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Author Topic: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion  (Read 38004 times)
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Rayne (Alır)
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« Reply #45 on: 19 November 2011, 12:25:24 »

Ah, I love seeing Judith's picture every time I come to the third page of this thread! I notice things each time I didn't see before, like the details in the wings and that haze of yellow as though from languid sunlight. I see that lovely shade of purple in the heaths and wonder if it isn't the Allia blooming in insouciant kef.

Ah--but yes, the matter at hand! Forgive me--I was daydreaming again.


NAMES

I have update the names based on the discussion. I am all for making things more simple (i.e. calling the duchy of Jernais City and Heath merely "Jernais"). I took your suggestion, Mina, of keeping the "Milken" root. I'm not sure how to alter it. I feel adding "ia" a bit too conventional. Let me know if any of the below suggestions speak to you.

I've put in a suggestion for the last duchy, but I would like another name, even it's less used. Is there any way we could do a Thergerim-Centaurorian-Helcrani combination? Any suggestions?

Territory 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Territory 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkenra? Milkentra? Milkenry
Territory 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Territory 4 (Jernais): Jernais
Territory 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Territory 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
Territory 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Territory 8 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
Territory 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Territory 10 (High Fores): Duchy of the Eastern Mountains(?)


Quote
Well, I don't think any of us discussing this are getting confused.  But it might be a good idea to list them separately in the masterplan itself, as well as any entries involving them.  That's yet another improvement I need to make to the Xaramon masterplan.    buck
I have changed duchies to "territories", both in the Master Plan and in the above list. Hopefully this will make things less confusing!


RESOURCES

I know we're still working on the names, but I would love to begin outlining the economies of these duchies, and maybe begin to see how their resources were put to use. I know this list is long; it may be easier to do one duchy at a time...


Territory 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
  • Imports: Cotton and lighter fabrics, metal tools, pottery, alcohol, wood products
  • Exports: Wool, fish, jams/jellies, Churican cheese
  • Resources/Production: Ocean, livestock, some crop-plants (i.e. meldarapples)

Territory 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkenra? Milkentra? Milkenry
  • Imports: ... Mercantilism?
  • Exports: ... Same as above? Artisan goods?
  • Resources/Production: I assume that a lot of the city's income would come from trading taxes...?

Territory 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
  • Imports: Aellenrhim entry mentions that they need to trade for salt
  • Exports: Entry states they trade "information and woven fabrics", though I was thinking honey and candles might be potential exports.
  • Resources/Production: I know that Boldar has granite. I have a feeling that the mountains from the north would extend a little into the forest, making it somewhat mountainous. I thought perhaps maybe other minerals as well? Maybe Moonstone?

Territory 4 (Jernais): Jernais
  • Imports: Probably fish, horses from Aurora, and cloth materials in raw form (e.g. spools of wool/thread
  • Exports: Dyed cloths and cloth products (e.g. clothing, rugs, blankets)
  • Resources/Production: I imagined the heath to be moor-like, with occasionally rocky patches and marshy patches that make the land occasionally difficult for crops but not bad for husbandry--maybe sheep, goats, cows, etc.

Territory 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
  • Imports: I assume a lot of grains and crop fruits and vegetables would come in from Jernais and Aurora
  • Exports: Fish, metals (which..?)
  • Resources/Production: This region is suppose to be brimming with resources. I would guess iron and other useful metals in the Twinnean Peaks and Helcrah--which has been mined (for what, I'm not sure). I imagined that there used to Mithril mines, which have been dry for centuries now. Maybe fish, too?

Territory 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
  • Imports: Metals, wood products?
  • Exports: Horses, livestock, and lots of agriculture (particularly wheat)
  • Resources/Production: Entry on Aurora mentions horses, agriculture, and husbandry (cows, sheep, pigs, etc.). I feel like, with this region, it will be ore difficult to figure out what the region does NOT have.

