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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #30 on: 16 November 2011, 06:13:24 »

There's something we need to have an eye on when it comes to naming: We're mostly in Erpheronian territory, and there are some typical Erpheronian syllables, endings etc. which we have used at Erpheronian Nomenclature. All this didn't exist when the names were first put on the map, so we should try to put in as many Erpheronian sounding names as we can. Or Helcrani names, but we don't have anything there in terms of nomenclature. - Example: The term "Ancyros" is very Erpheronian as it has the typical -os ending (see names like Caemaros, Meos, Jaeos, Thaelos, even Santhros).

It's also possible of course to define certain Erpheronian or Helcrani etc. conventions and than use this name parts regularly, e.g. we use the ending "ran" for "settlement" at the Avennorian influences Manthrian map (Marduran, Kachran, Vreesran, etc.) This could be tried to immitate up north as well.
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« Reply #31 on: 17 November 2011, 03:29:12 »

The Milkengrad entry mentions that the Helcrani have their own language, which they call "High Speech".  Considering their history, this is probably a dialect of Kyranian.  I don't know if they use it to name places though.  For place names, they seem to use the same conventions as the Centoraurians.  Whether this is in High Speech, Centoraurian, or a mix of the two, I'm not sure. 

In any case, Curgan left us quite a number of Centoraurian/Helcrani place names in his entries, and the Xaramon masterplan, so maybe we can try to figure out a naming convention by analysing them.  Here's some things I noticed:

"-gammon" seems to be a common ending, which I think means "fort".  He named one of the Xaramon cities "Dysgammon", then provided the translation "Fort of the West".  That might mean that "dys" is "west". 

"-grad" also appears a couple of times.  According to the Milkengrad entry, it means "city".  The entry also states that "milken" means "wonders" and "milk" means "small". 

"-wana" seems to mean "home".  "Fratrawana" in the Milkengrad entry was translated as "Home of the Fratra".  One of the Helcrani settlements was also called "Ahaiwana". 

"-bellou" appears twice in Xaramon.  Both were coastal towns, but I'm not sure if that is significant or just a coincidence. 

"-on" and "-eim" endings seem to be slightly more common than the others.  I'm not sure if it has any meaning. 

In addition, there were also some Styrash-derived names in Milkengrad. 
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« Reply #32 on: 17 November 2011, 04:22:15 »

Yep, these are very helpful observations and should help to construct a few names.

Also worth noticing: The ending -ctar (Aplectar, Naupactar Shipyards), and there's of course the title "Anactar" with that ending. So trying to build a bridge between a title and a place I could imagine it to mean something like "main", "dominant", "superior" (could be interpreted geographically or as a rank).
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« Reply #33 on: 17 November 2011, 04:41:16 »

More on Erpheronian town/village names: There's I guess the very first lousy map I ever drew of so-called "Vardınn", which of course isn't Vardınn at all anymore... *hehe* Actually not a single piece of the map shows Vardınn territory... Anyway, I mention it mainly to get some ideas on how to name settlements. What seems common are endings like "-rin", "-ril" or "-ring" (Nordril, Orril, Traprin, Ishmarin, Weyring...) Could be used for settlements.

As for Rayne's suggestions: We could pick certain endings to represent towns, and maybe -ton is something from which the Tharian term "town" eventually derived. Probably it was that way on Earth as well :) That would be a basis, and Erpheronian sounding/looking elements could be woven into various of the given suggestions Rayne made. Like so:

Emerton --> Aemyrton
Faeberton --> Phaeverton
Kaeserton --> Caeyserton
Hailston --> Haeylston

Just to give you a rough direction. Same could go with -ford and -fort endings - Erpheronians were heavily fortified, so settlements ending on -fort sound pretty good in this respect.
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« Reply #34 on: 17 November 2011, 04:48:53 »

Um, a ford is a rather different thing from a fort.  But, yes, both are quite useful for deriving place names. 
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« Reply #35 on: 17 November 2011, 04:57:22 »

Yeah, sure - it's not that a ford is a weak fort...  grin Just trying to establish some common words that could be used throughout Vardınn. These similar endings are just coincidence, but maybe we'd go more for the fort than the ford due to the martial roots of these guys.
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« Reply #36 on: 17 November 2011, 11:45:11 »

Your linguistic investigations are wonderful! This will be quite helpful, not only for naming duchies, but as Artimidor mentioned, for cities and towns throughout the province. Great work!

Based on the discussion thus far, I have revised and assigned. Please let me know how I can change these to better suit the linguistic environment you two have so assiduously been researching!

