* 
Welcome Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?


*
gfxgfx Home Forum Help Search Login Register   gfxgfx
gfx gfx
gfx
Pages: 1 [2] 3
Print
Author Topic: Religious Magic  (Read 12407 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Shabakuk Zeborius Anfang
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 192
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.318



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: 13 June 2011, 01:29:31 »

It looks interesting, Talia! It's a big aspiration to summarize all, or almost all, 'religious magic' on Caelereth.

I've got a few naive questions for you, which may or may not help:


You define religious magic as the interaction between a believer and a god. I assume, though, that this interaction will also produce an effect. For example, a Nehtorian priest may call upon Nehtor to help him heal someone. Am I right?
If that's so, my naive question is: Who is doing the healing? The Nehtorian priest (by the grace of his god), or Nehtor (in response to the prayer of his devout follower)?
To put this question in a more general form: is religious magic the performance of miracles (ie, the earthly being does them with the grace of their god), or is it divine intervention on request from a believer? Or maybe should we say that the believer is the channel through which the god acts?


I would love to read some examples of what actual religious magic looks like. Another naive question, then: What sort of effects are achieved with religious magic? How powerful are these effects? Maybe give an example of what a cleric of Nehtor can do, or what a servant of Etherus can do, etc.?


Also: Is the power of the magic dependent on the piousness or strength or pure-heartedness of the cleric/believer, or is the power of the magic ascribed entirely to the god's will? For example: why can a cleric do magic, but a five year-old girl's prayer for her sick brother is not heard by the god?


Like all magic, I assume that an attempt at religious magic may fail. How is failure interpreted? Who, if anyone, is blamed?


Could it be that (some) clerics do not speak of magic, but of "miracles"? "Nethor's deeds"? "Nehtor's grace"?


Maybe the sections that are yet to come will answer some of these questions. If they are not useful for your writing process, feel free to ignore however many of these questions you wish to ignore.

Looking forward to reading the next bits,

Shabakuk
Logged

The greatest danger in life is that you may take too many precautions.
Ding-dong!
Deklitch Hardin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 103
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.758


Elf friend


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: 14 June 2011, 10:02:43 »

A few simple questions ... how close is this entry finished? There seem to be lots of headings without information underneath them. I can only assume that it is unfinished. Talia, maybe you could indicate what areas you consider are finished so that people can direct their comments to those parts? Finally, could you please change that dark blue colour you use in places to a different colour, one that is easy to read against the dark background?

To me, this is being done in the wrong way ... to me individual religions and pantheons should be developed and then brought together into an overarching entry like this, rather than the other way around. For example, if someone comes up with an idea for their religion that most people think is great, and a useful addition, would this entry subsequently be changed to cater for any necessary changes to the way that this overarching entry describes Religious Magic? Or would they not be able to have it in their entry?

Like Valan ... I prefer to work from the specific to the general, rather than from the general to the specific ... which is a different method of working to what seems to be the norm, but still the way that I find it easiest to work ... it is the difference between bottom up and top down developing or people developing across a range of different areas to people developing in a single area ... neither is wrong or right, they are just different approaches which will hopefully get to the same conclusion. Coming from an academic background, I was always told to leave the introduction/conclusion (which I associate with the overview) to the end and write it after having done all the other parts.

For example, I think that the work that Seeker has been doing in writing the overview entries for various things after the specific tools/weapons/foods/etc has been a very good way of doing it ... as he's able to draw on the existing entries to create the overview, whereas if he were going the other way, it would be akin to imposing what other developers have to develop in the entries, which in some respects seems to be what is being done in this entry.

My apologies if this causes offence, it isn't meant to. Also, if I'm misunderstanding what is being said by Talia, just don't tell me "You are wrong Dek" (which is what normally happens) ... please tell me where I'm wrong and give examples. If Talia isn't saying what I think she's saying, show it to me, don't tell it to me.

Many thanks,

Dek
Logged

"And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space, because there's none at all down here on Earth." - Monty Python's The Meaning of Life
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 11.638


Shendar, Shen-D'auras


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #17 on: 15 June 2011, 21:54:52 »

It looks interesting, Talia! It's a big aspiration to summarize all, or almost all, 'religious magic' on Caelereth.