Territory 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
  • Imports: Horses, some agriculture
  • Exports: Fish, mercanitilism/artisanship? Pottery and other artisan goods?
  • Resources/Production: I assume that, like Milkengrad, trade would generate revenue?

Territory 8 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
  • Imports: Horses, some agriculture?
  • Exports: Fish, metal some trade, maybe some animal husbandry?
  • Resources/Production: I don't know if there's something special about the Crow Hills, but the hills imply potential metal to me--and maybe a place for animal husbandry.

Territory 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
  • Imports: NA
  • Exports: NA
  • Resources/Production: The Silkel trees are probably something of a resource. Because Thaelon is a stycal belonging to elves, I'm not sure what the policies of harvesting the trees would be.... I assume that the forests are more or less left alone.

Territory 10 (High Fores): Duchy of the Eastern Mountains(?)
  • Imports: Salts, horses, and maybe some agriculture?
  • Exports: Metals? I could see animal husbandry around the base of the mountains and through to the lakes
  • Resources/Production: The mountains make metals the most obvious (maybe iron?), though because the mountains are inhabited, I'm not sure what the policy of ownership over those resources might be...


EDIT - RESOURCE LIST?

Ugh, looking at this makes me wonder if we shouldn't make this simpler by generating a list of potential resources, then assigning those resources to the duchy--

  • Agriculture
  • Artisan Goods
  • Cloth
  • Fishing and Sea Salt
  • Horses
  • Husbandry
  • Metals
  • Pottery?

Naturally there are complications with this... Hn.. I might need some input..  undecided


EDIT 2:

I've been experimenting with a working map I can layer on to for discussion/development purposes...


« Last Edit: 19 November 2011, 14:10:50 by Rayne (Alır) » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: 20 November 2011, 18:09:20 »

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I took your suggestion, Mina, of keeping the "Milken" root. I'm not sure how to alter it. I feel adding "ia" a bit too conventional. Let me know if any of the below suggestions speak to you.
Hmm, I guess you're right.  "Milkenra" and "Milkentra" both sound alright to me.  Other options I can think of are "Milkenheim/Milkeneim", "Milkenroth", and "Milkenon/Milkennon". 


It might indeed be better to list the resources each place has, rather than imports and exports.  I don't remember exactly, but I don't think rural areas usually import much of anything.  As for exports, I guess they produce food, and maybe natural resources if they have them.  Most cities would probably need to import at least part of their food, and the raw materials for making various stuff.  As for their products, artisan stuff seems right. 

I don't know about the internal structure of Elven regions, so I don't know if they have this sort of rural/urban divide. 

Most Centoraurian areas probably have horses.  Coastal areas (and the Aerelian Lakes) probably have fish, although I have no idea how far they can really be transported.  Mountains give me the impression of having mineral resources as well (not just metals, but also various types of stones and gems), but I've never actually researched what resources mountains produce, so I don't really know.  Don't forget lumber too.  The maps only show Elven forests, but I think it's safe to assume that there are other forests too where the other races can get the wood they need. 

You also mentioned dyed cloth, which is certainly one possibility, especially for the Caltharian cities.  Jernais seems to be the only one in Vardynn at the moment, but maybe more can be added later.  The dyes themselves are yet another thing that can be traded.  Perhaps they import the dyes from elsewhere?  Enthronia, where most of the Caltharians are located, is one possible source.  But maybe other places produce dyes too.  It seems a lot of things can be made into dyes. 

I am not sure what you mean by importing or exporting mercantilism.  veryconfused

Quote
The mountains make metals the most obvious (maybe iron?), though because the mountains are inhabited, I'm not sure what the policy of ownership over those resources might be...
If you mean the Dwarves, you'll have to ask Bard Judith to be sure, but I seem to recall that they let Humans and other races use the land until a certain depth. 
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« Reply #47 on: 21 November 2011, 00:27:16 »

Assuming #10 currently includes the High Fores and corresponding (haven't checked to see if there is one) Low Fores, it could simply be the 'Duchy of the Fores' no?
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« Reply #48 on: 21 November 2011, 03:05:57 »

NAMES

Ooo! I like Milkenon. It lacks what I am coining the "Frankenfeeling"--the feeling that the name is either 1) stitched together or 2) somehow affected. It seems very natural and flowing!

