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Author Topic: Vardınn Master Plan Discussion  (Read 39076 times)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #75 on: 25 November 2011, 15:55:36 »

@Judy: Feel free to try your hand on editing/updating/drawing symbols if you like - important is that they match the style as good as possible. Have you got the Map Elements PSD file with the icons I currently use? Icons need to be done on a transparent layer at any rate, so that they can be moved in front of any background.

Textures are also quite crucial for maps like this. I'll have to look for more. There are great sites out there which offer textures, and the ones we can use the best are continuous one - those which can be used pretty much as tiles to form one hole. Should someone know/find good texture sites with grasses, earth, rocks and stuff, please let me know.

@Rayne: Yeah, things can be moved and added easily (I've neatly arranged the layers for convenient editing!), and I'll do so to match the trade routes of course. Just wanted to get the look and feel for Churican across for now - and there's still some work to do of course.

The best way is always to have it layed out - and I'd say we'll do it that way with the duchies later: I'll post the duchies parts of the monster map for those who have concrete ideas and let them place things, then I'll just put the map together.

The map of course is representative, working with elements merely as symbols, yup.
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« Reply #76 on: 25 November 2011, 18:58:18 »

Some awesome 'free seamless ground textures' available here:

http://www.spiralgraphics.biz/packs/terrain_lush/index.htm (very professional look, designed for fantasy maps)

http://www.gamemakergames.com/forum/index.php?topic=34848.0 (over a hundred free seamless textures from a generator, packaged and zipped)

http://designm.ag/resources/dirt-ground-textures/ (photorealistic or photo, not seamless but great for natural reference and inspiration)  - dry cracked ground, pretty pretty please!



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« Reply #77 on: 25 November 2011, 19:00:31 »

Here's a rough of the Carmalad area, done with four of the free textures from the second link.  As you can see, once de-saturated, and blended with feathering and opacity tricks, they make rather nice landscape...



Excuse the crude coastlines - I have to get a tip from Artimidor as how to do water and coast edges successfully - but they aren't the point of this little exercise.

Working on some icons in Adobe now....
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« Reply #78 on: 25 November 2011, 19:11:31 »

Very cool Judy, great resources you've dug up there! :D

It's great to play around with such textures - if it one doesn't fit entirely you can adjust the size (ideally make it smaller, so that e.g. large stones become smaller), go for another brightness/intensity, make it half transparent while putting it on top of another texture, make a soft (feather) edge of a lot of pixels etc. That way and can give it all an entirely new look. Having these available is very helpful!
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« Reply #79 on: 25 November 2011, 19:53:19 »

Very interesting.  They should probably be stickied somewhere. 
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« Reply #80 on: 25 November 2011, 22:48:06 »

I guess the work on the Vardınn map is also a good opportunity to prepare map elements better, allow them to download along with the source file of the finished map (I'll make sure to organize it much better now than I did with Manthria), and add updates to the current tutorials on site plus links to textures. Because if you have the whole source of a map, the elements and a proper tutorial, and also links to good textures I guess you are capable of doing great maps yourself with a bit of exercise :)
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Rayne (Alır)
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« Reply #81 on: 26 November 2011, 00:00:34 »

Thank you for your input and suggestions, Mina! I have updated the names to the names you have suggested!



1) Vairntin
2) Phaeverton
3) Caeyserton
4) Aemyrton
5) Erdefra
6) Isgar
7) Pelasgarth
8) Tyrcuron
9) Argammon
10) Deraheim
11) Herstengrad
               
12) Arlemaroth
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
21) Emja
22) Aemyressa


I think it would be all right if both city 6 (Isgar) and city 22 (Aemyressa) were there. Isgar is on the coast, so would be ideal for traders gooing along to coast and possibly to Narvos or other cities along the coast. Meanwhile, Aemyressa would be ideal for trades going by land, possibly to Nyermersys, but certainly Weyring and Astran.

After we confirm the names, maybe we should figure out was cities export what...?
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« Reply #82 on: 26 November 2011, 04:55:24 »

It just occurred to me that the point where the routes from Voldar and Cemphiria meet up at the Vandrina river might be a decent place for a city, if it's not too late to add any more.  Jernais does feel a little empty compared to the other duchies.  

