been technically advanced.
  • R'unor is not rich in iron, either because it is difficult to obtain or short in supply.
  • There is something of incredible value in or around the city of Bluesteel.
  • Bluesteel may or may not be devoted to mining.
  • R'unor may have had elves at some point.
  • R'unor has not always been a coherent political entity.
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #2 on: 27 May 2011, 05:26:49 »

I don't like spreading half-orcs around like they are normal. It diminishes my tribe that was supposed to be one of a kind.  :(
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Deklitch Hardin
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« Reply #3 on: 27 May 2011, 05:39:48 »

Azhira, I think it has already occurred on R'unoria, but I'm not sure.

Also, killing half orcs on LOTRo is fun :D ... Four or five shots of my bow and bye bye half orc :D
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #4 on: 27 May 2011, 06:00:27 »

Your list looks good, you have invested a lot of time to dig through all this, it seems. You have more work to do though, until you have sorted the stuff out! Good luck!

I just wonder why you deal with R'unor at all - you seem to be not very fond of Xenos works, reading your comments.


To some of your questions:

Migration maps: We wanted to cover just the big scale movements, so you are free to look, what could fit for R'unor, if you don't find anything altready on the site. But seeing this list above, you certainly have read everything you could find. Consider Akdor also, R'unor is on the way from Sarvonia to Ak'dor, maybe there was a link somewhen. Look what is written in the thread with the migration maps also.

E.G:

Quote
Major changes caused by the War of the Chosen

- Landmasses NW of F'v'cl'r disappear, the Eight Winds Bay is formed.
- Argor, Hckra and Norong'Sorno come into existence (Narfost Cliffs?).
- Tandala Mountains are formed.
- Major settlements south of the Thaelon (near the two volcanoes) vanish.
- Ice Elves of the Forest of Contamar at the peninsula of Iol are (nearly) extinct.
- Nybelmar and Aeruillin are seperated from Sarvonia.
- The ties between Avennoria and Shan'Thai are severed.
- Climate in the region of the Darians (Pre-Shendar) more and more changes. The land turns into a desert.
- Knowledge on Yamalquain gets lost.
- Akdor is separated from Northern Sarvonia.
- Center of culture west of Shan'Thai (now Yar'Dangs) vanishes.


Maybe R'unor was formed at this time also? Or lost a lot of land, or maybe it was all one big island which was submersed and the islands came into existence?
Don't know, what the entries say. But maybe you could juggle there a bit.


Quote
The existing Blaar'kr entry says that they are one of nine human tribes in the kingdom. There are also orcs, listed in the R'unorian Kingdom Entry, and half-orcs. This explains the rather strange colouring in some cases.
This means that the R'unorians tribes are either very small or very homogeneous, neither makes great sense.

I don't understand your last sentence here..  

Quote
There are three human tribes on site right now, but they aren't fully developed. Part of me wants to cut out half of the human "tribes". Nine tribes would be detracting from each other in this space, and logically would have developed into larger, more homogeneous groups. Four human tribes and the orcs could be a solid number though.

If you think, that nine tribes are too many, make them subtribes. Why detracting? Isn't that a chance, to develop nine tribes which have of course something in common, but could be very different also. Different customs, different clothes, different words in their language.. in the middleage conformity was not such a given fact than today. Each village was different from each other. Ten strals away, the houses had a different shape etc, each valley a different dialect.

Ok, enough, I don't have the time to dive in R'unor and read all entries.

I think it would be a good idea, if you were looking for somebody who would help you with R'unor, somebody with whom you could talk out such problems, decide what should be and so on.  

One last thing: Dek asked, what can be changed in an old entry, when, etc

My answer for one of your problems, the elvish names of the mountains, as an example:

Try to think of a way, how you could implement the elves there, though they had to be in contact with the human/orc, so that the name was preserved. Maybe they were there at some time and vanished then. However, if you have ideas for a great society, where this would not fit at all, skip them, make orcish words out of them. Or just mention, that the names sound so elvish, but it is a puzzle till today. Just don't do it with an easy hand, but think twice!

To your dog-styrash - I find this remark a bit condescending. Maybe there didn't any styrash principle exist , when this entry was written? Or it is a different form?

OK, that is all from me, now you have to grab some others to help you with this enormous task.

Good luck! Have fun!