As I've been working on the Duchies, I find that "Duchy of the Eastern Mountains" is growing on me. I do like your suggestion, Valan, about "Duchy of the Fores," but unfortunately this duchy only includes the High Fores, not the Lower Fores.

This is the list thus far of names; if we're content with these, then I believe we have all our names!

Territory 1 (Churican, et al): Gannilos
Territory 2 (Milkengrad, et al): Milkenon
Territory 3 (Boldar): Bolder Stycal
Territory 4 (Jernais): Jernais
Territory 5 (Ancytharian, et al): Ancyros
Territory 6 (Aurora Plains, et al): Aurora
Territory 7 (Voldar, et al): Graeyerwınn
Territory 8 (Thyslan, et al): Thysland
Territory 9 (Thaelon): Thaelon Stycal
Territory 10 (High Fores): Duchy of the Eastern Mountains


RESOURCES

Forgive that I seem to have jotted all my ideas about the economy in a cursory mess.  buck You are quite right to suggest beginning with resources; I seem to have jumped to putting the cart before the horse. My end goal is to eventually get a good idea of how the resources affect the economy of the province, and how the duchies within the province interact with one another economically. I feel like knowing the economy of the province may help uncover particularities in duchy relationships, lending some insights into politics and culture.

I would like to generate a map, as so, which breaks down duchy resources. The larger the circle, the greater the resources. Artisan goods include things like pottery, jewelry, clothing, etc. Animal Products include meat, cheeses, and things like wool and leather. Crop Goods include not only wheat, corn, etc. but also things like raw cotton and dyes (basically anything that comes from a plant). All the categories are somewhat large.



Naturally, these need editing. The scalability of this project is of course sizeable; we have the option to go quite in-depth, breaking down rough estimates and generating circles based upon those numbers. For example, a circle of 60 pt might equate to X pygges of crop, or 5000 horses, or something along those lines. There is a lot of room for error, of course, and a lot of room for inconsistencies, and I may need to scrap the circle for some sort of bar graph or other graphical representation for the resources, but there are a lot of options!

Once we get the resources ironed out, we should be able to see what duchy is lacking in what resource, and then draw lines of trade based on those deficits, like so:



This is naturally unfinished, as you can see, and there is of course room for interpretation on these, since some of the resource categories are rather large. For example, Vardynn has pottery (artisan good), but may need to import cloth (also artisan good) from Jernais. But it'll at least give us an idea. And of course, we can further break the categories down into separate maps, if need be (i.e. an artisan trading map that breaks down who produces what major artisan good--pottery, cloth/clothing, jewelry, weaponry, etc.--and who trades what with whom). Of course, that's a future project.

My break-down for this project is something like this:

1) Determine resources in each province
2) Determine resource size in each province (may be exact numbers or simply comparisons [e.g. X of Aurora's resources are crop, 3X of Aurora's resources are horses])
3) Determine most affective graphical representation (circles, some sort of integrated bar graph; I should be able to create something like this without issue)
4) Determine natural trading patterns

Let me know your thoughts!
« Last Edit: 21 November 2011, 03:09:34 by Rayne (Alır) » Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #49 on: 21 November 2011, 04:46:18 »

Wow, this is getting complicated.  

Quote
My end goal is to eventually get a good idea of how the resources affect the economy of the province, and how the duchies within the province interact with one another economically. I feel like knowing the economy of the province may help uncover particularities in duchy relationships, lending some insights into politics and culture.
Hmm, that's true.  However, power was usually quite decentralised in a feudal society, so I doubt that trade will be conducted at the duchy level.  Also, if I remember correctly, real life medieval nobles mostly did not engage in trade themselves, thinking that it was beneath them.  Their wealth mostly came from taxation, I think.  One could still talk about how the duchies interact economically, but I think it would probably be more useful to look at smaller units, who are the ones doing the actual trading, like individual cities and smaller regions.  

