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Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
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« Reply #15 on: 09 June 2011, 22:08:33 »

*Shrugs* Use krill (or equivalent); problem solved.

Wait...they need plants. Dammit.

Problem no longer solved. Sorry to bother.
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« Reply #16 on: 09 June 2011, 22:59:31 »

*Sick!*   

(now the Bard badly wants to sketch a wonderlandish/steampunk'ed illustration of a giant turtle with a ballista bolted to its ancient carapace....)

Yes this. plz plz plz plz  grin

I REALLY want to see flying rideable bugs!
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« Reply #17 on: 10 June 2011, 00:33:11 »

Giant turtles you say. Well... evil
*considers the implication of mounting siege weapons to the back of a giant turtle*

I think this was an idea to replace the dreadnaught ships described in the navy and make them more different. That and because R'unor has a turtle as coat of arms.
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« Reply #18 on: 17 June 2011, 03:08:19 »

I have nothing against giant sea creatures. They don't have the same restrictions around the square-cube law that land dwelling creatures do.

Sadly, Azhira, the giant bugs aren't flying anymore. They're super strong though.

After some hashing out both on my own and in IRC the following origins have been "decoded"

So at the moment, I'm leaning towards an erpheronian base for the R'unorian tribes, using a variation of the "shipwrecked" theory there.

If the Nybelmarian developers don't mind, I'd like to place a *very* small group of elves there sometime during the past. No more than one hundred individuals.

The projected history (without dates) is that the Erpheronians, fleeing the Dragonstorm, crash onto R'unor. Their ships are ruined.
They find the elves their numbers thinned and weakended from destruction caused when one of the volcanoes erupted and a war of attrition with the orcs. The humans number several hundred individuals, men, women and children.

Out of necessity the elves and humans band together, since the elves already have some of the things the humans need. The elves eventually thin out, and die either in further fighting with the orcs or through interbreeding with the humans. The humans eventually drive back the orcs, but fall into disarray without the influence of elves or the pressure of the orcs to unify them and scatter throughout the islands.

The R'mart tribe and the Blarr'kr tribes are already fairly close, but the numbers of the former and the leadership of the latter are diminished, leading to the (now traditional) relation between the two tribes. They subjugate or kill the remaining orcs on the island of R'unor, and bring any rebellious humans under their rule.

But neither the R'mart or Blaar'kr tribe is particularly adept at sailing. They eventually cobble together a sort of galleon and set out to conquer the rest of R'unor. This results in a fair bit of fighting during which the various factions of R'unor evolve. The P'thia are eventually the tribe that domesticates the giant turtles, while the unnamed fourth tribe well I don't have anything for them to do. The giant-turtle domestication comes a little too late however, the Blaar'kr take control of the P'thia and their new tools leading to the evolution of the turtle-dreadnaughts, which brings the islands firmly under the control of the R'mart/Blaar'kr alliance and sets the stage for the first empress.

Recent history: I'll have to revise some of my projections. R'unor has a civil war however. One of the Empresses has a particularly gruesome vendetta against orcs and half-orcs and, like any good tyrant, creates her own worst enemy.
In this case, Mogh the Half-Orcen, along with an army of orcish, the poor (who share the same space as most orcs) and demi-orcs, through a bit of subterfuge storms the gates of the Imperial Palace in R'unor and captures the empress. He has her flayed in an ironic manner (see the Bleeding Empress) and crowns himself Emperor of R'unor.

Mogh reigns for five-ten years, during which he abolishes the larger part of the restrictions against orcs and men. He also sets up some unfortunate consequences down the line that lead to a brief state of famine in the outer isles two empresses later. This is what has led to the current R'unorian situation.

Mogh's reign is cut short by a coalition that installs Kirvana the Flameseer as Empress and forces the restriction of certain imperial powers, before dividing up the remaining region of government and forming a triumvirate. The Empress is nominally the head of state, but her decisions can be overruled by a vote of no less than 65% of the triumvirate members. From there, we have the line of Flameseer, leading up to the present.


The Blaar'kr are probably the furthest from the original stock of the Erpheronians. The highest proportion of orcish blood is found here without being true half-orcs, which gives them an odd "palate" of colours.

The R'mart on the other hand, are largely descended from the limited breeding with the elves.
Experimentation with the Elven Aging Calculator and an Iferhem base shows that it takes ten generations from an initial half-elf child, only marrying and having children with humans, in order to dilute the effect of this to the point where it isn't highly noticeable.