I don't know about the others, but at the moment I have no further comments regarding the names.  

As for exports and trade, I can think of a few.  

Bosinwais (19) looks like it might be in the general area where xazuran is produced.  I guess it might be where xazuran merchants get it from.  Jernais might be where some of them trade the xazuran away for other things; I imagine merchants trading along the Milkengrad/Voldar-Enthronia route might stop here and pick up some xazuran.  Jernais might also be close enough to the salt-producing areas to be where people bring the salt to sell.  

Edit: What I said about xazuran might apply to burning stones too. 

Deraheim (10) probably gets salt too.  I put it there because it was roughly where the resources map showed the salt to be located.  Might also be a place for trading with the Sanhorrhim just across the border.  

Most of the Helcrani towns at the High Fores probably have metals, with Sostra (15) being the main market.  Menegula (16) might have some trade with the Goltherlon gnomes.  Well, I don't know if it's close enough, but it looks like merchants will have to go through it to get to the Goltherlon forest anyway.  
« Last Edit: 26 November 2011, 05:21:39 by Mina » Logged

Rayne (Alır)
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« Reply #83 on: 26 November 2011, 09:52:02 »

CITY NAMES

Of course we can add more cities! Looking at the map, I’m not sure if we shouldn’t add a city near the bridge that crosses over from the Thaelon. In the original trade routes map you shared, there was a route going through the break in the Thaelon, between the Aviariáth/Aelle'lón and the Ó'phyría, so I have added one, as well as a branch of it going between the Aviariáth and Aelle'lón to Vontron.

Between this and your suggestion, we get the following:



This also leads to the need for two more city names. I’m not good with the Centaurorian city naming.

1) Vairntin
2) Phaeverton
3) Caeyserton
4) Aemyrton
5) Erdefra
6) Isgar
7) Pelasgarth
8) Tyrcuron
9) Argammon
10) Deraheim
11) Herstengrad
12) Arlemaroth
               
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
21) Emja
22) Aemyressa
23) Ritia
24) Lenra


RESOURCES

In regards to resources, I would like to develop not only the resources, but the abundance or paucity of the resources, in addition to deficits (that represent actual needs for the community). I was hoping to do this in a way that simplifies our job while accounting for a certain amount of complexity. The only way I could think to do this was attributing almost game-like attributes to the resources, as follows:

Plentiful: +3
Significant: +2
Moderate: +1
Limited: 0
Scant: -1
Insufficient: -2
Deficient: -3

If anyone has a better idea of how to do this, let me know! The below is the beginnings of that. I’ve also incorporated the resources you mentioned, Mina, though I’m not necessarily sure how to break up all the metals/stones amoung the Eastern Mountains Province--or if we should. And we can, of course, vary the abundance/paucity of these resources depending on what cities are near what mines.

In terms of Goltherlon and the Golgnomes, the tribe entry only mentions trading dyes and cloths to the Caltharians. Nothing is mentioned regarding the Helcrani on the other side of the Mountains, though that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't something traded between these two cultures.

Gannilos
Vairntin (1)
  • Resources: Fishing (+2), Lumber (0), Crop Goods (0), Animal Products (+1), [...]
Phaeverton (2)
  • Resources: Fishing (+2), Lumber (-1), Crop Goods (0), Animal Products (+2), [...]
Caeyserton (3)
Aemyrton (4)

Graeyerwynn
Erdefra (5)
Isgar (6)
Aemyressa (22)
Accam
Westron
Vontron

Milkennon
Milkengrad

Thysland
Tyrcuron (8)
Argammon (9)
Deraheim (10)
  • Resources: Salt (), [...]
Herstengrad (11)
Thyslan

Aurora
Pelasgarth (7)
Salsair

Jernais
Ritia (23)
Lenra (24)
Cemphiria
Jernais
  • Resources: Salt (), [...]