Besides resources, trade routes are also quite important.  I'm guessing we'll get to that when it's determined who has what.  

Anyway, this map shows some of the locations of resources that are mentioned on the site, so it might be useful.  Here's a summary of what it shows for Vardynn:

Burning Stones: Heckra
Copper: Heckra, High Fores
Gold: Heckra, High Fores
Granite: Bolder, High Fores
Iron: Heckra
Marble: High Fores
Salt: Heath of Jernais, southern tip of Thysland
Silver: Heckra, High Fores

In addition, some other resources are also mentioned in tribal entries.  

Centoraurians:
- fish in Aerelian Lakes
- minerals (not specified) and silkworm in Efirhal
- rhodamine dyes in Esperoth
- herd breeding on the mainland (Aurora I guess)

Helcrani:
- livestock and wood in High Fores
- olives, grains, cotton, fruits, manufactured goods in Efirhal

Edit: Xazuran, which is used to make dyes, can apparently be found in the Heath of Jernais, near Heckra.  
« Last Edit: 21 November 2011, 05:14:23 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: 21 November 2011, 11:01:05 »

Quote
Wow, this is getting complicated.
Too much?  undecided Really, this all might just be an excuse for me to make pretty maps and diagrams.

Quote
However, power was usually quite decentralised in a feudal society, so I doubt that trade will be conducted at the duchy level.  Also, if I remember correctly, real life medieval nobles mostly did not engage in trade themselves, thinking that it was beneath them.  Their wealth mostly came from taxation, I think.  One could still talk about how the duchies interact economically, but I think it would probably be more useful to look at smaller units, who are the ones doing the actual trading, like individual cities and smaller regions.
A good point, Mina! However, I think that resources and trade greatly affected the way many duchies interacted with one another. With a resource-rich duchy like Ancryos, for example, we might expect a larger military for defense. And as the regions now are relatively integrated (I was envisioning a Council of Dukes/Duchesses of some sort [not be to confused with the Voldarian Council]--I would love to discuss this with you and get your thoughts!), votes and decisions may be heavily influenced by resources and the relationships of trade--after all, you're probably unlikely to make a political decision that angers your biggest trade ally.

As always, Mina, your research is astounding! It's nice to have the breakdown of what minerals, in particular, are where. I'm not sure how to approach salt--is this a water resources or a stone/metal resource? I'm not entirely sure how to categorize all these things, so I've tried to put together a list that mentions specifics so they can be discussed and moved/changed if need be. Here's the Resource List as it stands:

Gannilos
  • Water Resources: Fish
  • Animal Products: Wool, Cheese
  • Crop Goods: Wine, Jam

Milkenon
  • Artisan Goods: ??
  • Water Resources: Fish
  • Crop Goods: Olives, Cotton, Fruit, Grains, Rhodamine(?)
  • Animal Products: Silk (silkworm)

Jernais
  • Artisan Goods: Cloth
  • Animal Products: Meats, Cheese, Wool (Sheep, Goats, Teanish)
  • Crop Goods: Wheat, Grains, Cotton
  • Water Resources??: Salt
  • Metals/Stone: Xazuran

Ancyros
  • Metals/Stone: Burning Stones, Copper, Gold, Granite, Iron, Silver
  • Water Resources: Fish, Salt
  • Lumber

Aurora
  • Horses
  • Animal Products: Meats, Cheese, Wool, Leather (Cows, Sheep, Pig, Goat)
  • Crop Goods: Wheat, Grain
  • Water Resources: Fish, Shell Fish

Graeyerwınn
  • Artisan Goods: ??
  • Water Resources: Fish
  • Lumber

Thysland
  • Animal Products: Meats, Cheese, Leather, Wool (Cows, Sheep)
  • Water Resources: Fish, Salt
  • Crop Goods: ??