Edit: True, those half orcs were there before Azhira's even existed ;)

Edit2: An aura for work which does not directly lead to an entry, but needs to be done nevertheless. 
« Last Edit: 27 May 2011, 06:06:03 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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Deklitch Hardin
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« Reply #5 on: 27 May 2011, 06:33:17 »

A thought or three from me with regards to the tribes and so forth ... to be fair, some of these are actually from others in IRC
- something akin to what Eddings did to the Melcenes in Mallorean, perhaps? Melcenes once had a lot of land, then during the 'cracking of the world' by Torak, they lost a lot of their lands, and it became islands. So they needed extra land ... and so they went ashore to mainland Mallorea and sought out land there ... after discussing it endlessly through committees. and they went to war with the tribes there (not Malloreans) to get the land.
- tribes might be smaller than the tribes elsewhere ... birth control/families can only have 1 child (a link to China's one child policy, perhaps?)
- tribes are actually families, and some have gone extinct


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« Reply #6 on: 27 May 2011, 10:04:07 »

I'm thinking you should go just sub tribes like Talia suggested, clans more or less.  I got 12 in the Icelands, which is a very small area.  They are linked by heritage, religion and language, and each one is only slightly different from the others.  You could do more or less the same thing.
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #7 on: 06 June 2011, 06:51:55 »

Quote
Quote
The existing Blaar'kr entry says that they are one of nine human tribes in the kingdom. There are also orcs, listed in the R'unorian Kingdom Entry, and half-orcs. This explains the rather strange colouring in some cases.
This means that the R'unorians tribes are either very small or very homogeneous, neither makes great sense.
I don't understand your last sentence here.. 
Quote
Quote
There are three human tribes on site right now, but they aren't fully developed. Part of me wants to cut out half of the human "tribes". Nine tribes would be detracting from each other in this space, and logically would have developed into larger, more homogeneous groups. Four human tribes and the orcs could be a solid number though.
If you think, that nine tribes are too many, make them subtribes. Why detracting? Isn't that a chance, to develop nine tribes which have of course something in common, but could be very different also. Different customs, different clothes, different words in their language.. in the middleage conformity was not such a given fact than today. Each village was different from each other. Ten strals away, the houses had a different shape etc, each valley a different dialect.

Homogenous is this case means that there's little difference. Appearances, customs and other such things will be so similar that it would be next to impossible to distinguish between Tribe A and Tribe B.

Making them subtribes doesn't solve the problem either. I am either to further bulldoze over Xenos' work (the statistic that over half of the R'unorian Kingdom is comprised of Blaar'kr is his) or be left with groups that aren't so much "tribes" as visible minorities. 44% of the population divided eight ways leaves each group with 5.5% of the population.
Even placing each of these eight groups as sub-tribes (and eight is generous, I'm assuming 56% of the human population, leaving out orcish or half-orcish influences) any diversity would be forced and artificial. Changing that to 44% of the human population among 4 groups gives double that for each (11%) group. Either way, Xenos is wrong.

Quote
To your dog-styrash - I find this remark a bit condescending. Maybe there didn't any styrash principle exist , when this entry was written? Or it is a different form?
The point I wished to make, Talia, was not to insult anyone, as you seem so ready to assume. I meant that it was "dog-styrash" in the same sense that spells in Harry Potter or even Prachett's own "Quia ego sic dico" (as famously featured in Coren's signature) are "dog latin" it looks like Styrash but isn't actually Styrash in any way shape or form. Regardless of whether or not the Styrash Principles were there when Xenos (or whomever) named those mountains, by current standards they aren't named in proper Styrash.

While I appreciate your comments, I find it takes a great deal of patience to avoid simply lashing out again and again when you feel the need to view every other comment I make about R'unor in a decidedly negative light. I'm merely addressing the "squeaky wheels" so to speak, of this brobdingnagian task, before they become deeply engrained problems that require more work to fix than is sane or proper.

I'm thinking you should go just sub tribes like Talia suggested, clans more or less.  I got 12 in the Icelands, which is a very small area.  They are linked by heritage, religion and language, and each one is only slightly different from the others.  You could do more or less the same thing.
With all due respect Alt, you've got more space. The islands that the Himiko possess are the size of half the R'unorian isles put together. As is, I can't put nine tribes on a map with each of them possessing a single settlement, if the Blaar have 56%.


So, in short, this:
Quote
Let's concentrate on what we have instead of developing the 1467th race or tribe. Thanx for understanding, but this is a necessary measure we have to take. Quality beats quantity. Let's go for more depth!
I don't see this as a chance to develop nine different tribes, because frankly, that's what got it into this mess in the first place. I would rather see four human tribes that could be worked on, brought to fruition with individuality, so that each tribe is unique and well-developed, rather than it turning into "like the other guys but" situation. I'd rather bring the three tribes that are on the site now, up to the quality of other entries, like the Kaaer'dar'shin (which Azhira rescued from being a tribe of "Black Nights" that assassinated things) or the Kyranians. That is the important part. The idea that there are nine tribes is not.