Eastern Mountains
Arlemaroth (12)
Ahaiwana (13)
Heleroth (14)
Sostra (15)
  • Resources: Copper (), Gold (), Granite (), Marble (), Silver (), [...]
Menegula (16)
  • Resources: Copper (), Gold (), Granite (), Marble (), Silver (), [...]
Codomma (17)

Ancyros
Vesolda (18)
Bosinwais (19)
  • Resources: Xazuran (), Burningstones (), [...]
Aberwald (20)
Emja (21)
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« Reply #84 on: 26 November 2011, 12:25:14 »

Aren't volcaneos in our world meant to provide rich lands for crops? If that is the case, maybe one or more of those settlements (13 or 14) near the base of the volcano could be crop growers? That is if they aren't already.
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« Reply #85 on: 26 November 2011, 12:33:57 »

Quote
In the original trade routes map you shared, there was a route going through the break in the Thaelon, between the Aviariáth/Aelle'lón and the Ó'phyría, so I have added one, as well as a branch of it going between the Aviariáth and Aelle'lón to Vontron.
Well, if you think the Elves allow movement through the area, I guess that would be fine.  I also think you probably meant something other than Vontron, which isn't even in the same province. 

Quote
This also leads to the need for two more city names. I’m not good with the Centaurorian city naming.
Those are probably Caltharian or Erpheronian cities, so no need to worry about Centoraurian names.  I am not sure how to judge names in those two langauges, however.  There aren't that many existing examples to compare them to. 

Regarding the resource attributes, I guess a 0 means more or less sufficient for their own use, but not enough to really be traded away?  I also guess that when you list resources for a city, it's mostly representing the resources of its hinterland, so eg. what's listed for Varintin (1) might represent what's produced and/or needed for the whole island? 

Looking at the list, it seems like Aurora has very few cities, yet the area doesn't look empty at all on the map.  I guess most of the cities are just outside Aurora's borders.  Perhaps Herstengrad (11) could be moved eastward a little so it's in Aurora? 

I wonder if all five of the Helcrani settlements in the High Fores have to be listed.  Well, I guess there might be some variation in the resources each one has, but they could probably be treated as a single region.  Since there are Dwarves in the duchy, maybe there should be Dwarven towns as well.  Perhaps just one, where they trade with Humans?  The Thrumgolz entry mentions that they trade ores to the Helcrani for medicines and grain. 
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« Reply #86 on: 26 November 2011, 13:01:02 »

Hey Dek! I'm always glad to see you enter the discussion. I hope NaNoWriMo is going well! I like your suggestion, though more than likely the settlements on the mountains probably wouldn't experience the kind of fertility lent by the volcano as much as the Heath of Jernais; those resources would probably be funneled into our two newest cities (23 and 24, which I think I need to rename...) and the Heath of Jernais. I will make the changes to reflect your suggestion! I assume that the Crop Goods produced would be +2, because despite the fertility, there may be limited space in the heath (given is moorish qualities)


Quote
Well, if you think the Elves allow movement through the area, I guess that would be fine.  I also think you probably meant something other than Vontron, which isn't even in the same province.  
Oops! Yes, I meant Voldar. Sorry about that! And I think that as long as humans aren't building settlements in the area and aren't journeying into the forests, it should be fine, though I wouldn't mind Artimidor coming to take a look.


Yes, sorry, let me explain the system a little better:
0 is equilibrium, meaning that you're basically producing enough of resources X in and around the city to sustain the needs of your population. +1 means that you're actually exceeding the needs of your population, and that's therefore a resource that you can put out on the open market for trade, if so you desire. -1 means that you may produce a certain resource, but not enough to meet the needs of your population. This is a resource you may be more apt to buy off the open market.

Does this make sense?


In terms of moving cities--we can definitely move them, but let's make sure we move them for the right reasons. Some duchies will have more or less cities, and in some cases that an indication of certain trade route landmarks we've missed and should add. However, moving a city because one duchy doesn't have as many cities as another might not be the most sound reasoning. Afterall, it's the economies that should decide where the cities go, not the politics! Moving Herstengard eastward would be it relatively close to Salsair, and it makes sense, from an economic point of view, for cities to be relatively spread out.


We could make Sostra the one town where the Thrumgolz trade with humans. I don't mind getting rid of some of the settlements if you think we should, but I don't mind them all being there. I'm tempted to keep them and designate certain mining resources to each.