Oh well, yes, it grows slowly over my head ;) , especially as I‘m slower with finishing it than new religions with their magic arise. For now I‘ll ignore Nybelmarian religious magic, hope to include it in a revision.

I've got a few naive questions for you, which may or may not help:

You never have naive questions..


You define religious magic as the interaction between a believer and a god.

No, I should have, but I tried to take all what could be labeled ,religious‘ in this entry, so I have to speak of ,transcendent counterpart‘ or something like this (do you have a better proposal?‘), to include spirits, ancestors, essences. I might have to take out druidic magic, though I think it is kind of religious also.

 I assume, though, that this interaction will also produce an effect. For example, a Nehtorian priest may call upon Nehtor to help him heal someone. Am I right?
If that's so, my naive question is: Who is doing the healing? The Nehtorian priest (by the grace of his god), or Nehtor (in response to the prayer of his devout follower)?

Actually, I‘m here a bit in a dilemma. Takór Salenár would love to say, that it is the god himself, who interacts, or, that one cannot know it, but that it is irrelevant anyway, as long as something is achieved. Now the sage Federkiel intervened and told me, that not too much from the own belief may shine through, for it is a an article in an encyclopedia, so I have to leave it open. *thinks hard*
He could quote somebody though. I think I‘ve got a new idea here, thanks!
{--> ,Normal‘ achievements are done by the cleric through prayers as spells are done by mages, ,miracles‘=extraordinary happenings=something which, in comparison, not even an archmage could achieve are direct interactions of a god} What about this?
Have to look into Azhira‘s spirits though, if it would work there also.


To put this question in a more general form: is religious magic the performance of miracles (e.g., the earthly being does them with the grace of their god), or is it divine intervention on request from a believer? Or maybe should we say that the believer is the channel through which the god acts?

I think I want to have all three options! :D
- Normally the priest (or any person) prays, he achieves something with the grace of the god.--> not every prayer succeeds (in contrast to Ximaxian spells), reason could be his doubts, or the god not answering
- Special persons act as if they channel a god (any sort of hermit, holy person.. need to develop this), maybe they get ina trance and it looks as if a god acts directly through them
- miracles as defined above



I would love to read some examples of what actual religious magic looks like. Another naive question, then: What sort of effects are achieved with religious magic? How powerful are these effects? Maybe give an example of what a cleric of Nehtor can do, or what a servant of Etherus can do, etc.?

The problem is, that what priests actually can do, is not yet determined. But I think, their abilities should not exceed too far those skilled mages can do, though they might be able to do (slightly) different things, but somehow in the range of the Caelerethian „physics“=Ximaxian magic or Coren‘s Krean Magic. If something great ,effect‘ would be needed at any time, I would not be shy to expand religious magic , I think the shapeshifting of Azhira‘s people breaks the borders of Ximaxian magic. But I would not go beyond reasonable borders. I had an argument with Pikel once, who wanted the green druids to be able to let a whole park grow in one day. I fear I was the reason that the green druids are not yet on the site.
Well, basically, I wanted to point to the individual entries about magic, where one will find, what RM is really able to achieve.


Also: Is the power of the magic dependent on the piousness or strength or pure-heartedness of the cleric/believer, or is the power of the magic ascribed entirely to the god's will? For example: why can a cleric do magic, but a five year-old girl's prayer for her sick brother is not heard by the god?

A five year old girl can pray as well and be more successful than any cleric. Her faith and doubtless veneration will do the trick. Again, it is not known, if the god does the magic/healing or if the girl does it. Priest have the advantage, that they are trained in focusing and maybe better trained in opening that channel to the god or preparing themselves to do magic, the thoughts of normal persons may tend to wander.


Like all magic, I assume that an attempt at religious magic may fail. How is failure interpreted? Who, if anyone, is blamed?

Mostly the one who prays, for his, maybe even unconscious doubts may have caused the magic fail. Maybe the god did not want to answer. But then the prayer will ask himself, why the god did not answer.
But I‘m focussing again to much on ,gods‘. Maybe I should restrict this to divine magic.*sigh*



Could it be that (some) clerics do not speak of magic, but of "miracles"? "Nethor's deeds"? "Nehtor's grace"?