Duchy of the Eastern Mountains
  • Metals/Stone: Copper, Gold, Granite, Marble, Silver
  • Animal Products: Leather, Meat, Cheese, Wool (Cows, Sheep, Goat, Pig)
  • Lumber

Bolder Stycal
  • Artisan Goods: Woven Cloth, Candle, Knowledge?
  • Metals/Stone: Granite
  • Animal Products: Honey

Thaelon Stycal
  • ??
  • ??

While Lumber is a resource in both stycals, it feels almost irreverent to put it down as a resource--so i have left it out. Perhaps I'm being silly...  buck

In any case, let me know your thoughts. Is there anything more we should add to the list?
« Last Edit: 21 November 2011, 11:34:14 by Rayne (Alır) » Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #51 on: 21 November 2011, 15:02:50 »

Quote
And as the regions now are relatively integrated (I was envisioning a Council of Dukes/Duchesses of some sort [not be to confused with the Voldarian Council]
Hmm, what's the political structure of the province like?  Perhaps I've made some incorrect assumptions. 

Quote
I'm not sure how to approach salt--is this a water resources or a stone/metal resource?
I guess it could be both.  Besides evaporating seawater, salt is sometimes also obtained by mining.

Another way to classify resources might be by their uses.  Food, building materials, other basic necessities, luxuries, etc. 

Quote
While Lumber is a resource in both stycals, it feels almost irreverent to put it down as a resource--so i have left it out. Perhaps I'm being silly... 
Well, they have a lot of trees, but I doubt that the Elves allow them to be cut down, so they probably don't count as a resource. 

Most of the territories probably produce enough crops and animal products for their own use, except Milkenon, because Milkengrad is a huge city and it has relatively little land.  They probably still produce some though, just not enough.  It would be useful to look at which part of each territory produces what too.  For example, Voldar probably doesn't produce enough crops and animal products for its own use either, but it could probably get them from elsewhere in the duchy, eg. shipping them over from Paragonj. 
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« Reply #52 on: 22 November 2011, 04:16:40 »

@Rayne: Don't forget that we have update next weekend - I hope that the Isle of Churican can finally make it on site :) - BTW: If there's a good place to put the heron pic somewhere in an entry (even though we don't have the heron entry itself), I'm also happily listening to suggestions!

Oh, and we still need more intros/teasers for the the fan fiction chapters! Don't need them all immediately, but if I have the intros I can add further parts to the site.

Duchy names: I personally like Mina's suggestion "Milkennon" best! As you say yourself, Rayne: The "-ia" ending is a bit conventional,, and that we we also have the root and something more original :) - ... Ok, read the rest of the thread and saw that you also go for "Milkenon", Rayne, just you prefer the one "n" version - that's fine with me as well. Looks like we all agree that this one's the best choice!  thumbup

@Valan: Duchy of the Fores - well, unfortunately the territory comprises indeed only the High Fores, and not the Low Fores. Don't ask me why that is the case - it was just drawn that way a while ago... lol So that name would be a bit of a problem.

Now as for the Fores Duchy: Would love to make it dwarven dominated duchy, which might also reflect in the name. For one it's the High Fores duchy, a large mountain range, and as it's the High part of the Fores, the dwarves for sure mainly live there. The dwarves of that region are the Thrumgolz dwarves, and the entry describes them as follows:

Quote
For dwarves, the Pickhands are both more relaxed and more independent than the typical clan. They trade fairly freely with humans ... They are more liberal in their religious beliefs and might even exhibit tolerance to a human's faith in more than one deity ... [Various mentionings of trade locations] ... The dwarves of the Thrumgolz clan helped the Helcrani (in) those early days and taught them - not without a reward- the art of mining. The dwarves wanted to establish a buffer-state which would repel the elven attacks from the east as well as a partner for trading goods. In the face of the Helcrani they found more, as many Thrumgolz dwarves lived among the humans in their villages.