If these are Caltharian and Erpheronian cities in Jernais, I have less issues. Suggested names are below. Please let me know what you think!


NEW CITIES




1) Vairntin
2) Phaeverton
3) Caeyserton
4) Aemyrton
5) Erdefra
6) Isgar
7) Pelasgarth
8) Tyrcuron
9) Argammon
10) Deraheim
11) Herstengrad
12) Arlemaroth
             
13) Ahaiwana
14) Heleroth
15) Sostra
16) Menegula
17) Codomma
18) Vesolda
19) Bosinwais
20) Aberwald
21) Emja
22) Aemyressa
23) Cardos
24) Liosa


RESOURCES

Plentiful: +3
Significant: +2
Moderate: +1
Limited: 0
Scant: -1
Insufficient: -2
Deficient: -3


Gannilos
Vairntin (1)
  • Resources: Fishing (+2), Lumber (0), Crop Goods (0), Animal Products (+1), [...]
Phaeverton (2)
  • Resources: Fishing (+2), Lumber (-1), Crop Goods (0), Animal Products (+2), [...]
Caeyserton (3)
Aemyrton (4)

Graeyerwynn
Erdefra (5)
Isgar (6)
Aemyressa (22)
Accam
Westron
Vontron

Milkennon
Milkengrad

Thysland
Tyrcuron (8)
Argammon (9)
Deraheim (10)
  • Resources: Salt (), [...]
Herstengrad (11)
Thyslan

Aurora
Pelasgarth (7)
Salsair

Jernais
Cardos (23)
  • Resources: Crop Goods (+2), [...]
Liosa (24)
  • Resources: Crop Goods (+2), [...]
Cemphiria
Jernais
  • Resources: Salt (), Crop Goods (+2), [...]

Eastern Mountains
Arlemaroth (12)
Ahaiwana (13)
Heleroth (14)
Sostra (15)
  • Resources: Copper (), Gold (), Granite (), Marble (), Silver (), [...]
Menegula (16)
  • Resources: Copper (), Gold (), Granite (), Marble (), Silver (), [...]
Codomma (17)

Ancyros
Vesolda (18)
Bosinwais (19)
  • Resources: Xazuran (), Burningstones (), [...]
Aberwald (20)
Emja (21)
« Last Edit: 26 November 2011, 13:06:23 by Rayne (Alır) » Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #87 on: 26 November 2011, 14:17:00 »

Quote
Oops! Yes, I meant Voldar. Sorry about that! And I think that as long as humans aren't building settlements in the area and aren't journeying into the forests, it should be fine, though I wouldn't mind Artimidor coming to take a look.
It looks like a pretty long distance to travel without settlements of any sort though.  I don't know enough to tell if it's feasible. 

Quote
Does this make sense?
Yes, thanks.  Hmm, let me think about this...

Quote
In terms of moving cities--we can definitely move them, but let's make sure we move them for the right reasons. Some duchies will have more or less cities, and in some cases that an indication of certain trade route landmarks we've missed and should add. However, moving a city because one duchy doesn't have as many cities as another might not be the most sound reasoning. Afterall, it's the economies that should decide where the cities go, not the politics! Moving Herstengard eastward would be it relatively close to Salsair, and it makes sense, from an economic point of view, for cities to be relatively spread out.
Fair enough, though I wasn't suggesting that it be moved that far.  It is, if I'm not mistaken, already quite close to the border.  In any case, like I said earlier, the current arrangement of the cities seem fine. 

Quote
We could make Sostra the one town where the Thrumgolz trade with humans.
I was actually suggesting a Thrumgolz town where the Humans are allowed to go and trade in, although I guess this would work too. 

Quote
I don't mind getting rid of some of the settlements if you think we should, but I don't mind them all being there. I'm tempted to keep them and designate certain mining resources to each.
I don't mean getting rid of them, just treating them as a single unit, since their resources are probably quite similar.  But listing their resources separately is fine too.  It might make the distribution of resources in the region clearer. 