Duchy 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Duchy 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Aeribellou
Duchy 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Duchy 4 (Jernais): Haeylston
Duchy 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Duchy 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Centaurwana
Duchy 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Duchy 8 (Thyslan, et al): Phaeverton
Duchy 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Duchy 10 (High Fores): Baelroc


EDIT: Just as an FYI, I've begun adding more internal navigation to the Vardınn Master Plan, which I hope will make things easier for those searching for information. I have also begun adding descriptions of duchies, which I hope to supplement with information about included cities and towns of relevance, along with some information regarding People and Tribes. I'm a little unsure of how to structure these. I'm just learning by doing.

Both the Master Plan and the Master Planner are a work in progress, I suppose.  buck
« Last Edit: 17 November 2011, 14:04:20 by Rayne (Alır) » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: 17 November 2011, 16:11:00 »

I'm not sure stycals should be considered duchies.  They are more autonomous, and probably aren't part of the Human hierarchy.  But that's a rather minor issue. 

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Duchy 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Aeribellou
Well, I suggested earlier in the thread that it could be a free city instead of a duchy, in which case it's probably called "Free City of Milkengrad" or something like that.  "Efirhal" is another possibility; Efirhal island makes up most of the territory, after all. 

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Duchy 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Centaurwana
"Centoraurwana", perhaps, but I think just "Aurora" works as well.  According to the Centoraurian entry, "Centorauria" supposedly means "around the Auroras", and the duchy was called "the Aurorian duchy".  Of course, the name could have been changed since then. 

Quote
Duchy 8 (Thyslan, et al): Phaeverton
From the Centoraurian entry: "Thyslan and the nearby area of Thysland formed the homonymous duchy." 
If we're keeping the historical names, it's probably either "Thyslan" or "Thysland".  Otherwise, I guess "Phaeverton" sounds alright, although "-ton" does suggest a town rather than a region, like Artimidor said. 

Quote
Duchy 10 (High Fores): Baelroc
I would have gone with "Helcrah", although historically it seems to mostly refer to the northern half (roughly everything above where "High Fores" appears on the map).  I haven't found any other names for the region.  I'm not so sure about "Baelroc"; it feels a little out of place to me, compared to the other names.  Unfortunately, I can't think of a better name. 
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« Reply #38 on: 17 November 2011, 21:45:06 »



XAZURE HERONS ON THE HEATH OF JERNAIS.

 Note the Heckra Volcano to the south, and the High Fores (relatively speaking) receding to the east in the background...





http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/384701_10150368893843587_517153586_8510629_2016148233_n.jpg
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« Reply #39 on: 17 November 2011, 22:51:42 »

Agreeing with Mina about Milkengrad, The Free City of Milkengrad would give us another one with such a title (Bardavos being the other I can think of).
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« Reply #40 on: 18 November 2011, 00:15:05 »

Well, mostly I suggested that because Milkengrad is one of the most important cities in Santharian history, so it feels a little odd for it to be merely part of a duchy.  Besides, as recently as 1524 a.S., it was part of an independent kingdom, probably its capital.  While we could try to figure out some way of getting it demoted in the process of rejoining Santharia, that seems a little unlikely, considering that they were supporters of the Santhros dynasty, who I think are in power right now. 
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« Reply #41 on: 18 November 2011, 04:32:30 »

Aura +1 for your wonderful drawing, Judy! Beautiful bird, and this in no less than three version, great! Too bad we don't have the entry for it yet, but I hope this will get done sooner or later - we could also use the picture to depict the Hèckra, and I hope there'll also eventually be an entry on that volcano! :D clap

BTW: From time to time I realize that there were pictures you have finished to a great degree, but they are still not on site. Just remembered e.g. the Zirghurim mountain with all those lights you made once (that could fit to these dwarves and to Ximax), and the wonderful Journey pic still hasn't made it in site, and there are only small adjustments necessary to make the tree faces a bit different. To name just two. Here's hope that some of these pics eventually can still be finished - would be really a pity if they don't make it!

Now back to Vardınn:

- I agree with Mina and Valan and would also say that Milkengrad is probably best taken care of if we make it a free city with special rights. They've always been something different, have their own title for their ruler etc. - so it sounds somewhat logical to make it that way.

Milkengrad's special status should also reflect in the naming. So the "Free City of Milkengrad" could comprise also some land around the city (=Efirhal) and be called that way, or we could make name city and adjacent lands in a "Milkengradian" way, meaning: with "Milkengrad" being a part of that name. Like "Milkenia", "Milkedia", "Milkrenia" or "Milkgredia", something like that. That way this free territory would be easily to identify by name.

- Stycals: Stycals indeed shouldn't be considered "duchies", they also don't have a Duke or Duchess, but a Ránn or a Rónn. So the elves have their own administrative name for these territories.