I think I will reserve miracle for the extraordinaire happenings, but yes, most times every priest will be aware, that he does magic, but call it with another name. I will add this!


Maybe the sections that are yet to come will answer some of these questions. If they are not useful for your writing process, feel free to ignore however many of these questions you wish to ignore.

Thanks, Shaba, you helped to clear some things! I have so much in my head, how I think it should look like, but not on paper. I started out with the Twelvern magic, then thought I should do the general overview first, to lay out the boundaries (as wide as they may be), but somehow I tended always to come back to the Twelvern magic, that is what Art had to remind me in his comment more than once.
Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 11.638


Shendar, Shen-D'auras


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #18 on: 15 June 2011, 22:21:37 »

A few simple questions ... how close is this entry finished?

From my first post:
Quote
I didn‘t manage to do the last parts (abilities) with the problems addressed there, but to get this on the site in the not so far future and to force me to finally bring it to an end, I post the first half now. Comments welcome.

I will post the problematic parts in a week or so, being away over pentecost.



There seem to be lots of headings without information underneath them.

Only three!


 I can only assume that it is unfinished. Talia, maybe you could indicate what areas you consider are finished so that people can direct their comments to those parts?

What is posted is as finished as I could do, comments and help needed.

 Finally, could you please change that dark blue colour you use in places to a different colour, one that is easy to read against the dark background?

Will do


To me, this is being done in the wrong way ... to me individual religions and pantheons should be developed and then brought together into an overarching entry like this, rather than the other way around. For example, if someone comes up with an idea for their religion that most people think is great, and a useful addition, would this entry subsequently be changed to cater for any necessary changes to the way that this overarching entry describes Religious Magic? Or would they not be able to have it in their entry?

Well, then we disagree here. Nobody so far had any qualms with it in the last few years this one is lingering and asked me to not try to do it this way. (look at the old comments if you please). This entry is concepted so wide, that everything, so I hope, will find a place under it. There has to be a difference between secular magic and religious magic, and that is belief in a transcendental being and faith. I might need to take out druidic magic (though I think it is ' religious' also), but I'll try to formulate the text in a way, that Azhira's Kaaer magic will fit in it. If there should be a new idea once in the realm of religious magic, then I will have to rewrite what I have, simple as that. It depends all how open you write such a submission

Like Valan ... I prefer to work from the specific to the general, rather than from the general to the specific ... which is a different method of working to what seems to be the norm, but still the way that I find it easiest to work ... it is the difference between bottom up and top down developing or people developing across a range of different areas to people developing in a single area ... neither is wrong or right, they are just different approaches which will hopefully get to the same conclusion. Coming from an academic background, I was always told to leave the introduction/conclusion (which I associate with the overview) to the end and write it after having done all the other parts.

Well, that is a different world we are in. We are worldbuilders, not just describers  grin

For example, I think that the work that Seeker has been doing in writing the overview entries for various things after the specific tools/weapons/foods/etc has been a very good way of doing it ... as he's able to draw on the existing entries to create the overview, whereas if he were going the other way, it would be akin to imposing what other developers have to develop in the entries, which in some respects seems to be what is being done in this entry.

My apologies if this causes offence, it isn't meant to. Also, if I'm misunderstanding what is being said by Talia, just don't tell me "You are wrong Dek" (which is what normally happens) ... please tell me where I'm wrong and give examples. If Talia isn't saying what I think she's saying, show it to me, don't tell it to me.

Dek, this entry was started already on the old blue board (what was its name again?), it is a bit late to kill it.  
Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
Azhira Styralias
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 132
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.774


Mód’dél’áey


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: 15 June 2011, 22:28:37 »

Encyclopedia or not, it must be acknowledged that gods, spirits, higher beings exist in order to explain divine magic. Unlike Ximaxian scientific principles, which can be better explained using oun and car'all, divine magic has no such explanation. Divine magic is not power of will alone. It is the power of a deity that grants such magic.

Ximaxian spells can fail, and I believe so can divine "spells" (miracles). Depends on the individual user's skill and/or faith.

I think its important to be clear that each deity/spirit is different in their thinking and requirements for the worshipers. I think that is best explained using lore and myth as a foundation.