Ahaiwana (13) looks pretty close to the volcano.  Perhaps it has burning stones? 
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« Reply #88 on: 27 November 2011, 10:32:46 »

I moved Herstengrad a smidge east. I also added a trade route around Heckra to Aurora. I thought it best to try to integrate the resources and the new cities, so the list below represents the new cities we have (as numbers), the old cities that were already there (letters), and resources listed under each. We’ll need to begin listing resources for each city (including name and abundance value).

Plentiful: +3
Significant: +2
Moderate: +1
Limited: 0
Scant: -1
Insufficient: -2
Deficient: -3




1) Vairntin
  • Fishing (+2)
  • Lumber (0)
  • Crop Goods (0)
  • Animal Products (+1)
  • [...]
2) Phaeverton
  • Fishing (+2)
  • Lumber (-1)
  • Crop Goods (0)
  • Animal Products (+2)
  • [...]
3) Caeyserton
  • [...]
4) Aemyrton
  • [...]
5) Erdefra
  • [...]
6) Isgar
  • [...]
7) Pelasgarth
  • [...]
8) Tyrcuron
  • [...]
9) Argammon
  • [...]
10) Deraheim
  • Salt ()
  • [...]
11) Herstengrad
  • [...]
12) Arlemaroth
  • [...]
               
13) Ahaiwana
  • Burningstones ()
  • [...]
14) Heleroth
  • [...]
15) Sostra
  • Copper ()
  • Gold ()
  • Granite ()
  • Marble ()
  • Silver ()
  • [...]
16) Menegula
  • Copper ()
  • Gold ()
  • Granite ()
  • Marble ()
  • Silver ()
  • [...]
17) Codomma
  • [...]
18) Vesolda
  • [...]
19) Bosinwais
  • [...]
20) Aberwald
  • [...]
21) Emja
  • [...]
22) Aemyressa
  • [...]
23) Cardos
  • [...]
24) Liosa
  • [...]
               
A) Thyslan
  • [...]
B) Milkengrad
  • [...]
C)Accam
  • [...]
D) Westron
  • [...]
E) Voldar
  • [...]
F) Cemphiria
  • [...]
G) Salsair
  • [...]
H) Jernais
  • [...]
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« Reply #89 on: 27 November 2011, 22:54:49 »

Hmm...

Milkengrad has cotton and silkworms, but it also produces cloth, which probably consumes those.  I'm going to guess that very little, if any, raw cotton or silk is exported, and most is used for cloth production, so perhaps 0 on cotton and silk.  Cloth might be higher, I guess, but I'm not sure how much.  Olives, grains, and fruits were also listed.  Should different types of crops be listed?  I would expect that some of these might be exported, but overall, Milkengrad probably imports more foodstuff that it exports, perhaps -1 or so.  Likewise for fish.  Armouries, shipyards, and pottery manufactories were also mentioned, so plenty of wood and minerals needed I guess.  Also, Esperoth has dyes, specifically rhodamines, but I haven't found out much about them except that they are apparently used for lasers.   huh

Jernais I mentioned might have some salt, perhaps +1 or so.  It apparently has tree farms, but import lumber from further away too, so perhaps -1 for lumber, and maybe +1 or so for wood products?  They apparently harvest silk from the Silkel Trees of the Thaelon, but it seems most of it is used instead of being sold.  They also import fabrics, dye them, and I guess export them after that.  How should that be listed? 

Bosinwais (19) probably has xazuran and burning stones.  Both seem to be relatively rare resources, so even if Bosinwais doesn't produce much of them, it would probably still be a large portion of what's available in Santharia.  Don't know if this means it automatically qualifies for +3 or if the actual quantity is more important. 

Salsair probably has lots of horses, maybe +2 or +3?  And maybe +1 or +2 salt for Deraheim (10)?  Also, city D should be spelt "Westhron". Can't really think of anything else at the moment. 

What happens when a city's hinterland doesn't match up with the political boundaries?  For example, assuming there are no political restrictions against it, I would expect Milkengrad and maybe Thyslan to get some of their food more or less directly from the parts of the Aurora Fields closer to them, which is in a different duchy.  Would this be counted as food they have, or food they need to import? 
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