- The "-tons" in Rayne's suggestions I would see more as endings representing "towns", being derived from that words (see my notes above). Phaeverton sound quite cool, but to me it works best as town.

- Personally I'd like to keep it simpler and region related whenever possible. "Ancyros" with the "Anycthrian Sea" there is already a given, and it fits very well therefore I think. In the same vein I like "Thysland" which Mina mentioned, but also "Aurora".

- I like for example "Graeyerwınn", which has an Erpheronian touch, "Gannilos" also sounds nice. I can't connect "Aeribellou" with any name scheme however, and the High Fores mayhaps could have something dwarven sounding. Need to investigate more however to come up with proper suggestions. As Mina also mentioned with Helcrah, one might find something in a region's history that could determine a name - ideally it should be connected in a way to the region, so any out of the blue names should be avoided.
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« Reply #42 on: 18 November 2011, 04:40:20 »

Oh, and one more quite important thing, quote from the Erpheronian entry:

Quote
Secondary names (also called "titles") are usually awarded during lifetime or partly inherited in case they are honourary or customary used names. Persons of noble origin also always have a house name which is added at the end of a formal mentioning of a name.

I think we perhaps shouldn't focus too much on fancy names in Erpheronian territories, but can construct many of them form Tharian words, just the way titles are formed. So that we get settlements like "Weavington" (Town of Weavers), Battlespire, Knightsfort, lots of names which speak for themselves.
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« Reply #43 on: 18 November 2011, 10:09:15 »

Judith! That's gorgeous! You are a remarkable artist... I love your use of color, and the look and feel of the herons makes them manifestations of how I imagined the heath--lovely with a slight eerie quality. The eldritch eyes and the plumage of insouciant blue makes a wonderful combination. They seem familiar, yet exotic. I love it. And the colors in the mountains, the small marsh, the rocks--wonderful, wonderful, wonderful!

Thank you, Judith!

And thank you, Mina, for taking a look at the names and sharing more of your research! Based on the discussion thus far, I propose the following (white are decided, green are stycals):

Duchy 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Duchy 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkrenia (Per Artimidor's suggestion--Thank you, Arti!)
Duchy 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Duchy 4 (Jernais): Haeylston
Duchy 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Duchy 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
Duchy 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Duchy 8 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
Duchy 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Duchy 10 (High Fores): Baelroc

I'm still not sure of Haeylston and Baelroc. Please let me know about these! I will integrate the other into the Master Plan.

Just as a side note--I don't think anyone here considers the stycals to be duchies. I merely refer to the numbers on the map. Do you think people involved in this discussion might get confused? If so, let me know how I should rename them. While they aren't political entities, they are part of the province, and I don't want to ignore them!
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« Reply #44 on: 18 November 2011, 17:27:08 »

Quote
That way this free territory would be easily to identify by name.
I'm not sure if the territory controlled by a free city really needs a separate name; I didn't look very hard, but I don't think it was that common in real life.  Then again, we don't have to follow real life exactly, so it really depends on which you guys prefer.  I don't really mind either way.  That said, if we're going with a separate name derived from "Milkengrad", I would prefer something where the root "milken" is kept intact, eg. "Milkenia". 

Quote
I'm still not sure of Haeylston and Baelroc. Please let me know about these! I will integrate the other into the Master Plan.
Regarding Baelroc, in real life, there was the Duchy of the Archipelago, so we might be able to get away with a name like "Duchy of the Mountains".  Anyway, I'm not quite convinced that it should have a Dwarven name, considering that half of it (and also the half that is more likely to be involved in provincial matters) is Helcrani.  Then again, maybe it's a Dwarven name that was borrowed into Tharian or the Helcrani language (or the Caltharian language, since most of it belonged to Caltharia first). 

As for Haeylston, it seems to me that "Jernais" would be an obvious name for a duchy that has the Heath of Jernais and the City of Jernais. 

Quote
Just as a side note--I don't think anyone here considers the stycals to be duchies. I merely refer to the numbers on the map. Do you think people involved in this discussion might get confused? If so, let me know how I should rename them. While they aren't political entities, they are part of the province, and I don't want to ignore them!
Well, I don't think any of us discussing this are getting confused.  But it might be a good idea to list them separately in the masterplan itself, as well as any entries involving them.  That's yet another improvement I need to make to the Xaramon masterplan.   buck

Quote
Just remembered e.g. the Zirghurim mountain with all those lights you made once (that could fit to these dwarves and to Ximax)
I remember that picture.  It should definitely go into the Zirghurim entry, where it was described, but probably not the Ximax entry, as Ximax doesn't actually control the territory it's located on.  It could also be put into the Zirkumire Mountains entry, since it's part of that mountain range. 
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