But that wasn't the discussion's purpose. I suppose I should send some PMs to a Nybelmarian developer or two and see where they sit on the R'unorian's origins.
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #8 on: 07 June 2011, 03:01:46 »

All this reading and verbage and tiny quote boxes has made me lose the point of the question...

Quote
I don't see this as a chance to develop nine different tribes, because frankly, that's what got it into this mess in the first place. I would rather see four human tribes that could be worked on, brought to fruition with individuality, so that each tribe is unique and well-developed, rather than it turning into "like the other guys but" situation. I'd rather bring the three tribes that are on the site now, up to the quality of other entries, like the Kaaer'dar'shin (which Azhira rescued from being a tribe of "Black Nights" that assassinated things) or the Kyranians. That is the important part. The idea that there are nine tribes is not.

This. I think a long time ago, it was popular to create a billion tribes occupying a small space for the sake of it because it was cool *Icelands tribes cough*.

Less tribes that are developed is best. Or else you end up with ONE developed tribe and a billion other tribes in name only *Ice Tribes cough*.

THEN you end up later with EACH tribe having their own gods...*please not Ice Tribes cough*

My advice - put forth your ideas for tribes and just do it. Do your best effort to keep Xenos' ideas, but seriously, if they don't work, throw them out. Do what Azhira does: Make it happen.
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« Reply #9 on: 07 June 2011, 04:40:19 »

Not that I have any sans to offer on this subject, but I've already typed this out- so I might as well 'clicky' the post button...

Generally speaking, I figure initially things start out as:
Family = Tribe
Family marries another family(or two) = Bigger tribe, incorporation/mixing and slight-mutation of physical attributes, cultural customs, behaviours, beliefs, social norms, habits, affinity-for's, emotional depth, defining characteristics, quirks and faults, ect.
Family/Tribe grows and seeks more land to live, runs into other family/tribes, fights or/and absorbs = Further incorporation/mixing and slight-mutation of blah-de-blah-de-blaaah, ect.

Just figure out which ones would best hold pinkies with each other heart, and which ones would be able to dominate the area they're in, pit them against each other and see who wins. Then for the history of how each tribe came to be, as you back-track to the previous families and mini-tribes that your well-developed few are brewed of- just boil them down until they're *BLIP!* back where the land was just a huge glob of dirt in a giant plate of water.
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #10 on: 09 June 2011, 05:01:46 »

I think I've detected a quasi-erpheronian influence in the "naming scheme" of R'unorians already on site. A possible source for these tribes?
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« Reply #11 on: 09 June 2011, 19:15:19 »

R'unor needed a rewrite for years. I think even the location of the islands got moved around alot until they ended up north of Nybelmar between Akdor and Nybelmar. I'd suggest to extrapolate from the mannerisms but redevelop the actual tribes. The basics of it are based on a version of Santharia just as many years ago and plenty of things have changed.

E.g. the whole orcish thing is mainly based on them being partly greenskinned so instead of a fact one could make this an explanation and all similarities are actually just their ethnic traits developed in an entirely isolated area. Downgrade tribes to clans/families/houses etc.

Overall the concept of them was that of a fantastical seagoing people who ride huge turtles in place of ships, tamed flying bugs instead of Gryphons and they live on strange islands where things are really, really weird. I'd blame it on the islands being in a area of void influence or some such (maybe them theoretically being pushed into this world through the void in a cataclystic event, don't know the current state on void physics though). I think otherwise some basic idea was just that them and the Santerrans make seagoing in the western sea a bit risky and that those two nations consider themselves the big naval players and have a big rivalry.

Overall imo the basic essence of that place was supposed to be is that it is as fantastic and surreal to Santharians as Santharia is to us, even for Nybelmarians R'unor should be very strange.
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #12 on: 09 June 2011, 19:47:50 »

Giant turtles you say. Well... evil
*considers the implication of mounting siege weapons to the back of a giant turtle*
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« Reply #13 on: 09 June 2011, 21:59:05 »

*Sick!*   

(now the Bard badly wants to sketch a wonderlandish/steampunk'ed illustration of a giant turtle with a ballista bolted to its ancient carapace....)
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« Reply #14 on: 09 June 2011, 22:00:42 »

All I can say, is "if you draw it, they will come"

So! Whale sized turtles! I'm going to need a lot of plants.
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