So, with other words: These dwarves mingled better with humans that others, and that could fit in nicely with the design of our duchy, which consists of, say, 60-70% dwarven territory. That's why I would suggest a name inspired by Thergerim Thaal words... let's see: How about "Thrumthyrm" (thyrm=unified, "thrum"=pick, from Thrumgolz) or maybe "Thrumethyrm" if we just put in an "e", which looks nice in there. I like the alliteration of "th-th", gives it all a playful touch. Just a suggestion, though, which would make sense in my point of view.

Resources, just a note: Lumber - yes, there will be many more woods, even larger ones, that's for sure, even though you don't see them on the main map as of yet.
« Last Edit: 22 November 2011, 04:22:55 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged



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« Reply #53 on: 22 November 2011, 08:44:23 »

Love that suggestion, Art!   Or elide it for those quick human tongues:  'Thrummyn'.       If we look at other areas, such as Manthria, we realize that not all names have to be 'The Duchy of X' or 'X Duchy', too, so it could be 'The Thrummyn Fief'  or, which I love even better, "Fief Thrummyn'....

('Freehold of Fores' has lovely alliteration as well... :) )
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« Reply #54 on: 22 November 2011, 09:21:33 »

Even though the duchy doesn't have the high and low fores in it doesn't exclude the name 'Duchy of the Fores' as a possibility in my opinion ... or any other name that includes Fores.
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« Reply #55 on: 22 November 2011, 12:44:33 »

NAMES

Now that you mention it, Artimidor--and as I look at it--I do like two 'n's better than one...

As with all countries influenced by different languages, I am sure our duchy of the High Fores will have a cornucopia of names--which is wonderful! I think it adds wonderful depth and texture to the region. I would like to keep all in the record, but for development purposes, it would best to choose one name, preferably the one we think to be in greatest use.

The choices thus far are:

  • Duchy of the Eastern Mountains
  • Duchy of the Fores
  • Fief Thrummyn

Which do people prefer? Please let me know your preference, if your have one, or your comments/ideas!


RESOURCES -> CITIES

Ah, Mina, now you're getting into the good stuff! --what do people need/want and what do they already have available?

We know, for example, the most every duchy, besides Aurora, wants horses. Aurora, in turn, may not have many metals/stone. It might get these from Ancryos, which perhaps doesn't have enough cloth, which it would probably get from Jernais, and so on and so forth.

I have been cogitating on your statement regarding trade, and you bring up a good point. Before we move to the duchy level, perhaps we should designate towns or villages of note and determine trading routes and patterns. So before we continue with economy-related things, I suppose we should decide where the cities should be.

[I apologize for dragging you from topic to topic, Mina. Thank you for being so patient!]

Now that we have rough duchy borders, and knowing that each duchy needs its share of prominent cities and towns... (and I put this in caps, bold, and bright yellow so many will see and share their opinions and ideas, for I so love a gallimaufry of voices)... ::clears her throat::


WHAT CITIES SHOULD WE HAVE IN EACH DUCHY?

I would like to have at least three major cities/towns in each duchy, if possible, with one designated as the seat of duchy power. I think it would be good to identify--

Name:
Location:
Resources:

Perhaps in Ancyros...

Name: Aberwald
Location: Tip of land jutting into the Ancytharian Sea just south of the Twinnean Peaks
Resources: Metals, stone or any resources that might be here [curiously, none are assigned on Fox's map...], and fish in the wild and terrible sea.

Name: Bosinwais
Location: At the foot of Heckra, just north of the Goltherlon Forest
Resources: Burningstones, Iron, Copper, etc. in Heckra and  any lumber on the outskirts of Goltherlon

Name: Vesolda
Location: On the Ancytharian Sea, just north of where the Aelchraem River comes down from the High Forest and meets the sea.
Resources: Fish in the Anytharian and Aelchraem (possibly shellfish, too!), and any items that may come from trade with the Enthronian city of Elsreth.

[Edited portion below]

Name: Emja
Location: Just south of Ephirn's Lake
Resources: Fish from Ephirn's Lake, and possibly some trading from Enthronia.