At 6% (Fourth generation of strictly human interbreeding) the average R'mart would live to 106, while less than 2% gives an individual an extra 7 years of life.
Assuming this holds true, the initial half-elves (50%) would have lived long enough to command the war with the orcs and the Unification of R'unor. Their children (25%) would have lived to establish a very firm foundation for R'unor.

On average, the nobility is between 6 and 3 percent elven blood. The R'unorian nobility is essentially determined by race.

The P'thia are probably the closest to their original stock. Any orcish blood is so thoroughly washed that there isn't much to work with. They're darker, probably from the climate. They're also the best navigators, being among the group that left R'unor after the war with the orcs ended.

The fourth tribe is still a mystery.
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« Reply #19 on: 17 June 2011, 03:29:21 »

Hmm... Sure, we can have Erpheronians crash-land on R'unor and mingle. But it won't make sense to have them as the 'originators':

1) Runor is much closer to Nybelmar than to Sarvonia. Why didn't Nybelmarian nations chance upon it first? Also, remember that in those ancient times Nybelmar had a lot of very powerful and advanced civilisations. So, not only were they geographically closer but they probably had superior sea-faring technology at the time too. (Things are of course different nowadays - from the birth of the Santharian kingdom onwards, the centre of "scientific" progress/ technological advancement seems to have shifted from Nybelmar to Santharia.

(The "Golden Age" of Nybelmar was way before the Dragonstorm, whereas that of Santharia is after it.)


2) If memory serves, there are already quite a few references (maybe on the site? probably on forum discussions) to  interaction between various of these ancient Nybelmarian nations and the inhabitants of R'unor. I don't think the actual composition of those inhabitants has ever been discussed/decided but it seems to be a development fact/assumption that R'unor was not an empty island as the time.


In other words: yes, current Runorians can have some Erph ancestory BUT Erpheronians cannot be the first ones to have colonised Runor. (A bit like Irish Americans - a lot of Americans have Irish ancestors but the continent was populated way before they got there.)


I'm quite tired tonight so I might have misread/misinterpreted what you had in mind. Please let me know if I misunderstood your proposal :)
« Last Edit: 17 June 2011, 03:31:39 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: 17 June 2011, 03:46:17 »

No worries there Coren. I just jumped on the naming scheme. The erpheronians are essentially unneeded, just a convenient source of people.

As it is, the original plan had Krean crash-landing, but just about anyone would do. I could migrate the whole plot to include them in place of the Erpheronians, which makes a bit more sense. The justification isn't necessarily important at this point. I need to know who's there before I justify their arrival. Could you identify the Nybelmarian Golden Age then?  That'd give me a good place for my timeline to start.

The really important part is putting a small group of elves there and figuring out if the orcs migrated or if they've been there since the war of the chosen. I've been using the Iferhem on the assumption that they're the most likely group to want to get out of the forest.

Most of that post is really for my benefit. Others poking holes in it is one of those benefits since it helps shore up the next iteration, so feel free Coren et al.


edit:


Looking at the timeline, the Iferhem seem the ideal group for this. If the Co'or'hem tried to go genocidal on them, fleeing to R'unor wouldn't be a bad idea. That would lessen the numbers already, and would suggest a good starting point for the R'unorian xenophobia and backstabbing.
« Last Edit: 17 June 2011, 04:13:19 by Valan Nonesuch » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: 17 June 2011, 04:34:03 »

Sure :) Let's see:

1) I don't mind which tribe(s) end(s) up on R'unor. It doesn't have to be the Krean. Anyone you deem fit should do. The key is that this should take place way, way, waaaaaay back.

As far as I'm concerned, the further back the better. Ideally, elves/orcs/somebody should be there from the War of the Chosen onwards (or a few centuries after that). The introduction of humans to the island can come much later - it just needs to have occurred by ca 3500BS (see Point 3 below). Again, ideally, it would have occurred ca4000BS or before.

If you want your chosen humans to enter the game much later, whichever civilisation was on R'unor before the humans would need to be pretty strong to explain why other Nybelmarian human empires etc never colonised R'unor before your chosen humans arrived.

2) Just brainstorming possible sources of humans ending up ship-wrecked on R'unor (you're free to choose some other tribe):

Aca-Santerrans perhaps? They're a sea-faring nation and already have dark skin. The only problem would be explaining R'unorian religion. Aca-Santerrans are religious zealots - they would have insisted on imposing their own religion by force or would have died out trying. So perhaps a group of "disgruntled" Acas - who were, well... disgruntled with the religious establishment on Aca-Santerra?