I believe that this entry has been so long in development because we want to explain in scientific terms how divine magic works, and we can't do that. There is no rational explanation how Kaaer to'ava healing happens, or how powerful Kaaer can (supposedly) shift into animals. Clearly, a strong faith in Durgho is required and long study of their own to'ava.

Really though...if you want explanations for divine magic, an entry will have to be written by a cleric, from their point of view.
Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 64
Offline Offline

Posts: 848



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: 15 June 2011, 23:04:09 »

How then - excuse me for butting in to this conversation - do we explain that clerics of different Gods receive their wish? If our religions are mutually exclusive, how can clerics of different faiths cast spells? As I understood the magic entry, the cleric's belief that his God will grant his request/grant him the power to do something is the same as the Ximaxian's belief that when he tells the car'all to do something, it will do it - and that is probably a grotesque mangling of the system, but anyway. My point is not to say that you are wrong, but to ask the question here so that the reasoning can be made clear on site and we don't have seemingly inconsistent entries.

Ath
Logged

"I don't care what you did as a boy."
"Well, I did nothing as a girl, so there goes my childhood." - Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire, The Gay Divorcee, 1934.
The Life and Works of Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Kalta'hnk - My ramblings on anything to do with the Glandorians - The Glandorian Men (Proposal)
Deklitch Hardin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 103
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.758


Elf friend


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: 15 June 2011, 23:10:36 »

I am wondering where you got the idea from that I'm wanting you to kill this entry, Talia. I just simply said that I think it is being done in the wrong order, and that I believe that this entry has the potential of being too restrictive for future developments. I also believe I acknowledged that it probably wasn't an idea that would be widely shared. So, I should just keep my views on it to myself, is that what you want?

I would point out that I wasn't around for your previous attempts at this discussion, Talia, and as I have been around for two years, I think, it has been a while since it was last discussed. If I had been around back then, I would have raised these comments back then, as unpopular as they are.

You haven't really answered my questions, Talia, particularly this one:

Quote
Maybe you could indicate what areas you consider are finished so that people can direct their comments to those parts?

Your response of:

Quote
What is posted is as finished as I could do, comments and help needed.

Really has me scratching my head. Commemts and help needed with what exactly?

Do you want us to tell you what our different races/tribes think in terms of relgious things?
Do you want to know about pantheons in different parts of Caelereth?
Do you want to know how the different peoples of the disk call on the powers of their deities?
Do you want myths?
Do you want religious personages/groups?
Do you want other things to do with religion I haven't got here?

I am trying to understand what you want from us here, to see if there is some way I can help.

Let me put it this way ... you want help and comments ... I'm wanting to help and provide comments. However, I don't know what you want help and comments with when it comes to this entry, and I really don't have the time to provide comments and help if they aren't what you are wanting. So, could you please clarify if any of those things are what you are after, or if I'm right off the mark?
« Last Edit: 15 June 2011, 23:17:17 by Deklitch Hardin » Logged

"And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space, because there's none at all down here on Earth." - Monty Python's The Meaning of Life
Azhira Styralias
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 132
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.774


Mód’dél’áey


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: 16 June 2011, 00:25:07 »

Quote
How then - excuse me for butting in to this conversation - do we explain that clerics of different Gods receive their wish? If our religions are mutually exclusive, how can clerics of different faiths cast spells? As I understood the magic entry, the cleric's belief that his God will grant his request/grant him the power to do something is the same as the Ximaxian's belief that when he tells the car'all to do something, it will do it - and that is probably a grotesque mangling of the system, but anyway. My point is not to say that you are wrong, but to ask the question here so that the reasoning can be made clear on site and we don't have seemingly inconsistent entries.

Ath

Not sure I understand this question... huh
Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 11.638


Shendar, Shen-D'auras


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #23 on: 16 June 2011, 00:31:43 »

@Azhira: Would you please discuss that with Artimidor?  :D
I'll try to describe your religious magic in more mysterious terms and will colour it for you to find it easier and be able to check it, if it suits you.

@Athviaro:

Quote
How then - excuse me for butting in to this conversation - do we explain that clerics of different Gods receive their wish? If our religions are mutually exclusive, how can clerics of different faiths cast spells?
I have to admit, I don't see your problem there. (I avoid saying 'cast' spell ..) They pray, each to his/her god...