And for Gannilos...

Name: Broderınn
Location: South-east of the isle of Churican
Resources: Mainly wool, cheese, and other animal producst from around the isle, as well as fish

Name: Eferthea
Location: South-west of the isle of Churican
Resources: Jams and jellies, as well as fish

Name: Myrmira
Location: North-east of the isle of Churican, just across from the Peninsula of Paragonj.
Resources: Jam, jellies, some animal products and some fish.

Name: Jacoron
Location: Western side of Witchking Isle
Resources: Fish, TBD?




Still working on names/write-ups:

Thysland






Eastern Mountains/Fores/Thrummyn






Milkennon






Aurora






Graeyerwynn

« Last Edit: 22 November 2011, 14:14:52 by Rayne (Alır) » Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #56 on: 22 November 2011, 15:41:33 »

Hmm, what do you mean by major city?  Large and important cities probably aren't that common.  On the other hand, if you're just listing cities that are noteworthy in some way, that might work.  

As for being seats of power, that's a little tricky.  I read it quite a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, feudalism, or at least the European version of it, was mostly a rural system, with the seats of power being the lords' castles and manors.  Of course, it's not unknown for cities to grow up around castles either, and some cities seem to have been major power centers from the beginning.  In any case, it's possible that some of the dukes might be based in rural estates instead of cities, perhaps in places like Ancyros and Gannilos, which currently don't seem to have very powerful cities.  

In the High Fores, perhaps the Helcrani "villages", or at least some of them, might actually be cities.  Sostra in particular is mentioned as having a famous market.  Further to the south, perhaps there are dwarven towns in the mountains as well.  

As for Milkennon, I'm not sure it needs another major city.  Well, it could work, but I think it's always going to be overshadowed by Milkengrad.  

Quote
Name: Emja
Location: Just south of Ephirn's Lake
Resources: Fish from Ephirn's Lake, and possibly some trading from Enthronia.
Holm, in Nermeran, might be easier to reach from here than Enthronia, since it doesn't involve crossing any mountains.  On the other hand, Jernais seems to be situated along the same river as Holm, so it might be more convenient getting there from Jernais than from Emja.  

Perhaps Emja could be put on the western end of the lake instead.  It would still be connected to Aberwald and the Ancythrian Sea through Cylian River, and it'll be closer to Vandrina River.  We could have a trade route going along Cylian River and Ephirn's Lake, then through Emja to Vandrina River, where it could go north to Holm and other parts of Nermeran, or west to the rest of Vardynn.  

Edit: There's a very old trade routes map here.  It might provide some ideas. 

I decided to make one too.  The trade routes are in red, and the arrows basically mean that they go to places outside the province, or to nonhuman areas (Bolder, Goltherlon, Dwarven parts of the High Fores).  The green dots are existing settlements, including the five Helcrani ones in the High Fores, which aren't on the main map but are shown in the Helcrani entry.  The blue dots are new cities, including most of the ones you suggested, although I've moved some of them around a little. 

I've only shown possible land routes leading into Xaramon through the Aerelian Lakes area, but it's probably possible to travel over the water too.  We can decide what the main routes are when the area is more developed. 

I'm not sure how to handle the routes in Helcrah.  Sostra (the middle settlement) is mentioned as having a famous market, so I had the trade routes converge on it, but maybe there's a better way. 

Jernais looks odd; there doesn't seem to be any reason for a major city to be there.  Perhaps it's where one of the Vandrina River's tributaries joins up with it.  That might provide some justification for Jernais's existence. 

I don't know whether the Elves of the Thaelon trade with outsiders or allow them to travel through it, so I didn't have anything going through it.  What do you think? 