3) Given that Nybelmarian empires/nations never seem to have 'colonised' the island, I guess we can assume that R'unor must have become strong enough to fend for itself by then.

4) The golden age of "Nybelmar" is a bit tricky to pin down. We tried to have a shifting pattern: the "dark ages" of the western half of the continent would correspond to a "golden age" in the east, with the 'light of civilisation' shifting from one half to the other and back again over the centuries.

Generalising, we could say that throughout the 4500-2000BS period there would have been several powerful states on Nybelmar. There certainly would have been numerous "golden ages" in that period, but where exactly and under which empire would change based on which "slice" of the timeline you look at.

5) Sure. Feel free to insert any elven tribe of your choosing. The Iferhem might not be the best choice though (if you want the elves to be there before the orcs and humans), as they only came into being around 2800BS. There should be a timeline discussion thread somewhere in the Nybelmar board. It is incomplete and would not cover everything, but might have a few useful nuggets here and there.

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« Reply #22 on: 17 June 2011, 04:43:43 »

Oh, I forgot to mention. At some point there was (or will be) a third "War of Darkness" (I forget what it's called) on Nybelmar. The bad guys were meant to be based on Essalui Thareliath. Mira, Smith and I started planning it ages ago but it never progressed far if I recall correctly.

Once you get the basics established, you can decide whether you want R'unor to take part in that or not. If so, when the time comes, we can always open a discussion-come-team-project thread to discuss what exactly we want to have in this Third Shadow War (THAT'S it... that was the name). Mira and I had a few cool ideas ;)
If you've played LOMSE, think Balkoth (actually: several Balkoths) - but riding giant stingrays instead of a giant bat..

I don't know how close R'unor is to Thareliath so I'm not sure whether or not they too would have been dragged into that war.
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« Reply #23 on: 17 June 2011, 05:01:08 »

1) That's good. Having a free hand there helps a little.

2)
I did consider the Aca-Santerrans but the religious aspect did seem to be a bit of a bust. The krean seem ideal in one sense because there's a reason for cultural bleed-over and religious change.
The important elements are that they need to have a reason to not return to the mainland Nybelmar, the shipwreck of course presenting ideal reasons for several problems.

3) Which means then that whatever R'unorian colony existed might have possessed the turtle-dreadnaughts already?
Or else some other way to defend themselves. Either way they were established. Gives good background for a places entry or two.

4) Okay, so keying the colonization of R'unor to near one of those Dark Ages might not be a bad idea. Allows the colony there to become estranged and learn to fend for itself.
This might not be a simple question to answer so don't feel particularly obliged to reply if you can't, but are we talking about a gradual decline into the Dark Ages? Civilization reaching the peak of it's achievement and sliding into decadence and decay, someone playing the harp while everything burns? or a sudden fall that leaves everything in chaos?
I might have to pick a section before that one has an answer anyways.

5) The Iferhem need not be there beforehand. Having a group of battered iferhem show up during the year of darkness could work as well.

6) Depends on R'unor's attachment to the sides involved. They might feel the need to provide support for parties on one side simply to ensure their own survival. A case of "if this goes badly, we're threatened directly" obligations. They might want to protect trade with other nations. I'd be happy to participate if/when that discussion occurs.
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« Reply #24 on: 17 June 2011, 05:05:48 »

OMG - at this rate the Krean will have covered the surface of the disk :P It seems whenever someone lifts a rock, there ends up being some Krean ancestry, however remote, behind it. People will think I'm trying to take over Caelereth  evil
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« Reply #25 on: 17 June 2011, 06:22:57 »

Well, that was the original plan. Now that I know that I've got a free hand I can look into more advantageous groups. And I'm not behind the content filter so I can look through the site now. I'll try to avoid the Krean if you prefer.


Edit: On further examination, the Santerrans might do just fine. They're almost ideally placed. The suggestion Koldar/Rakshiri made was that the R'unor and Aca-Santerra would be in competition for sea control. I think they might also be in contest with the Anapagans over the Crimson Isles. Those turtle dreadnaughts are going to prove interesting to develop.
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« Reply #26 on: 17 June 2011, 09:43:03 »


Edit of the edit: There's no history section for the Santerrans, but the Kingdom of Aca-Santerra has one here. That shows the Santerrans arriving in the east in 3500 b.S. The R'unorians could have been a part of that migration that got lost. They're also apparently godless at this point, so we don't have the typical Santerran religious zealotry. I think the easiest overall solution would be that parts of R'unor were colonised by the Kayr before the Great Unrest. The Kayr's great empire fell apart during the hundred years before, the connection with R'unor would be gone.