Quote
As I understood the magic entry, the cleric's belief that his God will grant his request/grant him the power to do something is the same as the Ximaxian's belief that when he tells the car'all to do something, it will do it - and that is probably a grotesque mangling of the system, but anyway.

Not entirely. There are some ... sholars, who try to look from a distance at the religious magic. They assume similarities, a cleric 'normal' himself would surely not do this, those with a higher education (Salenár) and (at the same time) not too fanatic may well try to compare his (god-given)magic with the Ximaxian one- and with any other (Krean) also. There could be a gathering, where all this will be discussed, some leaving out of protest...
My general Idea was, as I tried to bring it across already in the answer to Shaba, that all magic done in Caelereth may not , at least not in a overly open way, contradict each other. In principle, one should be able to do the same as the other, but in fact that will not be possible. Ximaxians, would it be possible with raw magic to shapeshift? (*sigh*I need to read that shape-form etc stuff again). My aim is/was to get - as so often - consistency and not a mere agglomeration of magic systems.


 My point is not to say that you are wrong, but to ask the question here so that the reasoning can be made clear on site and we don't have seemingly inconsistent entries.

Ath, every question helps to clarify for myself, where the shortcomings of this submission is!

@Dek:

You explained in three paragraphs, that my way of doing it is wrong in your sight, so what is the expected answer or reaction to it? When somebody tells me so intensely what he finds wrong, then I try to change that habit. I told you, that this is not possible for me anymore.

I'm not asking for any of the listed questions, just to read what I have and show me shortcomings, in those already posted parts. If you find a religious practise which would contradict the basic principles of belief and faith however, please point me to that. The problem of evil gods etc will be adressed later.


Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 64
Offline Offline

Posts: 848



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: 16 June 2011, 00:49:46 »

@Azzy the point was that beings which don't exist can't grant the power to cause magical effects; thus, if it is actually divine involvement, only one pantheon's worshippers would be able to use this magic, as only their gods exist.

As I see it, comparative religion should be secular, if only for balance, and that applies here as well. It's all very well for a priest of Nehtor to say "My god did it for me"; but when a priest of *thinks of another God* when a Kaeer shapeshifts and says "Durgho (sp?) granted me the power", who is right? The one does not admit the other.

Like I say, I'm just telling this how I see it, as a non-expert trying to understand how it works.

Ath
Logged

"I don't care what you did as a boy."
"Well, I did nothing as a girl, so there goes my childhood." - Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire, The Gay Divorcee, 1934.
The Life and Works of Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Kalta'hnk - My ramblings on anything to do with the Glandorians - The Glandorian Men (Proposal)
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 11.638


Shendar, Shen-D'auras


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #25 on: 16 June 2011, 01:00:27 »

@ Ath

I see, what you mean:

Quote
the point was that beings which don't exist can't grant the power to cause magical effects; thus, if it is actually divine involvement, only one pantheon's worshippers would be able to use this magic, as only their gods exist.

Your assumption is not correct. Without any developer's view pinned down, we cannot know, if any god exists. All possibilities, no god, one god, or many gods are possible. So your assumption 'only one pantheon's worshippers would be able to use this magic' is not valid.

Quote
It's all very well for a priest of Nehtor to say "My god did it for me"; but when a priest of *thinks of another God* when a Kaeer shapeshifts and says "Durgho (sp?) granted me the power", who is right? The one does not admit the other.

All are right. Or none, but we can't know this, for either the gods, if they exist, give the power to achieve anything, or the followers do it out of their own power. It might be impossible to say, which view is correct.

And we should not forget, that we are in the middle ages, where not believing in a god, or similar, was not really an option, or common, at least on earth.
Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
Kalína Dalá'isyrás
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 32
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 752


Dalá'isyrás


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #26 on: 16 June 2011, 01:06:09 »

Okay.

I have a really simple question, which was gleaned from the recent comments.

How can there be clerical magic, if the gods "don't exist"?
Logged

Insanity is only a perception made by those who have yet to attain its greatness. While those of us who have already stepped inside its bounds find bliss in our utter madness.
Draconic Development Schedule
Valan Nonesuch
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 113
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.507


Like a pudding bag full of knives


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: 16 June 2011, 01:13:27 »

In defence of Ath and others Talia, I think you're sidestepping the questions, and rather badly at that.