Gannilos seems to be rather peripheral, at least where trade is concerned.  Judging by your description of Churican, I guess that's not a problem? 
« Last Edit: 22 November 2011, 23:51:16 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: 23 November 2011, 05:37:42 »

A note from here: I've started with drawing the map and while it still takes a while to get the ocean ripples right and the coastal borders - one thing is for sure: Details will be added first to the islands. So if you have specific ideas what you want to have on those - trees, hills, mountains, settlements (size!), rocks, heath etc. please try to specify this roughly if you have concrete ideas. Some things can still be changed around later, but the basic idea on what to put up should be clear. If there are no concrete ideas what to put where and there is no entry yet on a location I try to think up something myself :)
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« Reply #58 on: 23 November 2011, 14:39:21 »

Large cities. Hm, yes, you're right, Mina. Large cities would not be common, though I'm beginning to wonder now about size.

If 2 houses on the map equates to roughly 50,000 people (as in the case of Ximax), then 1 house would seem to equate to roughly 25,000 people--thought some one-house cities equate to as few as 8,000. So perhaps, for these cities we're adding, we're talking about a population of 5,000 people? Does this sound reasonable?

As you state, Mina, I had imagined cities springing around castle. Though I suppose, most importantly, I was thinking about the military power in the region. That is, assuming that duchies have any sort of military... which may be unlikely for some... I think I may be digressing.

I'm tempted to agree with you on Milkennon. Milkengrad, with its population and history, is perhaps enough for this rather diminutive duchy.

Moving Emja to the west of Erphirn's Lake rather than the south looks sound--I agree with your suggestion!

Jernais is a bit peculiar. Though of course, if we can interpret the city to be on the Vandrina River, then your suggestion is sound. I imagined a few natural springs around Jernais, so perhaps one flows into Vandrina. Also, as Thaelon is just across the River, there may be some natural forests in that area, and as I imagine the Heath to be a bit speckled with copses, this might also support the city's wood production trade. And in addition, there is the trade route along the river.

As the elves of Thaelon are mythical, I think your decision regarding trade is good. Even the Aellenrhim in Boldar will probably keep trading to a minimum. The same with the Golgnomes, who I believe are rather reclusive.

(It's been so long since I wrote many of these entries that I've quite forgotten what I wrote!)

Tangential trade with Gannilos should be fine; I imagine them to be rather cut off.

Regarding Helcrah... I think your idea is good. I think we might be able to assume that, given its famous market, Sostra has grown in population while the other Helcrani settlements have remained at a relatively constant population.

I like the trade map! Looking at it, though, I'm thinking it might be good to move the settlement on Paragonj a little south so that it's across from the one on Churican. This was my overlook--I think having the two across the way from one another makes the most sense.



I'm so happy to hear about the map, Artimidor! I haven't much to suggest. As Churican has an entry and I have no plans for Witchking Isle... I wouldn't mind seeing something on Paragonj, near the tip. It would be nice if there were something rather valuable here--a gem mine hidden in a mountain--but perhaps that's some cliche trope knocking. I think I shall be happy with whatever you decide for Vardynn numerous isles.

Speaking of which, did we ever name the three remaining isles?
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« Reply #59 on: 23 November 2011, 15:30:01 »

Quote
If 2 houses on the map equates to roughly 50,000 people (as in the case of Ximax), then 1 house would seem to equate to roughly 25,000 people--thought some one-house cities equate to as few as 8,000. So perhaps, for these cities we're adding, we're talking about a population of 5,000 people? Does this sound reasonable?
I generally consider the number of houses to be a suggestion of how important/influential a city is, rather than a specific number of people.  I did give Caelum twice the population of Ximax, after all, even though it has only one house on the map.  And Alvang has one house too, but it's pretty much uninhabited. 

Quote
As you state, Mina, I had imagined cities springing around castle. Though I suppose, most importantly, I was thinking about the military power in the region. That is, assuming that duchies have any sort of military... which may be unlikely for some... I think I may be digressing.
I don't know if it's the case in Santharia, but apparently standing armies were not very common in medieval Europe, and armies were raised when they were needed.  I think the duchies are probably all capable of raising armies if they were expecting to have to fight a war, though the number of troops might vary quite a bit. 
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