So the elves have been there at least a hundred years. In all likelihood much longer than that. When the Great Unrest hits, orcs show up. From where isn't important at this point. Maybe these are the ancestors of the Orcristh? They aren't due to show up for another 1500 years in any case. They're savage, intelligent and numerous, and the elves aren't in a position to send for reinforcements.

They fall into a war of attrition for the next century, skirmishing with the orcs. Perhaps some will attempt to return to The Emerald Wood during this period, and thin the numbers further. The Santerrans stumble into this mess, and side with the elves against the orcs. The elves have been at it a while, but the humans have the numbers they need. They fight the orcs together, and kill or subjugate them. The elves are the leaders in this case, they already know the orcs, and the island of R'unor. They arm the Santerrans. To the Santerrans, these elves are rulers.

The elves are diminished at this point. The Santerrans fan out through R'unor, giving rise to the assorted tribes. The R'mart's ancestors are the smallest faction at this point. They live closely with the remaining elves, and some interbreeding occurs. Over the next century as the other tribes establish themselves, the Kayr either interbreed or die off. This is where the R'mart leadership is derived from. The Blaar'kr see them as the heirs to the Kayr, and take what they perceive as their natural place as the strong right arm of the R'mart.

Cue the Unification. At this point, the Kayr are either dead or they've retreated into seclusion. By the time the first Empress is installed they are a non-entity.
Everything else should follow as listed above.
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« Reply #27 on: 17 June 2011, 16:17:34 »

Hi Valan - some of that is not correct. I'll address them later today :)
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« Reply #28 on: 17 June 2011, 19:54:26 »

No worries there. I was sure I'd jump to one or two wrong conclusions along the way, or stumble across bad information.
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« Reply #29 on: 17 June 2011, 20:44:53 »

1) See my post above: Somebody (which in your case is the Kayr I think) has to be there from the War of the Chosen onwards. The Kayr moving in ca 3600 is too late. Looking at the Kayrrhem history table, this seems like a good opportunity:

Quote
9000BS: The War of the Chosen
The Emerald Woods that covered most parts of the western Menéchrónn are burnt and many elves die. The Kaýr lead together with the last three of the human tribes the last battle against Menemrónn, the greatest Chosen of Nybelmar. After the war is won the Kaýr begin to rebuild the forests and the destroyed lands, they're betrayed by Kyras the Dark and lose faith in all other races and tribes but the Korweynites who continue to fight the evil seeds of Coór like the Kaýr do.

So, we could build on that and say: After this betrayal a group of Kayr got so tired of shepherding humans and whatnot that they decided to abandon the Emerald Woods all together and set off to find some virgin land free from all these short-lived, short-sighted and often short-tempered races.

This also gives you a nice little historical irony to play with: They ran all the way to R'unor just to get away from humans - and then had to turn to those shipwrecked Aca-Santerrans for help against the orc invasions!

2) The Orcristh history on the site is slightly misleading. It simply says that just before the Year of Darkneess (Dragonstorm) the thirty year Orcal Wars took place between the Kingdom of Orcal and the Krath Empire. Even though the history table is silent on their origins, since those orcs have always been an arch enemy of the Krath Empire, it is safe to assume that they would have been around for much longer. I'd say they are a very very old civilisation.

We tried once with Alysse to rework the timeline but there were too many undecided variables. We might have to haul that project back up again.


3) To sum up with very broad brush strokes:

- ca 9000: A group of Kayr are the first to settle on R'unor.

- ???: Orcs show up (They can't be the ancestors of the Orcristh as those orcs have been around for a very, very long time. More like their descendants - or perhaps a group "exiled" from the Orcal Kingdom? Some sort of "house-clearing" political move by a new leader?)

- ca 3500: enter the Santerrans. This is pretty serendipitous actually - nice find Valan!

Quote
ca 3500BS: The Immigration of the Santerrans
The Santerrans are said to immigrate from the east on the islands east of Nybelmar: The Santerrans say their ancestors escaped a great threat east of the continent. In their suffering they pleaded one god - any god! - to help them out of their misery and they would worship him till the end of the world.

That would explain why R'unorians and Aca-Santerrans are both rather "enthusiastic" when it comes to religion but actually have different sets of deities. They called upon the gods - any gods - in desperation; the group that became the Aca-Santerrans got a call back from Barkhas, those that became the R'unorians from a different pantheon :P


Question: Do you want the humans or the orcs on R'unor first?

Hope that helps :)
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