You could simply say "I didn't think of that" but rather than doing so you seem to be trying to couch the sidestep "well we can't know" in the justification that "there isn't an answer".

Now, since you are a cosmology moderator and this falls under your specific purview, I think it's important for this entry and for others to answer the following questions;



From a developer's perspective, being all-knowing and not specifically concerned with the matter of clerical magic, do any gods exist? Do any not exist?

Once again, from a developer's perspective, being all knowing and not specifically concerned with the views of any one group or religion (santharian or otherwise) where do practitioners of religious magic draw their "power" or ability to alter reality?

You are entitled to say "I don't know" of course, or give your opinion, but I sincerely think that this will be important later on for general development so things may as well be hashed out now.
« Last Edit: 16 June 2011, 01:31:49 by Valan Nonesuch » Logged

Beyond the horizon where the earth and the heavens meet
lies a certain point where they are not joined together and where, by stooping,
one might pass under the roof of the heavens.
Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 64
Offline Offline

Posts: 848



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: 16 June 2011, 01:27:51 »

Just because we don't know whether or which Gods exist the problem isn't solved; the fact remains that AT MOST one pantheon exists, by definition; no knowing doesn't mean we can just let them all work. The assumption was valid, based as it is on logic.

1) Premise - That the gods grant these powers AND that only things which exist can do things, including granting powers AND that the religions are mutually exclusive (so only one pantheon exists)

2) Logic - Based on the premises, the gods which grant these powers must be real

3) Conclusion - Since only one pantheon exists, only one pantheon can grant powers, and only worshippers of one pantheon can gain the benefit. So which?

Now, unless my conclusion is wrong, tell me where I erred, please. The logic is solid, unless I'm an idiot. So which premise is wrong? (And if you think of a premise I failed to say, tell me)

Ath

EDIT: Valan posted, but I'm finishing my train of argument anyhow
Logged

"I don't care what you did as a boy."
"Well, I did nothing as a girl, so there goes my childhood." - Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire, The Gay Divorcee, 1934.
The Life and Works of Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Kalta'hnk - My ramblings on anything to do with the Glandorians - The Glandorian Men (Proposal)
Azhira Styralias
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 132
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.774


Mód’dél’áey


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: 16 June 2011, 01:33:32 »

I have always held to the developer's viewpoint that gods do exist. Nehtor is just as real as Durgho. Mermaria exists for her people just as Lofurno does for the Kanapans.

There are gods, and therefore, divine magic exists in some way (the problem is defining HOW it manifests itself and from WHOM)

For too long, developers have tried to avoid clearly defining the gods in order to maintain a balanced viewpoint. I think that's silly. This is a fantasy world with fantasy elements, and therefore has fantasy gods.

But I am only one-half of the moderator team for Cosmo, but I will say that any religious entry I do for the North will in fact define a very real and present deity.
Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Pages: 1 [2] 3
Print
Jump to:  

Recent
[27 March 2019, 00:01:57]

[21 June 2018, 14:28:00]

[31 May 2017, 06:35:55]

[06 May 2017, 05:27:04]

[03 April 2017, 01:15:03]

[26 March 2017, 12:48:25]

[15 March 2017, 02:23:07]

[15 March 2017, 02:20:28]

[15 March 2017, 02:17:52]

[14 March 2017, 20:23:43]

[06 February 2017, 04:53:35]

[31 January 2017, 08:45:52]

[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]

[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]

[27 October 2016, 07:42:01]

[27 September 2016, 18:51:05]

[11 September 2016, 23:17:33]

[11 September 2016, 23:15:27]

[11 September 2016, 22:58:56]

[03 September 2016, 22:22:23]
Members
Total Members: 1019
Latest: lolanixon
Stats
Total Posts: 144586
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 32
Online Ever: 700
(23 January 2020, 20:05:39)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 24
Total: 24

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2005, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Theme based on Cerberus with Risen adjustments by Bloc and Krelia
Modified By Artimidor for The Santharian Dream
gfx
gfxgfx gfxgfx